cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Joker86 on January 08, 2011, 12:18:33 am
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Hi there!
Although I am not really happy about the new patch it's still better than it was before. Only some minor tweaks need to be done. I will concentrate on nerfs now, as buffs never are that urgent :wink:
So now let's see:
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- Lance of compensation:
(Long Great Lance)
5387
weight 5
requirement 9
spd rtng 55
weapon length 382
swing damage 0, cut
thrust damage 24 pierce
Couchable
Penalty with Shield
I think this item should simply be removed somehow. Set its difficulty to 40 first, and after a week or two, where every owner had time to sell it, simply remove the item. Due to the insane model lenght there is no other solution, as it is simply inacceptable that you can kill pikemen with this who are aware of you!
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- Morningstar
3978
weight 3.8
requirement 13
spd rtng 92
weapon length 82
swing damage 38, pierce
thrust damage 0 pierce
Crushtrhough
Unbalanced
I think the crushthrough in combination with the rather high speed is IMBA. Solutions would be to lower the speed or remove the crushthrough. I would tend to latter. This would also justify the really low price!
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- Maul
- Studded Warclub
- Mallet
- Bar Mace
- Great Maul
- Long Maul
You can already guess what I am aiming at: maybe the crushthrough is balanced on Native servers, but as you can increase you strength and WPF to a high level in cRPG, even with the lvl30 softcap, those weapons become unbalanced, as you can run around with them and spam overheadswings everywhere. Yeah yeah yeah, I know it's soooooo easy to counter... in theory!
I have an all AGI 1hd 100speed build, and even with this I can stop them only with about 50% chance. Due to the reach my other polearm build can stop them by about 60-70% chance. If you miss him, your hit bounces off their armour (and those guys have always best possible armour for this reason), you are dead. Simply dead. Because even if you lower the damage by blocking it, you will be knocked down most likely, which is equal to instant death. And no, neither kicking nor sidestepping works against such guys. They just run arund, facehug everyone and then kill everyone.
I think the amount of your frags should be equal to the amount of your effort. And overhead spamming is no effort (or skill) at all, but you can collect shitloads of frags with it, even if you get killed every round. So do something about it. Increase their speed, but lower their crushthrough chance to 25% at the most for the great maul. Make them just some knockdown-bluntweapons with high damage but lower speed. No "Oh! A shield! *switch to hammer*"-weapons. That's just lame. Get used to deal with a shield properly, instead of just using an imbalance to bypass the shield.
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Also I think the Long Poleaxe (Looney Toons Axe) is kind of "marginal"... to be honest I wouldn't mind if it disappeared ;)
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I will soon open a seperate thread for horses, as my suggestions will probably provoke a lot of emotional reactions ;)
Now what do you think?
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I agree about LoC.
But i'm making a Morning-star char. A good 2H easily counter me.
Due to my lack of agi to maximize power strike (8atm) , i have only 4 athletic and i'm too slow to make a good footwork (and i don't wear a buig armor for wpf penlities). I feel my char balanced.
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Problem with morningstar is that it's pierced, when you crush through your hitting them in their faces and pierce does x3 to the head making it very strong.
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I have been thinking about changing morningstar crush through flag to bonus against shields, as I suggested in Native beta long time ago.
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The piercing damage is the only advantage vs knockdown bar mace. And morningstar is shorter.
In addition bar mace should'nt be unbalanced due to a good weight repartition.
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I have been thinking about changing morningstar crush through flag to bonus against shields, as I suggested in Native beta long time ago.
That would be great I would use it on my 2h character as a substitute of the great bardiche.
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hey, crushthrough, oooonooo, what are u blocking with? Morningstar wont go thru heavy weapons, also dodging overhead IS easy
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hey, crushthrough, oooonooo, what are u blocking with? Morningstar wont go thru heavy weapons, also dodging overhead IS easy
I block with a shield or a long hafter blade.
And you can only dodge overheads if a complete noob is doing them. I would like to see how people try to dodge Burrick or Meliossandro. :rolleyes:
They just turn while swinging downwards. No chance to dodge. And I had 8 ATH with one of my characters...
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Overheads with blockcrush should be either outspammable at level 30 or blockable. This could done in numerous ways, decreasing weight of crushweapons, decreasing their damage, decreasing their range, change some of hammers to polearms for less range (or simply use polearm animation on overhead) and perhaps some other ways.
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You can already guess what I am aiming at: maybe the crushthrough is balanced on Native servers, but as you can increase you strength and WPF to a high level in cRPG, even with the lvl30 softcap, those weapons become unbalanced, as you can run around with them and spam overheadswings everywhere. Yeah yeah yeah, I know it's soooooo easy to counter... in theory!
In native everyone have same lvl and still this weapon is not OP.The only weapon that needs small fix is bar mace,make it slower.
And overhead spamming is no effort (or skill) at all
Simple whining.Maybe you want to remove blockcrushing totally?Take great maul and I will see how you will spamm.
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I block with a shield or a long hafter blade.
And you can only dodge overheads if a complete noob is doing them. I would like to see how people try to dodge Burrick or Meliossandro. :rolleyes:
They just turn while swinging downwards. No chance to dodge. And I had 8 ATH with one of my characters...
So it should be nerfed because few people very good at using them?
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Usually whoever uses such weapons, especially the great maul and the former boulder on a stick, has more frags than he would have without it. The weapon lowers actual fighting with footwork, blocking and other things to a minimum.
And in my 1st generation, when I was 2hd specced, I HAD a great maul. Using it was easy as pie. I want to nerf everything with which I was able to make easy kills.
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I want to nerf everything with which I was able to make easy kills.
You wanna nerf most of the polearms then.
You should play a game and notice just how many people use polearms and then how many of them simply spam and get kills without any effor.
Most of the polearms outclass everything else, longer reach, huge damage, crushes shields and are very fast.
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I didn't try the halberds yet, but you are probably right :?
My problem is: I probably AM a spammer (although I block, too). That's because I ALWAYS am. Since the brawls on the schoolyard I am convinced that speed beats strength. In any RPG game I always go on fast builds. I can't judge "spamming"-weapons properly, so I don't try, as I am biased. But I guess, if we compare
Elegant Poleaxe
12026
weight 2
requirement 16
spd rtng 93
weapon length 132
swing damage 40, cut
thrust damage 26 pierce
to
Danish Greatsword
12248
weight 2.5
requirement 14
spd rtng 93
weapon length 124
swing damage 40, cut
thrust damage 27 pierce
There is clearly something broken. For 2 req more you get 0.5 less weight, same speed, + 8 length and about the same damage. The better 2hd animations probably even this out a bit, but I think you are right. Longer weapons should have either less damage (= they are lighter) or less speed (= they are heavier). :?
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Well polearms are obviously OP and the vast majority of players know it.
The average game as 60-70% polearm users.
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2h animations have alot longer reach than polearm animations. You can easily add +20 to the sword in terms of comparing reach. Furthermore increased weight is more good than bad in my opinion. It does slow down the wielder abit, however it makes the weapon better against crush through, stun and it increases the own capability of the weapon to stun a blocker. You can't simple compare the stats of weapons of a different type.
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Since the brawls on the schoolyard I am convinced that speed beats strength. In any RPG game I always go on fast builds. I can't judge "spamming"-weapons properly, so I don't try, as I am biased.
I think this is also giving you a bias against STR-based weapons. While I support bringing the unrealistic LoC and Looney toons axe into line with something that could feasibly exist IRL, I don't support the change to the crush-through weapons. Currently, the only weapons that reliably crush through are the great maul and the boulder on a stick/long great maul, which are both very slow and unbalanced. Feinting with them is near impossible. Without their reliable crushthrough, they'd be fairly useless.
As far as the morningstar goes, it's relatively low weight makes it not crush through very often against good shields. It will crush through mediocre and poor shields with good powerstrike and a running start. However, the morningstar is penalized for this benefit by being slower and/or shorter than two-handed weapons without this capability. It also has the "unbalanced" flag, making it more difficult to feint. I think it is fine as it is.
EDIT: Edited to clarify "Unbalanced".
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Just a simple question. If you nerf "crushers", why would anybody use them?
Polearms are completely different story as you have different kinds of polearms and some of them very effective for cav. So polearm build can have basically the best weapon on horse back and poleaxe for melee that is heavy enought to stop crushers and can outspam most of the 2h.
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Just a simple question. If you nerf "crushers", why would anybody use them?
That's why I said to increase their speed and/or their damage. Make them deal brutal damage, 50b for the great maul, but lower or remove blockcrush.
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That's why I said to increase their speed and/or their damage. Make them deal brutal damage, 50b for the great maul, but lower or remove blockcrush.
That would make them suck. -1.
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Compared to before? Yes. That's intended.
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Pre-patch everybody was whining how much two hand was OP to every other class because of the lolstab, better range and (mysterious) faster animation.
The lol stab is gone and now everybody is whining that poleaxe is OP compared to 2H ??? WTF ??
Are you joking ??? what as changed except the lolstab ??? isn't that what the majority wanted ??
The whine will just never stop........
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Well polearms are obviously OP and the vast majority of players know it.
The average game as 60-70% polearm users.
Lots of people use polearms because there is a huge fucking variety of weapons and playstyles for 1 class of weapon. You can spear+shield, pole on horseback, use long 2h spears, use long ass glavies and ninja shit, use short blunt weapons, use axes, pikes for horses.
It's probably the most variety out of all of the weapon choices, and a lot of people that don't already have a build in mind go for it. It's a very safe choice for new people too. That is a large factor into why you see so many used.
Back in the day, it was clear some polearms were broken(everyone used a bec de corbin) now you see a pretty good distribution of pole weapons.
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Compared to before?
No. Compared to every other weapon in the game. They wouldn't really have a place.
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Lol before I thought that the looney toons axe was a fantasy weapon. It actually existed and I was like lolwut?! Who the hell used that?!
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That's why I said to increase their speed and/or their damage. Make them deal brutal damage, 50b for the great maul, but lower or remove blockcrush.
Blockrush is part of gameplay with it own tactic.I hope chadz will not do gameplay poorer because of such suggestions.
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Yah, blockcrush is fine imo, great big bloke with a great big maul, hes gonna absolutely rape your head if you try to block an overhead swing with a sword. You'd probably end up wearing your sword as a helmet.....
Its not unrealistic, and its not difficult to avoid in a 1v1 situation. You just gotta kill the instinct to block, and stab instead.....or use your feet.
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I think that crushthrough is inappropriate in a mod like CRPG and should probably be removed entirely. This is because in Native, the "classes" are static and are balanced around the ability to completely negate the defenses of the target. However, in CRPG that balance is skewed and it then becomes very easy to build a character that can inevitably walk through any opponent regardless of how they try and fend off the attack.
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I think that crushthrough is inappropriate in a mod like CRPG and should probably be removed entirely. This is because in Native, the "classes" are static and are balanced around the ability to completely negate the defenses of the target. However, in CRPG that balance is skewed and it then becomes very easy to build a character that can inevitably walk through any opponent regardless of how they try and fend off the attack.
If I can avoid it with a balanced character why can't you? Play to their weaknesses: distance, speed, where their swings will contact your blocks, and teamwork.
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Well polearms are obviously OP and the vast majority of players know it.
The average game as 60-70% polearm users.
Did you know that 68.2% of all statistics are made up on the spot?
Also, statistics show that people are happier naked!