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cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Grumbs on February 03, 2014, 12:08:50 am

Title: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: Grumbs on February 03, 2014, 12:08:50 am
Pretty much no requirements
One handers are very good in their own right without adding ranged as well

A good melee player has the best of both worlds. Great ranged, decent armour, good melee. How is this a balanced class?
Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: Latvian on February 03, 2014, 12:14:40 am
i am still waiting for xbow skill required to use them (some sort of powerdraw)
Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: owens on February 03, 2014, 12:31:15 am
I disagree

-having to choose agility (not strength) to get sufficient wpf is enough of a deterrent for me.

-Should also mention that polearm or 2H should always beat 1H in a 1v1. Especially the heavier polearms such as long bardiche. 
Quote
Block Stun(weapon weight), reach, speed and damage

-Higher upkeep reduces the level of armour worn

-No shield (except bucklers ofc)

-No shield breaker, spear or mace sidearms. (I often carry multiple weps as 1H for different opponents)
Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: Nightmare798 on February 03, 2014, 12:34:09 am

-Should also mention that polearm or 2H should always beat 1H in a 1v1. Especially the heavier polearms such as long bardiche.


I see no reason behind that.
Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: owens on February 03, 2014, 12:38:16 am
Block Stun(weapon weight), reach, speed and damage
Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: Nightmare798 on February 03, 2014, 12:44:57 am
Block Stun(weapon weight), reach, speed and damage

I dont think I follow.
Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: Grumbs on February 03, 2014, 12:48:24 am
Its kind of BS to say 1 handers should lose to 2 hand and pole. If it were true we wouldn't see so many 1 hand with shield around. The shield doesn't suddenly make 1 handers good, it actually can make fighting more awkward depending on the situation

1 handers are pretty balanced against 2 hand and pole imo (possibly too good in some ways). They all have pros and cons and if you are good at melee you will survive a long time with manual block and movement. Plus they have very good attacks too. They all got their weight increased not long ago so block stun is hardly an issue

The issue is you have not only a very similar character makeup in melee but you have very good ranged ability too thats not really that player skill based.
Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: owens on February 03, 2014, 12:52:18 am
I use Long bardiche 90% of the time and when I fight 1H they rarely get a swing in unless they are a skilled player. The same goes for any of the weightier polearms or 2H.


By pausing and then hitting their block they are forced into attacking(unable to change block direction), using your reach advantage step back while swinging from another direction killing them.
(click to show/hide)

As 2H you have either reach, speed or weight. These will always be superior to your opponents weapons stats in some way. Exploit their weakness.




What it comes down to is that choosing to have no ranged counter you must be wary of high damage ranged attacks like crossbows however you will easily take them down in close quarters. Not to mention your possibly substantial wpf advantage
Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: Nightmare798 on February 03, 2014, 12:52:42 am
Its kind of BS to say 1 handers should lose to 2 hand and pole. If it were true we wouldn't see so many 1 hand with shield around. The shield doesn't suddenly make 1 handers good, it actually can make fighting more awkward depending on the situation

1 handers are pretty balanced against 2 hand and pole imo (possibly too good in some ways). They all have pros and cons and if you are good at melee you will survive a long time with manual block and movement. Plus they have very good attacks too. They all got their weight increased not long ago so block stun is hardly an issue

The issue is you have not only a very similar character makeup in melee but you have very good ranged ability too thats not really that player skill based.


I agree. There is no reason why 1H shouldnt win 1VS1 against 2H/poles if the user is good. What 1H lack in punch and reach, they make up in speed.

Quote
I use Long bardiche 90% of the time and when I fight 1H they rarely get a swing in unless they are a skilled player. The same goes for any of the weightier polearms or 2H.

If it is 1H without shield, you cant use the reach of your weapon to your advantage because their movement speed is higher.

Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: owens on February 03, 2014, 01:04:36 am
I have 63 body armour and 69hp that might bias my view of 1H swords a little.
Can I ask how much body armour you use? All 1H attack direction but stab barely hurt me. My understanding was that average NA armour was around 65.


I understand your argument. Getting the 3 shield skill required to counter xbow is more of a sacrifice than that of the xbowman. My argument is you have superior weaponry, however if you haven't learnt how to fight against 1H this might be of little use to you.
Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: Nightmare798 on February 03, 2014, 01:10:21 am
I have 63 body armour and 69hp that might bias my view of 1H swords a little.
Can I ask how much body armour you use? All 1H attack direction but stab barely hurt me. My understanding was that average NA armour was around 65.


I understand your argument. Getting the 3 shield skill required to counter xbow is more of a sacrifice than that of the xbowman

With 63 armor, you cant expect to use reach advantage over anyone without shield, especially while long bardiche.

And tbh, I never met anybody whose armor I couldnt pierce while using my long espada. Yeah slashes are gong to be a bit of problem, but stabs? Nope.
Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: owens on February 03, 2014, 01:34:40 am
espada would be stun locked


I should mention its a +3 set so its weight is low. I still stand by 1H being ata substantial disadvantage in a fight vs 2H or polearm
Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: Kafein on February 03, 2014, 01:42:33 am
Pretty much no requirements
One handers are very good in their own right without adding ranged as well

A good melee player has the best of both worlds. Great ranged, decent armour, good melee. How is this a balanced class?

This. I could trade 30 or 50 of my 184 wpf and be very proficient at being a douchebag (using xbows) yet without losing much of my melee capabilities because melee wpf isn't worth much anyway. And even though calling 1h no shield "good melee" is a bit of a leap when obviously it's the worst kind of melee, it's not that far behind everything else. The worst thing about this isn't that they can decently use 1 slot weapons, but that they can get a 1 slot shield and a 0 slot 1h and turtle for years as soon as you get into melee range, giving you plenty of time to die from other sources of damage before their shield breaks. Xbows should have a skill requirement.
Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: Nightmare798 on February 03, 2014, 11:56:55 am
espada would be stun locked


I should mention its a +3 set so its weight is low. I still stand by 1H being ata substantial disadvantage in a fight vs 2H or polearm

You completely forget that you get stun locked too when you land an attack that is blocked, forcing you either to block the next one, or try to push a second attack while the enemy is attacking you. And that IS suicide against someone who is faster (both movement speed-wise and weapon speed-wise) and whose weapon practically ignores armor.
Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: bavvoz on February 03, 2014, 12:16:38 pm
After a few gens xbow + 1h i can only agree. xbows should imo require more str to reduce the ridicilous agility.
Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: Torost on February 03, 2014, 01:16:59 pm
A smart crossbower gets a good shield 1slot coupled with 0slot 1hander.

That way you stay alive.. just raise shield and move away. Stall for time.... stall for help.

When threat is gone.. go back to hiding.reloading.shooting.
Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: Rebelyell on February 03, 2014, 01:59:42 pm
WTF did you smoke? 1h (without shield ofc) is by FAR the most superior duel class in this freaking game. With my level 30  18/18  1h alt I was able to beat people on EU3 were I often failed with my level 34  21/21  2h main.
just ignore him, like rest of us
Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: Kafein on February 03, 2014, 03:28:43 pm
WTF did you smoke? 1h (without shield ofc) is by FAR the most superior duel class in this freaking game. With my level 30  18/18  1h alt I was able to beat people on EU3 were I often failed with my level 34  21/21  2h main.

lol
Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: Gurnisson on February 03, 2014, 03:35:44 pm
I wouldn't say any of the melee classes outshines the others in duels.
1H have great diversity in the animation and great speed and seems to me the easiest to get through a good player's defense, but that comes at the cost of damage.
2H and polearms are fairly equal with their thrusts being the most different. Polearm thrust can be fairly instant and have a less punishing thrust-stun (on dueling polearms..) and can also lock people down for a free kick afterwards (if you're a pro like Tor :)). 2h have great range and duration but more punishing thrust-stun.

However, I do think xbow + 0 slot 1h and a fast, durable shield is a bit too much when you only need 15 strength for an arbalest.
Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: Grumbs on February 03, 2014, 05:44:26 pm
What if 1 handers became 2 slot and 0 slot 1 handers became 1 slot?

1 lot of ammo, 1 slot 1 hander (old 0 slot) and xbow. Same with Archers. Archers can use a better 1 hand or take 2 stacks of ammo
Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: Templar_Steevee on February 04, 2014, 12:10:11 am
What if 1 handers became 2 slot and 0 slot 1 handers became 1 slot?

1 lot of ammo, 1 slot 1 hander (old 0 slot) and xbow. Same with Archers. Archers can use a better 1 hand or take 2 stacks of ammo
left slot system alone
Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: Kafein on February 04, 2014, 10:14:57 am
What if 1 handers became 2 slot and 0 slot 1 handers became 1 slot?

1 lot of ammo, 1 slot 1 hander (old 0 slot) and xbow. Same with Archers. Archers can use a better 1 hand or take 2 stacks of ammo

That would basically kill every form of melee hybrid using 1h, which means a majority of them.
Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: owens on February 04, 2014, 10:25:37 am
Lol


1H best dueling class... tard. I bet you wouldn't even get 1 swing in against me.
Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: Nightmare798 on February 04, 2014, 11:41:45 am
Lol


1H best dueling class... tard. I bet you wouldn't even get 1 swing in against me.

Owens go home, you are drunk...
Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: El_Infante on February 04, 2014, 06:26:35 pm
This thread should be in chamber of tears. For one simple reason. 1h + xbow is the same as ever. The only difference is the amount of people playing it. To discuss about 1h mechanics there are several posts. Xbow fever nowadays? Yes. And the same 2h lobbyism everytime ranged population increase. Just assume it like the counter-part of 2h-polearm metagame mechanics abuse.

- Hiltslashing.
- Pikeman jumpers.
- Str crutchers.
- 1h&shield with indestructible one.
- Insane amount of cavalry.
Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: Nightmare798 on February 04, 2014, 07:54:46 pm
This thread should be in chamber of tears. For one simple reason. 1h + xbow is the same as ever. The only difference is the amount of people playing it. To discuss about 1h mechanics there are several posts. Xbow fever nowadays? Yes. And the same 2h lobbyism everytime ranged population increase. Just assume it like the counter-part of 2h-polearm metagame mechanics abuse.

- Hiltslashing.
- Pikeman jumpers.
- Str crutchers.
- 1h&shield with indestructible one.
- Insane amount of cavalry.

You are completely right. Besides, if you want to wield a good crossbow, you have to either forsake shield, or a longer sword/pick/mace. The only ones crying about this combination are 2H/polearm strenght junkies that suffer because xbowmen are direct counter to them.

To all crying about this combination: You have to get used to the fact that having a weapon that can one hit most people has its drawbacks, you spoiled brats. Either that, or switch class. Nobody forces you to play 2H/polearm.

Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: Gurnisson on February 04, 2014, 08:32:26 pm
To all crying about this combination: You have to get used to the fact that having a weapon that can one hit most people has its drawbacks, you spoiled brats. Either that, or switch class. Nobody forces you to play 2H/polearm.

Where's the drawback to this 1h+shield+xbow which is capable of one-shots (at long range even :wink:)?
Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: El_Infante on February 04, 2014, 08:48:34 pm
Where's the drawback to this 1h+shield+xbow which is capable of one-shots (at long range even :wink:)?

Capable of one-shot? Gurnisson... gurnisson. In where crpg world do you live? I have troubles sometimes even shooting peasants with a full loomed set of heavy crossbow + steel bolts. Drawbacks?

a) If you want to use a shield and a xbow and still be proficient with 1h you need to split your stats even more that a shielder. That mean being mediocre in all terms, or focused in ranged or focused in 1h. There is no way to be all the things you want on 31 levels.
b) Is a non-intended behaviour having a buckler + xbow + 1h + shield? I think. Maybe. Unrealistic? Of course not. Genoese xbowman for example carried a pavise shield.
c) Increasing xbow STR requeriments for "agi" stacking? Oh god. I notice today that a majority of crpg 2h&pole population have from 21 to 27 agi.
d) Xbow life is expensive. Don't forget that. 20-25k to upkeep pool ONLY from a high-tier xbow and steel bolts.
e) THE FUCKING RAIN! that is disturbing the last weeks on 75% of the map rotation.

So. I understand the lobbyism rage about all mankind of ranged. And I accept with a smile all of their negative votes to my posts.
Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: Nightmare798 on February 04, 2014, 09:29:39 pm
Where's the drawback to this 1h+shield+xbow which is capable of one-shots (at long range even :wink:)?

I cant remember the last time I was one shotted by a 1H shield/crossbow hybrid. And the drawbacks are:

1: Lower speed and slower acceleration.
2: Lower damage and reach.
3: Long reload times (unless you are using hunting crossbow, which cannot one shot anything other than peasant by headshot).
4: Distribution of stats.
5: Prices and upkeep.
Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: Tibe on February 04, 2014, 10:00:32 pm
Ive played a few gens of it on my main. It is pretty solid, but not by far a masterrace. I found it relatively boring. Cbow is pretty lame when it come to entertainmentvalue as far as im concerned.
Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: Kafein on February 04, 2014, 10:08:10 pm
Ive played a few gens of it on my main. It is pretty solid, but not by far a masterrace. I found it relatively boring. Cbow is pretty lame when it come to entertainmentvalue as far as im concerned.

This. The only drawback of 1h/crossbow hybrids is that the xbow part is boring as fuck. Beyond that, there's very little reason not to do it if you intend to be a 1h footman.
Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: Phew on February 05, 2014, 10:00:15 pm
This. The only drawback of 1h/crossbow hybrids is that the xbow part is boring as fuck. Beyond that, there's very little reason not to do it if you intend to be a 1h footman.

I'm 0-slot 1h+shield+heavy xbow, but the xbow takes so long to reload that I usually drop it and jump into melee anyway, since you can kill much more quickly in melee. So now I only bring the xbow during the first life on siege defense, so maybe 10% of the time. You just miss too much action while reloading on siege. I don't play battle, but I hear with the new MOTF that the situation is similar there.
Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: Kafein on February 06, 2014, 12:05:09 pm
Still, the fact that it's boring doesn't make it less overpowered.
Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: Nightmare798 on February 06, 2014, 02:03:52 pm
Still, the fact that it's boring doesn't make it less overpowered.

Overpowered? You move like snail, your reload times are abysmal, your upkeep is godawful, and you divide your wpf into two different categories. If it bothers you people too much then why dont you nab some thrown to counter it?

I can understand why people cry about archers, facing constant arrow spam sucks, but crying about 1H/Xbow, Who are at serious upkeep and reach disadvantage seems stupid to me.
Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: bavvoz on February 06, 2014, 03:11:12 pm
What kind of gear do u use if u think xbowers have high upkeep?
Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: Kafein on February 06, 2014, 03:11:51 pm
Overpowered? You move like snail, your reload times are abysmal, your upkeep is godawful, and you divide your wpf into two different categories. If it bothers you people too much then why dont you nab some thrown to counter it?

I can understand why people cry about archers, facing constant arrow spam sucks, but crying about 1H/Xbow, Who are at serious upkeep and reach disadvantage seems stupid to me.

Bolded part : wat

Also throwing counters xbowers just about as much as shields do.
Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: Templar_Steevee on February 06, 2014, 04:39:29 pm
...You move like snail...
Have you tried archery? On hi lvl with 9 ATH lots of ppl are able to catch me. Kiting (read: run away, shoot, run away, shoot) is impossible even for me with quite op bulid (18/27). Some sort of kiting is possible if a str whore with max 2 ath wants to catch me.

Arbalest + steel bolts= 10.6 weight  (ready to shoot)
one quiver of arrows= 10 weight  (wait, i need a bow to shoot)

So argument move like snail is not an argument in this conversation  8-)




Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: El_Infante on February 06, 2014, 04:50:39 pm
Have you tried archery? On hi lvl with 9 ATH lots of ppl are able to catch me. Kiting (read: run away, shoot, run away, shoot) is impossible even for me with quite op bulid (18/27). Some sort of kiting is possible if a str whore with max 2 ath wants to catch me.

Arbalest + steel bolts= 10.6 weight  (ready to shoot)
one quiver of arrows= 10 weight  (wait, i need a bow to shoot)

So argument move like snail is not an argument in this conversation  8-)

That mean the decission of nerfing archers adding insane weight to quivers is an error. Because an archer is a skirmisher by nature, but devs, after the forum "nerf ranged 2013" shitstorm, decided to break the class. Another example of crpg disease of nerfing all things that can breath. I hate archers. I hate you all. But this is no reason to nerf you. Because all the 2h&pole pop think that they are the only true faith and there is no skill on ranged. Only click & shoot. :mad:
Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: Templar_Steevee on February 06, 2014, 08:31:36 pm
I think archers are class in this game with biggest numbers of nerfs, some of them were good, some of them not.

I think bringing back ladders to game would be nice after amount of nerfs we got.
Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: Phew on February 06, 2014, 08:55:10 pm
If I was a crossbowman, I wouldn't take a 1h weapon, I'd take a +3 Langes Messer in 2h mode. Similar stats to a Katana, but with a much more damaging thrust (albeit with the polearm thrust animation). A 1h sword may have a better thrust animation for certain situations, but the sideswing damage with 5PS is laughably low on anyone with decent armor. If you are facing a crossbowman with a stabby 1h sword, you know he's going to be relying on thrusts attacks, so just downblock/facehug like you would against a hoplite.

An xbowman with a 2h Langes is equally deadly with all four attack directions, so they are much less predictable to fight.

Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: El_Infante on February 06, 2014, 10:56:13 pm
If I was a crossbowman, I wouldn't take a 1h weapon, I'd take a +3 Langes Messer in 2h mode. Similar stats to a Katana, but with a much more damaging thrust (albeit with the polearm thrust animation). A 1h sword may have a better thrust animation for certain situations, but the sideswing damage with 5PS is laughably low on anyone with decent armor. If you are facing a crossbowman with a stabby 1h sword, you know he's going to be relying on thrusts attacks, so just downblock/facehug like you would against a hoplite.

An xbowman with a 2h Langes is equally deadly with all four attack directions, so they are much less predictable to fight.

I think not Phew. The best option (imo) is a blunt&pierce weapon. The lack of STR don't allow to land good hits. 2h animations are good but cut damage is not a friend of a low str char.
Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: Phew on February 06, 2014, 11:04:20 pm
I think not Phew. The best option (imo) is a blunt&pierce weapon. The lack of STR don't allow to land good hits. 2h animations are good but cut damage is not a friend of a low str char.

I hear ya, but the biggest drawback to maces/hammers/picks is that you have to be in kick range to hit anyone. Your typical crossbowman isn't going to have a lot of armor or HPs, so if they are kicked, they are probably dead. On a dedicated melee player, weapons like the warhammer present a favorable risk/reward ratio, since they have enough armor+HP to survive if they get kicked.

I'd rather need 1 extra hit to kill someone with a 2h Langes, but never have to expose myself to the risk of being kicked.
Title: Re: Xbow with 1 hand is OP
Post by: Byrdi on February 07, 2014, 12:17:44 am
Crossbows are just as OP as melee characters investing in riding to get on horseback.

I my opinion you need at least 130 effective wpf in crossbow to make it worthwhile otherwise you want hit medium range target and it will break very often.

There is no reason to limit the melee capabilities of 1h crossbows, they are far from as good as dedicated melee characters. The draw backs are of course different depending on the build and equipment, but here are some of the draw backs I think 1h crossbows suffer from:

- low PS and low WPF combined with 1h weapon = very little melee damage (except for the crazy 1h stabs ofc)
- low armour to compensate for splitting wpf = poor damage resistance
 -(or even lower wpf if you choose to wear a medium/high end armour) = generally worse of in melee combat (you often get out spammed vs. dedicated melee builds because you cannot keep up)

Either way 1h crossbows suffer from a lot less damage or health/damage resistance than dadecated melee builds which in my opinion justifies the effective blend between melee and ranged.

Also: I am not really a crossbower, I have an alt crossbower, but that is all.
I think people should try playing the classes before they rage about them.