cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Arnwald_TheDark on January 22, 2014, 08:02:53 pm

Title: Conservation is the key
Post by: Arnwald_TheDark on January 22, 2014, 08:02:53 pm

Hellow fellow cRPG players & lovers,

I would like to suggest a game changer that already excists in other M&B:W mods and makes the game a lot more realistic & interesting.

Basicly what it does is slow you down when you get lower on health, not only in movement but also in swingspeed. It also applies to horses, when your horse is almost black barred it will only ride on 30% of its top speed. For players its on to 60% and 50% wpf cut, ofc it just doesn't drop down to said numbers when you get black barred, it gradually builds up the lower you or your horse gets on health.

This makes figthing more realistic since you will be less callous & jump rush in a blop of 8 players on your own with your 2H hero or awesome shield turning.

It will also create a better ballance between high end armors & low end armors since you're already slowed down due to the heavy armor & on top of that, if you are wounded you will slow down even more, but on the other hand light armor players will have less of an easy time just backpeddeling out every swing over prolonged and bloody fights.

Sincere greetings,
Arnwald
Title: Re: Conservation is the key
Post by: Grumbs on January 22, 2014, 08:53:18 pm
Nice suggestion but to me its one of those things that might sound good on paper but plays out quite differently. I think it would just create more frustration for the player and reduce the consistency you get with your character. Team wounding would be much more problematic and people might be too cautious so they don't hit a team mate, and people would punish more.

Ranged would kite so much easier since every hit would not only stagger you but make it harder to catch the player

Nah I think its one of those realism ideas that doesn't really translate into good gameplay personally

Prepare for downvotes btw, having different ideas here is not encouraged :D
Title: Re: Conservation is the key
Post by: oohillac on January 22, 2014, 09:35:32 pm
Quote from: Arnwald_TheDark on January 22, 2014, 08:02:53 pm
more realistic
Quote from: Arnwald_TheDark on January 22, 2014, 08:02:53 pm
better balance

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Conservation is the key
Post by: Arnwald_TheDark on January 22, 2014, 09:38:48 pm

If you can't handle ranged get a shield, thats what they did in RL or bring a siege shield to quiver behind.

Also TH's would still be nerfed by 50% so what are you complaining about then?

It would translate in better gameplay all round, less brainless charges & more tactics, maybe for once people might appreciate ranged instead of leaving them happing dust.
Title: Re: Conservation is the key
Post by: Jarold on January 22, 2014, 09:43:01 pm
Oh no he brought out the get a shield card! Now you're in for it.
Title: Re: Conservation is the key
Post by: kinngrimm on January 22, 2014, 10:19:22 pm
If we get at the same time an ability called like "adranaline rush or blood frenzy" which would be activated after a successfull kill and making you immune to weapon staggering for a limited amount of time.
Title: Re: Conservation is the key
Post by: Arnwald_TheDark on January 22, 2014, 11:02:34 pm
Quote from: kinngrimm on January 22, 2014, 10:19:22 pm
If we get at the same time an ability called like "adranaline rush or blood frenzy" which would be activated after a successfull kill and making you immune to weapon staggering for a limited amount of time.

Why add an abillity, if you are so afraid of ranged staggering, then a better suggestion would be to remove stagger on any ranged dmg since you already have the slowing effect of having less health.
Title: Re: Conservation is the key
Post by: Adamar on January 22, 2014, 11:06:03 pm
Quote from: Arnwald_TheDark on January 22, 2014, 11:02:34 pm
Why add an abillity, if you are so afraid of ranged staggering, then a better suggestion would be to remove stagger on any ranged dmg since you already have the slowing effect of having less health.

And that would be realistic?
Title: Re: Conservation is the key
Post by: Kafein on January 23, 2014, 12:00:00 am
When you start complaining about downvotes think about your get a shield comment
Title: Re: Conservation is the key
Post by: Tydeus on January 23, 2014, 01:29:14 am
Quote from: kinngrimm on January 22, 2014, 10:19:22 pm
If we get at the same time an ability called like "adranaline rush or blood frenzy" which would be activated after a successfull kill and making you immune to weapon staggering for a limited amount of time.
Fuck it, let's just add Magic. Magic and... and rain dances!
Title: Re: Conservation is the key
Post by: Leshma on January 23, 2014, 01:34:33 am
OP you're such a my old friendcher.
Title: Re: Conservation is the key
Post by: kinngrimm on January 23, 2014, 06:18:16 am
Quote from: Tydeus on January 23, 2014, 01:29:14 am
Fuck it, let's just add Magic. Magic and... and rain dances!
you never heared about blood lust, seeing red, rage attack ... descriptions of people in extraordinary situations, gathering their last bit of energy to struggle against all odds and get through the most dangerous situations? I dont care how you would name it, but adranaline is there for a reason f.e. to ignore pain so you can keep functioning. What would that be in terms of crPG 0_o well how about "they cut me or shot me, but i dont give a shit because i am on adranaline trip and want to fucking kill that dude who shot me ..." so ignoring the pain any arrow caused ... not feeling pain ... one last strike which kills the last ranged my old friend, while he keeps shooting me.

Now if thats magic to you, then we live in a very magical world indeed ^^.
Title: Re: Conservation is the key
Post by: Grumbs on January 23, 2014, 12:34:14 pm
Games should try to simulate those things in the actual players. Its never going to make you feel bloodlust, but artificially adding it into a game will end up very "gamey" and fake, which can actually make it less realistic. So they should just try to put people under pressure by creating punishments for dying (like having to lose your turn to play and wait a bit like with Battle and you multi).

Its not really realistic to have a uniform "bloodlust" because each person would act differently in the situation and there would be a slew of other emotions going on depending on the person/situation. If the game makers can some how make you feel something as you play that that is enough imo
Title: Re: Conservation is the key
Post by: kinngrimm on January 23, 2014, 01:15:39 pm
Quote from: Grumbs on January 23, 2014, 12:34:14 pm
Games should try to simulate those things in the actual players. Its never going to make you feel bloodlust, but artificially adding it into a game will end up very "gamey" and fake, which can actually make it less realistic. So they should just try to put people under pressure by creating punishments for dying (like having to lose your turn to play and wait a bit like with Battle and you multi).

Its not really realistic to have a uniform "bloodlust" because each person would act differently in the situation and there would be a slew of other emotions going on depending on the person/situation. If the game makers can some how make you feel something as you play that that is enough imo
at least i get a reasonale response from someone  :rolleyes:
I agree on the part, that certain artificial limitations which put pressure onto the player may give you a better feeling of immersion then benefits.

With staggering it is but a special case, i believe, when it would be lifted for say 10-20 seconds.
A very short timeline, within without interruption you can get a flow and rythem going within your attack and defense patterns as Melee player, while the pressure you have is that you know after 10-20 seconds if you didnt kill your oponent, the projectiles afterwards if not having killed you already may finish you anyways by kill or support/stagger.

So while you gain a passiv ability, which
1) after only you successfully killed a person,
2) you get a 10-20 seconds
3) immunity to only stagger

There are 3 limitations to the skill and due to the nature of them, there should be created an awarness, that the immunity is not lasting forever, therefor the pressure you mentioned.
If that now then is shown like with the cooldown of nudges or not at all, i dont care, the later might be better as hidden and implied and less hud distractions. Then again, for people it is often better to have a visual representation of a time based effect, to keep awarness.
Title: Re: Conservation is the key
Post by: Tydeus on January 23, 2014, 02:16:39 pm
Quote from: kinngrimm on January 23, 2014, 06:18:16 am
you never heared about blood lust, seeing red, rage attack ... descriptions of people in extraordinary situations, gathering their last bit of energy to struggle against all odds and get through the most dangerous situations? I dont care how you would name it, but adranaline is there for a reason f.e. to ignore pain so you can keep functioning. What would that be in terms of crPG 0_o well how about "they cut me or shot me, but i dont give a shit because i am on adranaline trip and want to fucking kill that dude who shot me ..." so ignoring the pain any arrow caused ... not feeling pain ... one last strike which kills the last ranged my old friend, while he keeps shooting me.

Now if thats magic to you, then we live in a very magical world indeed ^^.
Yeah, it's an adrenaline rush. Practically everyone in any sort of combat situation like what we have in cRPG, would be going through an adrenaline rush. If everyone has it, then essentially no one does.
Title: Re: Conservation is the key
Post by: kinngrimm on January 23, 2014, 02:32:27 pm
Quote from: Tydeus on January 23, 2014, 02:16:39 pm
Yeah, it's an adrenaline rush. Practically everyone in any sort of combat situation like what we have in cRPG, would be going through an adrenaline rush. If everyone has it, then essentially no one does.
Please clarify.

While i see there are situations where the game gives me a kick through difficult situations like staggering, it also gives me with the amount of ranged and the way ranged works the impression, that i dont need to expose me to such flawed and rather grieving game mechanics. So while others ask for removing the staggering complettly or nerfing stats of chars, weapons or projectiles, finding a way to improve a flawed game design i see as preferable. Now we can agree to disagree if there would be a flawed mechanic in need of improvement, but i still rather spend my time to find ways to improve game mechanics then get back into the same old same old stats balancing discussions. In that sense i liked the OP suggestion, as it was not going for default nerf of stats, but trying to find a new way to change game dynamics.

Title: Re: Conservation is the key
Post by: Tydeus on January 23, 2014, 03:34:21 pm
It's going to either feel "gamey", as Grumbs pointed out, or completely pointless. "If everyone has it, then essentially no one does" means that upon entering combat you and your opponent would both receive an adrenaline rush. In this situation, has either of the two received any meaningful benefit over the other? No. If you did something especially gamey like allow them to not get staggered from projectiles, you might as well have just removed stagger from the game, not to mention artificially nerfed ranged.

Giving something to everyone is like giving it to no one. If there are problems with stagger, then fix stagger(you only need 15-25 raw damage for your ranged hit to stagger, this means 99% of hits will stagger. Good luck getting cmp to fix this though), don't add some excessively gamey system just so you can have a reason to implement the secondary effects.
Title: Re: Conservation is the key
Post by: Arnwald_TheDark on January 23, 2014, 07:52:57 pm
Quote from: kinngrimm on January 23, 2014, 02:32:27 pm
Please clarify.

While i see there are situations where the game gives me a kick through difficult situations like staggering, it also gives me with the amount of ranged and the way ranged works the impression, that i dont need to expose me to such flawed and rather grieving game mechanics. So while others ask for removing the staggering complettly or nerfing stats of chars, weapons or projectiles, finding a way to improve a flawed game design i see as preferable. Now we can agree to disagree if there would be a flawed mechanic in need of improvement, but i still rather spend my time to find ways to improve game mechanics then get back into the same old same old stats balancing discussions. In that sense i liked the OP suggestion, as it was not going for default nerf of stats, but trying to find a new way to change game dynamics.

Wow someone that can appreciate a fresh idea, that is already an improved over other more less constructive posts (looks at Hill).
Anyhow, as some already out, yes ranged could get extramely powerfull with the slowing effect but Kinngrim made a good counter suggestion, yes I disapproved first because you named it an abillity which made think of a skill spec or a button bound thing.

However if it were to be after a kill then it would reward 'stoutness & bravery' thus increasing the pace of game which balances out the feared decrease of the slowing.
Also it would not be a 'everyone has it' thing, since you need that kill first, and you could even make it so that it only works for kills on close proximity not granting stacking 'bloodlust' on ranged.

Furthermore you could rearange stagger on ranged by taking in account that if something is armor piercing it will stagger less, in modern times a soldier shot by a bullet in the shoulder with high armor piercing & little stopping power will have the bullet go through his shoulder from one end to the other but can keep on going, however if you have ammunition with the opposite propperties then he will most likely have a big gaping hole in his shoulder and/or fall on the ground.

What does this have to do with crpg & stagger you may ask, well keeping this in mind you could remove stagger completly from any ranged pierced except from throwing since having a small broomstick hanging out of your body whilst its ripping your muscles appart on the inside will still hurt.

Ranged might complain about their pierce being nerfed, but then again it still ignores armor which is on its own a briljant thing already, and mayhaps make them a little bit cheaper on the repair, furthermore you could buff the stagger on cut arrows with 1sec to keep this forum from being flooded by ranged cries, but I'd would just do it without. (*)

Sincere greetings,
Arnwald

(*)
Yes I have an archer myself, and yes I play it often, and I like playing it. However that won't hinder me in seeing some OP likeness in it.
Title: Re: Conservation is the key
Post by: Arnwald_TheDark on January 23, 2014, 07:53:44 pm
double post
Title: Re: Conservation is the key
Post by: kinngrimm on January 23, 2014, 08:03:15 pm
Quote from: Tydeus on January 23, 2014, 03:34:21 pm
It's going to either feel "gamey", as Grumbs pointed out, or completely pointless. "If everyone has it, then essentially no one does" means that upon entering combat you and your opponent would both receive an adrenaline rush.
Only if one has "killed" someone, only for a few seconds he would have the ability to ignore stagger, to f.e. reach the next ranged dude. If you didnt kill someone you are still prone to projectile staggering. That in my view neglects the "everyone has it argument", because by default noone has it

In this situation, has either of the two received any meaningful benefit over the other? No. If you did something especially gamey like allow them to not get staggered from projectiles, you might as well have just removed stagger from the game, not to mention artificially nerfed ranged.
Differenece again is, i dont want to get rid of stagger, i am but looking for a meaningfull way to soften its effects, as with the amount of ranged players at times, it is just no fun as it is, at least not in my book. If then 2 opponents approach each other, one of them just killed another one, and both are being targetted by ranged ... well the dude who doesnt get innterrupted ... has a meaningfull benefit, right?

Giving something to everyone is like giving it to no one. If there are problems with stagger, then fix stagger(you only need 15-25 raw damage for your ranged hit to stagger, this means 99% of hits will stagger. Good luck getting cmp to fix this though), don't add some excessively gamey system just so you can have a reason to implement the secondary effects.
Again the "something to everyone"-argument i see as invalid, as there are circumstances to be met before someone gets the advantage. If it is again about cmp not being able(time or whatever) implementing something then that maybe sad, also but doesnt count as an argument. It is just telling me, that there is no chance to get a meaningful solution either by implementing a new or correcting an old mechanic, right?

@Arnwald
yes that is basicly what i ment by my counter suggestion.


EDIT:
- passiv ability, not activly triggered by mouse press, but by "kill"
- lets narrow it down to 5 to 10 seconds, where it gives immunity to the "projectile stagger effect" for "melee" players
EDIT2:
- i also would agree on the suggestion that this short "projectile immunity" woudlnt work for throwing weapons
Title: Re: Conservation is the key
Post by: Tydeus on January 23, 2014, 08:26:38 pm
There are basically two potential routes you can go with the adrenaline thing. You've addressed one concern by stating "but instead we'd do x", but didn't realize that in doing so, you moved straight into area of being "gamey", which is the second concern. So I don't really see this thing having a future in cRPG.
Title: Re: Conservation is the key
Post by: Arnwald_TheDark on January 23, 2014, 08:47:32 pm
Quote from: Tydeus on January 23, 2014, 08:26:38 pm
There are basically two potential routes you can go with the adrenaline thing. You've addressed one concern by stating "but instead we'd do x", but didn't realize that in doing so, you moved straight into area of being "gamey", which is the second concern. So I don't really see this thing having a future in cRPG.

Everything you do in RL has an effect aswell, some instantly some delayed. Everything triggers snowballs, so why would it be 'gamey'?

You kill a man(/woman, yeah womens rights and all, even they are allowed to be killed in combat), and after this you feel a surge of might for having felled a foe.
Title: Re: Conservation is the key
Post by: IR_Kuoin on January 23, 2014, 08:53:48 pm
(click to show/hide)

Sorry
Title: Re: Conservation is the key
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on January 23, 2014, 08:59:19 pm
why don't all of you huge nerds just go play MTG and leave us all alone
Title: Re: Conservation is the key
Post by: Arnwald_TheDark on January 23, 2014, 09:05:20 pm
Quote from: IR_Kuoin on January 23, 2014, 08:53:48 pm
(click to show/hide)

Sorry

Quote from: GOBBLIN KING GREAT LEADER on January 23, 2014, 08:59:19 pm
why don't all of you huge nerds just go play MTG and leave us all alone

If you can't make on topic and constructive post then don't post anything at all, shouting nerd, f'ggot & so on does not help in debate, please go waste your life in other part of the forum.

Thanks in advance
Title: Re: Conservation is the key
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on January 23, 2014, 09:07:01 pm
Quote from: Arnwald_TheDark on January 23, 2014, 09:05:20 pm
If you can't make on topic and constructive post then don't post anything at all, shouting nerd, bundle of sticks & so does not help in debate, please go waste your life in other part of the forum.

Thanks in advance

Okay let me rephrase shitbird;

Your idea is over complicated, impractical shit that will never be implemented because it would be pointless, hard to code in this game, and would only serve to frustrate players.

Happy now, asstron? Jesus the fucking nerdery on you people.

"YOU AREN'T OBEYING THE RULES OF THE INTERNET FORUM OMG GO AWAY, DADMIN MAKE HIM STOP MAKE HIM STOP"

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Title: Re: Conservation is the key
Post by: Grumbs on January 23, 2014, 09:11:26 pm
Can't he have an opinion without being insulted? Guy is like making his first thread on the forum and he is downvoted to hell just for having an idea.

I don't agree with the premise but who cares? Sooner they get rid of the + / - thing the better for the community, might as well have people posting ideas rather than hiding behind gifs and one liners
Title: Re: Conservation is the key
Post by: Arnwald_TheDark on January 23, 2014, 09:27:33 pm
I had to look carefully in between the un needed insults & childish behaviour, but I think there was an attempt there to join the discusion.

Quote from: GOBBLIN KING GREAT LEADER on January 23, 2014, 09:07:01 pm
Okay let me rephrase shitbird;

Your idea is over complicated
hard to code in this game
and would only serve to frustrate players.

* What is complicated of the idea to add in health to movement/wpf link and make a counter, for the buffing of ranged due to this, by adding in a ranged stagger nerf by the means of a 'enrage/bloodlust' status? (ty Kinngrim for this nice addition)

* Why would this the health thing be hard to code? It already excists in numerous other mods & thus can almost be directly copy/pasted. The stagger would be indeed harder, but not extremely out of the way of what you already have now with dmg limitations on stagger.

* I'm geussing with players you mean your self mainly, at least thats what I deduct out of your somewhat childish demeanour on the topic. For the more experienced & aged player it would be nothing more then a releaf to see a stop at the brainless charges & have some tactics on the battle field for ones.
Title: Re: Conservation is the key
Post by: Tydeus on January 23, 2014, 09:40:38 pm
Quote from: Arnwald_TheDark on January 23, 2014, 08:47:32 pm
Everything you do in RL has an effect aswell, some instantly some delayed. Everything triggers snowballs, so why would it be 'gamey'?

You kill a man(/woman, yeah womens rights and all, even they are allowed to be killed in combat), and after this you feel a surge of might for having felled a foe.
Yes, I'm familiar with the term causality. What I don't understand, is how "blood lust" or an "adrenaline rush" is necessary. "Gamey", meaning artificial, forced and not really complimenting any other game mechanics. As far as reduced effectiveness as hp lessens, that's just a way to limit a player's enjoyment in the game. Not only does this limit fun, it negatively affects certain classes far more than others.

It's not something we can just copy and paste into the mod and expect it to work flawlessly, balance would have to be reworked from the ground up with this change in mind. That's too much work for not nearly enough being gained.
Title: Re: Conservation is the key
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on January 23, 2014, 10:20:59 pm
It would frustrate players because it's goofy bullshit. It belongs in something like Warhammer, not cRPG.

You are talking about a game where it takes the developers over half a year to fix siege equipment, bugs that give people millions of free currency, invisible weapons, textures that tear, et cetera...

The suggestion of a mechanic that would destroy classes people enjoy, slow down game play even further than it already feels slow in this mod, and require a total rework of game mechanics is just going to be buried.

Overall, your suggestion is entirely impractical for a mod in which the player base is already waning.

Fucking nerd.
Title: Re: Conservation is the key
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 24, 2014, 09:55:44 pm
I hate the mods where your horse slows down to a crawl when it gets damaged (even worse if that same effect gets applied to your character).

Fuck that noise. 
Title: Re: Conservation is the key
Post by: Arnwald_TheDark on January 27, 2014, 06:54:16 pm
Quote from: CrazyCracka420 on January 24, 2014, 09:55:44 pm
I hate the mods where your horse slows down to a crawl when it gets damaged (even worse if that same effect gets applied to your character).

Fuck that noise.

So you rather ride a magical horse that doesn't get slowed down by the blood fleeting his body? Or the same happening to you when your guts are spilling out by 1 to 2 strikes to the lower abdomen? Let me geuss you're part of the cav that rides into a wall with a 500kg (without armor) horse at about 25 miles/h just to get a couch killl on an archer and feels good about that?

If this were to happen IRL both you and said horse would be nothing but a big splatter on that wall, but THAT would be to much of a demand on coding.

Games should have penalties if you F'd it up, how else can you feel that you achieved something when there are babyrails that catch & guide you all the time?
Title: Re: Conservation is the key
Post by: Jona on January 27, 2014, 07:19:17 pm
Okay guys, compromise time...

How about we implement both ideas, the lower movement speed at lower health and adrenaline/bloodlust? Not buying it? Okay, just hear me out...

As you accumulate damage, your adrenaline meter begins to fill. For every hit you take, you lose some health (and therefore speed) and gain some adrenaline. However, as your adrenaline meter fills, you begin to ignore the effects of your pain, and can move faster. You gain 1 adrenaline for every 1 health you lose. You lose .5% of your max speed for every 1 health lost, and gain .5% speed for each 1 adrenaline gained.However, it should be noted that if your adrenaline meter is full, you die, due to the fact that it can only be full when your health is all gone.

And little did you guys know, that these two features are already in the game!

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Title: Re: Conservation is the key
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 27, 2014, 07:33:22 pm
Quote from: Arnwald_TheDark on January 27, 2014, 06:54:16 pm
So you rather ride a magical horse that doesn't get slowed down by the blood fleeting his body? Or the same happening to you when your guts are spilling out by 1 to 2 strikes to the lower abdomen? Let me geuss you're part of the cav that rides into a wall with a 500kg (without armor) horse at about 25 miles/h just to get a couch killl on an archer and feels good about that?

If this were to happen IRL both you and said horse would be nothing but a big splatter on that wall, but THAT would be to much of a demand on coding.

Games should have penalties if you F'd it up, how else can you feel that you achieved something when there are babyrails that catch & guide you all the time?

And my horse should knock people out when it runs you over.  When it dies and it's corpse flies into you and 3 other people, you should all be dead or crippled. 

The game isn't realistic, trying to bring realism into it (without a complete overhaul of everything in the game) is fucking retarded.  And it shows how retarded that is, in the mods where your horse slows to a crawl when it takes damage.   But no other concerns about realism are added.

Furthermore, your idea will never happen, so us opinions about it, are a moot point.
Title: Re: Conservation is the key
Post by: Grumbs on January 27, 2014, 07:56:15 pm
This should probably be move to Realism area. Thing is this game is only very vaguely based around realism because realism does not necessarily make a game more fun to play. If it did we would play simulators

Making you slow down when you lose HP would be only 1 aspect of realism and you have to consider how that improves the gameplay by implementing it. I don't think it would improve gameplay for reasons I mentioned already, like making the player lose his sense of consistency with his character. For games to be fun you need to be able to make judgements about what you're doing and the impact that has on everything else. If you move at one speed one time and another speed another time you won't get to know how your character performs so you won't learn to make good judgements. You will penalise anything that can't do damage from a distance and team killing hitting would piss people off way more

When you do realism you need to consider how it improves gameplay or immersion. If not then you can't just go for realism in one area then ignore it elsewhere. If we had realism plate would be so much better. 1 handers would suck. We would have real melee fights because ranged were only used before the main fight happened or you would shoot your own guys etc