cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => The Chamber of Tears => Topic started by: owens on January 22, 2014, 07:34:28 am

Title: How much armour needed to nullify ranged?
Post by: owens on January 22, 2014, 07:34:28 am
How much armour needed to nullify ranged?



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Title: Re: How much armour needed to nullify ranged?
Post by: Kafein on January 22, 2014, 08:08:23 am
If you manage to get enough armor to nullify an arbalest bolt or a throwing lance, you are basically impervious to any kind of damage (except falling maybe, and of course drowning and flaming katanas)
Title: Re: How much armour needed to nullify ranged?
Post by: Jarold on January 22, 2014, 08:10:46 am
If you manage to get enough armor to nullify an arbalest bolt or a throwing lance, you are basically impervious to any kind of damage (except falling maybe, and of course drowning and flaming katanas)

orly? Where is Lord Heskey?!
Title: Re: How much armour needed to nullify ranged?
Post by: Lord_Kitazawa_of_Voodoo on January 22, 2014, 08:12:26 am
You know, I seem to recall there being a reason why bodkin arrows were invented, but I just can't remember....
Title: Re: How much armour needed to nullify ranged?
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on January 22, 2014, 08:38:56 am
2x siege shields, 0 slot 1H, round buckler. Boom, you got 180+ degree forcefield from ranged. Save them for flag spawn  :twisted:
Title: Re: How much armour needed to nullify ranged?
Post by: Prpavi on January 22, 2014, 09:58:06 am
You know, I seem to recall there being a reason why bodkin arrows were invented, but I just can't remember....


Don't even go there
Title: Re: How much armour needed to nullify ranged?
Post by: Joker86 on January 22, 2014, 10:26:11 am
How much armour needed to nullify ranged?



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Why should you be able to nullify ranged?
Title: Re: How much armour needed to nullify ranged?
Post by: Teeth on January 22, 2014, 10:33:09 am
It seems that getting max armour in the game only takes of about 20% of ranged damage compared to going 50 body armour while making you twice as slow and completely unable to dodge. In my opinion heavy armour is detrimental to your ability to survive ranged shooting at you, which should be rectified if you ask me.
Title: Re: How much armour needed to nullify ranged?
Post by: owens on January 22, 2014, 12:38:24 pm
"Why should you be able to survive archer spam"


Basically archery has no hard counter. I think if a player is wearing plate only bodkin arrows and steel bolts from a heavy crossbow should harm them.


Throwing damage is a different story
Title: Re: How much armour needed to nullify ranged?
Post by: Joker86 on January 22, 2014, 12:54:59 pm
"Why should you be able to survive archer spam"


Basically archery has no hard counter. I think if a player is wearing plate only bodkin arrows and steel bolts from a heavy crossbow should harm them.


Throwing damage is a different story

The whole story with counters doesn't work in cRPG. If you have a game with a rock-paper-scissors-system, it has been constructed around that idea. It doesn't work on a game like M&B which was constructed around medieval combat, which was not about fairness, it was about being the shotgun in a rock-paper-scissors-system.

Thus the argumentation of one class having a hard counter and others not is not applicable. Least classes have a hard counter, and when it comes to one it's usually the horse archer. All the other classes are weaker or stronger against another, but it's not like you can say there would be a general meta-balance for classes. It just doesn't exist.

The range spam is a story for itself, but trying to find a way to be immune against ranged damage is like taking out the class of the game, and thus not a solution.
Title: Re: How much armour needed to nullify ranged?
Post by: Leshma on January 22, 2014, 01:00:14 pm
Go away Joker, you don't even play the mod. Be a smartass somewhere else.

Regarding this topic, if I recall right, Goretooth used to be able to soak ranged damage back in the days when armor could go up to 84 body armor. Not sure was that just a rumor or actually happened.
Title: Re: How much armour needed to nullify ranged?
Post by: Joker86 on January 22, 2014, 01:06:08 pm
Go away Joker, you don't even play the mod. Be a smartass somewhere else.

I would like to play it again, thus I stay. And someone needs to be the smartass if the rest behaves like biased monkeys who only know nerfing as a means to balance the game in a way so that they can go on playing like the duel focused autowalker-Rambo-lemmings they are.  :P
Title: Re: How much armour needed to nullify ranged?
Post by: pingpong on January 22, 2014, 01:14:32 pm
Oh hey look its nerf ranged thread number 9939245829031482148295034682377510521582049821012034293893711372839242094234832095320958320923582375192094812.1256, how original.
Title: Re: How much armour needed to nullify ranged?
Post by: Leshma on January 22, 2014, 01:20:34 pm
I would like to play it again, thus I stay. And someone needs to be the smartass if the rest behaves like biased monkeys who only know nerfing as a means to balance the game in a way so that they can go on playing like the duel focused autowalker-Rambo-lemmings they are.  :P

From my experience, players have that "everything is fine, balance is good" attitude only when they are on the break and not actually playing the game.
Title: Re: How much armour needed to nullify ranged?
Post by: Joker86 on January 22, 2014, 01:54:55 pm
From my experience, players have that "everything is fine, balance is good" attitude only when they are on the break and not actually playing the game.

I don't have the attitude. Infantry gameplay sucks dick and there is way too much ranged spam.
Title: Re: How much armour needed to nullify ranged?
Post by: Spurdospera on January 22, 2014, 02:46:59 pm
Not really nullified but what I have noticed that above 70 body armor them normal cut arrows barely do any damage anymore, bodkins still hurt really bad.

Of course this I have experienced with 33str 11IF char so that might be the other reason why I feel that arrows don“t hurt too bad.
Title: Re: How much armour needed to nullify ranged?
Post by: Prpavi on January 22, 2014, 02:49:06 pm
Plate is useless and has been reduced to a novelty item
Title: Re: How much armour needed to nullify ranged?
Post by: NJ_Legion_Icedtea on January 22, 2014, 03:00:17 pm
we could always test this out IRL? Someone get some plate armour on and we shall all shoot arrows at them and see what happens? :D
Title: Re: How much armour needed to nullify ranged?
Post by: Phew on January 22, 2014, 03:32:34 pm
Don't forget that projectiles hitting a shield on your back are mitigated by the shields armor+your body armor+10. When I put my +3 ECS on my back, I achieve 62+35+10=107 body armor. Cut projectiles glance, pierce projectiles do 2-3 dmg at most. The coverage is actually pretty decent (head almost totally covered), although my butt and legs are still exposed.

Once I put my shield on my back while opening the gate in that siege map with the huge open space in the middle. Forsvar (one of the nastier archers on NA) shot me like 5 times in my back, and I still had 2/3rds health remaining. He was joshing me in chat for being fat, when in fact I only have 1 ironflesh and wear medium armor.

I've even started putting my shield on back and backpedaling while approaching archers sometimes, just for the trollolz.

Title: Re: How much armour needed to nullify ranged?
Post by: Tyr_ on January 22, 2014, 03:46:32 pm
I wear my plate armor mainly because it looks awesome, the only other armor I rly like is the skutatos, but then you get shot by every archer. I think I am around 70 body armor, a little bit more i guess, and I can say horse archers without bodkins do no damage at all to me, headshots deal like 5-10%. Normal archers without bodkins only do serious damage on me when they use a longbow, but horn & tatar bow are basicly ineffective aswell.
So to a certain degree plate armor is quite useful, especially when most of the HA's are too greedy to get bodkins, but against pierce damage armor is just useless, all it does is slowing you down which makes you an easy target.
Oh yeah, before i forget this, mendro can oneshot both me and my horse with a jarid for each of us...
Title: Re: How much armour needed to nullify ranged?
Post by: Turkhammer on January 22, 2014, 07:06:52 pm
It seems that getting max armour in the game only takes of about 20% of ranged damage compared to going 50 body armour while making you twice as slow and completely unable to dodge. In my opinion heavy armour is detrimental to your ability to survive ranged shooting at you, which should be rectified if you ask me.

There you go, getting realistic.  What an attitude.
Title: Re: How much armour needed to nullify ranged?
Post by: Turkhammer on January 22, 2014, 07:08:05 pm
we could always test this out IRL? Someone get some plate armour on and we shall all shoot arrows at them and see what happens? :D

Been done already.
Title: Re: How much armour needed to nullify ranged?
Post by: Kafein on January 22, 2014, 07:09:17 pm
There you go, getting realistic.  What an attitude.

Realism ? Where ? I believe the argument is that this is poor balance.
Title: Re: How much armour needed to nullify ranged?
Post by: Spanish on January 23, 2014, 12:18:46 am
I dont know why people cry so much about ranged, sure I get shot at and killed by it but most of my deaths are usually due to the infantry mob I try to solo. Archers are pretty predictable most of the time and dodging arrows is really easy. The best thing to do is just not to be an easy target and most archers will shoot somewhere else looking to hit someone else who isnt paying attention. Same thing with HA as long as you stay near the mob or other ranged they will leave you alone. Stop complaining about ranged its not that big of a deal. And at the those times you get mobbed by 3 HA out on some open map with no help in sight well you're prolly be just as dead if they had been 3 melee cav.
Title: Re: How much armour needed to nullify ranged?
Post by: Nightmare798 on January 23, 2014, 12:27:33 am
From my experience, players have that "everything is fine, balance is good" attitude only when they are on the break and not actually playing the game.

From my experience, players have that "everything is fine, balance is good" usually abuse most broken shit themselves.
Title: Re: How much armour needed to nullify ranged?
Post by: Phew on January 23, 2014, 03:35:51 pm
I dont know why people cry so much about ranged, sure I get shot at and killed by it but most of my deaths are usually due to the infantry mob I try to solo. Archers are pretty predictable most of the time and dodging arrows is really easy. The best thing to do is just not to be an easy target and most archers will shoot somewhere else looking to hit someone else who isnt paying attention. Same thing with HA as long as you stay near the mob or other ranged they will leave you alone. Stop complaining about ranged its not that big of a deal. And at the those times you get mobbed by 3 HA out on some open map with no help in sight well you're prolly be just as dead if they had been 3 melee cav.

I also don't care about getting shot from a distance, for the reasons you stated. However, I hate when I catch an archer in melee range, and they just hold their shot waiting for me to drop my shield so they can shoot me in the face. You can't bump with RMB pressed, so it's a game of chicken they always win. Shield Shove (defensive shield nudge) should continue to block projectiles during the early part of the animation so shielders can shove archers without getting shot in the face.
Title: Re: How much armour needed to nullify ranged?
Post by: Lord_Kitazawa_of_Voodoo on January 23, 2014, 04:26:31 pm
I also don't care about getting shot from a distance, for the reasons you stated. However, I hate when I catch an archer in melee range, and they just hold their shot waiting for me to drop my shield so they can shoot me in the face. You can't bump with RMB pressed, so it's a game of chicken they always win. Shield Shove (defensive shield nudge) should continue to block projectiles during the early part of the animation so shielders can shove archers without getting shot in the face.

Actually, if you just walk straight into an archer with your shield up, it will make them drop their shot. Same with crossbow and throwing, too.
Title: Re: How much armour needed to nullify ranged?
Post by: Phew on January 23, 2014, 04:47:44 pm
Actually, if you just walk straight into an archer with your shield up, it will make them drop their shot. Same with crossbow and throwing, too.

I'm not convinced; I routinely run right up to archers/xbowmen/throwers, touch them with my shield, and still get shot in the face once I go to attack. Most archers don't let you get that close anyway, they kick you first. That's why the defensive shield nudge should be the default opener for a shielder approaching an archer, but it doesn't work for that purpose now, because the shield doesn't block projectiles during any part of the animation.
Title: Re: How much armour needed to nullify ranged?
Post by: Prpavi on January 24, 2014, 10:39:03 pm
I dont know why people cry so much about ranged, sure I get shot at and killed by it but most of my deaths are usually due to the infantry mob I try to solo. Archers are pretty predictable most of the time and dodging arrows is really easy. The best thing to do is just not to be an easy target and most archers will shoot somewhere else looking to hit someone else who isnt paying attention. Same thing with HA as long as you stay near the mob or other ranged they will leave you alone. Stop complaining about ranged its not that big of a deal. And at the those times you get mobbed by 3 HA out on some open map with no help in sight well you're prolly be just as dead if they had been 3 melee cav.


most of the ranged QQ comes from the EU side of the community, the situation on these two servers is quite different
Title: Re: How much armour needed to nullify ranged?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 29, 2014, 04:21:52 pm
I'm not convinced; I routinely run right up to archers/xbowmen/throwers, touch them with my shield, and still get shot in the face once I go to attack. Most archers don't let you get that close anyway, they kick you first. That's why the defensive shield nudge should be the default opener for a shielder approaching an archer, but it doesn't work for that purpose now, because the shield doesn't block projectiles during any part of the animation.

I'm pretty sure it does interrupt their attack, but you have to basically be 3 inches deep in their butt before it interrupts their attack and "stumbles" them.  And by that time, a smart player would have just kicked you.
Title: Re: How much armour needed to nullify ranged?
Post by: Phew on January 29, 2014, 05:48:18 pm
I'm pretty sure it does interrupt their attack, but you have to basically be 3 inches deep in their butt before it interrupts their attack and "stumbles" them.  And by that time, a smart player would have just kicked you.

Yes, exactly. The defensive shield nudge has pretty decent reach, that's why it should block projectiles during the animation and be the default opener for shielders to use against ranged. Otherwise there is no way to interrupt an archer/xbow/thrower without putting yourself at risk of being kicked.