...., but I feel that the source should be dealt with directly...
if we would live in a perfect world, yes, the solution with resistance increase is quick and dirty and again devs need to confirm, but there was a hardcoded problem if i understood that correct from an earlier discussions, which didnt allow to address the root of the problem.
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Increase the effective range where the shield wall bonus comes into play.
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sounds like a plan. There perhaps also needs to be something included to adjust movement speed of shielders who are close by in a shieldwall formation
Two of the major problems with shieldwalls are
A) that shielders around you have different ath and gear weight, therefore when approaching in a shieldwall formation sooner or later someone needs to wait or others fall behind.
B) the coverage is not enough for none shielders behind
Such a movement speed adjustment should have cirtain trigger so they are de/activated
like waiting 2 seconds in shieldwall formation = activating movement adjustment
attacking someone = deactivating movement adjustment
I posted this in the patch thread, but here it is again:
This weight/resistance change to shields in the latest patch was not well thought out. On the surface, it's a buff, but this is the reality:
-Small changes in shield weight have a huge impact on crushthrough resistance and block stun resistance, and now even the peasant Maul will usually crush through most shields
-Even relatively light weapons like the Morningstar and Great Long Axe will now block stun most shields on held attacks
The resistance buff was obviously implemented to mitigate bolt penetration, and the secondary consequence is increased shield durability (which no one really wanted). The problem with shields isn't that they break, it's that between crushthrough, block stun, kicks, and the crappy lateral coverage (against both melee and ranged), they rarely even get damaged. Even when I equip an axe and try to break someone's shield, they usually die before the shield breaks just because my swings usually go around their shield.
Here's my suggestions:
-Revert to the old shield weight/resistance values
-Make shield skill reduce the EFFECTIVE weight of shields for run speed/acceleration by ~1 kg/skill
-Make shield skill increase bolt penetration resistance
-Make shield skill increase crushthrough resistance
-Make shield skill increase the shield's lateral coverage against both melee and ranged
Not sure how I feel about this. A very high shield skill user would have a shield with amazing durability, low crushthrough chance, improved speed, and great coverage against all forces. I think that makes them too great against things that can counter them.
You use a shield which in this game uses usual right mouse button tap to block mechanics, everyone who's playing hack and slash games is familiar with it. Complaining about shield not being effective as manual blocking melee is just lame.
Mauls have always crushed through shields if you hold them a sec, don't think it changed muchI can live with the current way or the way before the patch, how crushthough effects shields. What i still dislike is that 3 feets away from a visual effect, the maul/mallet hits the floor while still hitting me, is that because of the shields coverage or because of the hitbox of the maul/mallet or why? Devs cant there anything be done about this?
Can't say i've noticed the block stun. If you are getting your shield hit on by a great long axe you're in deep trouble anyway. Put the shield away
I think the buffs to shields have only improved the game, but 1 handers are still a bit too strong imo
I think there should be more reasons to get shield skill above requirement. What about a -0.5 kg/shield skill weight reduction bonus, plus -1 kg/shield skill over requirement ? Of course the problem with this is that you shouldn't be able to reduce your weight maluses with shield skill beyond what your shield actually weights.The benefits of shieldskill, is for me also complettly open for debate, narrowing down the durability, if at the same time we would gain some better melee capabilites, i am all for it. Perhaps we can collect a few more idears, how to exchange or differentiate the shieldskill bonus.
And this topic is a discussion about how to properly balance shields. I'm sure there are those even among shielders that may not fully agree with how the buffs turned out (I'm personally trying to get some of the 4-5 tier shields to get tweaked back, change was already in place by the time I became a balancer). It'd be nice if people can come up with a solution that isn't just buffing shield stats everywhere. ...this, also san, within all discussions i have seen you taking part in, you always kept a clear few on the subject at hand, i am glad that you are in the ballancing team congratz to that!
...ok with me too, anything which would make a shield a viable choice for any class, and not restricting it onto a "specialised" class system, is ok with me. A shield always was not a weapon, but a choice of defense in this game and this mod, so it should go with pretty much any other weapon flawlessly and without restriction in that sense.
IMO you should:
- buff 1h mode of bastard-type weapons
- decrease weight of shields carried on the back
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Right now it's not really worth it to put points into shield skill as a 2h weapon user, and the 0 requirement shields are just dead weight since they break after only 1-2 shots. As a result 2h users are pretty much defenseless when it comes to ranged weapons.carrying shields were useless before patch, now I think the low tier shields are pretty good with the resistance+weight patch. Just check shields like shields with the "old" tag (old heater shield). They only weight 3.5 or so, it's not really bad if you use a long weapon (2h and pole weapons are long enough). And about bastard type weapons, I would divide my wpf between 2h/polearm if I was going to use such weapons. People don't seem to notice the fact that bastard type weapons are excellent hoplite weapons. Those weapons were meant to be used that way (only stabbing with shield+1 hand, swinging with two hands)
IMO you should:
- buff 1h mode of bastard-type weapons
- decrease weight of shields carried on the back
So that 2h players have a viable option for defense against ranged if they invest some points into shield skill. I can't really comment on any other balance issues since I almost never use shields, but personally I think that these changes would be nice.
while i agree that the buff sofar for low tier shields was a good improvement, i disagree that should be the end of the discussion. As san said, medium to high tear sheilds, at least not all of them, didnt need that buff or not in any case the weight and the resistance buff. While the resistance buff against xbow penetration is solving a thing not solvable by the root, it also put up a problem not making shields too strong. The weight decrease put other problems in eyesight while i am not sure the aimed goal with that change was reached. So there maybe some things to roll back on. Additionally i am in favor of Rumbloods proposal and lately =http://forum.melee.org/game-balance-discussion/anti-range-shield-change-attack-animations-to-protect-the-user-buff-bump/?topicseenKafein made a suggestion (http://=http://forum.melee.org/game-balance-discussion/anti-range-shield-change-attack-animations-to-protect-the-user-buff-bump/?topicseenKafein made a suggestion) which also is worth discussing more. I will keep on looking for alternative changes to shields, which wont only include stat changes to gear or char.(click to show/hide)
Another way of affecting shield's effectiveness on the field: Buff its nemesis.
It seems as if we want to make shields a little stronger vs. ranged without making them insanely powerful in melee.
Would the global buff to shields paired with a slight bump to shield-breaking weapons (change the modifier just enough to "keep up") be a good solution?
Yes shields are stronger overall, but a shield-breaking buff would neutralize the advantage in melee, while allowing shields to keep their higher stats to defend against ranged.
It effectively turns the shield buff into a shields-vs-ranged buff, while also encouraging a diversity of weapons (sacrificing stab to use an axe seems a lot more attractive now).
Just another option to keep in mind.