how to buff shields?

[kinngrimm]

This topic is about shields and how they could be buffed to balance the at times massive amounts of ranged players.
This topic is not about 1h, i think 1h stab needs nerf and kick range decreased, still not this topic.

And as there are more then enough ranged balancing topics out there, this should be specificly how a shield buff could help the overall class balancing.


things which could be improved

1) increase block speed => increasing chance to counter attack
2) decrease shield weight => increasing athletics effect => increasing wpf dmg effect
3) increase hp => surviablity
4) increase shield resistance
5) increase coverage => more forcefield
6) change difficulties/requirements
7) depending on 6) a rework of "shieldskill" would be needed

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personally i see reasons for tweaking one or more of the following points 1) 2) 4) 6)

1) increase block speed
when you are supposed to be able to block multiple opponents, but you cant shake them of or get rid of them, as they time their spamming against you and they have also good athletics, blockspeed could help slightly

2) decrease shield weight
to get kiters and to be able to keep up with s-key heros

4) increase shield resistance
Many do have nowadays shieldbreakers and while i still am able to survive that for a while, those who face a player with very good manual blocking skills, their shields live on borrowed time. Also it was said that you could get rid of xbows penetrating your shield this way, which also was said the only way that would actually work without too much coding(devs?).

6) change difficulties/requirements
Another idear i read and found interesting, that the requirement wouldnt be based on shield skill but on str and/or agi directly. That way pretty much anybody could pick up a shield and use it.
Perhaps a mixed requirement or alternating requirement would be a possibility here, so that f.e. heavy shields would need str but less agi as requirement, medium shields would need a certain amount of str and agi at the same time and light shields would have rather higher agi and lower str as requirement.

7) rework of "shieldskill"
If done as in 6) described, the effect of the shieldskill needs to be looked into, as already it doesnt give that much for higher investments as return in comparison to other skills.
From a logical point of few, i would say someone with higher shieldskill would get better blocking speed, as he is able to handle the shield better then others. If you but not anymore bind shieldskill to an increase in surviability of the shield, 4) becomes even more important to adjust perhaps even 5). Make then all shields more resilent and more HP but get rid of the notion that they become indistructable with 13 shieldskill and have already huge amounts of HP before that.(If so you but also need to narrow down the shieldbreaking effect!!!) What player instead with shieldskill 13 would get, f.e. would be the effect they could use a combination of shieldskill and 1h, as they wouldnt carry a shield at all which would hinder them.

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not to be tweaked at all is

5) increase coverage
while sure it would help against multiple ranged from different directions, i but never liked it to have arrows somewhere left, right, below or above my shield hanging in the air. Not only unrealistic, but it also looks crapy!

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discuss

[Grumbs]

I'd increase shield armour on all of them and reduce weight a lot when when its on the back and a bit when its held. More shields usable with lower shield skill

Increasing the shield armour should reduce the amount of projectiles that damage the shield and reduce shield crushthrough, but they should still take decent damage from axes
Making them lighter on the back and reducing skill reqs should let 2 handers and poles take one as a backup without having too much of an impact on their build and movement speed when they aren't using the shield. I do think 1 handers need some nerfs though if the shields get buffed and they are too good without a shield anyway (even 0 slot)

Tweaking forcefield comes with its own problems like invulnerable horses, protection from melee from too many angles etc.

Maybe shields on the back could protect against projectiles like was in the game originally I believe and remove the penalty for carrying 2 shields for certain shields (ones that break easily in melee)

[EyeBeat]

I could use a buff.   

[Ronin]

A good suggestion, a good discussion, a good thread.

Anyone minusing this didn't read it obviously and though kinngrimm was lobbying for a shield buff.

I loved the idea of mixed shield requirements especially. Heavy ones requiring more STR and light ones requiring more AGI.

By the way, my idea about shield hp and resistance:

I'd say the resistance of all shields should be a bit higher and hp a bit lower; in a way their survivability should stay the same against, say, 45 cut damage with 7 ps and 5 shield skill.

This would make:
1-Anything that does lower damage (higher the power strike, or weapon damage or lower the shield skill) compared to that to do less damage, and anything higher (the opposite stats) to do more damage.
2-Anything with bonus versus shields will be more effective to shields. Although I don't really ask for polearm axes to be stronger, I think 2h, 1h axes should be a bit better at what they do. Also, the main thing I want is it will make throwing more effective in the task of disarming your oponents' off of their shields.
3-Less penetration from bolts. I think anything below board shield in the shields list, excluding fur covered shield; should be able to block incoming bolts.

[Tzar]

Ive dunno what your trying with all your ideas..

The only one that makes sense is the decrease to weight.

Also the coverage, the rest of your ideas is just bluntly asking for a overall buff of your own class... an have nothing to do with countering the range current range fest...biased is biased... 

[Rumblood]

We know shields need some added survivability against ranged. The problem is that none of your suggestions will not also buff shielders against melee as well. So here is my suggestion. It could also buff a team of shielders in melee, but wouldn't buff solo shielders.

Increase the effective range where the shield wall bonus comes into play. It will take some balance testing to determine how close they need to be because it certainly has the chance of changing the dynamic of melee clashes as well, making nudges and kicks almost necessary to break a well coordinated shield circle, but it could at least be tried. My vision is where 3 shielders can approach a nest of ranged with 1 facing front (moving towards the center of the ranged nest), 1 facing 60-90 degrees to the right, and another facing 60-90 degrees to the left to block the flanking ranged and no missiles will get through. Adding a 4th facing behind would make an impenetrable shield circle to keep those pesky HA/HX from simply circling behind and disrupting the shielders.

As I said, this would still effect melee clashes and require some new tactics, but at least it wouldn't buff Rambo shielders at all.

[San]

I agree with some of the ideas proposed in both of these first two posts. Coverage should primarily be based on the physical size of the shield you use. I suppose increasing shield resistance could be a fix to penetrating shots, but I feel that the source should be dealt with directly. I believe buffing shield stats would just make them better against melee without doing much else, something that's unnecessary.

@Grumbs
Instead of 1h getting nerfed, I think 2h bastard-class weapons should be better usable with shield. There already exists many polearm weapons that have great synergy with shield, so 2h feels like the odd one out. If possible, making shields lighter on your back sounds like a good idea and a nice alternative to changing how shield requirements work (imo screwing over low req shields).

About shieldskill:
I think the final damage reduction should be toned down while possibly having a greater direct influence on base shield stats (speed, Hp/resistance). Shield skill around the 6-9 region becomes much more effective with the larger, more sluggish shields while 13 wouldn't be invincible.

This would make it so smaller shields would be fast at the requirement level, but high shield skill users would be able to use heavy shields almost as effectively in melee for a sacrifice in movement speed. Hybrid shield-users would be able to put them on their back when needed without large penalties.

[Ronin]

2h bastard weapons already have an use with a shield, it is called the polearm mode.

[kinngrimm]

...., but I feel that the source should be dealt with directly...
if we would live in a perfect world, yes, the solution with resistance increase is quick and dirty and again devs need to confirm, but there was a hardcoded problem if i understood that correct from an earlier discussions, which didnt allow to address the root of the problem.

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Increase the effective range where the shield wall bonus comes into play.
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sounds like a plan. There perhaps also needs to be something included to adjust movement speed of shielders who are close by in a shieldwall formation
Two of the major problems with shieldwalls are
A) that shielders around you have different ath and gear weight, therefore when approaching in a shieldwall formation sooner or later someone needs to wait or others fall behind.
B) the coverage is not enough for none shielders behind

Such a movement speed adjustment should have cirtain trigger so they are de/activated
like waiting 2 seconds in shieldwall formation = activating movement adjustment
attacking someone = deactivating  movement adjustment

@those who imply "biase"

(click to show/hide)

Melee buffs for shields?
One of the things i have to listen to for years now is "shield easy mode". I say fair enough, but then please go all the way with that concept. While manual blockers have mastered manual blocking over the years, which sure is an accomplishment, they also have not to put skillpoints into shieldskill, their tool to block swings, doesnt break, their tools also dont have "countertools" to them to decrease the time till they would break.
With many guys mastering manual blocking, the advantages of shield use has dwindled over time, when it comes to blocking opponents(s).

To be able to really make educated statements we would need to know:
How are the overall speed values of 1h/sh | pole | 2h, attack & block speed combined together in comparison to each other?
How is the weight ration 1h/sh | pole | 2h in comparison to each other, how then is that influencing movement speed and inertia aswell WPF and therefor overall dmg?
Include a dmg comparison of 1h/sh | pole | 2h

Synergies between movement speed and weapons length i say are far greater
then movement speed and weapon speed.
If but all three are combined, which i believe is the case for 2h/pole in comparison to 1h/sh atm, then there we have an imbalance. One of the major reasons we dont have so many 2h/pole users anymore and more shielders instead, in comparison to 2 years ago, is the fact that we have the positive feedback loop of ranged. While in clusterfucks like on siege , shielders are doing pretty well, on battle where duel like situations in a microformat are accuring more often i see shielders at a disadvantage, not even going into the ranged fuitillity shielders are facing.

All of that i "see", while not saying that it is good or bad as i see it, or how it would/should need to be in the end, but that are the observations and conclutions i come to. If you can provide numbers and graphs to the above questions, i may be inclined to change my positions if they wouldnt support my theories. The problem with "seeing" also is, that our observations are crippled due to networks, pcs ...so pardon me if i cant really be as objectiv as i would like to be.

(click to show/hide)

Now trolling purely biased for shields would look like:
. make all shields unbreakable or remove shieldbreaking abilites complettly
- gimme back forcefield and 1 slot huscarl and the old stats of sidesword so i can drag in front of me while backpaddling 13 of you nubs and killing them of one by one ... good old times *sigh*
- remove kick
- nerf 2h/pole

but i am not saying that, instead you get a wall of text with my thoughts, where i spent time to write in a foreign language about a game i love, to people i spent more time with then anyone else in the past years. So please give me that much credit, that i am trying to improve the game by making suggestions in a way that we can have a discourse. If the only thing i then get "you are biased biased biased" well then you can politly go and fuck yourself!

damn ... i spent too much time on this, need to make some food

[Rumblood]

You're right that any functionality of a shield wall meant to approach an archer nest would need to be addressed. There is a walk feature, but if they are approaching that slowly, the archers can simply run to another spot to shoot from. It would take not only a shield wall formation, but also some cavalry or agile melee to intercept that archer fest when they break to run to another hill or other camping spot. But overall, I think it is still a good option. At least when going side by side in a full frontal assault without worrying about flankers, it can help with missiles hitting feet or heads and especially bolts going through shields. At least I hope that the bonus would do that.

[Phew]

I posted this in the patch thread, but here it is again:

This weight/resistance change to shields in the latest patch was not well thought out. On the surface, it's a buff, but this is the reality:
-Small changes in shield weight have a huge impact on crushthrough resistance and block stun resistance, and now even the peasant Maul will usually crush through most shields
-Even relatively light weapons like the Morningstar and Great Long Axe will now block stun most shields on held attacks

The resistance buff was obviously implemented to mitigate bolt penetration, and the secondary consequence is increased shield durability (which no one really wanted). The problem with shields isn't that they break, it's that between crushthrough, block stun, kicks, and the crappy lateral coverage (against both melee and ranged), they rarely even get damaged. Even when I equip an axe and try to break someone's shield, they usually die before the shield breaks just because my swings usually go around their shield.

Here's my suggestions:
-Revert to the old shield weight/resistance values
-Make shield skill reduce the EFFECTIVE weight of shields for run speed/acceleration by ~1 kg/skill
-Make shield skill increase bolt penetration resistance
-Make shield skill increase crushthrough resistance
-Make shield skill increase the shield's lateral coverage against both melee and ranged

[Grumbs]

Mauls have always crushed through shields if you hold them a sec, don't think it changed much
Can't say i've noticed the block stun. If you are getting your shield hit on by a great long axe you're in deep trouble anyway. Put the shield away

I think the buffs to shields have only improved the game, but 1 handers are still a bit too strong imo

[San]

Right now, I've suggested some tweaks to resistance/hp (aka nerfs) to some of the 4-5 difficulty shields and a few buffs to some of the weaker 1-3 difficulty ones. Still waiting on more people to vote, though. Thought it had a chance of making the hotfix.

I posted this in the patch thread, but here it is again:

This weight/resistance change to shields in the latest patch was not well thought out. On the surface, it's a buff, but this is the reality:
-Small changes in shield weight have a huge impact on crushthrough resistance and block stun resistance, and now even the peasant Maul will usually crush through most shields
-Even relatively light weapons like the Morningstar and Great Long Axe will now block stun most shields on held attacks

The resistance buff was obviously implemented to mitigate bolt penetration, and the secondary consequence is increased shield durability (which no one really wanted). The problem with shields isn't that they break, it's that between crushthrough, block stun, kicks, and the crappy lateral coverage (against both melee and ranged), they rarely even get damaged. Even when I equip an axe and try to break someone's shield, they usually die before the shield breaks just because my swings usually go around their shield.

I haven't really experienced any more block stun on shield yet (I usually take it off against axes, the heaviest weapons I see), so I can't really say if anything needs to be changed in that regard. It's easy to hit around shields, but I also can't say how much better it is than manual blocking's area of effect. "Turning" into your sideblock in one situation may be a full hit with against a shielder in another, but that's just speculation on my part.

Here's my suggestions:
-Revert to the old shield weight/resistance values
-Make shield skill reduce the EFFECTIVE weight of shields for run speed/acceleration by ~1 kg/skill
-Make shield skill increase bolt penetration resistance

I like all of these suggestions and feel that the latter 2 need to be in place before reverting the weight/resistances. However, I do like how the shields 0-2 difficulty are buffed, and quite possibly the 3rd, too. I also like the idea (introduced by Grumbs I think) about shields having less of an effect on movement when on the back. That sounds fair to shield hybrids without making them spend a ton of points in shield.

-Make shield skill increase crushthrough resistance
-Make shield skill increase the shield's lateral coverage against both melee and ranged

Not sure how I feel about this. A very high shield skill user would  have a shield with amazing durability, low crushthrough chance, improved speed, and great coverage against all forces. I think that makes them too great against things that can counter them.

[Kafein]

I think there should be more reasons to get shield skill above requirement. What about a -0.5 kg/shield skill weight reduction bonus, plus -1 kg/shield skill over requirement ? Of course the problem with this is that you shouldn't be able to reduce your weight maluses with shield skill beyond what your shield actually weights.

[Tzar]

Shields are fine atm, stop messing around 

The latest buff where not even needed..