cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: owens on December 24, 2013, 04:42:05 am

Title: A way to give IF a buff
Post by: owens on December 24, 2013, 04:42:05 am
IF increases armour 2% per skill level (up to 5) and 1% per level up to ?10?  and 0.5% from there                  (values negotiable)


That is at 5IF you will have 10% extra armour. At 10IF 15%


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: A way to give IF a buff
Post by: Silfarion on December 24, 2013, 05:04:16 am
but then health is only determined by str

that is bad :(
Title: Re: A way to give IF a buff
Post by: owens on December 24, 2013, 05:29:51 am
^Poll added just for you cutie ;)
Title: Re: A way to give IF a buff
Post by: Taser on December 24, 2013, 05:32:04 am
Wait wait.. why does IF need a buff?
Title: Re: A way to give IF a buff
Post by: Life on December 24, 2013, 05:35:32 am
Quote from: Taser on December 24, 2013, 05:32:04 am
Wait wait.. why does IF need a buff?
imho its pretty useless unless you just got a bunch of extra skillpoints that you don't need in other skills.

it really isnt a priority thing to have, such as powerstrike(draw, throw) or weapon master.
Title: Re: A way to give IF a buff
Post by: Taser on December 24, 2013, 05:44:25 am
Quote from: Life on December 24, 2013, 05:35:32 am
imho its pretty useless unless you just got a bunch of extra skillpoints that you don't need in other skills.

it really isnt a priority thing to have, such as powerstrike(draw, throw) or weapon master.

Maybe not but its still really good. Not that great with only 1 or 2 but that's the same thing with PS, PD or PT.

Its still great if you have more than 5 IF imo. I go without IF on most of my alts and, until I hit 34, I went without on my main. I noticed a difference after I added some IF.

I don't think it's in need of a buff especially not where it adds a percentage to armor. Although that definitely gives the name a little more meaning eh?
Title: Re: A way to give IF a buff
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on December 24, 2013, 06:20:21 am
I don't think it needs a buff. I prefer getting more AGI and AGI skills to levelling IF, but it is an excellent investment. It's not worth it if you are going to wear light cloth armor, but with mail or higher armor you notice a big difference.
Title: Re: A way to give IF a buff
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on December 24, 2013, 06:24:17 am
90% of the good players I know always advise against putting points in IF... including myself.
Title: Re: A way to give IF a buff
Post by: BlueKnight on December 24, 2013, 11:33:58 am
If is quite ok, I am against the proposed idea because when people want to play in light gear, IF gives them way more by those several HP than it would with the armour percentage.

I still think something could be done about IF but it's nothing like a priority now.
Title: Re: A way to give IF a buff
Post by: Grumbs on December 24, 2013, 01:41:58 pm
STR and IF should have separate values that they modify. All the other skills modify something different to their base stat (even athletics). IF just add HP, which is exactly what Str does, while str also increases the cap on PS and has a bunch of other nice effects. Its often better to just pump more points into STR for extra PS than to put them in IF, because you still get some of the effect IF would give you. Or just put points elsewhere and not worry about a few less HP

There are loads of ways to make it a unique skill separate from STR.

Maybe make it +1 HP, +1 armour. Or make STR give no HP, increase base HP and make it about +3hp per IF
Title: Re: A way to give IF a buff
Post by: Butan on December 24, 2013, 02:14:56 pm
Quote from: GOBBLIN KING GREAT LEADER on December 24, 2013, 06:24:17 am
90% of the good players I know always advise against putting points in IF... including myself.

Thats the problem, every skills should have a possible reasoning into spending points in mastering them.


Atm it is only a dump skill for when you dont have anywhere else to spend points OR if you are going for a full strength character (and when I say full, I mean 30+ STR) in combination with a heavy or very heavy armor. Hit points doesnt mean jack shit if you are going naked, even my 101 hit points get rekted in 2 hits if I'm not wearing armor, but if I have an armor that makes me take only 5-10 damage per hit, then I have 3-5 extra life saving tanking.

But if you're wearing only medium armor, even with crazy amount of IF, it will only give you 0-2 extra hit before dying, thats just awful efficiency. For the other "normal" people out there, even with 7 IF you will barely see the difference, sometimes you will have a black bar instead of dying on the spot but thats it.

IF need a re-balance so that it grows from "almost always useless" to "kinda nice in some situations". Like every other skills.


Quote
Maybe make it +1 HP, +1 armour. Or make STR give no HP, increase base HP and make it about +3hp per IF

+1 HP +1 armor seems better IMO
Iron flesh = a flesh (the naked body) that have some kind of resistance and doesnt need piece of armors



But the buff needs to be smart enough so that crazy strength characters arent completely impervious to any damage. Like OP said, the ultimate maximum armor with +1 armor per IF would be near 90 armor. Would mauls and big-punch weapons dent such armor?
Title: Re: A way to give IF a buff
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on December 24, 2013, 02:32:04 pm
I'm not sure that giving people immunity to cut weapons is the best balance idea for pvp.

I'd probably take the skill if it gave reduced stun chance/stun length in addition to hp, but as it is now I never take it unless I have 1 or 2 spare points since off-class 3+ riding/shield seems more useful.
Title: Re: A way to give IF a buff
Post by: Molly on December 24, 2013, 02:32:55 pm
I always tried to lobby that Strength and Health get disconnected from each other but iirc I've read that it's unfortunately hardcoded.

Title: Re: A way to give IF a buff
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on December 24, 2013, 02:42:19 pm
It's possible to just use agent_set_hit_points with 1.143, but it'll result in an ugly pre-drained life bar if you subtract the strength.

agent_set_max_hit_points + agent_set_hit_points after would avoid this, but the max hit points operation is 1.153+.

The current damage would be a bit crazy without any bonus to the base 35 life though.
Title: Re: A way to give IF a buff
Post by: Ronin on December 24, 2013, 03:48:03 pm
If is an excellent skill actually. I'd never go infantry without it. It provides extra survivability against an unexpected archer to say the least.
Title: Re: A way to give IF a buff
Post by: San on December 24, 2013, 05:12:27 pm
Unfortunately, HP can't really be changed that cleanly. I made a topic about this before the patch, and most felt that IF is fine. Never thought about something like adding armour points, but I disagree with adding too much armour everywhere (including armour looms). A 34 pierce/blunt attack at 90 armour is similar in damage to 34 cut damage on 65 armour.

IF is pretty decent when grouped together, but point for point, it's clearly less important than other skills. I'd argue that some skill points are worth 3-6 points of IF, since most attacks in the game would deal more than 15-20 health.

I like where this is going, though, using IF as a source of damage mitigation, maybe something that's not stats related.
Title: Re: A way to give IF a buff
Post by: Teeth on December 24, 2013, 06:02:03 pm
Ironflesh is the shit, dunno what is wrong with you guys.

21/21 build with 0 IF = 56 hp
21/21 build with 7 IF = 70 hp

14/56*100 = 25% extra survivability. 25% extra before you go down every single time you spawn. If 7 points are converted to get more powerstrike you get 8% extra damage, 25% more hp or 8% extra damage, I know what to pick.
Title: Re: A way to give IF a buff
Post by: Tydeus on December 24, 2013, 06:27:07 pm
The problem with IF, is that it's more rewarding the higher armor your have, aside from that I think it's fine as is.
Title: Re: A way to give IF a buff
Post by: Grumbs on December 24, 2013, 06:31:34 pm
Its 11 more health or 8% more damage + the other benefits of str. Doesn't it affect weapon stun, crushthrough, knockdown, gear access etc

Those 7 points can be used for better movement speed, shield skill, more WPF, riding, throwing, etc. Its not just a choice of more HP or more PS

In the scheme of things I think you can spend the SP on better things to survive or deal damage
Title: Re: A way to give IF a buff
Post by: StonedSteel on December 24, 2013, 09:03:14 pm
IF is for plate wearers and slow movers

other then that its pretty much useless

u got an agi build? dont take IF

slow moving bastard in plate? oh yeah, that IF is gonna help you out big time
Title: Re: A way to give IF a buff
Post by: Macropus on December 24, 2013, 09:57:09 pm
Quote from: Tydeus on December 24, 2013, 06:27:07 pm
The problem with IF, is that it's more rewarding the higher armor your have, aside from that I think it's fine as is.
Well that's debatable IMO. Let me explain why.
Agi-oriented characters, due to having more mobility, are meant to get hit less. If we look at the utility of 5 IF points for a guy in heavy armor and something like 24-15 build, it's probably gonna make him able to survive another 2 or 3 hits. Same 5 IF for a 15-24 build will, however, only allow him to survive 1 additional hit.
BUT as agi guy gets hit less often, that one hit he survives will probably extend his life for the same amount of time as 2-3 extra survived hits for a plate guy.
Not like I tested it or ever played agi build with IF though, it's just what I suppose. Just wanted to point out that heavy armor guys getting more utility from IF is not that obvious, if true at all.


PS:
Quote from: Havelle Registered Voter on December 24, 2013, 09:11:15 pm
Just don't get hit.
The funny thing is - following your "advice" I would need IF even more. The less you get hit, the better IF becomes for you.
Title: Re: A way to give IF a buff
Post by: Kafein on December 25, 2013, 02:05:17 am
Quote from: Taser on December 24, 2013, 05:32:04 am
Wait wait.. why does IF need a buff?

So much of this.


Surviving 5 hits of any serious weapon should be the absolute maximum. Right now you can easily survive more than 10 with a good build.
Title: Re: A way to give IF a buff
Post by: Silfarion on December 25, 2013, 04:44:12 am
Quote from: owens on December 24, 2013, 05:29:51 am
^Poll added just for you cutie ;)

jokes on you i can't vote with so little reknown and posts
Title: Re: A way to give IF a buff
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on December 25, 2013, 10:40:05 am
Quote from: Teeth on December 24, 2013, 06:02:03 pm
Ironflesh is the shit, dunno what is wrong with you guys.

21/21 build with 0 IF = 56 hp
21/21 build with 7 IF = 70 hp

14/56*100 = 25% extra survivability. 25% extra before you go down every single time you spawn. If 7 points are converted to get more powerstrike you get 8% extra damage, 25% more hp or 8% extra damage, I know what to pick.

If you convert 7 points to get more powerstrike, you end up with 59 hp vs 70 hp though.

The main issue with IF is that there are damage ranges where it adds zero survivability, mainly in the damage range that you can expect for high-ish PS, Cav hits, Heavy Crossbow+ body shots, Bow headshots, etc, but it's usually more of a problem for people who fall within the range of 40-55 armor.

Damage AFTER armorHits with 59 hpHits with 70 hp
12-1356
1455
1545
16-1944
20-2334
24-2933
30-3423
35-5822
59-6912
70+11
Title: Re: A way to give IF a buff
Post by: owens on December 25, 2013, 10:47:08 am
^This exactly


Why would you put 7 points in IF when you could get 3 more str (+3 hp) 1PS and the ability to fill the build in when you reach higher levels.


21/21 vs 21/21 with 7IF is more than 2 levels worth of points!!!!!!



If you noticed the highest benefit per level of my IF proposal is available at low str
Title: Re: A way to give IF a buff
Post by: Butan on December 25, 2013, 01:35:53 pm
Quote from: Huscarlton_Banks on December 25, 2013, 10:40:05 am
The main issue with IF is that there are damage ranges where it adds zero survivability, mainly in the damage range that you can expect for high-ish PS, Cav hits, Heavy Crossbow+ body shots, Bow headshots, etc, but it's usually more of a problem for people who fall within the range of 40-55 armor.

Thanks for confirming my thoughts  :P

Quote from: Butan on December 24, 2013, 02:14:56 pm
If you're wearing only medium armor, even with crazy amount of IF, it will only give you 0-2 extra hit before dying, thats just awful efficiency. For the other "normal" people out there, even with 7 IF you will barely see the difference, sometimes you will have a black bar instead of dying on the spot but thats it.

IF need a re-balance so that it grows from "almost always useless" to "kinda nice in some situations". Like every other skills.




Now maybe those that think IF is very good WHATEVER YOU'RE WEARING will maybe think twice.
The extra survivability only applies when you wear tons of expensive armor, else its just a waste of points that will make you survive one lucky hit and thats all.

Some would argue that surviving one extra hit once in a while is already quite good. But its not cost-effective at all in most cases (7 skill points to have 25% of chance in an average encounter to survive one hit? wow) and should scale more.


Make it so that it is useful from the first skill point invested, with any kind of armor set.
Title: Re: A way to give IF a buff
Post by: Kafein on December 25, 2013, 02:06:19 pm
From the point of view of someone that usually takes 2 1h hits or 1 2h hit to die, getting IF to survive 2 more hits sounds like a huge improvement, and in fact it's more than 2 unless you wear very little armor.

You tanks have survivability already equal to more than five of my lives. Each time you die, I would have died five times or more if I did the same errors as you.


The thing is, people that survive many hits already don't seem to appreciate the huge value of surviving one more hit, because they already have so many anyway.


Quote from: Huscarlton_Banks on December 25, 2013, 10:40:05 am
If you convert 7 points to get more powerstrike, you end up with 59 hp vs 70 hp though.

The main issue with IF is that there are damage ranges where it adds zero survivability, mainly in the damage range that you can expect for high-ish PS, Cav hits, Heavy Crossbow+ body shots, Bow headshots, etc, but it's usually more of a problem for people who fall within the range of 40-55 armor.

Damage AFTER armorHits with 59 hpHits with 70 hp
12-1356
1455
1545
16-1944
20-2334
24-2933
30-3423
35-5822
59-6912
70+11

Net damage is very often lower than 12 if you wear heavy or even medium armor.
Title: Re: A way to give IF a buff
Post by: Rebelyell on December 25, 2013, 02:13:32 pm
maybe we should go the MW way

no free HP from STR
but more HP from IF

balance it around 6 if and we are at home

If you want to spare some skill it will be always IF, so maybe it is time to change it a bit
Title: Re: A way to give IF a buff
Post by: Kafein on December 25, 2013, 02:15:43 pm
Quote from: Rebelyell on December 25, 2013, 02:13:32 pm
maybe we should go the MW way

no free HP from STR
but more HP from IF

balance it around 6 if and we are at home

If you want to spare some skill it will be always IF, so maybe it is time to change it a bit

That would maybe help on average, but not change anything when it comes to braindead ivani4 clones.
Title: Re: A way to give IF a buff
Post by: owens on December 26, 2013, 11:35:37 am
^I have had a thought



What if this only effects base stats of armour!!!! (+3 armour gets the same boost as +0 armour)



reduces maximum armour by 10! lowering maximum "armour" a fair bit and it buffs plate users over loomed kuyak users!
Title: Re: A way to give IF a buff
Post by: Kafein on December 26, 2013, 12:58:31 pm
Quote from: owens on December 26, 2013, 11:35:37 am
^I have had a thought



What if this only effects base stats of armour!!!!



reduces maximum armour by 10! lowering maximum "armour" a fair bit and it buffs plate users over loomed kuyak users!

Can you just write this again in english because after reading several times I only came up with nonsensical meanings.
Title: Re: A way to give IF a buff
Post by: Butan on December 26, 2013, 01:53:34 pm
Quote from: Kafein on December 25, 2013, 02:06:19 pm
getting IF to survive 2 more hits sounds like a huge improvement, and in fact it's more than 2 unless you wear very little armor.


Against a 0PS pickaxe +0 opponent maybe.


If what you say is true, it means that, for 14 HP (from the 7 IF) to make you survive 2 hits or more, your opponent must (after damage reduction) strike you for less than 14 damage at each hit.

So if you are lvl 30 with 7 IF, you have 70 hit points.
If your average opponent only does less than 14 damage at each hit, that means you are able to tank about 5-6 hits from him with your fragile build with naked-light-medium armor.
Something is wrong with your maths Kafein  :lol: 


(im not counting glances, bad hiltslash or nudge/kick damage, NOR I am counting peasants, troll builds/weapons)

7 IF + no armor = 0-1 extra hit
7 IF + light armor = 0-1 extra hit
7 IF + medium-heavy armor = 1-2 extra hits
7 IF + very heavy-ultra heavy armor = 1-5 extra hits

12 IF + no armor = 0-1 extra hit
12 IF + light armor = 0-1 extra hit
12 IF + medim-heavy armor = 1-5 extra hits
12 IF + very heavy-ultra heavy armor = 3-15 extra hits


Thats my experience in strength builds. Dont you see a problem somewhere ?
Title: Re: A way to give IF a buff
Post by: Kafein on December 27, 2013, 11:50:36 am
Quote from: Butan on December 26, 2013, 01:53:34 pm

Against a 0PS pickaxe +0 opponent maybe.


If what you say is true, it means that, for 14 HP (from the 7 IF) to make you survive 2 hits or more, your opponent must (after damage reduction) strike you for less than 14 damage at each hit.

So if you are lvl 30 with 7 IF, you have 70 hit points.
If your average opponent only does less than 14 damage at each hit, that means you are able to tank about 5-6 hits from him with your fragile build with naked-light-medium armor.
Something is wrong with your maths Kafein  :lol: 

(im not counting glances, bad hiltslash or nudge/kick damage, NOR I am counting peasants, troll builds/weapons)

I believe we were talking about net damage, after armor reduce. So doing less than 14 makes perfect sense. Maybe the first part of my message was unclear, but even though more HP would be basically useless for me because I don't wear armor, the fact that I don't wear armor and often die at the first error I do, makes me realise how forgiving playing a tincan is. When you survive two hits, imagine that I would have died if I had taken that damage. That's my point.

Quote from: Butan on December 26, 2013, 01:53:34 pm
7 IF + no armor = 0-1 extra hit
7 IF + light armor = 0-1 extra hit
7 IF + medium-heavy armor = 1-2 extra hits
7 IF + very heavy-ultra heavy armor = 1-5 extra hits

12 IF + no armor = 0-1 extra hit
12 IF + light armor = 0-1 extra hit
12 IF + medim-heavy armor = 1-5 extra hits
12 IF + very heavy-ultra heavy armor = 3-15 extra hits


Thats my experience in strength builds. Dont you see a problem somewhere ?

I don't completely agree with that chart. Already with 40ish total body armor if your total HP is higher than 70 you can take quite a beating.
Title: Re: A way to give IF a buff
Post by: Butan on December 27, 2013, 01:14:15 pm
Thats what I feel when I play, maybe I encounter too much +3 weapons users  :D  It was much more beneficial to have IF months/years ago when most people didnt have masterwork weapons nor knew how to use them at 100% efficiency.


With 40 armor and 70 HP (ignoring ranged) you should die in 3-4 hits maximum, except against low PS - low base damage weapons (which are quite rare and absolutely not representative); with some exceptional cases you can have the situation you presented earlier with 5-6 hits survival rate, but only if you're lucky (damage randomness is still there) AND that you have at least a medium armor, like in your last example, and never naked or light...
Title: Re: A way to give IF a buff
Post by: Tydeus on December 29, 2013, 03:53:40 pm
Speed bonuses and sweetspots reduce damage by a fair bit. 14 damage a hit isn't exactly rare if you're hitting someone with 60+ body armor, especially if you're using a 1h cut weapon. Also, most melee have at least 50 armor, 40 is pretty low.