cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Osiris on November 15, 2013, 02:55:39 pm

Title: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Osiris on November 15, 2013, 02:55:39 pm
So your fighting a mob or solo and you come across awlpikers hoplites etc question is which do you fear more?

We were having this discussion in IRC  and it seems there was a divide.

Tydeus and fraichedan both said hoplites were more problamatic me and n30 were of the opinion that awlpikes mainly and other 2h are much scarier to fight both in 1 on 1 and ganks.


Personally i fear a good awlpiker in a gank more than a good hoplite but its just me. my question is what would do you fear more. Im not sure if NA has fewer awlpikes more hoplites etc etc so im making it NA/EU poll ^^. Opinions welcome maybe i just suck at fighting awlpikes.

Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Apsod on November 15, 2013, 03:01:17 pm
I fear 2D polearms more because of their mobility and their extra swing direction. Hoplites feel a bit "slow and steady wins the race" while 2D polearms are more wild and unpredictable.

Which one is more effective is another question though.

Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on November 15, 2013, 03:03:27 pm
I get wibbly wobbly stabbed by hoplites in a mob through their teammates much more often than with awlpikers which leads to me getting chain stunned by the rest of the mob until death, but awlpikers deal a ton more damage.

Awlpikers are more problematic in 1v1.

Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: NuberT on November 15, 2013, 03:08:13 pm
Awlpike and 2D I'd say, even though I find the polearm stab easier to chamberblock than pole + shield stab, they do more damage and are more agile.

Double sided lance hoplite are nowadays inferior to 1h stab, havn't played with my double sided lance in weeks.. but that is off topic^^

Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Leshma on November 15, 2013, 03:10:10 pm
Hoplites are annoying because they have a shield and act as turtles most of the time, but I don't fear them that much. Awlpikers are annoying because of broken hitboxes on that weapon. But both are fine imho because there are many broken things in cRPG so they balance themselves in a way. What I fear the most are STR crutchers with long twohanded swords because of their "range". Their movement is unpredictable and therefore hard to fight because they get lucky and you're dead meat. Awlpikers and hoplites at least have style and some fighting technique unlike those who perform "whirlwind" all the time.
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: sF_Guardian on November 15, 2013, 03:11:23 pm
2D because of their epileptic palystyle.
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Gurnisson on November 15, 2013, 03:14:18 pm
Hoplite, definitely. Way harder to kill with quick target-switching which makes them a lot more deadly while getting ganked. I fear an ashwood pike guy with a shield more than a pikeman, 2d polearmer or a mauler while getting ganked.
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Rebelyell on November 15, 2013, 03:24:10 pm
Alwpike is bulshit and it is not only problem of stats
morningstar and bec have similar dmg output and no one call the stupid op shiet ect

In my opinion stab animation that we can abuze all the time is the problem, lol stabs transform shit stabs in to supper deadly death anime attacks.

for example if you just stab with GS it will glance a lot but with bit of skill timing and rotation you can easily connect attack with high damage output

2d polearms are nothing bad in teory but lolstab change that totaly

In my opinion there is 1 way to fix it
no rotation on all weapon,
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Austrian on November 15, 2013, 03:26:06 pm
Two words: Heibai and Knitler.

The End
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Butan on November 15, 2013, 03:35:31 pm
Two words: Heibai and Knitler.

The End
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Grumbs on November 15, 2013, 03:44:58 pm
I'd rather fight a 2d pole 1v1 than a hoplite. A 2d guy will make some mistakes with blocking eventually, especially if you have a 4d weapon. Fights don't usually stay 1v1 forever too, if I have someone to join in I'd rather fight a 2d even more because you can combo 2 different attack directions at once. You can hold and release to stun the guy a bit too, which doesn't seem to work against shields. Once a shield is broken the guy can then have a 4d weapon which I find harder to fight than 2d, same with 1 or 2 handers.

In terms of hardest to fight for me i'd go 1 hander/shield, 2 hander, hoplite, 2d. Depends on the players though ofc. Can't just look at the class if its a guy like Chase with Awlpike
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Panos_ on November 15, 2013, 03:53:34 pm
I fear none, fear is for 2handers only
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Rebelyell on November 15, 2013, 05:39:06 pm
I fear none, fear is for 2handers only
dont worry next pach I will go 1h pole hybrid so you will see 1 2h my old friend less
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Fuma Kotaro on November 15, 2013, 05:50:47 pm
dont worry next pach I will go 1h pole hybrid so you will see 1 2h my old friend less
does that mean you are brave now? or will you just take a pikestabsidesword and become even more gay?
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Carthan on November 15, 2013, 05:51:12 pm
NA agiwhore here.
I think you can kill them both if you take time to learn how they fight but back to the question.
Personally I think the 2 directionals are a bit more dangerous just because I don't always expect the overhead.

Hoplites just kinda sit there and
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


PS: Thank you for putting in NA/EU options for clarification
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Teeth on November 15, 2013, 05:59:15 pm
Problem with hoplites is that you can't kill them fast when getting ganked because they have a shield to block, where a quick target switch might help you dispose of the awlpiker. Hoplites also have longer range and can stab around their ally more efficiently, which negates the one trick you use to survive in ganks, keeping on enemy between you and the others. With current stabs though any support polearmer even if they are not that good makes a gank damn challenging, of course depending on the relative movement speeds.

Oh in general situations I'd say awlpikers and 2D because they are the most OP weapons right now to fight as melee, not in a duel, but their combined group fighting and solo fighting strength makes them the best weapon in my opinion.
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Carthan on November 15, 2013, 06:18:39 pm
^
Yeah, it seems like if I get caught between multiple pokey polearmers I get killed quickly and painfully because they have such reach and speed I get trapped between them
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Butan on November 15, 2013, 06:19:38 pm
Hoplites are best for medium-long range and alwpikes for short-medium range.

If you're a hugger you will fear awlpikes, if you're a long range player you will fear hoplites.
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on November 15, 2013, 06:20:54 pm
I said awlpike/2D was thinking more of a 1v1 situation.  In a gank I think hoplites are the more valuable of the two.
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: karasu on November 15, 2013, 06:25:53 pm
Kinda silly to put awlpike and the rest of the other 2d's on the same sack. Pointless poll this way.
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Teeth on November 15, 2013, 06:48:38 pm
Kinda silly to put awlpike and the rest of the other 2d's on the same sack. Pointless poll this way.
Nope, awlpike, ashwood pike, long awlpike, ranseur, partisan, you name it. All these weapons are ridiculously strong. Save the English Bill and Swiss Halberd perhaps which are still amazing, but their low stab damage makes them slower damage dealers than the others, as the polearm stab is so much better than the polearm overhead. Especially lately my trusty English Bill seems to suffer from incredibly poor hit detection on overheads.
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: wanteds on November 15, 2013, 07:05:17 pm
Nope, awlpike, ashwood pike, long awlpike, ranseur, partisan, you name it. All these weapons are ridiculously strong. Save the English Bill and Swiss Halberd perhaps which are still amazing, but their low stab damage makes them slower damage dealers than the others, as the polearm stab is so much better than the polearm overhead. Especially lately my trusty English Bill seems to suffer from incredibly poor hit detection on overheads.

Have noticed that too. lately many of overheads with English bill result as such you have hit against a wall and attack just gets cancelled, no bounce, nothing or no-one behind u that your weapon gets stuck on, just attacks getting cancelled.
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Osiris on November 15, 2013, 07:09:15 pm
i just team hit everyone when trying to use overhead on the bill :(
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Johammeth on November 15, 2013, 08:54:56 pm
Hoplites who drop their shield get the best of both worlds.
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: karasu on November 15, 2013, 09:39:15 pm
Hoplites who drop their shield get the best of both worlds.

Specially if he has a 4d polearm. It's GG game over yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!


Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Zanze on November 16, 2013, 01:12:32 am
2D poles. Most hoplites in NA are not very good. The few that are I try my best to recognize to either gank them early, or avoid them if they are in a kill squad. 2D poles on the other hand either break my shield or stab quickly, both of which are annoying.
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Tanken on November 16, 2013, 02:27:18 am
I feel that a talented hoplite can outplay a talented 2d polearm user most times. It really depends upon the playstyle of the Hoplite I suppose. A lot of Hoplites are guilty of turtling up, but the good ones are the ones that aren't afraid to get into the mix, play aggressive, and switch targets frequently. A good short-range spear (such as The Spear) surrounded by enemies can do a lot of quick damage.


There are only a handful of good Hoplites in NA and I would take a few of those guys up against any master 2D polearm user any day and place my bet on the Hoplites. That's just me though.

One additional thing; The chances of a Hoplite making it to combat vs. a 2D Polearm user without taking ranged damage largely favors the Hoplite. So, in a real combat situation NA_1, the Hoplite is more versatile and withstanding than an exposed 2D Polearmer.
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: bilwit on November 16, 2013, 06:02:56 am
In a 1v1? Awlpike+other 2D by about a hundred times over. Just chamber the hoplite and he'll give up and put away his shield. There's a reason why most of them use warspears :lol:
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Voester on November 16, 2013, 06:11:06 am
I feel that a talented hoplite can outplay a talented 2d polearm user most times. It really depends upon the playstyle of the Hoplite I suppose. A lot of Hoplites are guilty of turtling up, but the good ones are the ones that aren't afraid to get into the mix, play aggressive, and switch targets frequently. A good short-range spear (such as The Spear) surrounded by enemies can do a lot of quick damage.


There are only a handful of good Hoplites in NA and I would take a few of those guys up against any master 2D polearm user any day and place my bet on the Hoplites. That's just me though.

One additional thing; The chances of a Hoplite making it to combat vs. a 2D Polearm user without taking ranged damage largely favors the Hoplite. So, in a real combat situation NA_1, the Hoplite is more versatile and withstanding than an exposed 2D Polearmer.

As pretty much the only dedicated NA awlpiker i have to disagree i pull a hell of a lot more kills than hoplites do. I use the awlpike and i love it and have always loved it, but even i recognize its OP.
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Kalam on November 16, 2013, 06:15:49 am
Awlpike/other 2Der.

Hoplites can be safely ignored. Blocking down isn't that hard when the person stabbing has limited maneuverability.

Both are equally deadly in Strategus.

Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: ShinySpoons on November 16, 2013, 11:23:40 am
As an off and on hoplite I can safely say an awlpike is more effective in terms of directly killing+dmg done. The awlpike playstyle generally requires one to be solo or in a small group. Hoplites are more effective in a mildly organized clusterfuck and open up opponents to atks from allies through stunning and distraction with the shield rather than outright killing.
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Tibe on November 16, 2013, 12:41:53 pm
Awlpike and other 2d weapons are by far the worst ones. Hoplite is bad, but its dooable. Fighting against 2d weapons is a complete and utter pain. Its not hard thou, its just annoying.
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: woody on November 16, 2013, 01:19:40 pm
I think Awlpike alone with the exception of bloody knitler I enjoy fighting. Sensible awlpiker plus a non retarded 2h is hideously difficult. Strat where you have 3 awlpikes and 2-3 2h working together means death unless you break the line with a charge by several of you.
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Nehvar on November 16, 2013, 02:57:49 pm
The owwpike and long owwpike are both stabby rage factories.
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: HardRice on November 16, 2013, 05:20:07 pm
Competent hoplites. As a 2d polearm user myself, hoplite get an extension on their ranged due to the animation (I think?) 

Plus they can just sit there and turtle while another one of their team comes up behind you.

(Rhalzo please stop being a hoplite, it hurts  :mad:)
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Sari on November 16, 2013, 10:04:29 pm
I usually don't see awlpikes on NA or on strategus.
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Tibe on November 16, 2013, 10:41:21 pm
I usually don't see awlpikes on NA or on strategus.

Havent played a single stratbattle in over 4 months now, but last time I played it, the awlpike was basically the obligatory weapon in almost every battle.
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Canary on November 17, 2013, 01:20:24 am
As an often-time 2d polearm user and hoplite myself, I find hoplites in general a more effective counter to my playstyle. In a group they have a much better potential to screw you over without being easily dealt with due to their shield. You just can't pull the old "charge the pikeman to surprise attack him while he's thruststunned" thing on them. There don't seem to be as many exceedingly impressive hoplites around as there used to be, though.

When I'm using such weapons, I have found that in general the regular awlpike is the easiest weapon for me to get kills with out of any item in the game. Ever since the original turn-nerf the long awlpike (and now the newer weapons that function very similarly) hasn't had similar ease of use, even after the, uh, reparation weight-speed-turning change. They're still very good weapons, but they haven't got as good of team synergy as the long end of hoplite weapons (ashwood pike, light lance) or a long spear or pike, and people seem to know how to deal with them better than old inviso-tip.

The bamboo spear deserves special mention in that it has a great medium range and is an effective in-between of other higher damage 2d weapons and the pike-style weapons, but the lower damage makes it a lot less versatile than the others (the overhead has a penchant for glancing at the worst possible moment and as a hoplite weapon the combination of being almost too long and low damage makes landing effective hits a little more challenging).

Once you get used to the overhead hitboxes, the swiss halberd and especially the english bill are extremely effective group-fighting weapons. If you're capable of exploiting them, you can land hits that practically go through your teammates, which is definitely a boon in a group. Positioning is a lot more important when using them, however, and you'll get more botched attacks from people behind you and people (teammates, that is) moving left and right too much. When fighting against them, though, it seems like most people have not gotten ahold of using them very well. They're usually easier to see coming than down-attack oriented 2d polearms, too.
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Jarlek on November 17, 2013, 01:27:05 am
Knitler told me to post these two screens and text for him:
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)

It's not about the weapon, but the player behind it.
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Chasey on November 17, 2013, 01:30:26 am
why wouldn't he post that him self lol ? he's not muted
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Knitler on November 17, 2013, 01:34:04 am
why wouldn't he post that him self lol ? he's not muted

Dont wanted to look hory or arrogant ... but Jarlek fucked it up anyway ... ^^
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Jarlek on November 17, 2013, 01:35:32 am
why wouldn't he post that him self lol ? he's not muted
He's a shy little boy with a tender soul who wanted me to post this for him so they would minus me instead of him.

Or it was some sort of code for gay sex.
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Corsair831 on November 17, 2013, 01:36:23 am
Knitler told me to post these two screens and text for him:
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)

It's not about the weapon, but the player behind it.

no, it's definitely about the weapon. i'm sorry, knitler's not bad, but he's not that good that he gets those scores. abusing a combination of instantaneous, very highly damaging stabs, arcing long-lasting kicks, and full plate armour, does not a good player make.

EDIT: i mean for real, i'm 15/27 9 Weapon master in 1h, playing practically naked with a 99 speed 1h, and even with this massive weapon speed bonus (7 more speed) and the massive WPF bonus (~~ 70 more effective WPF), a leftswing from my weapon (which is much shorter and provides much less damage), can never even come close to outspeeding his awlpike. what's up with that.
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Jarlek on November 17, 2013, 01:39:12 am
no, it's definitely about the weapon. i'm sorry but knitler's not bad, but he's not that good that he gets those scores. abusing a combination of instantaneous, very highly damaging stabs, arcing long-lasting kicks, and full plate armour, does not a good player make.
Not my words.

EDIT: Funny how falka minuses it, even when it's something I posted for someone else.

Wololo.
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Gurnisson on November 17, 2013, 01:44:07 am
4,37 ratio as 2d polearm
10 ratio as hoplite

nerf hoplite
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Jarlek on November 17, 2013, 01:46:37 am
4,37 ratio as 2d polearm
10 ratio as hoplite

nerf hoplite
90 KDD as hoplite
118 KDD as awlpike

nerf awlpike
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Falka on November 17, 2013, 01:49:37 am
EDIT: Funny how falka minuses it, even when it's something I posted for someone else.

I "-"ed your post cause it's apparenty what you expected:

wanted me to post this for him so they would minus me instead of him

I didn't want to dissapoint you. But also I don't agree with your/Knitler's statement.

Btw, it's cute that you check who minused your posts...
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Sari on November 17, 2013, 01:52:03 am
I find hoplite very effective in battle. Been on top of the team couple of times.
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Corsair831 on November 17, 2013, 01:55:01 am
i think it's quite apparent that the thing which really needs nerfing is this instantaneous crpg stab; why is it faster for the longest ranged attack (which also does the most damage), with lower WPF, than it is to do a leftswing with a faster weapon's attack (which is also the shortest attack) ?
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Teeth on November 17, 2013, 11:53:25 am
10 ratio as hoplite
Pics or it didn't happen.
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Knitler on November 17, 2013, 11:55:12 am
Knitler told me to post these two screens and text for him:
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)

It's not about the weapon, but the player behind it.
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Teeth on November 17, 2013, 12:21:35 pm
Ah, he was referring to those pictures, thought he was talking about his own k/d with the classes. Basing any balance argument on two strat battles is highly problematic of course. First of all a Strat battle is completely unrepresentative for pub gameplay. Second of all these two battles were clearly very different. With the first one being a clear rape, with everyone having a very high k/d relatively. Also one is a siege defense and the other a field battle.
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Kafein on November 17, 2013, 12:41:16 pm
A target switch will not always work against an hoplite because they have shields, but I don't think this is much of an argument in favor of hoplites. An awlpiker is the absolute worst candidate for target switching as the instant he understands you are switching he will release and therefore hit you first. It depends on which awlpiker we are talking about but I doubt many people here would often get knitler this way.
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Knitler on November 17, 2013, 01:14:50 pm
Ah, he was referring to those pictures, thought he was talking about his own k/d with the classes. Basing any balance argument on two strat battles is highly problematic of course. First of all a Strat battle is completely unrepresentative for pub gameplay. Second of all these two battles were clearly very different. With the first one being a clear rape, with everyone having a very high k/d relatively. Also one is a siege defense and the other a field battle.

Uhm,... both were field battles, one time as defender and one time as attacker (but you know how it works, everybody attacks)...Dont mind that siegetower XD
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Leshma on November 17, 2013, 02:33:48 pm
Well to be perfectly honest, they were attacking both times. We just had superior tactics (and players).

For me, strat battle feels like I'm playing on NA1 and NA strat battle feels like I'm playing on CHN1. You probably have better PC, capable of dealing with so many players.

What interest me, will awlpike be nerfed or not? I want to respec to polearm, that's why I'm asking.
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Butan on November 17, 2013, 03:06:51 pm
Its really up to discussion whether or not nerfing those insta-stab high-damage polearms, since you still have to "wiggle" them somewhat skillfully to enjoy those stabs in close quarter, else it would glance like most weapons. This wiggling is present in most stabbing weapons so its hard to draw a line.
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Leshma on November 17, 2013, 03:09:53 pm
Used to be true, not so much these days. I've got 1 wpf in polearms but from time to time I pick up MW Awlpike from the ground and somehow, it haven't glanced a single time (got 6 PS). Haven't experienced long stab stun, if I get stunned it lasts friction of a second which is a lot shorter compared to stab stun on my twohanded sword with 120 effective wpf. Same story with new 1h stab, also got 1 wpf in it and haven't glanced with regular Side Sword.

Can't wait for wpf overhaul, won't have to worry about these things anymore because I'll have wpf in every melee proficiencies.
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Butan on November 17, 2013, 03:18:21 pm
I tried to pick them up with 1WPF too and I sucked at CQC  :P

Maybe you have some polearmer reflex which some havent, thus one could say you still got to be good to use the stab polearms; we could discuss if the same amount of "skill" would be as efficient with different weapons and weapons type.
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: Leshma on November 17, 2013, 03:45:00 pm
Probably it has something to do with 24 AGI and 8 ATH :wink:
Title: Re: Awlpikes and 2D vs Hoplite which do you fear more?
Post by: RuanXiaoQi on November 17, 2013, 04:48:04 pm
awlpiker is more scareful to me