cRPG
Strategus => Strategus General Discussion => Topic started by: Torben on May 14, 2011, 01:31:49 pm
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Hi there!
Im a dedicated Lancer, and I agree that any skilled cav has an easy game on the common cRPG battle servers. Of course we love it :)
You can nerf all you want, the skilled cavman will always have an advantage over the unorganized crowd. There is no way around it, because we are faster and therefor are able to exploit any weakness we see in the formations within seconds.
So I rly aint pissed at all about the cav nerfes concerning cRPG, actually I enjoyed the time no one had heirlooms and the battlefield was evened out.
However I worry about the upcoming strategus, aswell as organized clan battles, where we are mearly a support troup, our light horses being canon fudder for skilled archers and xbow men, organized infantry with pikemen watching out for us...
We need our speed and manuverability to have any role in future battles. Please take this into consideration when thinking about future changes.
EDIT:
I dont want to start a discussion about the OP cav on the common server, I stated above that I understand that. Just wanted to counter the ongoing cav-whine with reason. Beeing that cav is not OP considering organized battles
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Hi there!
Im a dedicated Lancer, and I agree that any skilled cav has an easy game on the common cRPG battle servers. Of course we love it :)
You can nerf all you want, the skilled cavman will always have an advantage over the unorganized crowd. There is no way around it, because we are faster and therefor are able to exploit any weakness we see in the formations within seconds.
So I rly aint pissed at all about the cav nerfes concerning cRPG, actually I enjoyed the time no one had heirlooms and the battlefield was evened out.
However I worry about o the upcoming strategus, aswell as organized clan battles, where we are mearly a support troup, our light horses being canon fudder for skilled archers and xbow men, organized infantry with pikemen watching out for us...
We need our speed and manuverability to have any role in future battles. Please take this into consideration when thinking about future changes.
thats pretty much why many cav players have top scores
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+1
Teamwork is lacking, and the lack thereof clouds the minds of those who suicide out there.
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CRPG: Because all those silly people with pikes are going after infantry instead of horsies.
I personally don't think CAV needs a buff or change in Strategus at all (based on their performance in CRPG), what you are asking for is being able to take on even organized crowds on your own, in Strategus cav should be used as you would in real life, e.g. organize something WITH your infantry to flank/ambush or whatever, for example having an infantry group attack and as soon as they're engaged cav moves in to clean house because everyone is focused on the infantry, pretty much what a lot of cav do on the battle servers, wait for people to engage and voilà free buffet, in Strat your enemy most likely have people organized to watch for cav but that's what you as a team need to counter.
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My friend, you misunderstood. Im not asking to be a one man army, im only suggesting to do the balancing not only regarding cRPG (with all the cRPG whine going on) but also strategus. As im a cavman i can only speak for this class.
As of now I see things balanced, but I wanted to counter the ongoing whine about making horses even slower, less manuverable etc.
edit: ill put that in OP
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I don't see how cav can be usefull when sieging a town, but i'm pretty sure a well organized charge can easily slaughter infantry in plains and such.
At the moment, cavs are ruling battles WITHOUT being organized, when facing UNORGANIZED infantry.
When this is fixed, i don't see how it will nerf an organized cavalry charge. Of course, an organized charge into an organized pikewall will always be a fail, and that's normal.
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I don't see how cav can be usefull when sieging a town, but i'm pretty sure a well organized charge can easily slaughter infantry in plains and such.
At the moment, cavs are ruling battles WITHOUT being organized, when facing UNORGANIZED infantry.
When this is fixed, i don't see how it will nerf an organized cavalry charge. Of course, an organized charge into an organized pikewall will always be a fail, and that's normal.
Bulzur makes the point that you put into your own text. You said you fight unorganised crowds but on strategus you become a support class, why? Because people in strategus are organised, so you cannot pick people off so easily. No class will always be "the one to go for" or will always have an advantage despite what some people say, I mean the number of times you've tried charging at me, i've shot your horse dead and managed to get the upper hand for a few seconds is countless, the same with the number of times that you've just shoved the lance through my head, i've sworn at you and you've carried on to kill a couple more people.
This also points towards the fact that I will shoot at the people at the top of the enemy scoreboard because I know that they're either going to be cav or 2 handers/polearms, my two worst nightmares.
And besides, strategus isn't running as of yet so we can't completely tell ;)
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The way to balance cav certainly isn't increasing maneuver and speed, which are allready too high. Simply no. Buff charge and armor instead, lower the upkeep for armoured horses... Buffing light cav even further would be idiotic. In Strat battles, light cav will and is supposed to have a minimal role.
Also, don't forget organizing cav is much much harder than organizing archers and footmen. It takes a good bit of discipline to get the basics done, like not zigzagging as usual (because it blocks teammates and you want to keep people very close to each other), charging only from one side (because cav collision usually means death for both) and so on. A simple turn is usually a nightmare in a cav group.
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well, i think we'll see how the strategus battles will go.
In old strategus cav had merely a supporting role, and using it from frontal (and even side and rear) charges was impossible, while heavy horses weren't affordable to buy. But now that bows are nerfed maybe we got more chances.
But yes i always tough that strat needs a different balance then crpg, not only for cav but also for other classes as well.
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i just hope there will be possibility to play open field maps in strategus, not just village/castle defense maps, than it might be somewhat useful although it might be a bit hard with the 300 reach pikes in the enemy team
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well, i think we'll see how the strategus battles will go.
In old strategus cav had merely a supporting role, and using it from frontal (and even side and rear) charges was impossible, while heavy horses weren't affordable to buy. But now that bows are nerfed maybe we got more chances.
But yes i always tough that strat needs a different balance then crpg, not only for cav but also for other classes as well.
woha, sharky seems to be the only one getting my point. is my post written so damn criptic? Im saying that all the cav-whining shouldnt be accounted for in terms of cav in starategus, because there (and in any organized battle), the cav isnt op.
Started the thread not because of made but future changes.
and yeah, more hitpins instead of speed/manuver is a good way aswell, as this patch already did it.
tenne, i rly dont want a class to go for, i want everybody to have strengths and weaknesses. mine are good archers like you, and used to be throwers. im sad they god nerfed so bad although i hated them. i just want a fighting chance in an organized battle not to have to resolve to solemly backstabbing and sneaking and whatever. this still is possible now, if the cavtactics are in place. Rly, just a counter post to all the whining.
other way around, do you guys think cav should be nerved?
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I think we need more forms to organize the army on MP battles.
Like a commander, or divide by groups like in battlefield.
Pople just dont play their roles.
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In the same way that an organised team has a better defence against cav, an organised team should be able to better use their own cavalry at the same time.
I havent really played Cav but I'm speaking from a 2h players point of view who's been in many strat battles - as many as most and I would say Cav is played differently than on a pub server.
I think it will be harder for the individual but thats the same for every class imo in strat. You have to be more teamworky (unless you're Dima_Urban) to be successful.
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Torben (and all other competent horsemen I know) get 98 % of their kills by backstabbing unaware infantry. Thats how cav is played in crpg, because its too weak to fight face to face.
In organized battles noone would hire horsemen because a horse is simply too expensive to get killed by two arrows.
The only place I see for horsemen in Strategus is to go after enemy archers that are running away from shielders.
As long its only allowed to fight with your main in Strategus, noone who can play another class will make his cav char as its main, you cant use it in sieges, and it needs tons of awareness to be not a total fail in Strategus open battles.
Also, when you have problems dealing with Dima, hire me and make sure noone interrupts.
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TBH if the new Strategos gets even remotely similar to the old one (70% bowmen, 20% crossbowmen, 10% cannon fodder) you wont get to live long and prosperous in it, Torben.....and especially your beloved horse. On battle servers you can enjoy your backstabbing due to huge numbers of blind morons who cant be bothered to shoot the horses or watch their back but in an organized battle where they concentrate on you - your destination is Valhalla.
I do, however, believe that even there (Strat) you'll do your job cause most of the battles will be filled with desperate randoms who got nothing better to do but apply as mercenaries for every battle they can get their hands on, and they get hired cause people of the clans have real life responsibilities or the clans simply lack people on their rosters . For you it all depends on numbers: how many people of the same clan will stand on the other side of the battlefield. If its mostly clanmates filled with radnomers - you die.....if its the other way around - you win.
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Good thread Torben!
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I did never play Strategus, because when I found crpg, it was almost over. But I can imagine that trying to fight organized infantry is next to impossible. The problem is that the balance for battleservers and strategus is the same?
When they are matched as 1v1 in battle servers, the cost for strategus should be altered. Which is almost impossible due to the different kinds of cav. Nobody would say that a horsearcher is a balanced 1v1 toon.
Well no idea, you guys figure something out
@Gnujs, I like your new avatar hehe
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Cavalry was only useful for shock tactics in strategus, even with plated chargers cav could be taken out easily by a unified force of 10+ pikemen on the enemy team. Hopefully this will change, but as far as being able to charge an enemy line and actually win is... unlikely in strategus (1.0, anyway).
The problem is that the balance for battleservers and strategus is the same?
Not really.. cRPG is a mass of unorganized rabble. Strategus is (sometimes rabble depending on the faction, and...) mostly unified groups or shieldwalls and pikes and archer volleys making cavalry extremely difficult to play and use.
Also, as horse archers are pretty good (if played smartly) in cRPG, they are not that effective in strategus if the enemy concentrates fire.
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cav was an practical support class in strate, when played by pro horseman off course :mrgreen:
the most important thing was to get randomers to not take the horses and waste them :rolleyes:
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the most important thing was to get randomers to not take the horses and waste them :rolleyes:
Thats was one of the main drawbacks of horses in strategus, they are so expensive that no one would allow random neutral people to just use them, reserving them for their alliances few known riders.
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well there were neutral riders too where you knew they followed orders and knew how play, but yeah given the price and some experiences with some randomers, it was sadly the way to go :rolleyes:
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ya, I´ve never participated in a strat battle but I pretty much figure that our horses and us will have a hard time. meh. ^^
and now tell me about this fabled Dima_Urban
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and now tell me about this fabled Dima_Urban
He was too good for the game, so he decided to buy ~10 more warband keys and opened a clan full of him and his alts. He sometimes plays all chars at the same time.
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He was too good for the game, so he decided to buy ~10 more warband keys and opened a clan full of him and his alts. He sometimes plays all chars at the same time.
indeed :mrgreen:
he was/is a 1h+shield with a slashing red ponytail from the RuConquista.
pre patch he trimmed the stats to uber scimi speeds + he has very good fighting skills and anti enemy group powers :P
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I remember a battle (seariders vs someone, maybe fallens) when dima just camped near the enemy spawn, behind a tent, for several minutes.
He was alone, naked with just a scimitar and an huscarl shield, fighting 6 7 ppl at the same time, doing shitloads of kills and never dying.
Then the searider commander said "wtf is doing at their spawn" and another searider "dima knows what he's doing, let him stay". Epic.
He was quite good as a cavalrymen too
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Wasnt he like level 45?
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I was cav in almost every openfield battle and village attack I fought. The tactic was usually gather behind a hill/house, ride around together, rape their archers and die^^. But it was ok otherwise noone would have bought horses. If you kill 2 archers or perhaps some infantry you did good, you cant expect a kpd of 10 like on battle servers.
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Wasnt he like level 45?
Na, he just got 120 kills and 10 deaths for a majority of the battles. o_O
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Wasnt he like level 45?
Don't remember but yes he was one of the guys with most xp
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No im pretty sure he was super high level aswell.
Hes an awesome player but doest get over the point that alot of thongs will be dofferent now that most people will be about the same level.
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I think we need more forms to organize the army on MP battles.
Like a commander, or divide by groups like in battlefield.
Pople just dont play their roles.
+1
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I think alot of people forget that for the most part, all around the world for a long period of time, Cavalry WAS a support/shock role, if it wanted to be effective against most decent armies that is, there was a very small time period in history where Heavy Cavalry could just charge mindlessly head on into the enemy ranks and win, which is why tactics like the Hammer and Anvil exist.
Often the Cavalry from both armies would engage in attempt to beat the enemies cavalry and rout them from the field, allowing them to flank the enemies already engaged infantry, charge and cause a mass rout, or in Strategus's case, mass casualties and a loss of posistion for the enemy army.
Cavalry will be very effective in Strategus without a doubt, in field battles of course, aslong as it is used properly. Charging cavalry at an enemy force in a good hard-to-flank posistion, who are armed with bows, crossbows, pikes and what not would be stupid thing to do and I'm glad Strategus reflects on this. Just look at some of the English victories over the French during the 100 years war, posistioned well with covered flanks ( forests and other obstacles ), ranged superiority and the French Knights, who were highly trained, experienced and equipped, got owned, because they kept charging straight across the field at the English armies.
The kind of equipment and technology in weaponry that cRPG has suggests that the era of Heavy Cavalry trampling over whole armies is long gone and they must be used wisely if they are to be effective, but when they are used effectively, they can cause an insane amount of damage, just like in normal battle games.
But this is the reason why my Strategus character ( my main ) is a 1h/shield + some pole, with some riding, so I can use him as either Infantry or Light/Medium Cavalry.
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you mentioned you don't care so much about the cav nerf, let me guess why
because anything else got nerfed/balanced too?
You perhaps remember me carrying a bamboo spear, not killing you with it but stopping you and then unhorsing you with my main weapon. This isn't the case anymore and till throwing gets a serious buff those aren't a problem either and not anyone who was polearm and was carrying a pike does that now because he doesn't have enough slots or the nerf to pick up his pike after an infantry encounter.
So from my point of view cav wasn't really nerfed but indirectly buffed, more then other classes through the last 2 patches. This isn't only my opinion but that of several cavs i have spoken to and not only out of my clan.
If strategus will be there, there will always be a chance to encounter moving troops while not at a castle or a town, if those aren't with protection but pure siege troops, my guess is they can be easily taken care of.
Also i am too seeing the counter argument as others in your statement. In crpg we are more unorganized which makes cav superior backstabers in strategus through organization this perhaps gets balanced out.
But as long strategus in its new form isn't here, who can tell for sure :)
cya in battle
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There is many 1 slot sheathable weapon to stop a cav, fork, spear, etc...
Also, you can work with your teammate, piker will protect you against cav and you will protect them against infantry.
That's what is about Strategus, i understand that a cav could have problem to find his place in Strategus armies.
I guess cav will need new tactics, acting more like a group, i almost never see an organized charge from cavs in cRPG.
I hope that the clan specialized in cav will show great things and epic charge in Strategus.
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There is many 1 slot sheathable weapon to stop a cav, fork, spear, etc...
Also, you can work with your teammate, piker will protect you against cav and you will protect them against infantry.
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137 length isn't anything worth even thinking about against lances with 180+ length.
If you are with your clanmates and you are lucky and have dedicated pikemen then that is surly a nice thing,
but how many archers are unprotected in the public servers get either lanced by horses or backstabed by me :)
Besides i really enjoyed the challange going against cav with my bamboo spear although i mostly died in that attempt. That is the one change through the slot/sheatable balancing i really feel bad about.
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organizing infantry makes them highly more effective in countering cav than organizing cav fostering its effectiveness against organized inf.
I´d say it comes down to Leesins post. +1
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stand alone that is. as support organized cav is sth different
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Let's hope we'll see some regular "plain" maps, instead of just siege like maps. Organized cavalry charges would be Freaking Epic.
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Organized cavalry charges would be Freaking Epic.
I keep saying that for ages but that's not where this mod is heading, and it never was. :wink:
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It's not really related to the mod, it's just how the game works. It's possible to pull off formations etc sometimes, but as a general rule operating as a rigidly organized and tightly-knit group will always be a handicap rather than an advantage. I love doing it, too, but generally players favor winning over coolness.
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yes, unlike real life where formations were needed to ensure that fights could work well together or they died. In this game you can die, learn from that mistake and carry on. As such personal skill develops beyond any great NEED for tactics. Especially when a.) heavy cavalry is by nature of the game fairly weak and b.) people who use fast agile horses can rambo relatively easily.
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generally players favor winning over coolness.
where we r at it i want a sweet pair of shades to go with my nordic worlord helmet.
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I totally disagree that cav formations will not be effective in organized battles. They play a great strategic and tactical role because of their rapid maneuverability and flanking potential. Even 5 cav in a line charging a flank is a huge distraction that can't be ignored without consequence. You simply need the right leadership, timing, and situational awareness to be a huge asset to your team.
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I am killing most of cavalry with my Longsword only, if you know what you are doing they can't realy do anything. :|
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Cavalry charge with horses in cRPG dying so fast = impossible.
In native - perhaps.
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Anyway, "cav formations" are impossible, you can do them before the charge, but after that you must split otherwise other horses will stop you or you will not be able to avoid enemy infantry.
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Anyway, "cav formations" are impossible, you can do them before the charge, but after that you must split otherwise other horses will stop you or you will not be able to avoid enemy infantry.
I dunno 10-20 unified great lancers in formation charging a group of inf would be pretty terrifying.
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I dunno 10-20 unified great lancers in formation charging a group of inf would be pretty terrifying.
it looks epic, but history of strategus tells a different story: lots of dead horses :mrgreen:
only if one has way to much money and buys plated chargers etc. it's works for a while, but only for while though :twisted:
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Honestly anything higher than cataphracts fail in strat
if u wanna win open field maps you want coursers, destriers, and cataphracts.
Everything else is trivial
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Morale shock in cRPG is pretty much non-existent.
When you arent as dearly attached to your life as in real life, you can do suicidal counter attacks more often and stand your ground.
At the worst people will retreat until they form a group of soldiers that can easily stop a cav charge if they have a numbers of pike at least equal to their file number.
A cavalry charge of one rank deep, even going at top speed, is very to stop in cRPG, the horse just stops or die from a single poke, and the horse itself doesnt interfere with the pike formation when dying on them.
It would be equally as hard to form such a charge as it is easy to spot from the defender's point of view and interfere with it.
My idea of an efficient charge would be more like a harrasing formation ( doing like in cRPG battle then ) or multiple single/double file charge in the flank or back, charging exclusively if the point of impact isnt covered by more than 2 or 3 pole wielders, and never bet all your cavalry in a single charge ( doing a hammer and anvil delayed double cav charge could be interesting to see, if the defenders arent aware of the second vague! ).
And im not even talking of the infantry role in this, as they can draw attention of the entire opposite army if done properly, letting cav organize a charge or just pick some target easily.
I'm curious if some old strategus players could share more light on this matter.
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Old strategus had OP archers, so many things were useless. Balance changed, nobody knows what we will see now. I think that cav will be powerfull, but expensive.
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Morale shock in cRPG is pretty much non-existent.
Hahhahaha. So not true, it's funny. Yes, morale shock is less in cRPG than in real life. But trust me, it's here and it's BIG. Psychological effects are huge in cRPG. The mob is easily disheartened and people tend to panic and run A LOT... :)
Also, cav is amazingly good at surrounding and forcing teams to face multiple directions, thus decreasing their effectiveness big time.
About organized cav 'charges', viable to a lesser degree. I'd look at cav as a mobile support unit that can work wonders when two infantry armies clash.
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Hahhahaha. So not true, it's funny. Yes, morale shock is less in cRPG than in real life. But trust me, it's here and it's BIG. Psychological effects are huge in cRPG. The mob is easily disheartened and people tend to panic and run A LOT... :)
Also, cav is amazingly good at surrounding and forcing teams to face multiple directions, thus decreasing their effectiveness big time.
About organized cav 'charges', viable to a lesser degree. I'd look at cav as a mobile support unit that can work wonders when two infantry armies clash.
I agree with all of this
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The mob is easily disheartened and people tend to panic and run A LOT... :)
Not so much as to try and flee the battlefield, which is impossible.
But I agree that individually, players tend to try and spot every possible threat to their existences by looking over their shoulder now and again (those who dont just die a lance in the back of the head), and cavs are good at creating multiple fronts.
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Hahhahaha. So not true, it's funny. Yes, morale shock is less in cRPG than in real life. But trust me, it's here and it's BIG. Psychological effects are huge in cRPG. The mob is easily disheartened and people tend to panic and run A LOT... :)
Also, cav is amazingly good at surrounding and forcing teams to face multiple directions, thus decreasing their effectiveness big time.
About organized cav 'charges', viable to a lesser degree. I'd look at cav as a mobile support unit that can work wonders when two infantry armies clash.
That's the way cav works in cRPG, and it's 99,999% light cavalry.
Heavy cavalry, however, is capable of charging in organised groups and really use the power of a one way charge to it's best (charge, hit, run for the whole group). When horses get armor, they are capable of surviving hard contact with anything the enemy has, thus the power resides in the capacity of outnumbering the enemy locally with the speed of cavalry and the clever choice of where to attack. If some cavalrymen are stopped by a pike in the process, it's no big deal since the other defences are occupied by other horsemen and they can catch up. If the whole cavalry unit carries on, concentrates on moving and not killing, then regroups elsewhere, it can soon do another devastating charge.