cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Dionysus on October 25, 2013, 10:18:21 am

Title: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community... [EDITED]
Post by: Dionysus on October 25, 2013, 10:18:21 am
I am going to totally revise this post, but if you would like to see the original, hit the spoiler below.

Are there classes in cRPG? If so, what are they, and what are their roles? If there aren't classes, is that a good thing?
Should all playstyles be equally dangerous/risky?
Do balance issues lie in builds, weapons, or both if either?

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Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: Chasey on October 25, 2013, 11:06:24 am
Your first 4 points are basically complaining that people can do well with any weapon any class. Isn't that the point of crpg, build your class your own way and rape with it.
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: Kafein on October 25, 2013, 11:15:52 am
After reading OP, I don't understand what the complaint is or about what my opinion is asked
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: Panos_ on October 25, 2013, 11:17:43 am
*comment about how much I hate 2handers*
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: Torben on October 25, 2013, 12:25:18 pm
After reading op, I don't understand what the complaint is or about what my opinion is asked °-o.0-°
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: Boerenlater on October 25, 2013, 12:34:38 pm
After reading op, I don't understand what the complaint is or about what my opinion is asked ( ಠ ಠ )
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: Brrrak on October 25, 2013, 12:55:36 pm
OP.

Complaints?

Opinions?

Mine!?

Emoticon.
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on October 25, 2013, 12:56:31 pm
wat
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: MURDERTRON on October 25, 2013, 02:41:41 pm
Take your white privilege somewhere else.
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: [ptx] on October 25, 2013, 02:49:45 pm
After reading op, I don't understand what the complaint is or about what my opinion is asked ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

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Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: Prpavi on October 25, 2013, 02:55:18 pm
After reading op, I don't understand what the complaint is or about what my opinion is asked o.O'
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: Daunt_Flockula on October 25, 2013, 03:02:46 pm
I don't understand why people have to think so hard about the damn game.

1) It's a game that literally created a genre by itself.

2) It's a great game and imitators out there have all failed to match its prowess by far.

3) The mod makes it a lot greater.

4) The mod is fun.

5) All classes and builds are perfectly viable as long as you know how to play.

6) There is no point in meticulously criticizing every single bit of it.

7) Just have fun dammit.
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: Thomek on October 25, 2013, 03:18:18 pm
* I would like to take this opportunity to ask the community: is the great thing about cRPG that the player can do whatever he or she wants?

Yes!

Imo one of the most important and slightly forgotten core elements of cRPG is that it is personal.

(The amount of look and equipment variations is VAST. Just different armor combo's with armor, helmets, gloves and boots amount to over 21 million different armor setups if my calculations are not wrong.. which they might be. This is before counting in heraldry and weapons, shields and horses..)

In like, you recognize other players by their outfit, you know who they are, they know you, you might have an idea of their skill and your chances to beat them.

Most other games have much more generic outfits, if they have personalization at all. Or they are shooters where kills often occur at great distances where you have no chance to tell who is who anyway. (Only by nick)

It could be that a certain amount of that personal feel comes from the fact that it's a small community where people mostly play one or two servers, but I still think that feel would carry over into a bigger game if gamedevs realized.

This is also why it's important for gameplay that weapons and armors are balanced in such a way that there is few or no sweetspots. (Aka Kuyak clones and the previous hegemony of greatswords.) Sweetspots reduce diversification, and thus the personal feel.

The other main point is of course superior melee mechanics.
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: dynamike on October 25, 2013, 04:28:20 pm
After reading OP, I asked my girlfriend to make me a sandwich and she complied because essentially my gf is my hand (\('.')/)
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: MURDERTRON on October 25, 2013, 04:53:09 pm
Shouldn't your 10th complaint be Firebus?
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: Penitent on October 25, 2013, 05:06:59 pm
After reading op, I don't understand what the complaint is or about I tragedy.
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: RobertOfDrugsley on October 25, 2013, 05:11:06 pm
After reading op, I'm getting the feeling of being watched, like something terrible is lurking at the edge of my vision, something which my brain could not fully comprehend and which would send me spiraling into madness should I managed to lay eyes on it. I'm getting increasingly convinced that there are horrors in the universe which no human should ever know of. When the stars are right, HE will once again walk the Earth - and to him, we re but a bacteria or moss on the planet surface. Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: Tore on October 25, 2013, 05:13:12 pm
buff throwing
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on October 25, 2013, 05:13:42 pm
I wish we had a better XP/Gold system.  I don't like that the richest people in the game are leeching peasants, not the people putting on heavy armor and killing the most enemies.  That being said, I have no idea how you'd rectify the situation.  If you rewarded the best people in the best equipment, it would make it impossible to ever get over the peasant stage.
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: Warborn304 on October 25, 2013, 06:45:50 pm

  • Everyone can be a hero, because every playstyle is viable. Every playstyle has its dangers, none of which are incredibly debilitating because...
  • ... there are is a standard 30 points to be distributed to other skills, which is far too many to force players into a build.*
  • The model of gameplay is based off Native singleplayer, where the player is supposed to be a hero.
  • There is no class system, creating a nebulous mess of playstyles which cannot be balanced.
  • Community trends caused by the "flavors of the month" (This has been buffed, so let's all use it!)
  • Buffed and nerfed weapons for seemingly arbitrary reasons. (Why is a voulge so terrible?)
  • OSP resources adding dynamic armors, covering varieties of armor and weapons that were not contemporaries by 1000 years. Why would anyone wear chainmail when it is possible to wear 15th-16th century Italian and German steel armors? Probably because of how much money it costs...
  • ... which is negated after you sell your first loom point.
  • There is no depth to the mod; how do I explain this mod to people who have never heard of Warband?

YEAH, FUCK TWO HAND HEROES, LETS NERF THEM MORE.

I read right through this post and you are clearly complaining about 2h flavor of the month heroes, who change their weapon based on nerf/buffs, that sell an heirloom point in order to wear plate. Thus there is no depth to the mod.

You can send payments to me for this concise summary if you wish...
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: Prpavi on October 25, 2013, 06:53:30 pm
This mod is about year and a half past it's prime, doubt any groundbreaking features that will revive the mod will be implemented, time for you all to accept it as it is in this moment a mere pre alpha, a testing ground for something bigger and better hopefully.

Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on October 25, 2013, 07:03:19 pm
I mean, I guess you have a point about gold being useless.

I sold a loompoint and literally never even though about my pretend monies ever again. I actually like not having to care about money, but it still being there. Kinda weird, but that's what it is. All your other points are gay gay gay gay
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: Teeth on October 25, 2013, 07:33:27 pm
This game needs more freedom. Remove looms, fix everyone's level at 35 and allow players to respec their characters as they please. You could use every item and every build you desire instantly to it's full efficiency without it ever costing effort or leaving you at a disadvantage. No_bullshit_just_play.

As I had no clue what the OP is trying to discuss I pooped out my vision of cRPG, sorry.
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: Tears of Destiny on October 25, 2013, 07:56:05 pm
I like the OP's name as it reminds me of a Chinese dinosaur writing a thesis while wearing a cap and swinging a sword and that's just a really cool mental image.
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: Mammonist on October 25, 2013, 07:56:54 pm
Upon closely reviewing thine post, I do not seem to comprehend the protest in said post is or that about which my opinion is requested ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: sF_Guardian on October 25, 2013, 07:57:28 pm
Blub.
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: Matey on October 25, 2013, 08:04:39 pm
My policy which I mostly stick to (except when I'm shooting melee people with an xbow instead of stabbing them) is as follows:
If I find that some item/feature/build/whatever makes me hate the mod then I don't use it in the hopes that I won't make other people the mod.

I realize it is a futile effort though as people hate my shield and I'm not giving it up.
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: Tears of Destiny on October 25, 2013, 08:05:39 pm
I realize it is a futile effort though as people hate my shield swag style and I'm not giving it up.
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: Warborn304 on October 25, 2013, 08:12:26 pm
This mod is about year and a half past it's prime, doubt any groundbreaking features that will revive the mod will be implemented, time for you all to accept it as it is in this moment a mere pre alpha, a testing ground for something bigger and better hopefully.

You're so optimistic about the new ball of shit the devs are working on. I on the other hand realize that if they can't tend to the cattle they have now, why would they take on another?
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: Falka on October 25, 2013, 08:12:57 pm
My policy which I mostly stick to (except when I'm shooting melee people with an xbow instead of stabbing them) is as follows:
If I find that some item/feature/build/whatever makes me hate the mod then I don't use it in the hopes that I won't make other people the mod.

I realize it is a futile effort though as people hate my shield and I'm not giving it up.

I try to do the same. Not playing ranged classes isnt any sacrifice from my side as I find them boring, but though I liek 1h cav I don't play it any more, cause I hate cav :P Even don't play shielder any more cause ppl were saying there's too many shielders. And Skono still says that I play 1h no shield only cause it's OP  :(

Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: Falka on October 25, 2013, 08:14:22 pm
You're so optimistic about the new ball of shit the devs are working on. I on the other hand realize that if they can't tend to the cattle they have now, why would they take on another?

Maybe they're busy with their "new ball of shit", eh?

Damn, sowwy  :oops:
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on October 25, 2013, 08:15:32 pm
You're so optimistic about the new ball of shit the devs are working on. I on the other hand realize that if they can't tend to the cattle they have now, why would they take on another?

They're working on the new ball.  They've done one hell of a great job keeping this ball inflated and shiny as long as they have.  crpg is easily the best mod of Warband, and is still one of the best multiplayer games around. 
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: Grumbs on October 25, 2013, 08:31:13 pm
1-4 summarised as lack of class system results in OP characters that can do everything.

Don't agree with that because everyone is skill and stat capped which creates unique classes for each player. You can't be a great horse rider as well as a great foot soldier and great archer etc. You sacrifice one thing for another. This only works when each unique ability requires points put into something though, OR if you can't physically use or carry multiple role's items at the same time. Most things in the game do need you to sacrifice one thing for another, but it is too easy to have multiple roles when it comes to ranged with good melee. I don't believe in rock/paper/scissors though, ideally each class should at least be able to defend against other classes even if they have a poor chance to damage them, as long as they play well. Then teamwork should come in so the classes work together to take out threats

There is generally good balance when it comes to intra melee balance. Fighting between different melee guys is not totally impossible, but improvement does need to be made with some classes. This is when the game is most balanced

5+6, flavour of the month and nerfs/buffs

Keeps the game fresh, nerfs/buffs make for more fun gameplay if they are warranted. People gonna people, can't really stop them using trends (doesn't mean something is OP just because people use it). Could do with a more active and varied item balance team, but the actual devs are busy with their next game

7+8, hodgepodge of gear, gold

I like that the game is only semi realistic, I'd rather have more gear variety than make everyone wear the historically correct gear. I wish there were more heraldic armours so we had even more ways to distinguish players. Gold is actually very valuable to me. If you want to never use looms and you retire then you will be swimming in gold, but thankfully the game isn't balanced so much on repair costs.

9, depth

There is shit tonnes of depth in cRPG. If someone never played Warband there is even more to talk about. Strat, character builds, loads of ways to look nearly unique, big battles with actual team work, best medieval fighting game on the market etc. You can still improve as a player years after you started, and learn new stuff

Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: Micah on October 25, 2013, 10:09:03 pm
(click to show/hide)
I do disagree here.
A core factor thats making the game as addictive as it is, is that you have to invest alot of time into leveling your char and build it to its final, planned build - aka. you work for it.
Without this factor - meaning, you could respec without cost - the aquired level and the picked build loses alot of "meaning" if you can change it arbitrarily ~ or to be more specific "the buildorder" for your char - since you will propably plan ahead. on how you spend skillpoints "on the way" to the desired maxlevel (be it 31 or 35)...
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: Dionysus on October 25, 2013, 10:19:17 pm
Sorry, folks. Wrote this out late in the morning when I couldn't sleep, so sorry about the structure. I'll add in a concrete question for you to answer.

I never meant to come off as complaining. To Warborn specifically, I am not complaining about any weapon in particular. The first four points outline what I feel is a lack of role in this game. Without classes, the game becomes a rock-paper-scissors game where rock, paper, and scissors can always beat each other, just in their own unique way.

The point of my thread is, shockingly enough, not to complain. I am a trying to stir up discussion. I made nine points for any of you to cite and comment on, add on to, or refute.

Your first 4 points are basically complaining that people can do well with any weapon any class. Isn't that the point of crpg, build your class your own way and rape with it.

Certainly did not mean to come off as complaining, but I had originally written it has a lack of classes in general.

I don't understand why people have to think so hard about the damn game.

1) It's a game that literally created a genre by itself.

2) It's a great game and imitators out there have all failed to match its prowess by far.

3) The mod makes it a lot greater.

4) The mod is fun.

5) All classes and builds are perfectly viable as long as you know how to play.

6) There is no point in meticulously criticizing every single bit of it.

7) Just have fun dammit.

I don't think the mod isn't fun, I just am curious as to how other feel about builds and classes, if there are any.
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: Tears of Destiny on October 26, 2013, 02:13:40 am
You're so optimistic about the new ball of shit the devs are working on. I on the other hand realize that if they can't tend to the cattle they have now, why would they take on another?


Might have something to do with him reading regular dev news/feedback/etc on that new ball of shit, and you being left in the dark.


*shrugs*


It's a whole different animal; manhours, care, feedback, etc, all different.
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: Kalam on October 26, 2013, 08:26:53 am
EDIT: I don't know if its the constant negativity due to the usual discussions on the forums, but I want to point out that this is not the product of X class killing me repeatedly. This is about the effectiveness of every class, and whether you think it is balanced and fair. I am not complaining; I merely want to discuss our opinions on the nature of cRPG's gameplay.

Hello, everyone. I spent some time writing everything out into paragraphs, but I don't want to waste anyone's time. I have listed some things that have irked me for quite some time, most if not all of which my fellow clanmates can recite due to how incessantly I repeat them. These following bullets are a list of issues I have with the mod and its gameplay, and I would like to stress these are my observations, biased and rose-tinted. Please, share your opinions with me.
  • Everyone can be a hero, because every playstyle is viable. Every playstyle has its dangers, none of which are incredibly debilitating because...
  • ... there are is a standard 30 points to be distributed to other skills, which is far too many to force players into a build.*
  • The model of gameplay is based off Native singleplayer, where the player is supposed to be a hero.
  • There is no class system, creating a nebulous mess of playstyles which cannot be balanced.
  • Community trends caused by the "flavors of the month" (This has been buffed, so let's all use it!)
  • Buffed and nerfed weapons for seemingly arbitrary reasons. (Why is a voulge so terrible?)
  • OSP resources adding dynamic armors, covering varieties of armor and weapons that were not contemporaries by 1000 years. Why would anyone wear chainmail when it is possible to wear 15th-16th century Italian and German steel armors? Probably because of how much money it costs...
  • ... which is negated after you sell your first loom point.
  • There is no depth to the mod; how do I explain this mod to people who have never heard of Warband?
* I would like to take this opportunity to ask the community: is the great thing about cRPG that the player can do whatever he or she wants? If so, where does the blame fall when people cry out daily that something is overpowered? Is it the gameplay? The stats? The builds? The player? If it is really the player, what can he or she do to better his or her experience? How can that be balanced while affording players the freedoms they have now?

Unless the developers want to lose a tremendous portion of the community, there is nothing that can really be done to change the core gameplay. That's why we all stayed in the first place, right?

I would love to hear what you guys have to say, and thanks for taking the time out to give it a read.

Am I the only one who wanted a 13th-century combat simulator?

If you are confused because of my nine-point rambling, answer this question:
How is combat actually balanced? Do classes have specific roles, or is everyone supposed to be essentially a one man army?

1. because almost every time you 'die' in cRPG it's linked to a mistake you made.
2. Players are forced into a build more than they used to be. I'd argue to comfort with their individual playstyles is what allows hybrids and min maxers to exist, as opposed to regular specialized builds. This came with time. I'm not sure how to fix AND keep a similar dynamic. I'm not sure that it's a problem.
3. Yes, but nowhere did you feel more like a hero than cRPG in the old days, when you took on 13 people on won daily. They've changed that, and I think it's made cRPG a much more accessible game. The every-player-is-a-hero dynamic is key to most multiplayer games anyway. Yes, it doesn't need to be, but again, I'm not sure that it's a problem.
4. Yes, but FREEDOM. They can also be balanced individually, which is honestly enough at this.
5. This is endemic in all PvP centered games. Only way to stop it is permanent death MMO.
6. The reasons go back to past balance issues. Most nerfs/buffs do.
7. If you saw cRPG 2010, you'd realize that realism < fun. However, they did make a sort of commitment toward more realism, so I can only assume it's like the SCA. At least there are no period chocolate chip cookies.
8. A medieval game with persistent leveling and a great combat system.

You're not the only one, but I like what I found anyway. I know it's not, and never will be a simulator style game, though.

They've changed the gameplay significantly in one mega patch before. Most of the players stayed then. I imagine the same thing would happen again.

Things are balanced around individual gameplay. Funnest game mode, after all. Okay, real teamwork is great, but getting that is next to impossible. I don't remember seeing a perfectly executed crossfire + cav screen and shielder hammer+anvil this year. We're just too jaded and lazy as a community to do that, at the moment.
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: Akynos on October 28, 2013, 02:27:15 pm
. And Skono still says that I play 1h no shield only cause it's OP  :(

I didn't say that. I said that when you use 1h you win mainly because you are skilled enough to use it to its full capacity. Since the full capacity of it is OP in my view ( thrusts nudges spam blablabla) that makes your gameplay OP as well. Don't get me wrong, you are an excellent player, but what gets on my nerves is that you do not win most duels because you outplay, but because you 'abuse' the weapon. But hey, that doesn't mean that you're the only one, hell I also abuse 2h thrust by facehugging someone, looking at the sun then releasing ;) So I am not really raging vs you, but rather at what the weapon offers. When you played 2h vs me it was balanced ( save the WPF) and, to be honest, much more fun :)

Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community... [EDITED]
Post by: Joseph Porta on October 28, 2013, 05:18:20 pm
I am so confused where is the joke? I cant see it..
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community... [EDITED]
Post by: MURDERTRON on October 28, 2013, 06:44:35 pm
Most of this thread can be summarized by: Dionysus is a history nerd and would prefer historical accuracy over fun, which is why I secretly hate him.  Luckily his opinion is not a popular one within the community.

And if you really want a historically accurate game, you should go play a farming simulator.  There were many more peasants than knights.  But I guess you're the type to wonder what it would be like to give birth at age 11 then die immediately afterwards due to complications and shitty medicine... In first person.
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community... [EDITED]
Post by: Legs on October 28, 2013, 07:18:19 pm
Most of this thread can be summarized by: Dionysus is a history nerd and would prefer historical accuracy over fun, which is why I secretly hate him.  Luckily his opinion is not a popular one within the community.

And if you really want a historically accurate game, you should go play a farming simulator.  There were many more peasants than knights.  But I guess you're the type to wonder what it would be like to give birth at age 11 then die immediately afterwards due to complications and shitty medicine... In first person.

Have you ever played Real Lives?

Realistic character generation (etc) can actually be really fucking cool, and leads to emergent gameplay that you wouldn't experience if you were just playing some generic white male all the time.
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community... [EDITED]
Post by: MURDERTRON on October 28, 2013, 07:52:08 pm
I play not being a white male everyday of my life.  Check your privelage.
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community... [EDITED]
Post by: Tomas_Miles_again on October 28, 2013, 09:40:13 pm
I play not being a white male everyday of my life.  Check your privelage.
Not sure if serious or just a parody of PoC/minority gender identity emerging from social media with a strong voice and identity.
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community... [EDITED]
Post by: Dionysus on October 29, 2013, 03:22:07 am
Most of this thread can be summarized by: Dionysus is a history nerd and would prefer historical accuracy over fun, which is why I secretly hate him.  Luckily his opinion is not a popular one within the community.

And if you really want a historically accurate game, you should go play a farming simulator.  There were many more peasants than knights.  But I guess you're the type to wonder what it would be like to give birth at age 11 then die immediately afterwards due to complications and shitty medicine... In first person.

I don't remember mentioning anything about history besides the anachronistic armor being unbalanced due to the lack of repairs.

I don't want realism; that's what the Víkingr mod is for. Other RPG's generally have class systems which allow for more broad balance. X kills Y kills Z kills X, but in this game, that doesn't exist. I asked if that's good.
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community... [EDITED]
Post by: MURDERTRON on October 29, 2013, 04:41:40 am
I don't remember mentioning anything about history besides the anachronistic armor being unbalanced due to the lack of repairs.

I don't want realism; that's what the Víkingr mod is for. Other RPG's generally have class systems which allow for more broad balance. X kills Y kills Z kills X, but in this game, that doesn't exist. I asked if that's good.

That doesn't exist in such a linear format in this game because its extremely skill driven.  For example, you have archers taking out dedicated melee players in melee.  This isn't a strategy game.  Its like in a shooter game,  A sniper at range should have the advantage on a pointman with a shotgun.  But it doesn't always work out that way.

Not sure if serious or just a parody of PoC/minority gender identity emerging from social media with a strong voice and identity.

I'm not white.  Just ask Jason.
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community... [EDITED]
Post by: Dionysus on October 29, 2013, 04:46:37 am
That doesn't exist in such a linear format in this game because its extremely skill driven.  For example, you have archers taking out dedicated melee players in melee.  This isn't a strategy game.  Its like in a shooter game,  A sniper at range should have the advantage on a pointman with a shotgun.  But it doesn't always work out that way.

Thank you. This is exactly the input I am looking for. It's a shame it took four or so posts to get that from you.

Going to state this again, I am not making an argument, nor am I complaining. I'm trying to create a discussion without being very direct.
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community... [EDITED]
Post by: Joker86 on October 29, 2013, 02:13:37 pm
I think almost every balance problem Warband and cRPG had, currently have and will always have are related to the following two facts:

1.: Medieval combat was not about balance, if anything the opposite. You tried to keep it as unfair as possible, by all means you had, to get the upper hand over your enemy. This means it is not constructed around a "stone-scissors-paper"-system, which you can see by the different amounts of counters and prey classes the different classes have. Some are countered by more, some by less classes than they do counter. The high and late medieval knight, a highly trained, well equipped and usually really hard to kill fighter was the jack-of-all-trades at that time, at least the one which came closest to it. A single knight was always worth more than any other single fighter they had in their armies. Something which doesn't work in a MP game.

2.: The skill system introduced in M&B was not created with the idea of a MP game with constant characters, it's about SP. Different classes and builds need different amounts of skills and thus skill points to work. While a 2hd infantryman basically only needs power strike and weapon mastery to effectively swing his sword, a horse archer needs power draw, horse archery, riding skill and weapon master. Same for the equipment. A 2hd infantryman basically only needs his sword. To be a horse archer you (at least) need a bow, arrows and a horse. You can argue that with this basic setup (a naked 2hd infantryman without athletics vs a naked horse archer on a horse) the horse archer is more powerful than the 2hd infantryman, which represents the skill point cost. But since we are limited to lvl 30 in cRPG, and all players should be of about the same overall strength, the system breaks at this moment.

As we all know, you are not limited by the choice of skills, apart from the attribute requirement. But there does exist a limited amount of viable builds, especially due to the level cap, but also due to a few game mechanics concerning item weight, weapon proficiency and so on. There was a time when picking anything else than 18 STR and 6 PD for your archer was plainly stupid and inferior to this absolutely best choice.

I think it is interesting to give the option to try out different builds, but the choice is actually more limited than it looks like. You don't need to be a one man army, and usually you can't even be one, but you can be it more or you can be it less. If you want to be it less and more of a team player, supporter or something along these lines, you will undeniably be effective, and if people are playing properly with you you can even be super-effective, but usually on public servers a lot of frustration will be awaiting you. There are interdependencies between the classes, and sometimes strong synergy effects can be achieved, but again this varies from class to class.

As you notice I am constantly talking about classes, simply because I think there ARE classes. Your equipment heavily influences your playstyle, your possibilities and thus your role. You can have hybrids, but basically things stay the same, especially since a hybrid can always be only one class in a moment, never two at the same time. His advantage is that he can switch between those classes during the battle, giving him more flexibility at the expense of effectivity in his particular classes.

The last thing I like to mention is this goddamn market place, which actually entirely took out the equipment aspect of a build, since items are only restricted by their stats ever more, but not by something different. Short time after the implementation of the upkeep system I posted my alternative system where you can increase your (fixed) item budget by investing skill points, implementing a tradeoff between skills and equipment and thus adding more depth into the game, but it got ignored by the devs, although chadz once mentioned that my system would actually be "interesting"... this is not to lobby for my system, since cRPG is already dead in my eyes, it's just to show how the upkeep system is also part of the problem and how a possible alternative could look like.
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community... [EDITED]
Post by: karasu on October 29, 2013, 03:10:01 pm
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Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community... [EDITED]
Post by: Penitent on October 29, 2013, 03:50:04 pm
I think almost every balance problem Warband and cRPG had, currently have and will always have are related to the following two facts:

1.: Medieval combat ...

Oh, look at you Mr. Joker, you prince.  With your thought-out diatribe and well-reasoned intellectual responses.  You make me all giddy inside.
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community... [EDITED]
Post by: SirCymro_Crusader on October 29, 2013, 04:21:15 pm
Oh, look at you Mr. Joker, you prince.  With your thought-out diatribe and well-reasoned intellectual responses.  You make me all giddy inside.

My usual response to Joker's replies is TL;DR he never gives me one line responses :(
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: Johammeth on October 29, 2013, 04:40:26 pm
After reading op, I'm getting the feeling of being watched, like something terrible is lurking at the edge of my vision, something which my brain could not fully comprehend and which would send me spiraling into madness should I managed to lay eyes on it. I'm getting increasingly convinced that there are horrors in the universe which no human should ever know of. When the stars are right, HE will once again walk the Earth - and to him, we re but a bacteria or moss on the planet surface. Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!

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Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community... [EDITED]
Post by: Joker86 on October 29, 2013, 07:08:52 pm
My usual response to Joker's replies is TL;DR he never gives me one line responses :(

It's because the world doesn't work with one liners. You can't explain everything with "because it's the way god made it" or "because your mother wants it".

P.S.: Almost fogort to add another line to my post by adding a "P.S."...
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community... [EDITED]
Post by: Dionysus on October 29, 2013, 09:55:54 pm
I think almost every balance problem Warband and cRPG had, currently have and will always have are related to the following two facts...

Thank you for your response! You bring up a lot of good points! You mention how gear is the main influence for deciding your class. What do you think about crossbows being used by non-dedicated (to xbow, that is) melee builds? It's certainly less rampant since the slot changes, but would you consider this a change in class, or simply a force multiplier?
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community... [EDITED]
Post by: Rico on October 29, 2013, 10:47:53 pm
Quote
What do you think about crossbows being used by non-dedicated (to xbow, that is) melee builds? It's certainly less rampant since the slot changes, but would you consider this a change in class, or simply a force multiplier?

People who do this are only effective over the short range, lucky, or if they still manage to shoot you, you just suck at dodging. Plus, they will pay a lot of upkeep and reload for hours. If they picked up the xbow, everything is legit. It isn't neither too heavy to lift (except for Kinngrimm, haha) nor too hard to pull the trigger. Every fool can do it, same as every fool can pick up a Greatsword, an Awlpike or a Scimitar. The question is whether all these people are successful. The answer is no.

Don't criticize crossbows, they are holy.
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community... [EDITED]
Post by: SirCymro_Crusader on October 29, 2013, 11:01:32 pm
It's because the world doesn't work with one liners. You can't explain everything with "because it's the way god made it" or "because your mother wants it".

P.S.: Almost fogort to add another line to my post by adding a "P.S."...

TL;DR over one line :P
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community... [EDITED]
Post by: Grumbs on October 29, 2013, 11:04:31 pm
Ranged should definitely have to spend a good amount of their SP in using their ranged, something that is not really the case with xbows. If you're good at melee you hybrid way too efficiently IMO, especially with how good 1 handers are.
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community... [EDITED]
Post by: Dionysus on October 29, 2013, 11:27:14 pm
Don't criticize crossbows, they are holy.

Oh, I am not criticizing anything. I am asking Joker what he thinks about the use of crossbows in classes that have little to no proficiency in them.
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community... [EDITED]
Post by: Joker86 on October 30, 2013, 12:03:38 am
Thank you for your response! You bring up a lot of good points! You mention how gear is the main influence for deciding your class. What do you think about crossbows being used by non-dedicated (to xbow, that is) melee builds? It's certainly less rampant since the slot changes, but would you consider this a change in class, or simply a force multiplier?

I think it's a problem of the upkeep system. In itself I think it is okay to have crossbows need little to no skills to be used, I think something like that can be implemented into a game properly without breaking the balance, just to cater realism a bit. But with the upkeep system having the task to limit people's gear, and the simultaneous implementation of the market place, there is no gear limitation, and thus, at least in theory, the crossbow becomes part of many melee classes.

I would say it is indeed a change of class, in terms of making a hybrid. But as I wrote, a hybrid is never something new or a class for itself, it is somebody who can switch between two classes whenever he needs to. It's a slight flexibility buff, nothing more. So rather a force multiplier.

TL;DR over one line :P

Balance is bad because medieval battles (and the "classes" back then) were unbalanced, the M&B skill system is unbalanced and upkeep system sucks.
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community... [EDITED]
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 30, 2013, 12:21:19 am
AAAAAPES :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community... [EDITED]
Post by: SirCymro_Crusader on October 30, 2013, 10:37:37 am
Balance is bad because medieval battles (and the "classes" back then) were unbalanced, the M&B skill system is unbalanced and upkeep system sucks.

That whole post for that?! I knew that already :P
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
Post by: BlindGuy on October 30, 2013, 10:44:16 am
In like, you recognize other players by their outfit...

Yes! That guys has a light kuyak and a closed helmet, it must be... EVERY bundle of sticks EVER.

What thomek says is right, you can dress so differently. What does it say ABOUT YOU, that you chose kuyak guys? 80% of you own one, dont lie. Fucking star wars freaks, wanting to reennact the Attack of the Clones.
Title: Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community... [EDITED]
Post by: Joker86 on October 30, 2013, 01:43:42 pm
That whole post for that?! I knew that already :P

Many people don't. And often people THINK some stuff is obvious, but all the influences and effects this means are still not obvious to them.