cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: San on October 22, 2013, 09:55:58 pm
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It's somewhat odd that you have to release block and run a little bit to catch up to a backpedaling holder, or if you barely miss someone you're chasing and the gap increases by a fair margin. I propose an additional run tier when moving forward and holding attack/blocking for a few seconds for both manual block and shield.
Run modes should smoothly switch as long as you continue to move forward.
According to Waltf4 (http://forum.melee.org/beginner%27s-help-and-guides/running-in-crpg/)
Moving forward while blocking or chambering an attack increased run time by 17% + or - 1%. Back peddling increased run time by 52% + or - 2%.
17% is like losing 5 athletics when increasing the running times by 17% on the graphs for higher athletics. After a few seconds, I think it should increase to a 10% decrease, closer to losing 3 athletics + 9 agi. I think it will make chasing and shield charges a little better and is a decent alternative to nerfing backpedaling/ranged movement. Most melee fights will be untouched unless you're fighting a supreme packpedaler.
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This issue is especially apparent when fighting agility long spear abusers. Because their stupid thrust wiggles are active for full damage during the entire animation, you end up spending almost the entire fight holding block->you move too slow to catch them->you have to block more.
So yes, a mechanic that allowed faster run speed than usual for the first second or two while blocking+moving forward would be a welcome tool to use against S-keyers without directly nerfing backpedaling.
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Nah bro, let's not make great maulers even faster.
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This issue is especially apparently when fighting agility long spear abusers. Because their stupid thrust wiggles are active for full damage during the entire animation, you end up spending almost the entire fight holding block->you move too slow to catch them->you have to block more.
I have never agreed with something you've said more than this Phew.
Sometimes I just run at them, facehug, and hold downblock exclusively just so others can take them down lol.
They jump/spin around like a fish out of water trying to stab everyone 2 ft from them (which should be physically impossible), but it just keeps hitting my held downblock lol.
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I have never agreed with something you've said more than this Phew.
Sometimes I just run at them, facehug, and hold downblock exclusively just so others can take them down lol.
They jump/spin around like a fish out of water trying to stab everyone 2 ft from them (which should be physically impossible), but it just keeps hitting my held downblock lol.
How many Pikes/Longspears do you even see in NA? I can count on one hand the amount of dedicated guys and maybe 1 (me) could be considered a agi build (21 agi, 7 ath). The class is so little played and honestly S-keying as a piker/LS user is really not a good idea because A. it does very low damage when backpadeling and B. To catch anybody off guard we have to hold the stab and wait for a opening, thereby slowing us down even more. I usually just turn around and book it the moment I start getting rushed by a dedicated downblock holder.
It is better to circle a enemy or try to 'dance' with them a bit so they miss and you can get a decent stab on their head.
Edit: Yeah the Longspear is notorious about those pointblank stab spins, they happen much less frequently with the pike but they are no more ridiculous than pointblank 2h stabs (or those extended reach ones that hang out there forever and still hit really hard).
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Edit: Yeah the Longspear is notorious about those pointblank stab spins, they happen much less frequently with the pike but they are no more ridiculous than pointblank 2h stabs (or those extended reach ones that hang out there forever and still hit really hard).
All of my +1s especially this part. I get bitched at for bullshit stabs by people who have not only a wonky stab of their own but also three other fucking attack directions.
@ San
Can the engine handle this though? Sounds complicated.
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Heaven Forbid longspears can pull the exact same bullcrap pointblank shotgun stabs that literally every other weapon that stabs can do too...
Anywho, to the OP, that does sound like something I'd be interested in, and I'm wondering if WSE could allow us to have those different run modes.
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Edit: Yeah the Longspear is notorious about those pointblank stab spins, they happen much less frequently with the pike but they are no more ridiculous than pointblank 2h stabs (or those extended reach ones that hang out there forever and still hit really hard).
All three stabs are equally absurd now, but someone thrusting past you with a sword and dragging the blade into you at least looks like it might actually hurt IRL. The long spear/pike just look particularly dumb because the side of a thin wooden pole doesn't look like something that could hurt anyone, nonetheless kill them in 2-3 hits.
For me at least, I just want to play a game where the combat mechanics look realistic. All of the mechanics I complain about (hiltslash, lolstab, huge kickcone, etc) aren't so much balance issues as they just look dumb. It's unfortunate that to be effective, you have to run around acting like some kind of rabid ballerina.
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For me at least, I just want to play a game where the combat mechanics look realistic.
Non of our combat looks realistic. Nobody in their right minds "blocks" any weapon with another instead of deflecting, blocking is a great way to tire yourself out, feel like you hit a brick wall with a baseball bat, and damage your weapon.
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All three stabs are equally absurd now, but someone thrusting past you with a sword and dragging the blade into you at least looks like it might actually hurt IRL. The long spear/pike just look particularly dumb because the side of a thin wooden pole doesn't look like something that could hurt anyone, nonetheless kill them in 2-3 hits.
For me at least, I just want to play a game where the combat mechanics look realistic. All of the mechanics I complain about (hiltslash, lolstab, huge kickcone, etc) aren't so much balance issues as they just look dumb. It's unfortunate that to be effective, you have to run around acting like some kind of rabid ballerina.
Well if its any consolation to you the LS/Pike class is extremely rare in battle and almost non-existent in siege. It does have a better showing in strat due to ease of use and the need for at-least nominal protection from cav, so you will not have to see the 'unrealistic' nature of it very much. Unlike 2h which is a very popular class and seem to pop up everywhere. As for balancing with the Pike/LS, if they fixed the animations a bit and made the wiggle harder to pull off that would be okay but it would drive the class even more into the current abysmal numbers its currently at.
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even if they removed the ability to stab everything but stationary targets standing exactly two metres away I'd still use the longspear just to piss the haters off
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even if they removed the ability to stab everything but stationary targets standing exactly two metres away I'd still use the longspear just to piss the haters off
I'm with you (with a Pike, the real Mans long pointy stick).
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I think this proposed change should only apply to holding blocks, not attacks. There are already too many players whose primary tactic is to hold attacks indefinitely to bore opponents into getting impatient and dropping their block. I'm not sure these people should be rewarded with faster run speed.
There is a popular suggestion to adjust the damage bonus from holds to decay into a damage penalty after a few seconds. That way someone that holds their attack for 5+ seconds would be punished with a likely glance. If this was implemented, then San's suggestion would be fine for attack holds as well.
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I originally had it for just blocks and changed it mid-post, admittedly not much thought with the chambering part.
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[...] Edit: Yeah the Longspear is notorious about those pointblank stab spins, they happen much less frequently with the pike but they are no more ridiculous than pointblank 2h stabs (or those extended reach ones that hang out there forever and still hit really hard).
Why those things dont get fixed? Its really disturbing and just plain silly since day one.
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Edit: Yeah the Longspear is notorious about those pointblank stab spins, they happen much less frequently with the pike but they are no more ridiculous than pointblank 2h stabs (or those extended reach ones that hang out there forever and still hit really hard).
While I for one think that the 1h/2h lolstabs are far worse than any bendy pike nonsense, I feel like a lot of people complain about the pike/ls stab since it simply makes no sense, in game or in real combat. Realistically, you COULD stab someone point blank with a 1h in real life... I mean using a knife is essentially point blank range anyways. And even with some 2handed swords, the bastard class especially, it might be possible, somehow. Greatswords and the like... not so much. But a 10 foot long pike could literally never stab someone point blank when held properly. I think the problem is simply a realism issue.... "How the hell did I just get hit when the spearhead is 10 feet away from me?!?!?!? "
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Why those things dont get fixed? Its really disturbing and just plain silly since day one.
Because it's able to happen with all weapons, not just pokey polearms.
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Because it's able to happen with all weapons, not just pokey polearms.
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Pokey polearms do it better than any other weapon
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I love all the people whining about pikes being able to stab up close while the only reason they get facehugged all the time is the way pikes work, or more like do not work properly in the game. Realistically you would not be able to be safe from a pike forever by just holding your weapon out in front of you horizontally, nor would you be able to walk straight through an extended pointy stick.
You get to close in on pikes way too easily and then it is unrealistic and stupid if we can strike back at you? Real convenient to apply the realism argument like that.
they happen much less frequently with the pike
They simply do not happen with the pike as the weapon has no hitbox for like the first meter of the stick. Which incidentally is also why you can stab straight through anything that is less than that meter thick, including walls and teammates. You can still kickstab with a pike though, but you need to be fast enough get enough distance during the kick stagger.
Pokey polearms do it better than any other weapon
Wrong, they do it better because they need it more so they practiced it more.
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As for the OP's suggestion, this is an enormous change in the very base mechanics of combat which will have many unforseen consequences, which I think is not advisable with the current dev attention and inability to do quick tweaks or fixes.
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Wrong, they do it better because they need it more so they practiced it more.
With longspear/pike I might be inclined to think it is effectively the case.
With awlpikes ? Hell no.
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I love all the people whining about pikes being able to stab up close while the only reason they get facehugged all the time is the way pikes work, or more like do not work properly in the game. Realistically you would not be able to be safe from a pike forever by just holding your weapon out in front of you horizontally, nor would you be able to walk straight through an extended pointy stick.
Agreed. The realism argument does not really hold much weight versus Pikes, it always seems like people are cherry picking certain situations then calling out "Unrealistic!", when they are surrounded by unrealistic things.
They simply do not happen with the pike as the weapon has no hitbox for like the first meter of the stick. Which incidentally is also why you can stab straight through anything that is less than that meter thick, including walls and teammates. You can still kickstab with a pike though, but you need to be fast enough get enough distance during the kick stagger.
Wrong, they do it better because they need it more so they practiced it more.
Oh they happen. I can do them myself. It just depends on what people define as pointblank. If I get a decent spin and the enemy is standing still, due to ping/latency it will appear like I am doing a pointblank stab on their screen but on mine I have positioned the pike just out of that first meter of the stick. These happen fairly consistently especially versus guys with higher than average ping.
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Oh they happen. I can do them myself. It just depends on what people define as pointblank. If I get a decent spin and the enemy is standing still, due to ping/latency it will appear like I am doing a pointblank stab on their screen but on mine I have positioned the pike just out of that first meter of the stick. These happen fairly consistently especially versus guys with higher than average ping.
I define point blank as them pretty much touching you and you can't do them. The visual difference you are talking about would require like 500 ms as jumping away does not happen in 40 ms. Besides, how would you even know what it would look like on the screen of other players?
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I define point blank as them pretty much touching you and you can't do them. The visual difference you are talking about would require like 500 ms as jumping away does not happen in 40 ms. Besides, how would you even know what it would look like on the screen of other players?
Ive done it to people with 120ish ping and then people with 30 ping and discussed it on TS with them. There is a noticeable difference in how it appears on their side compared to mine. Its really a minor difference but its there and does effect the outcome of fights, especially 1 on 1's.
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As for the OP's suggestion, this is an enormous change in the very base mechanics of combat which will have many unforseen consequences, which I think is not advisable with the current dev attention and inability to do quick tweaks or fixes.
100% agree. I think san makes a really great suggestion (probably one of the more useful ones I've seen in a long time), but the devs are just simply not active enough to tweak and modify new game mechanics that get implemented (well the one's who actually "release" the updates). Prime example is the kick area of effect.
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This might be an interesting suggestion, but, yeah, a bit late.