cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Penitent on October 09, 2013, 06:12:26 pm

Title: Steel Pick [POLL]
Post by: Penitent on October 09, 2013, 06:12:26 pm
Once a feared sight on the battlefield, this little sharpie has had speed and damage nerfed in the past.  With 1h swords now having a nice stab, and with the significant benefits of knockdown on blunt weapons...I think its safe to say that the steel pick (and perhaps other picks) is underpowered compared to other top-tier 1h. 

I propose increasing its speed OR damage by +1 to balance it internally with other 1h weapons.

I'm posting this in relation to a different thread where the following was being discussed:

Quote
64/65 cm reach without a thrust is really short. All of your attacks are within kick range, and these weapons do about the same damage as a Espada thrust (which has almost 3 times the reach!)...
 

Quote
The only heavy steel pick users I knew about were me and kinngrimm before it got nerfed. It's still good, but it's overshadowed now since the decreased speed makes them too comparable to hammers without knockdown. The pick used to be too good because the swords were too weak, but that situation has changed now.
Title: Re: Steel Pick [POLL]
Post by: Phew on October 09, 2013, 06:42:32 pm
I voted +1 speed; there's no reason the picks should be slower than the Spathovaklion (which has more reach AND knockdown).

If you are one of those people complaining about the new 1h thrust, buffing picks/axes/3d swords is one way to cut down on 1h thrusts. 1h balance is a bit too skewed toward blunt weapons and thrust swords right now, partially due to the recent over-nerfing of the picks.
Title: Re: Steel Pick [POLL]
Post by: Nightmare798 on October 09, 2013, 06:50:00 pm
great, now they will be able to spam backhands even faster.

i voted no, those weapons have pierce on swing, no need to buff them more.
Title: Re: Steel Pick [POLL]
Post by: San on October 09, 2013, 06:54:21 pm
I think it should be nerfed in power a bit more, but have 99 speed. 99speed+30pierce.
Title: Re: Steel Pick [POLL]
Post by: Nightmare798 on October 09, 2013, 06:57:07 pm
Quote from: san. on October 09, 2013, 06:54:21 pm
I think it should be nerfed in power a bit more, but have 99 speed. 99speed+30pierce.

i wonder why should a pick swing as fast as fencing sword...
Title: Re: Steel Pick [POLL]
Post by: Grumbs on October 09, 2013, 07:07:17 pm
The fact people are seriously talking about buffing Steel Pick (34 pierce) shows how out of whack 1 handers are now.
Title: Re: Steel Pick [POLL]
Post by: Penitent on October 09, 2013, 07:08:12 pm
Quote from: Nightmare798 on October 09, 2013, 06:57:07 pm
i wonder why should a pick swing as fast as fencing sword...

There are no fencing swords in this game (rapier, epee, etc.).  There is a side-sword which is a cut-and-thrust type weapon.

For balance reasons, it makes sense for a pick to swing as fast or faster because it is at a severe reach disadvantage.  In fact, it is one of the most severe reach disadvantages in the game.

If you are talking about realism, like it seems like you may be, you should post in the realism thread.

(click to show/hide)


Quote from: Grumbs on October 09, 2013, 07:07:17 pm
The fact people are seriously talking about buffing Steel Pick (34 pierce) shows how out of whack 1 handers are now.

The steel pick is 31 pierce, not 34. 
Yes, all weapons become more powerful when loomed, but I don't believe that's what the balance is based on.
Title: Re: Steel Pick [POLL]
Post by: Gurnisson on October 09, 2013, 07:13:29 pm
Minor buff to Steel Pick and a bigger buff to Military Pick which is quite useless stat-wise. That or nerf 1h maces.
Title: Re: Steel Pick [POLL]
Post by: Grumbs on October 09, 2013, 07:14:00 pm
Of course the balance is based on loomed, you think it should be balanced assuming people use the +0 version?
Title: Re: Steel Pick [POLL]
Post by: DaruviansUnmutedAccount on October 09, 2013, 07:15:51 pm
Anyone who says steel pick is fine or needs more nerfs, how about you specialize into one hand, pick up a steel pick and try to win a duel against any good 2h or polearm who can massively outreach your weapon, do more damage than you, and have the total advantage for when to throw kicks--they never have to step inside your kick radius to hit you, but you ALWAYS have to step in their kick radius to hit them.

I love the steel pick, use it nearly every time I play 1H on my main (which is rare anymore because even though I love the playstyle of 1H, I recognize that it is just easier for Strategus to play 2H because you get so much more power with so much less effort as a STR crutch 2H). I even use the steel pick as my primary cavalry weapon, something I feel that is pretty unique to me... but when it comes to duels, even I will admit that the steel pick is a piece of shit in a 1v1 situation against a 2H or polearm, let alone an agi 1H with a now super-buffed thrusting sword.
Title: Re: Steel Pick [POLL]
Post by: Grumbs on October 09, 2013, 07:17:49 pm
And just why do you think 1hand with shield should be 100% balanced with pole and 2 hand in 1v1? You get the utility of a shield which is better in group fights and constant protection from ranged. Not that i'm saying that a good 1 hand/shield guy won't beat guys in 1v1 against other classes
Title: Re: Steel Pick [POLL]
Post by: DaruviansUnmutedAccount on October 09, 2013, 07:22:57 pm
I'm talking about duels not using a shield. Why should 1H automatically be forced to use a shield?

This is duels we're talking about. If you use a shield in duels you're a cunt.

Additionally, the only people who believe that shields are actually effective against ranged are ranged.
Title: Re: Steel Pick [POLL]
Post by: Grumbs on October 09, 2013, 07:26:35 pm
Weapons should not be balanced based on duels. The game isn't about dueling guys imo

1 Handers have to be balanced assuming they are used alongside a shield because thats their primary function and use ingame. If you want to talk about 1 hand balance without a shield then thats a whole other topic
Title: Re: Steel Pick [POLL]
Post by: Nightmare798 on October 09, 2013, 07:28:42 pm
Quote from: Garison on October 09, 2013, 07:08:12 pm
There are no fencing swords in this game (rapier, epee, etc.).  There is a side-sword which is a cut-and-thrust type weapon.

For balance reasons, it makes sense for a pick to swing as fast or faster because it is at a severe reach disadvantage.  In fact, it is one of the most severe reach disadvantages in the game.

If you are talking about realism, like it seems like you may be, you should post in the realism thread.

(click to show/hide)


The steel pick is 31 pierce, not 34. 
Yes, all weapons become more powerful when loomed, but I don't believe that's what the balance is based on.

sidesword is a fencing sword, and as for espada, i never actually seen this sword irl, but if it is indeed real, then i think that it would be usable for fencing.

EDIT: it doesnt matter if a weapon has both cutting and thrusting capabilities. fencing is a style of handling. practically any 1h sword can be used for fencing, but those two weapons would be much better choice than about ANY sword.
Title: Re: Steel Pick [POLL]
Post by: DaruviansUnmutedAccount on October 09, 2013, 07:29:15 pm
Quote from: Grumbs on October 09, 2013, 07:26:35 pm
Weapons should not be balanced based on duels. The game isn't about dueling guys imo

1 Handers have to be balanced assuming they are used alongside a shield because thats their primary function and use ingame. If you want to talk about 1 hand balance without a shield then thats a whole other topic

You're a cunt.
Title: Re: Steel Pick [POLL]
Post by: Phew on October 09, 2013, 07:30:37 pm
Unless you are at a severe athletics/weight disadvantage, you can fight a steel pick user and never even have to block, just dance outside their range and kick/nudge if they get too close. Picks should be very powerful, because it's so easy to avoid them anywhere other than a choke point. And even in a choke point, a maul is a better weapon all around anyway.
Title: Re: Steel Pick [POLL]
Post by: Grumbs on October 09, 2013, 07:32:39 pm
Quote from: DaruviansUnmutedAccount on October 09, 2013, 07:29:15 pm
You're a cunt.

Cool, lose your argument and go to ad hominems
Title: Re: Steel Pick [POLL]
Post by: Penitent on October 09, 2013, 07:42:13 pm
Quote
I'm talking about duels not using a shield. Why should 1H automatically be forced to use a shield?

This is duels we're talking about. If you use a shield in duels you're a cunt.

Additionally, the only people who believe that shields are actually effective against ranged are ranged.


woah woah woah woah

Yes, if you are using a 1h without a shield, you are only using one of your arms and you are putting yourself at a disadvantage, obviously.  You are fighting with one hand tied behind your back.  You might as well use a 2h sword in pole arm mode...its a disadvantage not to use all the advantages available to you (like a free hand).  That's kind of what a disadvantage is.
(click to show/hide)

I always use shields in a duel if I want to actually win...since I have a good amount of skill points in shield and to NOT use a shield is handicapping myself for no reason.  The only reason I don't is if I'm trying to improve my manual blocking skills.

I have 11 gens of shielder...shields are immensely, positively, absolutely, amazingly effective against ranged.  I have no fear of ranged.  They are my prey.  I smile when their arrows clunk uselessly against my bulwark of protection.  I get hard watching them flee from me.  Even MORE -- I can protect myself and teammates against ranged.  This is my calling in life when I am holding a shield.
Title: Re: Steel Pick [POLL]
Post by: Phew on October 09, 2013, 07:47:34 pm
Quote from: Garison on October 09, 2013, 07:42:13 pm
Yes, if you are using a 1h without a shield, you are only using one of your arms and you are putting yourself at a disadvantage, obviously.  You are fighting with one hand tied behind your back.  You might as well use a 2h sword in pole arm mode...its a disadvantage not to use all the advantages available to you (like a free hand).  That's kind of what a disadvantage is.

1h no shield attack nudge enables a free hit every 6 seconds, that's a pretty compelling use for that free hand. But apparently this is being "fixed" next patch, whenever that arrives (Dec. 2010?).
Title: Re: Steel Pick [POLL]
Post by: San on October 09, 2013, 07:55:23 pm
Don't get ahead of yourselves guys, steel pick is pretty dang good in 1v1s with and without shield.
Title: Re: Steel Pick [POLL]
Post by: Ronin on October 09, 2013, 07:57:52 pm
Picks=Hard to spot, pierce damage (less chance to glance), faster compared to blunt weapons.
Title: Re: Steel Pick [POLL]
Post by: Phew on October 09, 2013, 08:03:07 pm
Quote from: san. on October 09, 2013, 07:55:23 pm
Don't get ahead of yourselves guys, steel pick is pretty dang good in 1v1s with and without shield.

In your hands, but a practice dagger would be "pretty dang good" in your hands. Duel Saul/Giggleknight/someone else with similar skill level to yours, if he has a side sword/spathovaklion/etc and you have a steel pick, you are going to be at a severe disadvantage.

I don't have a horse in this race (I think picks look stupid and won't use one regardless), but I like diversity on the battlefield. And picks are going nearly extinct in favor of thrust 1h swords/blunt 1h.
Title: Re: Steel Pick [POLL]
Post by: Phantasmal on October 09, 2013, 09:23:22 pm
Steel pick is already pretty good as it is. It is made more for the agility based build rather then a str based build (who should really be using the longer 1hers to begin with).
Title: Re: Steel Pick [POLL]
Post by: Penitent on October 09, 2013, 09:33:26 pm
Quote from: Phantasmal on October 09, 2013, 09:23:22 pm
Steel pick is already pretty good as it is. It is made more for the agility based build rather then a str based build (who should really be using the longer 1hers to begin with).

That's kind of an odd perspective...

It's perfectly acceptable and viable for a STR build to use a fast weapon to try to minimize the slowness his low wpf (espcially if he's a shielder as a shield helps you get in range is you have a short weapon), or for an agi build to use a long weapon to try to maximize their mobility and ability to dance and and out of range.

All builds have a proper place using all weapons, for the most part -- there are just different pros and cons.  That was always my understanding.
Title: Re: Steel Pick [POLL]
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on October 09, 2013, 11:49:33 pm
Quote from: Grumbs on October 09, 2013, 07:32:39 pm
Cool, lose your argument and go to ad hominems

That wasn't ad hominem. He didn't tell you that your opinions were based on the fact that you were a fat, cheeto-dusted neckbeard in real life. That would be ad hominem.

All he did was call you a cunt. I think the technical term for that is...

....
....

yeah, I'm pretty sure its just calling you a cunt.


ON TOPIC:

I do not consider lack of length to be a net negative for many weapons. Against a single target who will exploit that lack of length by taping his S key down, the only real recourse is to either stand completely still or S key him back, making him feel so awkward he may be compelled to advance towards you. However, in a team-fight situation, I prefer short weapons much of the time. You're much less likely to glance on teammates who are likely not keeping you and your position in mind while fighting, much less likely to glance off of enemies that you're not intending to hit, and your weapon is much more difficult to see for an enemy in the hectic environment of a team-fight.

Title: Re: Steel Pick [POLL]
Post by: Grumbs on October 10, 2013, 12:16:40 am
Quote from: Sandersson Jankins on October 09, 2013, 11:49:33 pm
yeah, I'm pretty sure its just calling you a cunt.

Guess so. I didn't mean to say I "won the debate" in general in this thread though, that would be crass. Just his tangent into balancing everything around duelling and balancing 1 handers without considering that most use them with a shield

But yeah getting into name calling pretty much ruins whatever point you were trying to make imo and usually means you moved away from arguing your point and into ad hominem territory
Title: Re: Steel Pick [POLL]
Post by: Strudog on October 10, 2013, 12:32:47 am
Sometimes i role with steel pick in strat because it does more damage with 1 wpf than my pole with 150 wpf
Title: Re: Steel Pick [POLL]
Post by: oohillac on October 10, 2013, 12:52:52 am
what if

stay with me here

what if instead we nerfed

still with me?

what if we nerfed 1h stab?  that'd balance the pick
Title: Re: Steel Pick [POLL]
Post by: Penitent on October 10, 2013, 05:53:22 am
Quote from: oohillac on October 10, 2013, 12:52:52 am
what if

stay with me here

what if instead we nerfed

still with me?

what if we nerfed 1h stab?  that'd balance the pick

I was thinking the picks are more UP compared to maces and hammers.  Steel Pick and Warhammer are a mis-match anyways, with the warhammer clearly better.

Looks like the general consensus so far is that the pick is not in need of a buff tho.
Title: Re: Steel Pick [POLL]
Post by: Nightmare798 on October 10, 2013, 11:01:12 am
Quote from: oohillac on October 10, 2013, 12:52:52 am
what if

stay with me here

what if instead we nerfed

still with me?

what if we nerfed 1h stab?  that'd balance the pick

hmm, i can smell the STR steel pick whore from a mile away.
Title: Re: Steel Pick [POLL]
Post by: Jona on October 10, 2013, 06:40:43 pm
An agi 1h has to be one of the best dueling builds nowadays (dat stab), even with a short weapon. If you have 7+ athletics no one will be able to severely S key you. You can face hug all you want and with a steel pick you won't glance at that range while someone with a longer weapon will. Not to mention that steel picks have infamous ghost reach and are still thin + spammable enough so that you can barely see them. It has the same problem as the spathovaklion... too skinny and small to see. Sure, it might not show it in its stats, but its model gives it a large advantage on its own. I could see the pick being less feasible for a slow str build, but just sit still and don't fall for an opponents S key / kick traps and you can kill him in 1 - 2 hits. Or just you know... use a weapon better suited to your class.

Also, who the heck even plays str crutch 1hander? I honestly can't think of anyone... or at least I have yet to see one as extreme as a str crutch 2h that is something like 36-3. Mostly all 1hs have a decent amount of agi so they can use a shield as well. Most str I know for a fact that a 1h has been using was 24, but coupled with 0 IF and 15 agi (5 ath, 5 shield) they really weren't slow at all.
Title: Re: Steel Pick [POLL]
Post by: Phew on October 10, 2013, 07:50:49 pm
Quote from: Jona on October 10, 2013, 06:40:43 pm
Also, who the heck even plays str crutch 1hander? I honestly can't think of anyone... or at least I have yet to see one as extreme as a str crutch 2h that is something like 36-3. Mostly all 1hs have a decent amount of agi so they can use a shield as well. Most str I know for a fact that a 1h has been using was 24, but coupled with 0 IF and 15 agi (5 ath, 5 shield) they really weren't slow at all.

I think Turbo is 27/15 or similar. But he's always tightly clustered with clanmates in a deadly gank squad, so I don't think he cares about efficacy in a duel-type situation. Para I believe has a similar build/philosophy. Haven't seen either on NA2 in ages tho :(

I think the "hard to see" aspect of the Steel pick is what got it nerfed in the first place, not the actual stats. Specifically, people have a really hard time distinguishing 1h left swing and overhead, which is exacerbated with a short thin weapon. Spathovaklion has the same "hard to see" feature, but more reach and knockdown, so I have to think it's ripe for a nerf. The 1h maces/hammers were well balanced before that abomination appeared on the scene.


Title: Re: Steel Pick [POLL]
Post by: San on October 11, 2013, 04:02:32 am
Just tried warhammer for once in a strat battle with 1h no shield and I must say that warhammer >>> post-nerf steel pick. I was getting knockdowns much more often than with the iberian mace. My previous build was too slow with too little wpf (had to rely on faster weapons) to really see how great it is.
Title: Re: Steel Pick [POLL]
Post by: Gurnisson on October 11, 2013, 09:03:44 am
Quote from: san. on October 11, 2013, 04:02:32 am
Just tried warhammer for once in a strat battle with 1h no shield and I must say that warhammer >>> post-nerf steel pick. I was getting knockdowns much more often than with the iberian mace. My previous build was too slow with too little wpf (had to rely on faster weapons) to really see how great it is.

You've seen the light as well now :)
Title: Re: Steel Pick [POLL]
Post by: Camaris on October 12, 2013, 07:45:00 pm
Quote from: DaruviansUnmutedAccount on October 09, 2013, 07:15:51 pm
Anyone who says steel pick is fine or needs more nerfs, how about you specialize into one hand, pick up a steel pick and try to win a duel against any good 2h or polearm who can massively outreach your weapon, do more damage than you, and have the total advantage for when to throw kicks--they never have to step inside your kick radius to hit you, but you ALWAYS have to step in their kick radius to hit them.

I love the steel pick, use it nearly every time I play 1H on my main (which is rare anymore because even though I love the playstyle of 1H, I recognize that it is just easier for Strategus to play 2H because you get so much more power with so much less effort as a STR crutch 2H). I even use the steel pick as my primary cavalry weapon, something I feel that is pretty unique to me... but when it comes to duels, even I will admit that the steel pick is a piece of shit in a 1v1 situation against a 2H or polearm, let alone an agi 1H with a now super-buffed thrusting sword.

so if in sometime kicks gets finally nerfed we do nerf 1h again?
what i want to say is that it would probably be better just to look at kick then?
Title: Re: Steel Pick [POLL]
Post by: AARKOR on October 14, 2013, 10:52:00 pm
no wander why i m the only one using it...yeah maybe we should all use the longsword..change it, i m gone use something else to fuck you up guys!!!...ho no!we should have all the same weapon!
Title: Re: Steel Pick [POLL]
Post by: spiritus on November 12, 2013, 06:40:51 am
Yea i pointed this out like 2 monthes ago haha
Title: Re: Steel Pick [POLL]
Post by: SugarHoe on November 12, 2013, 08:56:31 pm
Quote from: Nightmare798 on October 10, 2013, 11:01:12 am
hmm, i can smell the STR steel pick whore from a mile away.
isnt he a longspear/pikeman