cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Dexxtaa on October 09, 2013, 07:50:37 am

Title: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: Dexxtaa on October 09, 2013, 07:50:37 am
10/9/2013: Siege server sees lots of action, and lots of bodies. 40v40 at its busiest tonight.

aka The day Battle Scrubs found out that cloth and footwork alone don't work on a wall or CQC.


(click to enlarge)
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Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: Teeth on October 09, 2013, 10:24:31 am
Nope, it's all about the armour and spam.
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: ShiftKnife on October 09, 2013, 11:06:01 am
(click to show/hide)

 8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: Radament on October 09, 2013, 01:20:43 pm
(click to show/hide)

have you resized the images or someone changed bbcode to resize large images ?

because i asked for a change in the bbcode for a resize code but anyone gave a fuck :(

anyway NA Siege needs more love .
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: [ptx] on October 09, 2013, 01:26:25 pm
have you resized the images or someone changed bbcode to resize large images ?

because i asked for a change in the bbcode for a resize code but anyone gave a fuck :(

anyway NA Siege needs more love .
Click Quote.
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: DumpsterNerd on October 09, 2013, 03:12:31 pm
Highlights of that night:  The guy with 22 ballista kills

Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: Hirlok on October 09, 2013, 03:20:40 pm
Highlights of that night:  The guy with 22 ballista kills

nerf dem gunz!
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: San on October 09, 2013, 03:28:20 pm
Because NA1 was turning into all maulers, xbows, and HA at that same time and many people just GTX.
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: Hirlok on October 09, 2013, 03:36:08 pm
btw siege would see a lot more action if some of the more crappy maps were gone and some of the buggy old ones (there are some where defenders are still unable to open their own doors to the flagroom after... errrr... 3 years now?) were fixed.

I know of quite a few players who are fed up with the horserape and other nonsense on NA1 but do not play siege because of the map rotation.
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: Elindor on October 09, 2013, 03:50:09 pm
Glad to see siege doing well...

Also, side note - yes, some of the maps are not great, but many of them play BETTER with more people, so keep siege populated and it helps take care of its own issues :)

Also, once devs do another patch/restart, there will be a new rotation...not sure how different exactly...but I do know my new map will be in which is decently similar to Sea Raid, which is one of the most popular and balanced siege maps, so hopefully my map will work out nicely too.

--> http://forum.melee.org/scene-editing/siege-map-submissions-for-official-servers-2-0/msg839725/#msg839725
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: Leman_Russ on October 09, 2013, 06:22:58 pm
Because NA1 was turning into all maulers, xbows, and HA at that same time and many people just GTX.

Is it really necessary to lump maulers into the same category of annoying as Xbows and horse archers?  I'm truly offended.
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: Hirlok on October 09, 2013, 06:28:18 pm
Is it really necessary to lump maulers into the same category of annoying as Xbows and horse archers?

YES.
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: San on October 09, 2013, 06:36:10 pm
Is it really necessary to lump maulers into the same category of annoying as Xbows and horse archers?  I'm truly offended.

I was just stating what was going on at the time with a higher than average proportion of maulers+ranged because there were only like 30-40 people on. Many maulers actually left because they kept getting shot.
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: Dexxtaa on October 09, 2013, 06:47:28 pm
Because fuck getting shot!
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: Nightmare798 on October 09, 2013, 06:54:06 pm
Is it really necessary to lump maulers into the same category of annoying as Xbows and horse archers?  I'm truly offended.

they are worse. arrows dont have crushthrough.
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: MURDERTRON on October 09, 2013, 07:17:15 pm
Maulers are easy to kill with two people using proper teamwork.  Unfortunately, no one knows how to use proper teamwork.
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: Carthan on October 09, 2013, 07:52:46 pm
Maulers are easy to kill with two people using proper teamwork.  Unfortunately, no one knows how to use proper teamwork.
That's where you use your teammate as a meatshield right?
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: Penitent on October 09, 2013, 08:05:46 pm
Yay!  That was fun.

I do have to say though, with the influx of people who don't usually play siege, I was getting team-hit a LOT more. :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: DumpsterNerd on October 09, 2013, 11:25:09 pm
Maulers are easy to kill with two people using proper teamwork.  Unfortunately, no one knows how to use proper teamwork.

A BUILD IS SO BALANCED IT ONLY TAKES TWICE AS MANY PLAYERS TO KILL IT*


* = I don't actually think mauls are OP, but the way you phrased that was pretty lol.

Also, isn't ranged even worse on siege in theory?
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: San on October 09, 2013, 11:26:38 pm
I like ranged in siege since you don't have to chase them if they kite.
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: Penitent on October 09, 2013, 11:42:22 pm
Ranged aren't that deadly in siege.  They are useful to have on your team during the initial approach as they can shoot off the walls...but once the walls are taken (they always are) its all close up and nasty fighting on most maps.

If you are attacking, they are annoying, but again once you are in the castle/town there are lots of places for cover on most maps.

Also, if you die from an archer, you respawn in less than a minute.  This makes all deaths less annoying including archer deaths.  It also means there is more "play time" per time you play and this makes it more fun in general. :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: Jarold on October 10, 2013, 12:04:52 am
they are worse. arrows dont have crushthrough.

Yeah that's only crossbows!
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: HappyPhantom on October 10, 2013, 01:19:30 am
<3
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: Bryggan on October 10, 2013, 04:23:35 am
Loved the siege, hated the maulers.  Try use footwork when there's 3 of them at a choke point.  I tried my usual 'force my way through with shield up to pull them away from the choke point to allow my buddies through' tactic, but when the first guys knocks you down with crush through and the second guy kills you, that sacrifice was in vain.
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: Donkey guy on October 10, 2013, 04:43:48 am
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: Tanken on October 10, 2013, 05:28:53 am
If you haven't noticed, for the last 4 nights, NA_2 has had more population than NA_1 because of the dedication of a lot of large clans to populate it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: StonedSteel on October 10, 2013, 06:14:27 am
If you haven't noticed, for the last 4 nights, NA_2 has had more population than NA_1 because of the dedication of a lot of large clans to populate it.

ohhh

I thought it was cuz people finally got sick of battle

Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: mcdeath on October 10, 2013, 06:38:49 am
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: dreadnok on October 10, 2013, 02:18:54 pm
You can only back up with 8 athletics and spam stab before you hit a wall in siege. Spammers are easy to kill bro
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: dreadnok on October 10, 2013, 02:21:55 pm


After seeing this video i have can honestly say: I can kill a human a million times easier than a dog
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on October 10, 2013, 02:40:12 pm
After seeing this video i have can honestly say: I can kill a human a million times easier than a dog
As someone who held his dog when she was put down, I can honestly say I would imagine it would be so much harder doing the same to a human. And I loved my dog like crazy and grew up with her and it was excruciating.
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on October 10, 2013, 04:06:42 pm
Good thing I haven't been playing crpg the last few days.

Battle mode for life (lol @ respawning).  Siege = full strength build ftw.  In battle you can help your team and do well personally with any class.  Not to mention the terrible siege maps.  Tonight when NA2 is more populated do me this experiment, for each map you play keep track of whether the defenders or attackers win each round of the map. 

My hypothesis is that on 90% of the maps one side will win every round of the map.
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: Elindor on October 10, 2013, 04:49:25 pm
You'd be surprised, siege is actually NOT infested with strength build maulers unless specific groups/people get on.  I find the builds/loadouts to be pretty similar to that in battle, although of course less horses and a bit less spears.

A lot of people like Mazrim, Jona, and many others are actually rather lightly armored. 

----

Yes, some of the siege maps are not great - there are MANY reasons for this.

1 - There needs to be a better screening process for maps before they get in (hopefully Fips/Teeth will help this)
2 - As a map maker myself, I know that siege maps are a *LOT* harder to make than battle maps from a balance perspective.  You have to give defense some defensive advantages but not too much or it turns into a meat grinder for offense and no one likes that.  Run times to flag have to be minded, AND the way the editor handles defensive spawn points is all but mysterious and possibly retarded.  Also, varying population amounts effects map balance: typically low pop benefits offense, and high pop benefits defense - so it is no easy feat for mappers to make a balanced siege map.

Not sure why you hate on siege so much - siege is just good intense fun.

Reason I like siege?  I love the mechanics of MB and its the only game like it...I want to use them (same reason I use 4 directional weapon without shield).
In siege you get more action, and its fun! :)

Don't get me wrong it can be frustrating but so can battle, and I *DO* like battle too...I play there from time to time as well.
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: Dexxtaa on October 10, 2013, 05:18:30 pm
People don't like siege because, while agility builds and light armor *can* flourish on it, it does take a certain degree of situational awareness to successfully fight in siege with those builds.

Also, I'll be the first to admit that the current siege layouts cater more to strength builds more so than Agility builds.

Personally, I believe a large determinant of the general siege hate comprise of 2 related, but distinctly separate issues:

#1. It's a different "game." [The problem with the Player]
Siege can be a meat-grinder or your own personal slaughterhouse-playground, depending on your experience.

cRPG battle exclusive fighters tend to rail on siege a whole lot more than Strategus participants or even the occassional siege-goer. I believe this is due to a low variation in their repertoire or skill base. They lack the situational awareness required to fight in close quarters combat (CQC), as well as being unable or unwilling to adapt their combat styles or weapons to fit the tight space fighting that is inevitable when engaging on a wall or on a chokepoint.

I personally have started carrying a dagger due to the fact I basically got it for freesies (and who doesn't like free shit). As a side effect, I've found a lot of utility with the knife on siege because it allows me to swing the thing like a maniac unimpeded. I see many people using their Halberds, Claymores, and other large and/or long weapons in close combat. Naturally, these weapons jam on backswings, overheads when they connect with teammates.

Finally, people are not sure how to deal with siege. The NA community as a whole is pretty shit at Siege because of our inexperience with the game mode. We need time to cultivate the proper battle etiquette (someone should really make a list for this). ie Don't stand directly behind the front line, don't report a teamwound JUST because it happened (assess the circumstances before reporting, no one on your team is trying to beat your shit in) etc.


#2. " Teamwork, Cohesion and Synergy™ " [Role warfare]
Siege catches a ton of flak because of the "single mindedness" or the "dumb knuckle dragging str 
builds" who traverse the server *cough* kutt *cough* 

As I've mentioned, *ALL* builds can thrive in siege, but it takes the mental fortitude and will of each individual combatant to implicitly TRUST each other combatant on the team to play their role (Going to make a separate post for the details).

- In a nutshell, STR builds do frontline combat.
- Shielders quit fucking hiding behind those shields and USE the shields as a linebreaker.
- Agi builds, fuck around with the fatties on the other team; lure them out of their defensive line. Particularly focus on breaking through the line that we try to open for you.
- Balanced builds fortify the line or break through as you see fit. You're the sweepers
- Archers, don't fucking stand around and shoot when the flag is going down. If you can put your face between the flag and my bardiche, just do it. It might save your x5.
- Crossbows, same thing as archers, except that siege might actually be a really great place to practice shotgun tactics.
- Anyone using long weapons; just put them away for now and use something else in CQC.
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: Inglorious on October 10, 2013, 05:34:56 pm
I avoided siege for the longest time due to the dominating factor of "If I have a two hand, I win". But now, it's not so bad; learned to kick/block
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: Carthan on October 10, 2013, 05:36:42 pm
Last night I believe siege hovered around 60 players
Reducing the battle player base to around 20-30

EDIT: To clarify that is a success
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: Hirlok on October 10, 2013, 05:38:59 pm
If you can put your face between the flag and my bardiche, just do it. It might save your x5.

Let me rephrase this: if you see a guy around your flag with a bardiche and funny red feathers sticking out of his butt, whip out that dagger and stab his face. He just asked for it. Heard it, archers? ;-)

The rest: wisdom. Dexx knows diz shit, even longer than me I think.
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: San on October 10, 2013, 05:59:44 pm
I had loads of fun playing siege with a 15/24 1h no shield cut damage only and did pretty well, you just can't play like a strength build (you can, it'll just be harder). You have to try to fight where there's space and spread your damage out among opponents who aren't paying attention to you/ hold off multiple foes without going in too deep and getting surrounded. Also another plus is that you can get to places quicker than your teammates, so it helps if you have an understanding of what's going on in the map.
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: Penitent on October 10, 2013, 06:05:56 pm
Siege requires a lot more teamwork than battle.  The team that works together the most is the one that keep the multi.  This is true for battle too, to an extent, but there's much less room for rambo- heroes in siege.
That being said, there is a good variety of siege maps, some with more open floor plans than others that can accommodate different tactics.

Personally, I stay on siege because I want to play and not wait.  Sure, I can browse the web while I'm dead in battle waiting for the next round...but I can do that shit at work.  If I actually have time to play CRPG in between work and family obligations, I want to MURDER DEATH KILL as much as possible and not fiddle around on youtube while I wait again and again to spawn. :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: Jona on October 10, 2013, 06:08:26 pm
People don't like siege because, while agility builds and light armor *can* flourish on it, it does take a certain degree of situational awareness to successfully fight in siege with those builds.

Also, I'll be the first to admit that the current siege layouts mod caters more to strength builds more so than Agility builds.

Personally, I believe a large determinant of the general siege hate comprise of 2 related, but distinctly separate issues:

#1. It's a different "game." [The problem with the Player]
Siege can be a meat-grinder or your own personal slaughterhouse-playground, depending on your experience.

cRPG battle exclusive fighters tend to rail on siege a whole lot more than Strategus participants or even the occassional siege-goer. I believe this is due to a low variation in their repertoire or skill base. They lack the situational awareness required to fight in close quarters combat (CQC), as well as being unable or unwilling to adapt their combat styles or weapons to fit the tight space fighting that is inevitable when engaging on a wall or on a chokepoint.

I personally have started carrying a dagger due to the fact I basically got it for freesies (and who doesn't like free shit). As a side effect, I've found a lot of utility with the knife on siege because it allows me to swing the thing like a maniac unimpeded. I see many people using their Halberds, Claymores, and other large and/or long weapons in close combat. Naturally, these weapons jam on backswings, overheads when they connect with teammates.

Finally, people are not sure how to deal with siege. The NA community as a whole is pretty shit at Siege because of our inexperience with the game mode. We need time to cultivate the proper battle etiquette (someone should really make a list for this). ie Don't stand directly behind the front line, don't report a teamwound JUST because it happened (assess the circumstances before reporting, no one on your team is trying to beat your shit in) etc.


#2. " Teamwork, Cohesion and Synergy™ " [Role warfare]
Siege catches a ton of flak because of the "single mindedness" or the "dumb knuckle dragging str 
builds" who traverse the server *cough* kutt *cough* 

As I've mentioned, *ALL* builds can thrive in siege, but it takes the mental fortitude and will of each individual combatant to implicitly TRUST each other combatant on the team to play their role (Going to make a separate post for the details).

- In a nutshell, STR builds do frontline combat.
- Shielders quit fucking hiding behind those shields and USE the shields as a linebreaker.
- Agi builds, fuck around with the fatties on the other team; lure them out of their defensive line. Particularly focus on breaking through the line that we try to open for you.
- Balanced builds fortify the line or break through as you see fit. You're the sweepers
- Archers, don't fucking stand around and shoot when the flag is going down. If you can put your face between the flag and my bardiche, just do it. It might save your x5.
- Crossbows, same thing as archers, except that siege might actually be a really great place to practice shotgun tactics.
- Anyone using long weapons; just put them away for now and use something else in CQC.

Nice suggestions overall... hope some battle / inexperienced siege players can learn something from it and will come to siege more often or at least play better when they do.  Just got a few additions / changes for yah:



I had loads of fun playing siege with a 15/24 1h no shield cut damage only and did pretty well, you just can't play like a strength build (you can, it'll just be harder). You have to try to fight where there's space and spread your damage out among opponents who aren't paying attention to you/ hold off multiple foes without going in too deep and getting surrounded. Also another plus is that you can get to places quicker than your teammates, so it helps if you have an understanding of what's going on in the map.

It really isn't that hard to play agi when you've got a liuyedao which can move faster than people eye's can track it... and swing through blocks each time. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: San on October 10, 2013, 06:17:45 pm
Stabless cut non-long 1h with 5PS and no shield?

One thing I forgot to mention is that many times it's more worth it to ignore an enemy and get to your destination than try to get him killed. Deciding how close to the flag you should fight the enemy is also important when thinking about how long it takes for people to spawn and come back.
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: Testicleez on October 10, 2013, 07:21:46 pm
The main reason I don't like siege is how you're constantly playing pretty much. I like Battle because if you die early in the round, you can get up & grab a snack or use the bathroom, etc. Also, in Battle, you can spend your time while being dead spectating other players. Nothing compares to when there's only 1 person left on each team, everyone in the server is watching, then one of the players is humiliated or killed in a funny way and the chat box lights up with "LOL/RIP IN PEACE/REKT!"

I just feel like everyone has some sense of individuality in Battle, whereas in Siege you can't notice.

Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: Carthan on October 10, 2013, 08:02:38 pm
Stabless cut non-long 1h with 5PS and no shield?

One thing I forgot to mention is that many times it's more worth it to ignore an enemy and get to your destination than try to get him killed. Deciding how close to the flag you should fight the enemy is also important when thinking about how long it takes for people to spawn and come back.
Very true, ninjas and stealth are actual features of siege.
No better feeling than creeping about the base and either assassinating people, or trying to capture the flag undetected.
(I mean seriously what other way do defenders have of winning other than watching their flag and entryways closely)
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: Dexxtaa on October 10, 2013, 09:05:28 pm
Very true, ninjas and stealth are actual features of siege.
No better feeling than creeping about the base and either assassinating people, or trying to capture the flag undetected.
(I mean seriously what other way do defenders have of winning other than watching their flag and entryways closely)

I remember keeping an eye on the flag in my full armor. Every few seconds I'd take a gander over at the flag and notice there was one or two fewer people guarding the flag, and I atttributed it to people getting bored and running off (were those bodies always there?). Finally, I get annoyed with people constantly "leaving" the flag and start typing a small essay in chat to get people back on it.

And that was when I got roflstomped by 3 people who were sitting around the corner ganking all the unsuspecting defenders until they finally finished me off (who was the farthest away from the flag, and also the heaviest armored).
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: dynamike on October 10, 2013, 09:44:12 pm
What I noticed about siege is there are always walls in the way.
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: Elindor on October 10, 2013, 10:13:26 pm
@ Dexxtaa and everyone else - siege love, I'm feelin it.

@ Inglorious - Um, I think when that was true it was also true in battle...but it's def not true in siege anymore either way

@ Sextinator - You like not playing much?  Ok...
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: DaruviansUnmutedAccount on October 10, 2013, 10:28:29 pm
Rolled NA2 with Cikel, Jack, Sandy, Havelle, other Frisians, and myself last night. I have learned one thing about siege from playing it last night; it is easier to win over and over because of a banner stack in siege than it is in battle. I think we won something like 15 straight rounds.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: no_rules_just_play on October 10, 2013, 10:34:56 pm
I'm happy you guys have found the glorious siege server :)

I remember keeping an eye on the flag in my full armor. Every few seconds I'd take a gander over at the flag and notice there was one or two fewer people guarding the flag, and I atttributed it to people getting bored and running off (were those bodies always there?). Finally, I get annoyed with people constantly "leaving" the flag and start typing a small essay in chat to get people back on it.

And that was when I got roflstomped by 3 people who were sitting around the corner ganking all the unsuspecting defenders until they finally finished me off (who was the farthest away from the flag, and also the heaviest armored).
I notice the same thing on EU2, but it's good that you start writing that essay ;) dont forget the caps and use a lot of curses!
Usually there is always the same people staying on the flag while the rest goes front ladder, even on castles where it is beyond retard to leave the flag in the beginning of the round. If people still think they should run off, wait untill you see the first sign of an enemy and then start spamming 'FLAG FLAG FLAG FLAG... FLAG FLAG' (you can prepare a full line of 'FLAGS' and press enter when it's time.

People think people staying at the flag don't help the team, but they don't understand that without them every round would be over within the first minute. Killing a guy on the front wall is as useless as it is easy as he will just swing his weapon into your face again after 10 seconds while you have a 30 sec respawn timer. Unless the front wall defence turns out to be unbreakable, it will also turn out that people that stayed on the flag end up topping the scoreboard.

Every map needs another approach both for defenders as for attackers and every round you should change your tactic. Not just you, but with  your whole team doing the same thing. I think teamwork and coordination in siege go beyond a much greater level than the 'stay together' or 'hold this hill' type of battle situations.

About the STR crutch builds on siege: put a few maulers on top of a ladder and it will indeed be untakeable, but have a few smart runners breaking a backdoor and taking the flag and the guys on the front wall won't even notice. Every build can do his thing, if you can't kill a lot of people you can still decide to capture or defend the gatehouse or to use your speed to push through defenses.
Title: Re: Meanwhile, on NA2...
Post by: mcdeath on October 10, 2013, 11:04:59 pm
There is only one reason I hate siege, the map rotation is completely fucked up. Last night I played a map twice in three maps. That is ridiculous and it keeps me out of the server

Rolled NA2 with Cikel, Jack, Sandy, Havelle, other Frisians, and myself last night. I have learned one thing about siege from playing it last night; it is easier to win over and over because of a banner stack in siege than it is in battle. I think we won something like 15 straight rounds.

(click to show/hide)
.

Hey I was there. You can't forget the guy that would open the gate on defense or team wound sandy 9 times a round