cRPG

cRPG => Beginner's Help and Guides => Topic started by: Zhyang on September 17, 2013, 03:04:15 pm

Title: Native
Post by: Zhyang on September 17, 2013, 03:04:15 pm

Anyone knows the build of native infantry? swadian , rhodok  ..? would be very helpfull (:
  :D

Title: Re: Native
Post by: Vodner on September 17, 2013, 03:25:58 pm

There's an outdated post here (http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?topic=183659.0), showing what the stats of the various classes were in 2011.

If you want up-to-date stats, then download the module system (http://download2.taleworlds.com/mb_warband_module_system_1158.zip). You can open module_troops.py, and scroll down the multiplayer troops section. Make sure you don't look at the multiplayer AI troops section instead - those have different stats.

Be aware that the troops are level ~20, and generally don't have minmaxed stats. Also, some of the troops have stats that aren't normally allowed. For example, in 1.143 Nord infantry has 14 strength and 5 PS (and probably in the most recent version too).

Title: Re: Native
Post by: Ronin on September 17, 2013, 03:33:21 pm

...and changes in the most recent patch according to this guy: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,282472.msg6732182.html#msg6732182

The most suitable way is to check it via the most recent module system --> download it, install it (install Notepad++), then go to module_troops, then search for this: "swadian_crossbowman_multiplayer". There, you have the list of their stats. Make sure you are not checking this: "swadian_crossbowman_multiplayer_ai"

Title: Re: Native
Post by: Zhyang on September 17, 2013, 04:15:50 pm

thanks ,

Title: Re: Native
Post by: Boerenlater on September 19, 2013, 01:20:02 pm

Care to post em here?

Title: Re: Native
Post by: Zhyang on September 19, 2013, 08:43:45 pm

no

Title: Re: Native
Post by: Boerenlater on September 20, 2013, 12:56:02 pm

Quote from: Zhyang on September 19, 2013, 08:43:45 pm

no

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Title: Re: Native
Post by: Zhyang on September 20, 2013, 03:51:46 pm

.

Title: Re: Native
Post by: Tennenoth on September 21, 2013, 01:57:51 am

(click to show/hide)

["swadian_crossbowman_multiplayer","Swadian Crossbowman","Swadian Crossbowmen",tf_guarantee_all,0,0,fac_kingdom_1,
   [itm_bolts,itm_crossbow,itm_sword_medieval_b_small,itm_tab_shield_heater_a,itm_red_shirt,itm_ankle_boots],
   str_14 | agi_15 |def_attrib_multiplayer|level(19),wpe(90,60,180,90),knows_common_multiplayer|knows_ironflesh_2|knows_athletics_4|knows_shield_5|knows_power_strike_2|knows_riding_1,swadian_face_young_1, swadian_face_old_2],
  ["swadian_infantry_multiplayer","Swadian Infantry","Swadian Infantry",tf_guarantee_all,0,0,fac_kingdom_1,
   [itm_sword_medieval_a,itm_tab_shield_heater_a,itm_red_tunic,itm_ankle_boots],
   str_15 | agi_15 |def_attrib_multiplayer|level(20),wpex(105,130,110,40,60,110),knows_common_multiplayer|knows_ironflesh_5|knows_shield_4|knows_power_strike_4|knows_power_throw_2|knows_athletics_6|knows_riding_1,swadian_face_middle_1, swadian_face_old_2],
  ["swadian_man_at_arms_multiplayer","Swadian Man at Arms","Swadian Men at Arms",tf_mounted|tf_guarantee_all,0,0,fac_kingdom_1,
   [itm_lance,itm_sword_medieval_a,itm_tab_shield_heater_a,
    itm_red_tunic,itm_ankle_boots,itm_saddle_horse],
   str_14 | agi_16 |def_attrib_multiplayer|level(20),wp_melee(110),knows_common_multiplayer|knows_riding_5|knows_ironflesh_3|knows_shield_2|knows_power_throw_2|knows_power_strike_3|knows_athletics_3,swadian_face_young_1, swadian_face_old_2],
#  ["swadian_mounted_crossbowman_multiplayer","Swadian Mounted Crossbowman","Swadian Mounted Crossbowmen",tf_mounted|tf_guarantee_all,0,0,fac_kingdom_1,
#   [itm_bolts,itm_light_crossbow,itm_tab_shield_heater_cav_a,itm_bastard_sword_a,
#    itm_red_shirt,itm_hide_boots,itm_saddle_horse],
#   def_attrib_multiplayer|level(20),wp_melee(100)|wp_crossbow(120),knows_common_multiplayer|knows_riding_4|knows_shield_3|knows_ironflesh_3|knows_horse_archery_2|knows_power_strike_3|knows_athletics_2|knows_shield_2,swadian_face_young_1, swadian_face_old_2],
  ["vaegir_archer_multiplayer","Vaegir Archer","Vaegir Archers",tf_guarantee_all,0,0,fac_kingdom_2,
   [itm_arrows,itm_mace_1,itm_nomad_bow,
    itm_linen_tunic,itm_hide_boots],
   str_14 | agi_14 |def_attrib_multiplayer|str_12|level(19),wpe(80,150,60,80),knows_common_multiplayer|knows_ironflesh_2|knows_power_draw_7|knows_athletics_3|knows_shield_2|knows_riding_1,vaegir_face_young_1, vaegir_face_older_2],
  ["vaegir_spearman_multiplayer","Vaegir Spearman","Vaegir spearman",tf_guarantee_ranged|tf_guarantee_boots|tf_guarantee_armor|tf_guarantee_helmet|tf_guarantee_ranged|tf_guarantee_shield,0,0,fac_kingdom_2,
   [itm_spear, itm_tab_shield_kite_a, itm_mace_1,
    itm_linen_tunic,itm_hide_boots],
   str_15 | agi_15 |def_attrib_multiplayer|str_12|level(19),wpex(110,100,130,30,50,120),knows_common_multiplayer|knows_ironflesh_4|knows_shield_2|knows_power_throw_3|knows_power_strike_4|knows_athletics_6|knows_riding_1,vaegir_face_young_1, vaegir_face_older_2],
  ["vaegir_horseman_multiplayer","Vaegir Horseman","Vaegir Horsemen",tf_mounted|tf_guarantee_all,0,0,fac_kingdom_2,
   [itm_scimitar,itm_lance,itm_tab_shield_kite_cav_a,
    itm_linen_tunic,itm_hide_boots,itm_saddle_horse],
   str_16 | agi_15 |def_attrib_multiplayer|level(19),wpe(110,90,60,110),knows_common_multiplayer|knows_riding_5|knows_ironflesh_4|knows_power_strike_3|knows_shield_3|knows_power_throw_4|knows_horse_archery_1,vaegir_face_young_1, vaegir_face_older_2],
  ["khergit_veteran_horse_archer_multiplayer","Khergit Horse Archer","Khergit Horse Archers",tf_mounted|tf_guarantee_all,0,0,fac_kingdom_3,
   [itm_sword_khergit_1,itm_nomad_bow,itm_arrows,
    itm_khergit_armor,itm_leather_steppe_cap_a,itm_hide_boots,itm_steppe_horse],
   str_15 | agi_18 |def_attrib_multiplayer|level(21),wpe(70,142,60,100),knows_common_multiplayer|knows_riding_2|knows_power_draw_5|knows_horse_archery_3|knows_athletics_3|knows_shield_1,khergit_face_middle_1, khergit_face_older_2],
  ["khergit_infantry_multiplayer","Khergit Infantry","Khergit Infantries",tf_guarantee_all,0,0,fac_kingdom_3,
   [itm_sword_khergit_1,itm_spear,itm_tab_shield_small_round_a,
    itm_steppe_armor,itm_hide_boots,itm_leather_gloves],
   str_14 | agi_15 |def_attrib_multiplayer|level(19),wp(110),knows_common_multiplayer|knows_ironflesh_3|knows_power_throw_3|knows_shield_4|knows_power_strike_3|knows_athletics_6|knows_riding_1,khergit_face_middle_1, khergit_face_older_2],
  ["khergit_lancer_multiplayer","Khergit Lancer","Khergit Lancers",tf_mounted|tf_guarantee_all,0,0,fac_kingdom_3,
   [itm_sword_khergit_1,itm_lance,itm_tab_shield_small_round_a,
    itm_khergit_armor,itm_leather_steppe_cap_a,itm_hide_boots,itm_steppe_horse],
   str_15 | agi_14 |def_attrib_multiplayer|level(21),wp(115),knows_common_multiplayer|knows_riding_6|knows_ironflesh_3|knows_power_throw_3|knows_shield_4|knows_power_strike_3|knows_athletics_4,khergit_face_middle_1, khergit_face_older_2],
  ["nord_archer_multiplayer","Nord Archer","Nord Archers",tf_guarantee_all,0,0,fac_kingdom_4,
   [itm_arrows,itm_sword_viking_2_small,itm_short_bow,
    itm_blue_tunic,itm_leather_boots],
   str_15 | agi_14 |def_attrib_multiplayer|str_11|level(15),wpe(90,150,60,80),knows_common_multiplayer|knows_ironflesh_2|knows_power_strike_2|knows_shield_3|knows_power_draw_5|knows_athletics_3|knows_riding_1,nord_face_young_1, nord_face_old_2],
  ["nord_veteran_multiplayer","Nord Huscarl","Nord Huscarls",tf_guarantee_all,0,0,fac_kingdom_4,
   [itm_sword_viking_1,itm_one_handed_war_axe_a,itm_tab_shield_round_a,
    itm_blue_tunic,itm_leather_boots],
   str_17 | agi_15 |def_attrib_multiplayer|level(24),wpex(110,135,100,40,60,140),knows_common_multiplayer|knows_ironflesh_4|knows_power_strike_5|knows_power_throw_4|knows_athletics_6|knows_shield_3|knows_riding_1,nord_face_young_1, nord_face_older_2],
  ["nord_scout_multiplayer","Nord Scout","Nord Scouts",tf_mounted|tf_guarantee_all,0,0,fac_kingdom_4,
   [itm_javelin,itm_sword_viking_1,itm_spear,itm_tab_shield_small_round_a,
    itm_blue_tunic,itm_leather_boots,itm_saddle_horse],
   str_16 | agi_15 |def_attrib_multiplayer|level(19),wp(105),knows_common_multiplayer|knows_riding_6|knows_ironflesh_2|knows_power_strike_2|knows_shield_1|knows_horse_archery_3|knows_power_throw_3|knows_athletics_3,vaegir_face_young_1, vaegir_face_older_2],
  ["rhodok_veteran_crossbowman_multiplayer","Rhodok Crossbowman","Rhodok Crossbowmen",tf_guarantee_all,0,0,fac_kingdom_5,
   [itm_crossbow,itm_bolts,itm_fighting_pick,itm_tab_shield_pavise_a,
    itm_tunic_with_green_cape,itm_ankle_boots],
   str_16 | agi_15 |def_attrib_multiplayer|level(20),wpe(100,60,180,90),knows_common_multiplayer|knows_ironflesh_2|knows_shield_2|knows_power_strike_2|knows_athletics_4|knows_riding_1,rhodok_face_middle_1, rhodok_face_older_2],
  ["rhodok_sergeant_multiplayer","Rhodok Sergeant","Rhodok Sergeants",tf_guarantee_all,0,0,fac_kingdom_5,
   [itm_fighting_pick,itm_tab_shield_pavise_a,itm_spear,
    itm_green_tunic,itm_ankle_boots],
   str_16 | agi_14 |def_attrib_multiplayer|level(20),wpex(110,100,140,30,50,110),knows_common_multiplayer|knows_ironflesh_4|knows_shield_5|knows_power_strike_4|knows_power_throw_1|knows_athletics_6|knows_riding_1,rhodok_face_middle_1, rhodok_face_older_2],
  ["rhodok_horseman_multiplayer","Rhodok Horseman","Rhodok Horsemen",tf_guarantee_all,0,0,fac_kingdom_5,
   [itm_sword_medieval_a,itm_tab_shield_heater_cav_a, itm_light_lance,
    itm_green_tunic,itm_ankle_boots,itm_saddle_horse],
   str_15 | agi_15 |def_attrib_multiplayer|level(20),wp(100),knows_common_multiplayer|knows_riding_4|knows_ironflesh_3|knows_shield_3|knows_power_strike_3|knows_power_throw_1|knows_athletics_3,rhodok_face_middle_1, rhodok_face_older_2],
  ["sarranid_archer_multiplayer","Sarranid Archer","Sarranid Archers",tf_guarantee_all,0,0,fac_kingdom_6,
   [itm_arrows,itm_arabian_sword_a,itm_nomad_bow,
    itm_sarranid_cloth_robe, itm_sarranid_boots_b],
   str_15 | agi_16 |def_attrib_multiplayer|str_12|level(19),wpe(80,150,60,80),knows_common_multiplayer|knows_ironflesh_4|knows_power_draw_5|knows_athletics_3|knows_shield_2|knows_riding_1|knows_weapon_master_1,vaegir_face_young_1, vaegir_face_older_2],
  ["sarranid_footman_multiplayer","Sarranid Footman","Sarranid footman",tf_guarantee_all,0,0,fac_kingdom_6,
   [itm_bamboo_spear, itm_tab_shield_kite_a, itm_arabian_sword_a,
    itm_sarranid_cloth_robe, itm_sarranid_boots_b],
   str_14 | agi_15 |def_attrib_multiplayer|str_12|level(19),wpex(110,100,130,30,50,120),knows_common_multiplayer|knows_ironflesh_4|knows_shield_2|knows_power_throw_3|knows_power_strike_4|knows_athletics_6|knows_riding_1,vaegir_face_young_1, vaegir_face_older_2],
  ["sarranid_mamluke_multiplayer","Sarranid Mamluke","Sarranid Mamluke",tf_mounted|tf_guarantee_all,0,0,fac_kingdom_6,
   [itm_arabian_sword_a,itm_lance,itm_tab_shield_small_round_a,
    itm_sarranid_cloth_robe, itm_sarranid_boots_b,itm_saddle_horse],
   str_15 | agi_14 |def_attrib_multiplayer|level(19),wpe(110,90,60,110),knows_common_multiplayer|knows_riding_5|knows_ironflesh_3|knows_power_strike_2|knows_shield_3|knows_power_throw_2|knows_weapon_master_1,vaegir_face_young_1, vaegir_face_older_2],

So;

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Should be correct :)

Title: Re: Native
Post by: Vodner on September 21, 2013, 03:54:24 am

Reading the WPF:
* The single-parameter version sets all proficiencies to the same value.
* The four parameter version sets all three melee proficiencies to the first value. Archery, crossbow, and throwing are set to the remaining three values, respectively.
* The six parameter version sets one-handed, two-handed, polearm, archery, crossbow, and throwing proficiencies, respectively.

This is assuming the wp/wpe/wpex functions haven't changed since 1.143.

e:
Source:

(click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

def wp(x):
  n = 0
  r = 10 + int(x / 10)
#  n |= wp_one_handed(x + random.randrange(r))
#  n |= wp_two_handed(x + random.randrange(r))
#  n |= wp_polearm(x + random.randrange(r))
#  n |= wp_archery(x + random.randrange(r))
#  n |= wp_crossbow(x + random.randrange(r))
#  n |= wp_throwing(x + random.randrange(r))
  n |= wp_one_handed(x)
  n |= wp_two_handed(x)
  n |= wp_polearm(x)
  n |= wp_archery(x)
  n |= wp_crossbow(x)
  n |= wp_throwing(x)
  return n

def wpe(m,a,c,t):
   n = 0
   n |= wp_one_handed(m)
   n |= wp_two_handed(m)
   n |= wp_polearm(m)
   n |= wp_archery(a)
   n |= wp_crossbow(c)
   n |= wp_throwing(t)
   return n

def wpex(o,w,p,a,c,t):
   n = 0
   n |= wp_one_handed(o)
   n |= wp_two_handed(w)
   n |= wp_polearm(p)
   n |= wp_archery(a)
   n |= wp_crossbow(c)
   n |= wp_throwing(t)
   return n
   
def wp_melee(x):
  n = 0
  r = 10 + int(x / 10)
#  n |= wp_one_handed(x + random.randrange(r))
#  n |= wp_two_handed(x + random.randrange(r))
#  n |= wp_polearm(x + random.randrange(r))
  n |= wp_one_handed(x + 20)
  n |= wp_two_handed(x)
  n |= wp_polearm(x + 10)
  return n

Interestingly enough, it looks like TW originally intended for WPF to be slightly randomized (note the commented-out sections).

Title: Re: Native
Post by: Ronin on September 25, 2013, 06:53:47 pm

khergit lancer with 1 riding? There must be something wrong Tennenoth.

Title: Re: Native
Post by: Tennenoth on September 26, 2013, 03:23:18 am

Quote from: Ronin on September 25, 2013, 06:53:47 pm

khergit lancer with 1 riding? There must be something wrong Tennenoth.

Noooo, of course not.

knows_riding_6 has nothing to do with it  :lol:

The problem I had is that it isn't in any cohesive sequence so I tried to split it as best I could with a quick and dirty program, naturally I made a mistake somewhere. I've double checked the lot & I can't find any problems, post again if you find another.
(Updated the image)

Title: Re: Native
Post by: Ronin on September 26, 2013, 09:52:03 pm

Khergit horse archer with 0 powerdraw and 4 power throw.
Khergit infantry with 5 powerdraw and 0 power throw.
Something is wrong there :wink:

Title: Re: Native
Post by: Tennenoth on September 28, 2013, 09:55:55 pm

Quote from: Ronin on September 26, 2013, 09:52:03 pm

Khergit horse archer with 0 powerdraw and 4 power throw.
Khergit infantry with 5 powerdraw and 0 power throw.
Something is wrong there :wink:

I guess my program some how gained my passive dislike for that particular Faction.

(Also, those one thousand and one eyes seem to be helping quite a lot)

Title: Re: Native
Post by: MrDeucer on September 28, 2013, 11:20:58 pm

Not a lot of power strike in Native, that could be good or bad compared to cRPG.

Title: Re: Native
Post by: Vodner on September 29, 2013, 01:30:45 am

Quote from: MrDeucer on September 28, 2013, 11:20:58 pm

Not a lot of power strike in Native, that could be good or bad compared to cRPG.

People usually wear less armor in Native, so it balances out. People generally drop in 1-3 hits (potentially more if you are one of the non-infantry classes, and your opponent is using the better armors).

Title: Re: Native
Post by: Ronin on September 30, 2013, 10:37:17 am

Quote from: Vodner on September 29, 2013, 01:30:45 am

People usually wear less armor in Native, so it balances out. People generally drop in 1-3 hits (potentially more if you are one of the non-infantry classes, and your opponent is using the better armors).

People do wear less armor, yet armor works differently in crpg compared to native. Search for armor soak formulas. I like the system of native much much better.

Quote from: Tennenoth on September 28, 2013, 09:55:55 pm

I guess my program some how gained my passive dislike for that particular Faction.

(Also, those one thousand and one eyes seem to be helping quite a lot)

:lol:

Title: Re: Native
Post by: Vodner on September 30, 2013, 03:34:14 pm

Quote from: Ronin on September 30, 2013, 10:37:17 am

People do wear less armor, yet armor works differently in crpg compared to native. Search for armor soak formulas. I like the system of native much much better.
 :lol:

The formula for soak and reduce is the same for both Native and cRPG. Native simply has slightly more soak, and considerably less reduce.

I do wish cRPG used the old values. Lethality was a lot higher prior to the increase in reduce (although glancing was more common).

Title: Re: Native
Post by: Ronin on September 30, 2013, 04:20:12 pm

Glancing was more common when you failed to land a hit properly, making armor to serve a real purpose.

Title: Re: Native
Post by: Xant on October 01, 2013, 08:09:17 am

Quote from: Vodner on September 30, 2013, 03:34:14 pm

The formula for soak and reduce is the same for both Native and cRPG. Native simply has slightly more soak, and considerably less reduce.

I do wish cRPG used the old values. Lethality was a lot higher prior to the increase in reduce (although glancing was more common).

In general, I wish cRPG was more like it was in early 2011.

Glancing was a lot more common before the new values, but you still only glanced on bad hits. I didn't even notice a change in the amount of (my) glances before and after the change.

Title: Re: Native
Post by: Ronin on October 01, 2013, 09:09:11 am

It was a much better system indeed. I was mostly using my armor to block unproperly executed attacks. The armor was more effective to ranged fire as well, save for high damage crossbows and jarids/t. lances.

However one should not forget that, armor weights in crpg in also halved. See for Mail Hauberk for example. It has 10.3 weight in crpg, and it has 19.0 weight in native (it is a funny fact though, it protects you much more in native). One thinks who the hell thought of this genuine idea.


What I would welcome is, to increase armor weights considerably and using the old armor soak formulas. Re-defining their values would be a better option rather than doubling the armor weights and leaving the protection values as they are now, as a group of milanese plate users would be slow as fuck but near to invincible to beat up close; with their 55.8 weight and 64 armor (not to mention the bonus from hand armor). Ranged will be of no help since these infantry can also use shields to protect themselves. It is just, the current balance is very much based on these armor soak formulas. It doesn't mean they can't be adjusted, or would you prefer playing with armors made of paper?

Title: Re: Native
Post by: Paul on October 01, 2013, 09:32:53 am

Ranged approximately uses the old soak and reduce values. Melee soak/reduce will stay as it is because I don't like bouncing from a perfect hit and I won't support battlefield apartheid with making platers invincible to 50% of the combatants. Armor weights in cRPG are realistic afaik. Finally saying current plate armors are made of "paper" is a bit retarded.

In my experience wearing heavy armor significantly increases the amount of operational mistakes one can make in a round while it's weight slowdown decreases the tactical freedom. In other words you can take more hits but you can't get away when being in deep shit. Seems fine to me.

Title: Re: Native
Post by: Ronin on October 01, 2013, 10:12:02 am

It is a better system to punish mistakes indeed, but it comes with a cost. Your armor doesn't protect you from unproperly executed attacks (doesn't make them glance), it only lessens the effects of them. It makes it impossible to use your armor offensively as you can do in native. In Native, you can get up very close to your enemy to make his/her attacks to glance on your armor; thus taking the initiative. In cRPG, this tactic fails as your opponent hits you in a realistically impossible way, he/she swings his whatever weapon he has and it executes a hiltslash. This makes cRPG to have, how to say, "less depth" in combat if you ask me. Your armor only acts as a dress with an + 10 life enchantment. It makes you die in 5-6 hits instead of 2-3. One might think it is more than enough, but in my opinion it lacks an important dimension of combat. It should require another knowledge to fight against an armored opponent. (such as benefitting from their slowness)


I'm not suggesting for perfect hits to bounce off of armor, nor I am suggesting platers to be invincible to 50% of combatants. I would just welcome to not feel like they are made of linen or silk (in order to not be a retard by stating that they are made of paper).