cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Heroin on September 12, 2013, 02:21:27 am

Title: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Heroin on September 12, 2013, 02:21:27 am
Ok, so a long time ago, when chadz made all crossbows 2 slots, it was stated that training lessons would be auctioned more frequently to drive down the price to a reasonable level. 3 million gold isn't reasonable.

As a two-hander, I wear the following:

Sarranid Keffiyeh Helm
Sarranid Cavalry Robe
Leather Gloves
Nomad Boots
2 hander (Longsword/Miaodao/Katana)

I think most people in the game would agree that this is on the light side of armor/gear in the game. 3 million gold is still WAY out of reach. For players who were level 33+ with 2h/xbow hybrid and heirloomed items for this build, it seems like they're being punished to have to spend 3 million on a respec just to get rid of their xbow proficiency that they can no longer use effectively. I'm sure the same case could be made for other builds that got shafted by various patches.

Why should someone have to part with 6-9 generations worth of their precious heirlooms just to fix a build that they themselves didn't break? Why create policies that make the entire crpg experience less fun for the community? The only reason anyone else is arguing against this, ever, is out of malice. The only people arguing it are either closet or open sadists.

In other words, why u so mean, chadz?


P.S. I think having a daily training lesson auction would be a good first step towards making the game more enjoyable for everyone. I know that I, personally, have been playing much less while waiting patiently for my chance to buy a respec. If others are/have done the same, it's contributing to the decline of the game, which is never good. Fix it before it's too late! More respec's CAN'T hurt, it can only help.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: MURDERTRON on September 12, 2013, 02:33:30 am
Just retire you gay baby.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Heroin on September 12, 2013, 02:49:14 am
Just retire you gay baby.

Do you really spend that much time on the forums, that you see every post I make and troll it, or do you just look for my specific threads? Either way, you've got a lot of time on your hands. I don't know whether to envy you or pity you.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Malaclypse on September 12, 2013, 02:55:32 am
It's a bummer, and it would be nice to have the auctions pop up more frequent. At least Hunting Crossbow is still pretty beastly +3 with +3 Steel Bolts; that's what Riran switched his loadout to after the change.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Heroin on September 12, 2013, 03:10:41 am
It's a bummer, and it would be nice to have the auctions pop up more frequent. At least Hunting Crossbow is still pretty beastly +3 with +3 Steel Bolts; that's what Riran switched his loadout to after the change.

Yeah, doesn't help my +3 xbow, +3 arb, +3 steel bolts, +3 longsword, +3 katana, +3 miaodao.....That's like 18 generations of looms that were made incompatible. And now I have to pay 3+ million to NOT be able to use them together.

lol, all I can do is laugh and shake my head at the poor decision-making that has happened over and over again. The entire mod is riding on the coat tails of two amazing ideas made over 3 years ago, followed by poor decisions one after another. Proof that one good idea can get you pretty far. But if things continue this way, we're going to see exactly how far that one good idea can take you without supporting good policies.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: MURDERTRON on September 12, 2013, 03:59:32 am
I was lance cav and it got nerfed twice in two weeks, but I didn't make a crybaby thread about it.  I retired, bought some other shit with my loompoint and kept playing.

Grab a hunting crossbow, which you can easily trade for, though at a slight loss.

This is CRPG, you will get nerfed.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: San on September 12, 2013, 05:09:38 am
The competition to get it is annoying. You know you're screwing someone else over / feel terrible while waiting months to get it since a week is a pretty long time for another one. The demand is so high that there are increasingly more people who want it than there are people getting it week after week.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: mokuchin on September 12, 2013, 05:34:03 am
if the price of training lessons is over around 2.75m, I will consider it's not reasonable and I won't buy it.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Falka on September 12, 2013, 07:44:53 am
Ok, so a long time ago, when chadz made all crossbows 2 slots, it was stated that training lessons would be auctioned more frequently

I want to remind you that initially training lessons were once a month and now they're once a week. Seems like "more frequently", but what do I know... Also in one gen of playing with cheap (but not necessarily crappy) gear you can earn up to 400 k gold. Play 2 gens, retire 2 times and you have around 1.5 mln gold.

if the price of training lessons is over around 2.75m, I will consider it's not reasonable and I won't buy it.

Price below 3 mln is okay according to me. If you want to get lessons you have to sacrifice sth, items or your time, grinding on the servers or scamming ppl on the market (that's what I did when I wanted to buy lessons  :P).

Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Harpag on September 12, 2013, 10:10:04 am
Create clan and then tell your clanmate that you need some money - problem solved  :D  or just sell 1 or 2 masterwork/lordly items and make 1 or 2 looms by cheap alt plus your savings and you have enough money. Stop QQ - wate of time - chadz will never help you in grinding  :P
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Moncho on September 12, 2013, 10:28:40 am
you just got 2.65 mil from selling 3 loompoints, and you are complaining about this?
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Grumbs on September 12, 2013, 01:16:37 pm
Yeah, doesn't help my +3 xbow, +3 arb, +3 steel bolts, +3 longsword, +3 katana, +3 miaodao.....That's like 18 generations of looms that were made incompatible. And now I have to pay 3+ million to NOT be able to use them together.

lol, all I can do is laugh and shake my head at the poor decision-making that has happened over and over again. The entire mod is riding on the coat tails of two amazing ideas made over 3 years ago, followed by poor decisions one after another. Proof that one good idea can get you pretty far. But if things continue this way, we're going to see exactly how far that one good idea can take you without supporting good policies.

Because xbow, 2 hander and medium armour was a totally legit playstyle? Xbows are still the worst implemented things in the game. Just trade your 2 handers for the new lolstabbing 1 handers and not much has changed. Or use the Hunting spambow, its actually quite good

Training lessons might be put out more frequently, but the issues they changed that led to you wanting one were not bad decisions, and you can always trade your gear and carry on
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Prpavi on September 12, 2013, 01:17:40 pm
I wouldn't mind respeccing my 32 lvl main to an Archer. Not gonna pay 3 mil though, I fully support daily Training Lessons.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Vovka on September 12, 2013, 01:30:16 pm
devs need hold caracters on mid levels like 30-32 and they need a gold flow so no dailly training lessons for u  :twisted:
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Ganner on September 12, 2013, 01:34:10 pm
The whole point of the respec auction is to get money out of the system.

Right now what we have is a very large amount of gold going out of the system infrequently (3+ mil going out once a week) which is really inefficient. It impacts the one person that lost all the gold, but it also impacts all the traders that are hoarding their gold until they can get their respec, which may be months. I normally would be on the auction house a lot, but since i am saving for a respec, i have bought and sold very little in the last few months on the off chance i'll be able to afford a respec and need the fluid cash.

A better system would be to have a flat fee respec that would take smaller(but still large) amounts of gold out more frequently. Set the price around 1.5 - 2 mil and you would have a sudden huge loss of gold from the economy from everyone who has been trying to get one and failed, and everyone that will need one later on. This will help new players because now with less gold, looms become more valuable again since a large pool of gold has just been removed from the playerbase.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Grumbs on September 12, 2013, 01:54:13 pm
Add very expensive unique looking loomed items to the shop and some guys will want them, even if they are identical in function to normal items. This would be a pretty good gold sync imo. Could even have a 1 per 6 month unique item, put it on auction and watch the gold disappear from the economy. Golden Donkey or something. Someone will buy it
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Jack1 on September 12, 2013, 02:30:59 pm
Add a poisonous rondel to the auction for a month. I would bet it would go past 10 million
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Heroin on September 12, 2013, 02:58:54 pm
you just got 2.65 mil from selling 3 loompoints, and you are complaining about this?

First, I didn't sell 3 loompoints. I hosted an event to raise money. And yes, I raised about 2.6 million to go towards a respec. I still can't afford one, even with that money. That's the problem. If they introduced daily respecs, it wouldn't hurt any of you arguing against it. It would only help the enjoyment of the game for those who need them, and might even bring some people back who'd been drifting away.

And if they brought in daily training lessons, prices would still be fairly high for a good while(taking a larger burst of gold out of the economy), then would probably stabilize around 500k per auction, which I think is reasonable based on what someone can get in a generation or two of naked dagger games. And 500k daily is 3.5 million weekly out of the economy. This still takes the same amount of money out of the economy, but is actually helpful to the players playing the game who need the respecs.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: MURDERTRON on September 12, 2013, 03:35:22 pm
Everyone respecing to the build du jour would actually hurt everyone and take depth out of the game.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Kafein on September 12, 2013, 03:49:52 pm
You do realise that :

1) Respecs are essentially a bad thing that has to remain rare otherwise the game will pretty soon be stuck with everybody at level 35 never retiring ever again (it's not like this has already be happening for quite a long time anyway)
2) People collectively hoarding gold to buy respecs actually drive prices down much more than just one person buying it. It drastically reduces the liquidity available to the market.
3) Introducing respecs now would be a dagger in the back of people that wanted respecs for previous patches and never got them. Now that it's your class being nerfed or your items having different slots/difficulty shouldn't change anything.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Vermilion on September 12, 2013, 04:07:44 pm
If they introduced daily respecs, it wouldn't hurt any of you arguing against it.

The main issue I can see is it's affect on strat. If the price gets too low, the people who can currently afford the 3mil (there must be quite a few to keep upping the bid every week) would be able to respec for any battle.

So either the amount of auctions has to be dictated by the going price of the previous one (eg over 1.5 mil ad there are two auctions instead of 1, over 2 mil there are 3 auctions and over 3mil and there are 4 auctions) or you would have to have multiple auctions for the same day (eg 4 autions up for a week all ending on the same day).

Good luck with getting your respec!
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Corsair831 on September 12, 2013, 04:22:10 pm
i'm afraid we've reached a point where the mod isn't dead, but the development is

a point most games reach unfortunately

Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Swaggart on September 12, 2013, 04:34:22 pm
This will help new players because now with less gold, looms become more valuable again since a large pool of gold has just been removed from the playerbase.

If anything, with less money floating around loom and loom point prices will drop to accommodate the lower gold supply.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Swaggart on September 12, 2013, 04:36:46 pm
3) Introducing respecs now would be a dagger in the back of people that wanted respecs for previous patches and never got them. Now that it's your class being nerfed or your items having different slots/difficulty shouldn't change anything.

But that would mean that any further changes would also have this effect to at least some portion of the player population (archer looms, for example, lost a lot of value since the last patch). Doesn't mean that change should stop.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 12, 2013, 05:10:33 pm
I think the bigger issue is that the game is still in beta.  When they make large changes to the way the game works (i.e. changing slots on items, drastically changing values of items, changing requirements to equip items, etc) they should either allow people to respec, or reset everyone's characters to scratch (but you keep your gold/equipment). 

There's been a lot of good game mechanic changes, and I think that increasing the riding requirement on horses was good, as well as making crossbows 2 slots instead of 1.  But it really did fuck over quite a lot of people who were "finished" retiring, and even caused people to quit the game due to their builds/equipment being no longer useable. 
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Prpavi on September 12, 2013, 05:33:58 pm
I think the bigger issue is that the game mod is still in beta. 

This mod will always be in beta, what's your point? Or were you reffering to Warband which is not in beta obv.

They can't change anything drastically due to limitations of the engine, that's why we have you know what, wink wink.

The mod won't last in current format more than a year form now for obvious reasons, so let the people enjoy while it lasts. Kad je bal nek je maskenbal!
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Jona on September 12, 2013, 05:50:46 pm
I want to remind you that initially training lessons were once a month and now they're once a week. Seems like "more frequently", but what do I know... Also in one gen of playing with cheap (but not necessarily crappy) gear you can earn up to 400 k gold. Play 2 gens, retire 2 times and you have around 1.5 mln gold.

Great math skills.... seriously, A+ for you.



(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)



caused people to quit the game due to their builds/equipment being no longer useable. 

sorry, but if you are level 35 and your build is a 2h hybrid... your build is still probably the most OP build around, and quite usable. You don't need much xbow wpf to effectively use an xbow, and anyone who uses a 2hander as opposed to a 1hander and xbow clearly prioritizes melee anyways. sure it would suck to lose "half of your build" but in reality xbows require such little investment (wpf barely affects melee weps anyways) that anyone who is 2h/xbow is barely even a hybrid in my book. and if you have got some +3s sitting around.. sell em. simple enough fix.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Eddy on September 12, 2013, 05:54:33 pm
Great math skills.... seriously, A+ for you.



(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)
Ever heard of the word "logic"?
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Jona on September 12, 2013, 05:57:42 pm
Ever heard of the word "logic"?
(click to show/hide)

Well yeah, but that requires the selling of loompoints. Talking strictly about making money at no loss (other than no more heavy armor), he was way off in his estimate. The OP clearly doesn't want to sell any looms, otherwise he could sell his useless +3s and instantly get training lessons.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: MURDERTRON on September 12, 2013, 06:23:54 pm
Falka is right.  Kind of.  In your first gen you will make about 400k since you don't pay repairs until 26.  Next gen you'll make ~200k depending on your gear obviously.

Also, this game (actually mod) will always be in beta.  Since donkey crew can never get paid for this game, they have no reason to say its a finished product when they can hide behind the beta label to cover up their incompetences and other issues.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: San on September 12, 2013, 06:42:48 pm
I think 2 million on the site is fair and does a proper job of removing gold from the economy, especially since the alternative is losing 1-2 levels. 2 million is a non-trivial amount and a fixed price is better than what we have now. It took me a year to make a few million in gold without selling loompoints, so it's not an option you can just spam at will. Waiting and hoarding gold only makes people not play/play less. Auction is a roundabout way of doing this, since it only takes 2-3 people wanting it to lock others out almost permanently.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Lt_Anders on September 12, 2013, 06:57:20 pm
Why don't we just corner the market?

Make a post and we can then control, to a lesser degree, who get the training lessons and at reasonable prices.

IE: Make a Post, and people register for training lessons(assuming we stay at current rate of course). Then everyone who registers then set a price(say 1.5 mln) and they bet that. All others bow out for that week to let the registered player(by post order, i guess) get it. Most people who do training lessons are in a clan/use the forums so everyone can easily do this. Of course, if someone wishes to troll outbid them I guess they could, but they'd need some serious money to beat the collective.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: MURDERTRON on September 12, 2013, 07:17:51 pm
You guys keep saying that taking ~3 million out of the economy every week has a big impact on the overal economy.  It does not.  You need to consider how much money is generated per minute, hour, day or week to truly understand it.  On a 70 person server, with everyone on 1x, 3500 gold per minute is generated.  That's not that bad, but we know multipliers exist.  When half of that 70 players are on 5x, 10500 is generated per minute.  If this happens for an hour, thats over 600000 generated in just one hour.  Of course, you can say that people are paying repairs, or someone got team balanced or joined late.  These are all true, but there can be people getting valor even more players on the server to balance that out.  You can also say that the servers are not always so populated, but then you must remember there are many other servers.  Also, each minute each player becomes that much closer to their next loom point.  So not only do you need to delete gold, you'd aim to delete the gold alternative, which are loom points.

I've been playing for a year now, and loom points are at the lowest price I have ever seen them.  They are hovering around 400000, which is proving, we are in fact, not taking enough gold out of the economy.

But I guess it is easy to use short sighted economics to lobby for something you personally want, especially when you don't back it up with numbers, just feelings.  You sound like republicans.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Lt_Anders on September 12, 2013, 07:27:17 pm
You guys keep saying that taking ~3 million out of the economy every week has a big impact on the overal economy.  It does not.  You need to consider how much money is generated per minute, hour, day or week to truly understand it.  On a 70 person server, with everyone on 1x, 3500 gold per minute is generated.  That's not that bad, but we know multipliers exist.  When half of that 70 players are on 5x, 10500 is generated per minute.  If this happens for an hour, thats over 600000 generated in just one hour.  Of course, you can say that people are paying repairs, or someone got team balanced or joined late.  These are all true, but there can be people getting valor even more players on the server to balance that out.  You can also say that the servers are not always so populated, but then you must remember there are many other servers.  Also, each minute each player becomes that much closer to their next loom point.  So not only do you need to delete gold, you'd aim to delete the gold alternative, which are loom points.

I've been playing for a year now, and loom points are at the lowest price I have ever seen them.  They are hovering around 400000, which is proving, we are in fact, not taking enough gold out of the economy.

But I guess it is easy to use short sighted economics to lobby for something you personally want, especially when you don't back it up with numbers, just feelings.  You sound like republicans.

Generated, per person. Sounds like clever Rhetoric. BTW the average multi is x2, so you should redo your math. 7000 per minute is generated or 420,000 per hour. That's 1 loom point. So, yea, 3 mln is pretty high. That's not counting repairs, mind you. So for SEVENTY people, you generate less than 1 loompoints worth of gold per hour.

Average was calculated BEFORE the new valour system, so that means it might be like 2.25, but its still right around a x2 average Multi. Murder, if you're going to pull facts, use PROPER facts.

Not to mention that that amount is distributed amongst the whole player base. For 1 day of play, that's on average, 144,000 gold generated(24 block) not counting repairs. Thats 21 days of SOLID 24 hour play to make 3 mln gold, not counting repairs.  Or if we assume an average of 5 hours per day of play, at x2, that's 100 days of play to equal 3 mln.

Player skill affects this, but for the majority...
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Phew on September 12, 2013, 07:42:15 pm
"Mini respecs" should be sold as a commodity in the equipment shop. They would each allow 1 stat point, 2 skill points, or ~100wpp to be changed. Cost should be 50-100k. This way you could make small tweaks to your build without having to pony up 3 mil for a respec auction, but wholesale class changes would still be prohibitively expensive.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: MURDERTRON on September 12, 2013, 09:54:29 pm
Generated, per person. Sounds like clever Rhetoric. BTW the average multi is x2, so you should redo your math. 7000 per minute is generated or 420,000 per hour. That's 1 loom point. So, yea, 3 mln is pretty high. That's not counting repairs, mind you. So for SEVENTY people, you generate less than 1 loompoints worth of gold per hour.

Average was calculated BEFORE the new valour system, so that means it might be like 2.25, but its still right around a x2 average Multi. Murder, if you're going to pull facts, use PROPER facts.

Not to mention that that amount is distributed amongst the whole player base. For 1 day of play, that's on average, 144,000 gold generated(24 block) not counting repairs. Thats 21 days of SOLID 24 hour play to make 3 mln gold, not counting repairs.  Or if we assume an average of 5 hours per day of play, at x2, that's 100 days of play to equal 3 mln.

Player skill affects this, but for the majority...

My numbers are a little off, but in the right ballpark.  Now, the thing is, you have the consider the entire market as a whole.  The time economy of a single player is not that important since it can all be bypassed by intelligent trading.  Your figure of how many months to grind 3 million gold is irrelevant since no one is grinding all of it.

That said, a secondary option to change a single point would be interesting, but the current weekly respec auction is in a good place.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Malaclypse on September 12, 2013, 09:58:15 pm
Everyone respecing to the build du jour would actually hurt everyone and take depth out of the game.

If I were to be able to afford a respec, I'd go 18/21 cavalry/all melee profs/crossbow hybrid or 15/24 of the same (to greater effect but with the loss of Long Maul/Mallet use). Would add a world of depth to my experience, at least, and I don't see how that would hurt anyone (besides in regards to them getting couched or otherwise killed by me, which happens sometimes on my current 18/24 build anyhow).
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Teeth on September 13, 2013, 01:21:12 am
Imagine if everyone was at a fixed level like 35 and you could freely respec and play whatever you wanted at all times, also without looms so you could freely use any weapon you wanted without being at a disadvantage.

No_bullshit_just_play
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Prpavi on September 13, 2013, 01:25:12 am
Imagine if everyone was at a fixed level like 35 and you could freely respec and play whatever you wanted at all times, also without looms so you could freely use any weapon you wanted without being at a disadvantage.

No_bullshit_just_play

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: TheAppleSauceMan on September 13, 2013, 01:25:50 am
Imagine if everyone was at a fixed level like 35 and you could freely respec and play whatever you wanted at all times, also without looms so you could freely use any weapon you wanted without being at a disadvantage.

No_bullshit_just_play

Sounds basically like Native with different items.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Prpavi on September 13, 2013, 01:30:31 am
Sounds basically like Native with different items.

Not really you still have the freedom of choosing your gear and builds but without being at a disadvantage due to some peoples overgrinding and strat farming.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: MURDERTRON on September 13, 2013, 01:33:40 am
Everyone would go horse archer with 6 PS... it would be terrible.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Swaggart on September 13, 2013, 01:34:43 am
Sounds basically like Native with different items.

Not if you get to make your own build like he said.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Teeth on September 13, 2013, 01:41:41 am
Sounds basically like Native with different items.
Sounds like you're not very appreciative of all the devs efforts if you think Native + leveling and looms = cRPG.

For me the attractive part of cRPG is freedom in choice of build and gear, apart from much better balance, much more enjoyable pubgame and some very considerable improvements to the combat system. Now I get, well I actually I don't but I have been told, that for some people looms and levels are an encouragement to keep playing, but at this point don't the limitations that leveling and looms offer encourage more people to not play than it encourages people to play? Sure, for me personally having 3 level 30+ characters + a stf and access to a decently sized armoury goes a long way into taking away these senseless limitations, but still I can imagine some people can't be bothered to play the only build they are able to play at a competitive level.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Heroin on September 13, 2013, 02:39:31 am
"Mini respecs" should be sold as a commodity in the equipment shop. They would each allow 1 stat point, 2 skill points, or ~100wpp to be changed. Cost should be 50-100k. This way you could make small tweaks to your build without having to pony up 3 mil for a respec auction, but wholesale class changes would still be prohibitively expensive.

This would actually completely appease me in my particular situation. I'd spend 200k for two of these to get my WPF back out of xbow, and I'd be completely satisfied with my build. The fact that it's going to cost me 3 million to make this minor tweak is my major gripe.

But honestly, I still think respecs should happen more often, for other people who's builds need bigger changes. It'd probably take MORE money out of the economy if they happened daily than it does now, AND it would make the game more palatable for people who've already invested 4000+ hours of their life to this mod, and don't want to grind another 100 days at 5 hours a day just to be able to afford to change their build. That type of investment of time makes people just want to say screw it, I'm gonna go work out and date girls instead.  8-)
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Jarold on September 13, 2013, 05:24:51 am
cRPG Beta, meaning everything is subject to change, get used to it.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Kafein on September 13, 2013, 10:10:49 am
Imagine if everyone was at a fixed level like 35 and you could freely respec and play whatever you wanted at all times, also without looms so you could freely use any weapon you wanted without being at a disadvantage.

No_bullshit_just_play

This is the game for you sir

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Fairness is bland. The reason I liked playing as a peasant back when I began playing cRPG was precisely that because I had no chance of defeating knights, my own goals were different. There are countless multiplayer games around with absolute fairness, like TF2 if you want a known example. What cRPG was at some point was very different and very fun indeed.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: mokuchin on September 13, 2013, 02:58:09 pm
I think 2.5m is a proper price. Over 3m is too high.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Phew on September 13, 2013, 03:11:40 pm
Imagine if everyone was at a fixed level like 35 and you could freely respec and play whatever you wanted at all times, also without looms so you could freely use any weapon you wanted without being at a disadvantage.

No_bullshit_just_play

The appeal of cRPG for most people isn't some sense of accomplishment from gaining looms/levels, its a sense of personalization. i.e. "I'm the only guy with x build+y gear". Using Final Boss' texture pack enhances this feeling. If everyone switched builds/gear every day with a couple mouse clicks, any attachment to one's character/equipment would disappear.

At least on the only server I play on (NA Siege), certain looms are rare enough that I can see it on the ground and be like "Oh, +3 Short Arming Sword; I better watch out for Konrax and his stabs", or "+3 practice shield? Crap, I foresee Frug beating me to death with some farming implement in short order".
To me, it's the same feeling as encountering some rare drop in a MMORPG, except the "boss" that dropped it is another player. Take that away, and cRPG becomes just another generic multiplayer deathmatch game.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: TheAppleSauceMan on September 13, 2013, 06:23:05 pm
Sounds like you're not very appreciative of all the devs efforts if you think Native + leveling and looms = cRPG.

For me the attractive part of cRPG is freedom in choice of build and gear, apart from much better balance, much more enjoyable pubgame and some very considerable improvements to the combat system. Now I get, well I actually I don't but I have been told, that for some people looms and levels are an encouragement to keep playing, but at this point don't the limitations that leveling and looms offer encourage more people to not play than it encourages people to play? Sure, for me personally having 3 level 30+ characters + a stf and access to a decently sized armoury goes a long way into taking away these senseless limitations, but still I can imagine some people can't be bothered to play the only build they are able to play at a competitive level.

That's quite an assumption to make. I simply say this because if everyone is on even grounds level-wise, and free to change class at any time, it's very similar to Native. Sure there's a bit more freedom as you can do some wonky things like a 13 ATH troll build, but that's not really my point. The point I was trying to make is that in Native you can freely change between classes (which are similar to builds in that they each have different stats). If everyone has equal access to these and can change at any point in time, well Native and c-RPG just became a lot more alike.

I do very much appreciate the devs work, but to be fair, the basic concept of c-RPG is exactly that. Native + leveling/looms = c-RPG. Though they have changed various combat mechanics and such recently. But the reason I originally tried this mod is because I loved the idea of Native with leveling and persistence, so I don't think there's anything wrong with that being the main difference between Native and c-RPG, especially considering how wonderfully they have implemented said idea.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Kafein on September 13, 2013, 06:26:48 pm
Strategus  and the way cRPG was in the beginning is IMO a pretty big hint the goal was to introduce elements that worked in SP into MP.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on September 14, 2013, 02:52:52 am
Maybe, just maybe, different people have or had different reasons why they came to like this mod so much.   :wink:

and sauceman, they didn't changed combat only recently.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Heroin on September 14, 2013, 07:09:49 pm
Native + leveling/looms = c-RPG.

This is what I was speaking of when I said cRPG has been riding the coat tails of 2 good ideas since it's inception. If I'm being honest, I'd have to say that I preferred most of the native mechanics to the things the cRPG staff has implemented since then. I also liked the way the weapons and armor worked back then better, and preferred the old XP system.

As I said to start; I feel that the original ideas they came up with for "Native + levelling/looms" was amazing. Most other changes have simply taken us further away from an otherwise awesome thing.


I think 2 million on the site is fair and does a proper job of removing gold from the economy

I have to disagree. I think 500k is fair, while still removing gold from the economy. If 500k is trivial, I'd like to see how many people are willing to just hook me up with 500k. Trivial is giving a bum your pocket change. If 500k is that pocket change, I'll be your bum.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: San on September 14, 2013, 07:48:34 pm
Yeah. I definitely don't want to pay 5 million like some people had already, but I feel it should be worth more than a +3 item.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: TheAppleSauceMan on September 14, 2013, 07:56:56 pm
Maybe, just maybe, different people have or had different reasons why they came to like this mod so much.   :wink:

and sauceman, they didn't changed combat only recently.

This is very true, but I was making a generalization! In my experience, most people came to this mod due to the idea of persistence/leveling. I know I did personally, most of, if not all of, my clan came for that reason as well. As well as all my RL friends that play/played.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Heroin on September 14, 2013, 08:06:08 pm
Yeah. I definitely don't want to pay 5 million like some people had already, but I feel it should be worth more than a +3 item.

Again, I have to disagree. That +3 item is being undervalued here. For those of us who've played for years, undervaluing time might be easy to do. But under the current XP system, that +3 item represents up to 492 hours of playtime for the most unlucky/unskilled amongst us.

Do you think it should take 492 hours of playtime to be able to afford a respec? That's 61.5 days of playing the game 8 hours a day. That's a full-time job, working 7 days a week for two months. That simply isn't in the realm of reasonable for something that's supposed to be a game/hobby/fun.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: San on September 15, 2013, 09:38:14 pm
I guess we agree to disagree, since I believe people who are willing to pay for training lessons usually have put in significant time in the game. 500k is good, but I think your estimation on the time required is quite pessimistic. With the extra tick at 6:30, valor , etc, I believe someone with light gear can make 500k in 2-4 gens, a small fraction of exp of a level 34-36. I wonder how much the devs think it should cost..
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Heroin on September 15, 2013, 10:09:10 pm
I guess we agree to disagree, since I believe people who are willing to pay for training lessons usually have put in significant time in the game. 500k is good, but I think your estimation on the time required is quite pessimistic. With the extra tick at 6:30, valor , etc, I believe someone with light gear can make 500k in 2-4 gens, a small fraction of exp of a level 34-36. I wonder how much the devs think it should cost..

2-4 gens is a long time of playing in light gear to make that 500k. Imagine, then, trying to make 3 million instead. Based on your numbers, it would take 12-24 gens to make the current cost of a respec, if we don't consider selling the loompoints from retiring(which we shouldn't, if you're only using the character you're trying to respec to make that gold).

500k = 2-4 gens, on average equals 246 hours(x2 multi average)
3 mil = 12-24 gens, on average equals 1476 hours(x2 multi average)

So with prices as they are currently, you'd basically have to play 6 hours a day, 5 days a week for a year to be able to afford to respec without selling looms. Reasonable? I think not.

So yeah, if you still think that's reasonable, I agree to disagree with you.


EDIT: Also, including valor is assuming the random person we're talking about is good. That's an unfair assumption to apply to the general population. If everyone were you, who is obviously excellent, it might be an easier pill to swallow. Not everyone can rock a x5 all day long, and that makes a big difference in how much you make. And the 6:30 tick only makes up for all the rounds that end at 4:02, where you don't get the gold tick for the other full minute you played.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Falka on September 15, 2013, 11:15:14 pm
I believe someone with light gear can make 500k in 2-4 gens,
2-4 gens is a long time of playing in light gear to make that 500k.

Uh, with light gear you can get much more than 500 k in 4 gens. Actually in 1 gen without any upkeep you can earn 436 750 gold (8 735 ticks x 50 gold for each tick - at gen 1, players with higher gens lvl up faster, needs a bit less ticks, so they can get a bit less gold). Fallen wayyne with his normal gear (tribal warrior outfit, leather gloves and goadeng) probably can earn more than 350 k gold in one generation. Add loompoints for each gen and you can get training lessons in 4 gens. Is that so much? Especially when you think about strat battles with huge amount of xp which you can earn there - even 1,3-1,5mln xp for 1 battle, 2 hours of playing...
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: BlueKnight on September 15, 2013, 11:32:32 pm
Fallen wayyne with his normal gear (tribal warrior outfit, leather gloves and goadeng lol) probably can earn more than 350 k gold in one generation.
Nah, imho he may get around +200k max.

When I was playing as a naked courserwoman with a heavy glance I made 100k in 1 gen. I know that my items were more expensive than wayyyne's but there were only 2 items in my eq that were worth something. Wayyne has more items but less expensive and though I guess he may get more gold but 350k is just too much.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Turkhammer on September 15, 2013, 11:43:52 pm
What are daily training lessons?
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Falka on September 16, 2013, 12:08:50 am
What are daily training lessons?

Free respec - without loosing half of xp. You can buy it here: http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=marketplaceauction (not available currently, Le... sth from Dhirim sells them once a week).
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Kafein on September 16, 2013, 12:28:37 am
Playing with nothing but a deli cap and a 1h, I make around 15k per usual evening play session, we're looking at a couple of hours of playtime. If you really want it, money does come by quite fast.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Heroin on September 16, 2013, 02:02:15 am
Playing with nothing but a deli cap and a 1h, I make around 15k per usual evening play session, we're looking at a couple of hours of playtime. If you really want it, money does come by quite fast.

I recorded it the other day. Using a rondel dagger and the cheapest of armors(leather gloves, leather boots, khergit lady hat, steppe armor), I made 10k in 2 hours of play.

That means I'd have to play for 600 hours, basically naked, using a rondel dagger or less in order to make 3 million without selling loom points. Yes, that's too much. That's more play time than a full time job for 4 months.(45 hours a week)
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Dan lol on September 16, 2013, 02:09:01 am
you're looking to respec for a few wp points that you had put into crossbow? shut up
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Heroin on September 16, 2013, 02:27:47 am
you're looking to respec for a few wp points that you had put into crossbow? shut up

The significance of what difference half of my WP being put into something I can't use isn't really the primary topic here. But I do see your point. lol

What I'm really after is a minor tweak to my character, rather than needing a complete respec. I just want to move 150 wpf.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Bronto on September 16, 2013, 02:32:31 am
The significance of what difference half of my WP being put into something I can't use isn't really the primary topic here. But I do see your point. lol

What I'm really after is a minor tweak to my character, rather than needing a complete respec. I just want to move 150 wpf.

Why don't you just use langes messer or military sickle and keep your build?
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Heroin on September 16, 2013, 02:59:38 am
Why don't you just use langes messer or military sickle and keep your build?

Because I have 3 masterworked 2 handers that aren't those 1 handers with a secondary mode. And I prefer to play melee anyhow.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on September 16, 2013, 03:45:22 pm
I used the "Retire" option to reorganise.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Fartface on September 16, 2013, 06:52:23 pm
Because I have 3 masterworked 2 handers that aren't those 1 handers with a secondary mode. And I prefer to play melee anyhow.
Bite the bullet and start trading , That 2.6m should buy you enough 2h/1h hybrid weapons :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on September 16, 2013, 06:54:29 pm
It sucks to have your build made invalid, but items are a very liquid asset. A high level character can either sacrifice long hours spent and respec to a lower level or retire to change build. Items can be swapped at near-equal value for other items in a matter of hours if you are in a rush to change things.

Your class isn't the first to be changed and made "invalid" by item and stat changes. It probably won't be the last. Many players would rather change than stop playing CRPG altogether. Some people do leave the game over changes like this. Hope you aren't one of them.

Even keeping your current items, you could alternate between pure 2H for rounds or crossbow-focused with a 2H backup weapon (gasp, unloomed!). I'm not really picky about builds or items so I know you feel differently about the subject, but at least consider alternatives to waiting on the training lessons. You don't have to quit playing because you can't use a crossbow and 2H sword at the same time.
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Phew on September 16, 2013, 07:08:01 pm
It sucks to have your build made invalid, but items are a very liquid asset. A high level character can either sacrifice long hours spent and respec to a lower level or retire to change build. Items can be swapped at near-equal value for other items in a matter of hours if you are in a rush to change things.

Your class isn't the first to be changed and made "invalid" by item and stat changes. It probably won't be the last. Many players would rather change than stop playing CRPG altogether. Some people do leave the game over changes like this. Hope you aren't one of them.

Even keeping your current items, you could alternate between pure 2H for rounds or crossbow-focused with a 2H backup weapon (gasp, unloomed!). I'm not really picky about builds or items so I know you feel differently about the subject, but at least consider alternatives to waiting on the training lessons. You don't have to quit playing because you can't use a crossbow and 2H sword at the same time.

In your situation, I'd trade to own the following weapons:
+3 Hunting Crossbow
+3 Heavy Crossbow
+3 Bolts
+3 Mace, Langes Messer, Sickle, or Fighting Axe (I'd go axe, which is a good complement to a 2h sword on rounds you choose not to bring an x-bow)
+3 2-slot 2h sword of your choosing

Seems fun and versatile to me, as opposed to paying 3 mil for lessons just so you can get 1% faster swing speed on your 2h weapons.


Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on September 16, 2013, 07:25:13 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Training lessons and broken promises
Post by: Heroin on September 17, 2013, 02:33:37 am
Some people do leave the game over changes like this. Hope you aren't one of them.

This is sort of my point. Why make respecs so incredibly difficult to buy that people feel helpless in trying to fix their build, and eventually quit? It shouldn't be free, I agree. But it also shouldn't be so prohibitively expensive that people consider throwing away five hundred hours of playtime to avoid having to pay the cost of it.

I think you should easily be able to make what it costs to respec in the timespan of a single generation between selling a loom point and the gold you made for that gen. Anything over that price, in my opinion, is unreasonable of the devs. I also think it's unreasonable to come up with a ton of options for people who need a respec to "adapt" and piss on their invested time, instead of just appealing to the devs to implement a system that takes them very little time, and makes things more convenient and enjoyable for everyone.

P.S. 500 hours of playtime is what you throw away if you respec at 1/2 xp cost from level 36. And this is with the unrealistic assumption that you had a 5x all the way from 35 to 36. At 1x, it's like 2600 hours.