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Strategus => Diplomacy => Topic started by: Chestaclese on September 01, 2013, 08:51:38 pm

Title: Attacked again is Raven's neutral area?
Post by: Chestaclese on September 01, 2013, 08:51:38 pm
I can understand once but again? Could I please get some assistance from my Raven friends :(.
Title: Re: Attacked again is Raven's neutral area?
Post by: Haboe on September 01, 2013, 08:58:03 pm
Why would you understand the first time?  :lol:
Title: Re: Attacked again is Raven's neutral area?
Post by: Relit on September 01, 2013, 09:20:04 pm
We are moving armies to the effected area to enforce our wishes. All merchants in our territory are asked to stay away from the Tash Kulun/Malayurg Castle area until further notice, any currently there must leave immediately.

I fielded quite a few questions by Aderyn about this very thing yesterday and now this attack magically appears even deeper inside Raven territory.
Title: Re: Attacked again is Raven's neutral area?
Post by: HungryNBroke on September 01, 2013, 09:33:37 pm
This seems to be quite a blatant disregard of our wishes.
Since we have already been through this at least twice with Hospitaller, they should know how this will end if they abuse our hospitality .
Title: Re: Attacked again is Raven's neutral area?
Post by: Haboe on September 01, 2013, 09:39:59 pm
Fighting in a factions territory after explicit warnings not to... Would have caused another WW in EU if it happened this many times  :lol:
Title: Re: Attacked again is Raven's neutral area?
Post by: Aztek on September 02, 2013, 02:10:38 pm
I try and stay out of Diplomacy, as I don't want to get involved like I did in the past, I play more casual now with little regard for strat (waiting on Rome 2) but can assure you Hospitaller means no disrespect, Its just hard for them when FCC keeps getting reinforcements from your direction. I understand letting everyone use your lands, as you let Hospitaller for a time being, their issue is you are at our borders making it an easy staging ground for FCC.

FCC could make an army, add trading goods to head your way for a swap, then use that army to reinforce in our lands claiming they were just their to trade and the secondary action was not planned.

Regardless, You did make it clear and gave them fair warning. It just puts them in a very awkward position. I would have thought your best stance would have been to deny all military presence what so ever, meaning heading towards to attack a near by faction, reinforcing staging area or any army meant in a hostile manner. I understand the need for FCC traders to come and openly trade in your area and respect you lads for your neutrality, but allowing armies that then head into your neighbors land to attack or reinforce should be looked at the same way as armies coming in to your lands to attack those said armies, either should be denied.
Title: Re: Attacked again is Raven's neutral area?
Post by: Keshian on September 02, 2013, 02:17:44 pm
I try and stay out of Diplomacy, as I don't want to get involved like I did in the past, I play more casual now with little regard for strat (waiting on Rome 2) but can assure you Hospitaller means no disrespect, Its just hard for them when FCC keeps getting reinforcements from your direction.


? Keeps getting?  Im the only "reinforcement" that passed through ravens lands.  Its roughly the same run from sungetche castle - are you going to start attacking us outside sungetche castle as well just because you failed to catch dildos coming from there,  We have to march through some neutral lands to get to ichamur, a city we own.  You have plenty of armies blockading it and its still a 3-4 hour run from either area because of the hills in the south and the distance in the north.  No reason to invade neutral lands because we get 1-2 guys through your blockade and one of the areas they passed through on our journey across the map happened to be neutral ground - 80% of the map at war with us making travel dangerous and you break their border restrictions because one faction doesn't automatically attack us when we are not violating their border restrictions?


To be fair - they have no obligation to atatck people for you.  The people you should be upset with are occitan and frisians.  By not attacking us aggressively (we have actually gained 20K troops and millions of gold in their 3 months of being "at war" with us, its allowed us to easily reinforce ichamur.  By taking 3 months to basically take the 4-5 villages we hadn't gotten around to selling yet they put almost no real pressure on us.  You as a smaller faction have done more than they have with twice your active membership.  I'm sure they will bitch that its too hard or that fcc "cheats" or some other such nonsense, but it comes down laziness and cowardice - occitan still has 7-10K troops in most of their castles and cities like they are about to be attacked (not sure who when they are allied with most of the map).
Title: Re: Attacked again is Raven's neutral area?
Post by: Relit on September 02, 2013, 05:08:52 pm
I try and stay out of Diplomacy, as I don't want to get involved like I did in the past, I play more casual now with little regard for strat (waiting on Rome 2) but can assure you Hospitaller means no disrespect, Its just hard for them when FCC keeps getting reinforcements from your direction. I understand letting everyone use your lands, as you let Hospitaller for a time being, their issue is you are at our borders making it an easy staging ground for FCC.

FCC could make an army, add trading goods to head your way for a swap, then use that army to reinforce in our lands claiming they were just their to trade and the secondary action was not planned.

Regardless, You did make it clear and gave them fair warning. It just puts them in a very awkward position. I would have thought your best stance would have been to deny all military presence what so ever, meaning heading towards to attack a near by faction, reinforcing staging area or any army meant in a hostile manner. I understand the need for FCC traders to come and openly trade in your area and respect you lads for your neutrality, but allowing armies that then head into your neighbors land to attack or reinforce should be looked at the same way as armies coming in to your lands to attack those said armies, either should be denied.

This policy of "no fighting in our territory" has been in place for a long time and we have only rarely had issues with it.

Yes, FCC can use our territory to trade in while at the same time maneuver armies into their Ichamur area for reinforcement. Just as Hospitaller could come 'trading' at Nova Amere and then hit FCC's holdings around there. It works both ways. Occitan has walked through our territory without even the pretense of trading before and we allow it under the idea that "All neutral traffic is considered merchants".

Turboflex and I are considering changes to our current policy but for now it remains in effect. What really bothers us about this entire thing, is that Hospitaller knew and was warned repeatedly not to do this and here we are.
Title: Re: Attacked again is Raven's neutral area?
Post by: Chestaclese on September 02, 2013, 05:58:01 pm
And here we fucking are nerds!
Title: Re: Attacked again is Raven's neutral area?
Post by: Kaelaen on September 02, 2013, 06:24:21 pm
I have to say I do admire Hospitallers more than a little right now.  They are attacking things and doesn't afraid of anything.  That is exactly the kind of can-do attitude that gives us all more strat exp.  Thank you Hospitallers, for not taking things too seriously.

I'd look for a funny image to post in your honor but I am doing cardio on my phone making it really awkward to type.  I will just edit this when I get home.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Attacked again is Raven's neutral area?
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on September 02, 2013, 06:43:31 pm
Quote
I'd look for a funny image to post in your honor but I am doing cardio on my phone...

Lol I'm imagining you just typing really fast on your phone, thumbs flying and sweat pouring.

PHONE CARDIO! FOR THUMB GAINS!
Title: Re: Attacked again is Raven's neutral area?
Post by: Kaelaen on September 02, 2013, 07:01:20 pm
PHONE CARDIO! FOR THUMB GAINS!

Have to keep the thumb strong, for maximum space bar jumping.
Title: Re: Attacked again is Raven's neutral area?
Post by: Hobb on September 02, 2013, 09:12:35 pm
just because you failed to catch dildos coming from there
Title: Re: Attacked again is Raven's neutral area?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 03, 2013, 04:31:37 pm
Seems contradictory to let FCC stage armies to march into our lands in Raven territory, and then allow them to retreat back into your lands after provoking us. 
Title: Re: Attacked again is Raven's neutral area?
Post by: Aderyn on September 03, 2013, 04:46:44 pm
Seems contradictory to let FCC stage armies to march into our lands in Raven territory, and then allow them to retreat back into your lands after provoking us. 

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Attacked again is Raven's neutral area?
Post by: Artyem on September 03, 2013, 05:53:06 pm
Seems contradictory to let FCC stage armies to march into our lands in Raven territory, and then allow them to retreat back into your lands after provoking us.

Literally nothing was preventing you from doing the very same thing, and almost the very same exact thing has been done from Raven territory by the LCO alliance.  There's nothing contradicting about it, if FCC had attacked you in neutral territory we would be giving them the same treatment.

Initially it was just LL, but despite the huge stink that was made over it you guys thought you could get away with it too.  Next time read the very clear and even pictorial statements that quite definitely read:

In case it has not been made clear. Raven and Dracul territories are NEUTRAL territory. Any person traveling inside our territory is under our protection for trade. By attacking inside our territory your trade and passage access will be revoked.

(click to show/hide)

It does not matter. Raven and Dracul regard all parties who have trade access or passage access as traders in our lands and are therefor under our protection. This rule applies to all who have access to our lands (TKoV, Frisia, FCC, Hospitaller, Occitan, SS/FUPA, Chaos, FPF and MB). If any one of those listed factions is attacked in our territory, we will reinforce the trader and revoke the offending parties access.

Title: Re: Attacked again is Raven's neutral area?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 03, 2013, 05:56:36 pm
Quote
Any person traveling inside our territory is under our protection for trade. By attacking inside our territory your trade and passage access will be revoked.

So what about armies that march through Raven lands, to deal hostilities in our lands?  Are those cleared for "trade" in Raven lands?  What happens when these non-trade armies retreat back to your lands after provoking our hostilities by marching into our lands?  Seems like harboring of our enemies to me.  They stage their attacks from Raven lands, poke our lands, and then retreat back to the safety of your lands.

Somehow I don't think that's what Relit meant with his statements about allowing traders neutrality in their lands.

If you're going to allow hostile armies to march through Raven lands, into our lands, you can't expect us to chase them and then give up pursuit once they hit the imaginary line in the sand that Raven has carved.  It's contradictory at best, and harboring our enemies at worst.

If they aren't a trading army, they shouldn't be expecting Raven to protect them.  Once they send an army through your lands and into our lands, they should no longer be part of your free trade passage statement, they're clearly a hostile army.
Title: Re: Attacked again is Raven's neutral area?
Post by: Relit on September 03, 2013, 06:02:00 pm
So what about armies that march through Raven lands, to deal hostilities in our lands?  Are those cleared for "trade" in Raven lands?  What happens when these non-trade armies retreat back to your lands after provoking our hostilities by marching into our lands?  Seems like harboring of our enemies to me.  They stage their attacks from Raven lands, poke our lands, and then retreat back to the safety of your lands. 

Somehow I don't think that's what Relit meant with his statements about allowing traders neutrality in their lands. 

If you're going to allow hostile armies to march through Raven lands, into our lands, you can't expect us to chase them and then give up pursuit once they hit the imaginary line in the sand that Raven has carved.  It's contradictory at best, and harboring our enemies at worst. 

If they aren't a trading army, they shouldn't be expecting Raven to protect them.  Once they send an army through your lands and into our lands, they should no longer be part of your free trade passage statement, they're clearly a hostile army.

Artyem nailed it on the head, you need to reread what he posted. We regard ALL ARMIES REGARDLESS OF WHAT THEY ACTUALLY ARE AS TRADERS WHEN INSIDE OUR LANDS IF THEY HAVE PERMISSION TO BE THERE. It does not get anymore clear than that.

Our land. Our rules. Even if Hospitaller wanted to chase said armies into our territory now, its a moot point because your access to our lands is revoked and if we see any Hospitaller armies moving in it will be considered a hostile act against us.

You seem to be the only person vocally with a problem here. Occitan has used this same strategy against FCC. The system works just fine. It revolves around the simple of idea of 'respect'. Respect our borders or do not come around our lands.
Title: Re: Attacked again is Raven's neutral area?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 03, 2013, 06:03:13 pm
So you allow people to pick fights and then run back to Raven territory for protection.  Good to know.

Your stance of neutrality, is in fact not neutral at all in these circumstances.
Title: Re: Attacked again is Raven's neutral area?
Post by: Relit on September 03, 2013, 06:06:46 pm
So you allow people to pick fights and then run back to Raven territory for protection.  Good to know.

Your stance of neutrality, is in fact not neutral at all in these circumstances.

You need to speak with your leadership, as Turboflex has already addressed this with Peppovitch. Your line of reasoning is flawed, you seem to be under the assumption that you can dictate to us how we can run our lands. You are wrong.
Title: Re: Attacked again is Raven's neutral area?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 03, 2013, 06:07:41 pm
I'm not trying to dictate how Raven runs their lands.  I'm pointing out that you are allowing hostile armies to march through your lands into ours, and then protecting them when they retreat back to your lands from our armies.
Title: Re: Attacked again is Raven's neutral area?
Post by: Relit on September 03, 2013, 06:09:47 pm
I'm not trying to dictate how Raven runs their lands.  I'm pointing out that you are allowing hostile armies to march through your lands into ours, and then protecting them when they retreat back to your lands from our armies.

Hostile to you. Merchants to us. There are many different perspectives here. Respect our 'imaginary line in the sand' and there wont be a issue.
Title: Re: Attacked again is Raven's neutral area?
Post by: BaleOhay on September 03, 2013, 07:27:57 pm
The best part is show me where we have been hostile to anyone with the three armies that went thru.we did not attack or do anything besides walk to.raven trade then wall to our city... lets be honest your issue is us preventing you from easily taking that city from us.
Title: Re: Attacked again is Raven's neutral area?
Post by: Turboflex on September 03, 2013, 07:41:31 pm
This is getting silly, can you guys chill out and stop this spergfest? Peppovitch knows what's up.
Title: Re: Attacked again is Raven's neutral area?
Post by: Aderyn on September 03, 2013, 11:57:48 pm
huseby... i told you whats up, why are you still harrassing them over this :|
Title: Re: Attacked again is Raven's neutral area?
Post by: Keshian on September 04, 2013, 12:06:29 am
So you allow people to pick fights and then run back to Raven territory for protection.  Good to know.

Your stance of neutrality, is in fact not neutral at all in these circumstances.

One correction - chesty never actually entered hospitaller lands - the only one who entered was me from ravens lands and I went straight to ichamur.  No one made aggression and then "retreated" into their lands.  he took a  bunch of my gear to get me down to 0 crates after he had already sold all his goods in and then started heading back to our lands without ever leaving ravens territory.
Title: Re: Attacked again is Raven's neutral area?
Post by: Chyv on September 04, 2013, 11:18:30 pm
One correction - chesty never actually entered hospitaller lands - the only one who entered was me from ravens lands and I went straight to ichamur.  No one made aggression and then "retreated" into their lands.  he took a  bunch of my gear to get me down to 0 crates after he had already sold all his goods in and then started heading back to our lands without ever leaving ravens territory.

Well thats clearly not true considering when we attacked Chesty he was west of all Raven fiefs, meaning that either he was coming from the the steppes or heading to the steppes.
Title: Re: Attacked again is Raven's neutral area?
Post by: Relit on September 04, 2013, 11:21:39 pm
Well thats clearly not true considering when we attacked Chesty he was west of all Raven fiefs, meaning that either he was coming from the the steppes or heading to the steppes.

I can confirm via 2 different Raven members reports that Chesty never left our lands. Was he going to? I have no idea.
Title: Re: Attacked again is Raven's neutral area?
Post by: Chyv on September 04, 2013, 11:23:33 pm
I can confirm via 2 different Raven members reports that Chesty never left our lands. Was he going to? I have no idea.
I agree he never left as we discuseed, it was the fact that he was west of all your fiefs and the only reason to be there was to be leaving your lands and to head to the steppes. Not trying to justify attacking in your lands which we should not have done, just calling out some of the BS being spewed.
Title: Re: Attacked again is Raven's neutral area?
Post by: Relit on September 04, 2013, 11:35:37 pm
I agree he never left as we discuseed, it was the fact that he was west of all your fiefs and the only reason to be there was to be leaving your lands and to head to the steppes. Not trying to justify attacking in your lands which we should not have done, just calling out some of the BS being spewed.

I am also not trying to step on any toes here, just tossing out the information that I have so everybody can come to their own conclusions.
Title: Re: Attacked again is Raven's neutral area?
Post by: Matey on September 05, 2013, 02:08:36 am
I agree he never left as we discuseed, it was the fact that he was west of all your fiefs and the only reason to be there was to be leaving your lands and to head to the steppes. Not trying to justify attacking in your lands which we should not have done, just calling out some of the BS being spewed.

my understanding is that he went to take excess gear from Kesh who did indeed make a run to Ichamur. Anywho, the smart play woulda been to just attack Kesh once he was out of Raven lands.
Title: Re: Attacked again is Raven's neutral area?
Post by: Chestaclese on September 05, 2013, 02:51:44 am
The smart is always to not fuck with Chestaclese.