cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: mrrdhardy on August 17, 2013, 03:51:39 pm

Title: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: mrrdhardy on August 17, 2013, 03:51:39 pm
Here we go another range QQ thread but i want to know how people feel afew month after the range buff patch here is my opinion. My opinion is the old patch what better. Makeing none loomed range just as good as loomed one makes no sense to me, you put all that work into leveling and looming your bow and someone who is new can still be just as good. CRPG is about progressing by putting time in it and i find it more frustrating to play on server when you know that alot of the range havent put time into progressing there characters and let be honest completely own. i find it to be at it worst when servers are dead in morning's or late at night, this makes playing melee impossible when the server is amost 50% range. so over all my opinion is nerf low level range again the last patch was perfect it make playing archer hard and have to earn the right to play as one which make the number of archers perfect and skilled. Im not here to sound like a dick but i feel CRPG should be a melee dominated game with range as a support class not 30-50% range, im sorry you can say i am QQ but it is starting to get stupid now. anyway this is my opinion and i hope admins will read are views on the matter and come up with something to keep everyone happy.
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: Umbra on August 17, 2013, 03:54:26 pm
You might want to seperate the sentences a bit, it is hard to read it this way imo. I dont have an opinion on the subject just wanted to tell you this without sounding like a dick
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: Adamar on August 17, 2013, 04:06:59 pm
The weight nerf was the opposite of perfect, and needs to be reverted as soon as an alternative is found.
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: Tzar on August 17, 2013, 04:48:44 pm
I think archery its fine atm, but yes... Eu1 is bleeding dry because people flee to eu2 from all the range menace...  :lol: Dunno if reverting the changes to the none loomed bows would sort it out.
 
Quote from: Adamar on August 17, 2013, 04:06:59 pm
The weight nerf was the opposite of perfect, and needs to be reverted as soon as an alternative is found.

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Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: Grumbs on August 17, 2013, 04:53:29 pm
I don't really mind looms not giving big bonuses, but I'd likely give them a point of damage more or something at least

The main progression in the game should come from your own personal development as a player though. The skill floor and ceiling could be made higher to facilitate that. Joe newbie should not be randomly headshotting top players for 1 hit or 2 hit kills unless they made some really good shot. As it is now its like rock,paper,scissors with one side playing a low skill FPS game with fps mechanics from the 90's and another playing a separate game. I'd expect way more depth in the shooting mechanics to allow for the one sidedness of this style of pvp

What do we have to work with for ranged skill?

Planning positioning and kiting with movement speed.
Speed of the projectile landing/arc of the shot (how much to judge player movements and distance to target)
Time taken to draw a shot
Damage per shot
Amount of ammo (spamming shots all round and missing and still being able to kite)
Usefulness of helmets/randomness of kills
Usefulness of shields (xbows shooting straight through them, their weight)
How easy it is to multi class/jack of all trade chars

If the devs really wanted to shake things up they could do so without nerfing ranged for the good players. They could increase the skill ceiling by tweaking things like projectile arc or other stuff mentioned, while at the same time increasing the skill floor so joe newbie has to learn the game like everyone else.

The point & click of xbows in particular is just a joke to me when its put alongside all the other things this game has to offer. You see these guys hiding behind trees reloading, then they pop out and fire into a crowd for 1 or 2 hit kills and pop back again. Low risk high reward. It just looks so passive and brainless and yet rewarding for hardly any input from the player.
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: Mala on August 17, 2013, 06:18:38 pm
they all have to die.
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: Smoothrich on August 17, 2013, 06:21:10 pm
I can't fucking stand throwers, they are always overpowered for what they're supposed to do (lol let me kite every  other class while 1 shotting anything that moves with massive ammo stacks, accuracy, damage, speed) . Every other class is fine.
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: Adamar on August 17, 2013, 06:30:06 pm
Quote from: Tzar on August 17, 2013, 04:48:44 pm
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Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: Hirlok on August 17, 2013, 06:57:30 pm
well yes, my MW bodkins are fecking useless compared to normal ones and I need several arrows for decent players with PD9 and MW longbow/mw bodkins. We desperately need another ranged nerf.

Make low level archery completely useless again, and at least MW arrows of any kind should do 2 damage LESS than normal ones and weight 20 pounds, they are just 10 pounds now...





P.S.: may the fish nourish you well, Troll.
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: Rumblood on August 17, 2013, 10:11:57 pm
Quote from: Hirlok on August 17, 2013, 06:57:30 pm
well yes, my MW bodkins are fecking useless compared to normal ones and I need several arrows for decent players with PD9 and MW longbow/mw bodkins. We desperately need another ranged nerf.

Make low level archery completely useless again, and at least MW arrows of any kind should do 2 damage LESS than normal ones and weight 20 pounds, they are just 10 pounds now...

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Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: mrrdhardy on August 18, 2013, 03:25:50 am
thank you everyone for you opinions been nice to read them, i think some of you have made some good points.
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: Malaclypse on August 18, 2013, 10:30:06 am
My opinion is that they can launch projectiles from a distance, some of which hit targets and thus deal damage.
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: Nightmare798 on August 18, 2013, 11:55:35 am
nerf
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: rufio on August 18, 2013, 12:05:57 pm
remove the pve ranged stagger, and im fine with ranged.
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: Ronin on August 18, 2013, 12:34:23 pm
The game would be lame and boring without archers.
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: Grumbs on August 18, 2013, 01:15:08 pm
There is a logical fallacy that people continue to repeat. Complaining about ranged does not mean people think they should not exist at all. I agree archers and xbows have their place in the game, but their implementation is sorely lacking, and the dev team mostly just got landed this awesome game in their lap and don't know what to do with it
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: Rumblood on August 18, 2013, 08:18:43 pm
Quote from: rufio on August 18, 2013, 12:05:57 pm
remove the pve ranged stagger, and im fine with ranged.

This would eliminate the purpose behind having a low damage archer. When I'm not shooting ponies, xbows, other archers, and throwers, I'm spending my time pulling a mob of 5 infantry chasing 1 of my poor guys down off of him or stunning a shielder from the side so my 2 handers can take him down. Without the stun that would never work. I may as well go full damage and not even bother with any of the lower tier bows at all.
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on August 19, 2013, 08:21:21 pm
I think arrows should interrupt a swing (like any hit will do), but they shouldn't stagger you.
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: Hirlok on August 19, 2013, 08:35:49 pm
Quote from: CrazyCracka420 on August 19, 2013, 08:21:21 pm
I think arrows should interrupt a swing (like any hit will do), but they shouldn't stagger you.

try to get shot IRL and keep going as if nothing happened. The amount of non-realism in this game is quite sufficient, I'd say, let us keep the last few morsels of reality in it. 
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on August 19, 2013, 08:44:58 pm
Quote from: Hirlok on August 19, 2013, 08:35:49 pm
try to get shot IRL and keep going as if nothing happened. The amount of non-realism in this game is quite sufficient, I'd say, let us keep the last few morsels of reality in it.

I'm not going to disagree, but if that's the case, than almost every weapon in the game should stagger you when you are hit.  Certainly getting hit with a heavy axe is going to physically stagger you more than being hit with an arrow...

Also notice I didn't say "you keep going as if nothing happened", I said that it should still interrupt your attack/block (as getting hit with any weapon will do).   
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: Templar_Steevee on August 20, 2013, 08:32:06 am
At least devs didn't give back jump shots, that was most unrealistic thing in archery. I hope it won`t come back. Archery is better without it :)
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: Tzar on August 20, 2013, 04:04:29 pm
Quote from: Templar_Steevee on August 20, 2013, 08:32:06 am
At least devs didn't give back jump shots, that was most unrealistic thing in archery. I hope it won`t come back. Archery is better without it :)

Good boy.. good boy
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: Chosen1 on August 20, 2013, 06:33:59 pm
Ranged isn't really overpowered, but sometimes I feel like there are just way too damn many of them, especially when they are mostly on one team.  I'm sure it's been suggested before, but I think there should be some sort of class balancer.
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on August 20, 2013, 06:52:10 pm
Chosen class balance (or just a revamp/fix of banner balance) has been suggested literally 1000s of times, and I'd wager a dozen or more threads have been created about it.  This going back at least 2 years.  Nothing's been done about it however.
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: Paul on August 21, 2013, 12:17:35 pm
I don't think chadz wants a class-based balance. At least I remember something like this when it was discussed a long time ago. That is a major gameplay decision chadz or cmp would have to make. Even if they'd approve it there would be the problem how to integrate it into the current score and banner balance system. Would it get priority above the others?

Anyway, whenever someone feels the need to make statements like "This or that was suggested x years ago and it's still not implemented. Outrageous." should consider that it wasn't because we don't want to or simply are not able to.
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: rufio on August 21, 2013, 01:28:28 pm
Quote from: Rumblood on August 18, 2013, 08:18:43 pm
This would eliminate the purpose behind having a low damage archer. When I'm not shooting ponies, xbows, other archers, and throwers, I'm spending my time pulling a mob of 5 infantry chasing 1 of my poor guys down off of him or stunning a shielder from the side so my 2 handers can take him down. Without the stun that would never work. I may as well go full damage and not even bother with any of the lower tier bows at all.

there is a difference between stagger and stun... the stagger is just silly long, also your argument is flawed since you could just replace archer with 1 hander and say , they should have a stagger since otherwise a low damage 1 hander would be useless...
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on August 21, 2013, 03:57:39 pm
Paul banner balance has been a pretty big issue since it was implemented.  I'm not going to list all the pro's and con's here, but it allows for factions to "pub stomp"
(click to show/hide)
  It's a big reason why people complained about archers or horse archers/xbows (because there would only be 5 horse xbows in game, and they all had the same banner, so they were all on the same team).  Which I believe the banner balance system has influenced a lot of the nerfs that have happened over the years.  I don't care if it's class balance that's implemented, but it shouldn't be solely based on banner balance (or mainly based).  The balance system has been borked since it was implemented, it's been discussed ad nauseum, and I really don't want to drum up all the arguments this early in the morning (for no real reason anyways, as you say it wasn't changed for a reason). 

IMO the balance system should be weighted (from top to bottom) something like this (with banner balance being the ultimate goal, but not at the expense of these variables):

character level
class/equipment equipped
K:D of last 5 or 10 maps

And if it can make fair teams with those variables and still allow people of the same banner to play on the same team, great.  But I don't think those variables should be put aside just so people with the same banner can play on the same team.  Relatively fair teams should be more important in public servers.
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: Lord_Bernie_of_Voodoo on August 21, 2013, 07:25:25 pm
Crossbows have always pissed me off, causing me to go into extreme nerd-rage. I mainly hate them because simply how easy they are to get kills. The damage combined with the accuracy results in a class that takes very little effort. Probably the easiest class to get a good KD with, IMO.

I've always been content with throwing until recently when this new NA1 jarid trend became a thing. Holy fuck, are these things awful to have against you. Ridiculous missile speed with hilariously high pierce damage. However, the real killer is that godawful noise it makes when throwers are tossing those evil pointy sticks at you and you're void of a shield.
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: Ellie on August 24, 2013, 06:16:24 am
Ban all ranged.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: Brrrak on August 24, 2013, 07:21:28 pm
Quote from: Ellie on August 24, 2013, 06:16:24 am
Ban all ranged.

(click to show/hide)

Throwers don't count.

---

The problem, as mentioned before, seems to be that -- at least some of the time -- you get a high confluence of archers on one team, while the other can have a drought of them.  This is especially pronounced when the population is low, which leads to some people saying (and get this, it's good) that archery is overpowered.  The more archers you get on one team, without being checked by the other team's archers, the more probability these archers have of getting kills, simply from saturation.  While it would be nice if teams could be balanced to the point where each team has the same, general, distribution of archers (by level and gear, leaving only skill the deciding factor), as Paul said: it's a big change, it doesn't seem like something cmp or chadz want, and who knows what anger the Warband gods will unleash if we dare touch balance any more.

Really, I'd just like to see a decent 0-skill shield that's useless -- or nearly so -- against melee strikes, but can block ranged relatively well, if you point it in the right direction.  Should be heavy, to balance out the sheer effectiveness of such an implement, and make you turtle-slow, but it would give more legitimacy to the statement of 'IF you are mad, THEN get a shield.' 
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: Ronin on August 25, 2013, 01:41:46 pm
Quote from: Brrrak on August 24, 2013, 07:21:28 pm
Throwers don't count.

---
Really, I'd just like to see a decent 0-skill shield that's useless -- or nearly so -- against melee strikes, but can block ranged relatively well, if you point it in the right direction.  Should be heavy, to balance out the sheer effectiveness of such an implement, and make you turtle-slow, but it would give more legitimacy to the statement of 'IF you are mad, THEN get a shield.'

1 skill point to shield is more than enough for this.
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: Templar_Steevee on August 25, 2013, 07:35:42 pm
Crappy shield + low shield skill and you will get shot in leg :D
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: Kafein on August 25, 2013, 10:44:36 pm
Quote from: Templar_Steevee on August 25, 2013, 07:35:42 pm
Crappy shield + low shield skill and you will get shot in leg :D

there I fixed it

Btw if the game only gets unbalanced in favor of archers when there are many archers in one team, that means there's an inherent flaw in the way archers interact with other classes. Having to enforce class balance for the game to be balanced only means it failed horribly at getting "combined arms" right. And that's exactly what is happening with cRPG and swarms of archers.
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 25, 2013, 11:37:30 pm
It also gets unbalanced for excessive cav discrepancies as well though...
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: Kafein on August 26, 2013, 12:42:09 am
Quote from: Tears of Destiny on August 25, 2013, 11:37:30 pm
It also gets unbalanced for excessive cav discrepancies as well though...

Maybe a very (and I mean very) long time ago it did sometimes. The constant cav nerfs made sure there aren't many players dumb and dedicated enough to keep playing cav.
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: Ellie on August 26, 2013, 05:38:43 am
CAv unbalance depends on the map. Mostly it's just wide open maps where cav still wreck shit.
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on August 26, 2013, 03:29:30 pm
Not on NA kafein (thought there was more cav on EU too).  Lower server population I usually get off my horse because I actually feel dirty riding around on it.  Cavalry and archers seem very overpowered with lower populations, especially when the balance decides to put 12 out of the 15 archers on one team. 

It's really bad if you get a group of 5 horse xbow (or archers) all rocking the same banner, they can literally destroy the fun for anyone on the opposite team (because their best counter, is other horse ranged, or ground ranged, and they can easily stay away from ground archers). 

The current balance system is fucking terrible, and it's flaws have been pointed out literally 1000's of times since it's inception.  But it's here to stay. 

if we had a better balance system, then I don't think archers and cavalry would be as heavily nerfed as they have been. 
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: Aderyn on September 01, 2013, 12:31:06 pm
Why is it in all your examples you aren't dodging arrows? Dodging an arrow from an archer you see is remarkably easy. Especially from the non-hero archers.

People that chase lightarmored archers they will never catch getting kited to death deserve to die for not using the terrain to their advantage.

Tired of getting shot in the feets when holding your shield up? Did you know you could strafe? Or even lower your shield! you can even feint this making them try shoot you in the head and you pull the 0 skill shield up last second (you will see if they try to shoot you in the head).

Most melee rage is because most melee are awful. They don't know how to dodge arrows, they don't know how to use terrain to their advantage. They are too used to just rushing forward in their big group that they never learned essential survival skills.

It could also be that the melee is a 2h/pole min max platecrutch. In wich case you don't really have to hide since arrows do fuck all damage unless hit in the head. I could take 10-15 arrows on my strbuild for example. Again, use terrain.

EVERYONE JUST CHARGING STRAIGHT AHEAD AT AN ARCHER IS A MORON AND SHOULD DIE ON THE SPOT.
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: Dezilagel on September 01, 2013, 04:00:57 pm
Quote from: Aderyn on September 01, 2013, 12:31:06 pm
'yubha<wjgvawtgtfuawd

You're awful at melee.
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: Templar_Steevee on September 02, 2013, 10:53:32 pm
Quote from: Aderyn on September 01, 2013, 12:31:06 pm
I could take 10-15 arrows on my strbuild for example

EVERYONE JUST CHARGING STRAIGHT AHEAD AT AN ARCHER IS A MORON AND SHOULD DIE ON THE SPOT.

I wish to see how you survive 6-7 arrows from me  8-)

You are talking about archers with tiny bows using cheapest arrows. Rus or long bow hurts more  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: rufio on September 02, 2013, 11:23:27 pm
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 :wink:

remove ranged stagger, and nerf throwing damage
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on September 03, 2013, 02:59:58 am
HA/HX are a bit annoying, especially with lower server populations.

It's weird, but I usually see them all stuck on the same team in NA battle, regardless of whether or not they share the same banner.
Title: Re: what is your opinion on range?
Post by: Kafein on September 03, 2013, 08:50:50 pm
Quote from: Aderyn on September 01, 2013, 12:31:06 pm
melee classes have to use "teamwork" and tactics which are effective in my head to kill me because I'm an archer martyr. I call anything that can survive being targeted by me a "counter" and I think dodging is a very complicated skill that is totally not mastered by everybody after one week of playing

pro tip : there's a difference between hard to pull off and ineffective. Dodging is the latter.