cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Vermilion on August 16, 2013, 10:24:43 pm

Title: Throwing Ammo (dedicated throwers)
Post by: Vermilion on August 16, 2013, 10:24:43 pm
Currently all high tier throwing weapons have very limited ammunition.

On Battle servers this is not such a problem as there is only so many enemies etc etc. So you can be selective about each throw and maintain ammo.

On Siege/DTV however ammo limitations are very apparent. On siege (especially when playing defense) the amount of enemies you can encounter can be vast. This leads to running out of ammo very quickly the norm for most lives despite how carefully you chose your shot.

My suggestion is -

An ammo increase for throwers when you have 3 stacks (EDIT - Maybe I should have clarified, 3 stacks of the same type. Mixing throwing weapons won't provide an ammo increase)

(Maybe the equivalent of an extra stack.. so 1 stacks of Jarids = 3, 2 stacks = 6, 3 stacks = 12)

This means people with some throwing won't get any buff (eg two hander with 1 or 2 stacks of throwing axes)
It also mean throwers with one hand and shield also won't get any buff

It will still be possible to have a 1 slot / 0 slot side weapon but your main skills will be focused on throwing.


I don't know the programming of such a feature, so I would love to hear back from a Dev about the feasibility of this suggestion (even if it's an out right no way, never going to do this).

Thanks for reading!
Title: Re: Throwing Ammo (dedicated throwers)
Post by: Tzar on August 16, 2013, 10:54:19 pm
I dont agree, i just think that throwing weapons should get an ammo buff just like loomed arrows  :!: Throwing weapons just have shitty ammo in general  :?
Title: Re: Throwing Ammo (dedicated throwers)
Post by: Ronin on August 16, 2013, 10:55:01 pm
Says Tzar, the javelin bandit guy from Warcraft III
Title: Re: Throwing Ammo (dedicated throwers)
Post by: Vermilion on August 16, 2013, 11:05:29 pm
I dont agree, i just think that throwing weapons should get an ammo buff just like loomed arrows  :!: Throwing weapons just have shitty ammo in general  :?

After nurfing Heavy Throwing Axes ammo I don't think an over all ammo buff is an option...

Though I do agree that looming should increase ammo
Title: Re: Throwing Ammo (dedicated throwers)
Post by: Palurgee on August 16, 2013, 11:09:08 pm
No.

Throwing is VERY powerful.

Ammo is far from a concern. There is ammo scattered across the map everywhere, and even if you miss you can just pick it back up and have at it again. Imagine how imbalanced this suggestion would make throwing lances. The entire premise of the throwing class is that they have high-damage weapons with low ammo. To give them more ammo is to make it an unbalanced class, which (in my opinion) is a line it is very close to crossing.

Says Tzar, the javelin bandit guy from Warcraft III

Brigand. Its a brigand.
Title: Re: Throwing Ammo (dedicated throwers)
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on August 16, 2013, 11:10:32 pm
I say naye.  Throwing is already stronger than hitting someone with a melee weapon (which I understand for gameplay balance, due to ammo limitation, but I still think it's booty). 

Here's a suggestion, use a different type of throwing weapon when you play DTV/Siege? 

Genius!
Title: Re: Throwing Ammo (dedicated throwers)
Post by: Bulzur on August 16, 2013, 11:19:32 pm
I dont agree, i just think that throwing weapons should get an ammo buff just like loomed arrows  :!: Throwing weapons just have shitty ammo in general  :?

Arrows gain a total of +33.33% of ammo for 3 heirloom points.
Throwing, for example Jarids, gain, with 3 heirloom points : 2 speed, 4 damage, 2 missile speed, 5 accuracy.
Gaining +33.33% ammo is perfect for Jarid, since that just means 4 at +3.
But how to balance it ? Less damage ? Less missile speed ? Less everything ?

I like my MW Jarids as they are now.

Contrary as archery, a thrower can choose between his throwing weapons, to choose the best according to the situation. If you only always carry the same stack of 3 Jarids only, then yeah, you'll run out of ammo pretty fast. (only 9 + 1 slot weapon/other throwing stuff).

I like having some war darts for example, against cavs or lightly armored people (archers !). And they come in a good quantity.

Throwing is fine.
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Title: Re: Throwing Ammo (dedicated throwers)
Post by: Vermilion on August 16, 2013, 11:20:19 pm
No.

Throwing is VERY powerful.

Ammo is far from a concern. There is ammo scattered across the map everywhere, and even if you miss you can just pick it back up and have at it again. Imagine how imbalanced this suggestion would make throwing lances. The entire premise of the throwing class is that they have high-damage weapons with low ammo. To give them more ammo is to make it an unbalanced class, which (in my opinion) is a line it is very close to crossing.

Brigand. Its a brigand.

Throwing is very powerful yes. However so is X-bow where you get a lot more ammo

Ammo however is a concern - picking up isn't always an option (hit a shield, some ladders/door/wall textures bug it so you can't pick it back up, etc)

Besides Archers/X-bow can pick up ammo also, yet they start with crap loads more ammo.

I really don't think it will make it imbalanced... For your throwing lance suggestion it's only 1 more ... 5 ammo maximum by comparison to 4 (You think that's the game changer?)

An X-bow can have 26 steel bolts (8 pierce) on an Arbalest which has a thrust of 85 pierce (AND a side weapon)
Title: Re: Throwing Ammo (dedicated throwers)
Post by: Tydeus on August 16, 2013, 11:22:24 pm
Dedicated throwers are a gimmick "fun" (fun thievery) build and as such, have enough killing potential as is. I'm much more interested in increasing accuracy at the cost of damage if we're going to be increasing the killing potential at all.
Title: Re: Throwing Ammo (dedicated throwers)
Post by: Vermilion on August 16, 2013, 11:23:12 pm
Contrary as archery, a thrower can choose between his throwing weapons, to choose the best according to the situation. If you only always carry the same stack of 3 Jarids only, then yeah, you'll run out of ammo pretty fast. (only 9 + 1 slot weapon/other throwing stuff).

That's why this suggestion is for 3 stacks

If you have different ammo for different classes you won't get any bonus
Title: Re: Throwing Ammo (dedicated throwers)
Post by: Haboe on August 16, 2013, 11:35:08 pm
No one forces you to go high tier trowing weps.
Back in the days i enjoyed trowing, i used 2 good stacks (jarids, javelins, spears or axes) and 2 stacks of wardarts. That gave me 16-20 things to trow + whatever i could loot.
Thats more then enough imo.
Title: Re: Throwing Ammo (dedicated throwers)
Post by: Vermilion on August 16, 2013, 11:37:15 pm
No one forces you to go high tier trowing weps.
Back in the days i enjoyed trowing, i used 2 good stacks (jarids, javelins, spears or axes) and 2 stacks of wardarts. That gave me 16-20 things to trow + whatever i could loot.
Thats more then enough imo.

Read the post above yours...

Edit - Also that is what I do, I mix some lower tier (1 or 2 stacks) with some high tier... But when your on a server filled with people with high body armor you need more high tier than lower...

All well and good having 32 throwing daggers.. but when you play against lots of plate armor you might as well have a nerf gun
Title: Re: Throwing Ammo (dedicated throwers)
Post by: Haboe on August 16, 2013, 11:44:20 pm
Read the post above yours...

Has nothing to do with it :P

I say that instead of your suggestion (3 stack bonus) you can just do what i wrote  :wink:

EDIT:
Throwing is very powerful yes. However so is X-bow where you get a lot more ammo

Ammo however is a concern - picking up isn't always an option (hit a shield, some ladders/door/wall textures bug it so you can't pick it back up, etc)

Besides Archers/X-bow can pick up ammo also, yet they start with crap loads more ammo.

I really don't think it will make it imbalanced... For your throwing lance suggestion it's only 1 more ... 5 ammo maximum by comparison to 4 (You think that's the game changer?)

An X-bow can have 26 steel bolts (8 pierce) on an Arbalest which has a thrust of 85 pierce (AND a side weapon)
An xbow is also way much slower.


Bow = high ammo compensates for medium speed and relatively low damage.
xbow = high ammo and high damage compensate for very low speed
trowing = very fast speed and high damage compensate for low ammo
Title: Re: Throwing Ammo (dedicated throwers)
Post by: Bulzur on August 16, 2013, 11:52:12 pm
Oh, and i doubt items can be "changed" depending on fighting in Battles or Sieges.

So yes, some builds/items are more effective on sieges than others, but seeing as the item date is the same for both, you can't change them (i believe).
And... if you can see my earlier post, it was "quoting" someone, and answering him... about adding extra ammo with heirloom. Wich is nearly the same as adding a 4th stack if carrying 3 identical stack, except more variety. And variety is good.


Also... my "dedicated"' thrower used to have 6 PS and 50 wpf in 2h. So i'll throw my stuff around, and loot a nice 2h weapon somewhere. That way, i'm still playing/slaying having fun. Just as you see archers with a melee weapon, except that we (throwers) go in melee sooner, and with less malus since we can keep a nice armor.

If you're a fully dedicated thrower (1wpf everywhere, 0 PS, 0 Riding, etc...) then yeah, lack of ammo. Try to find friends/allies who also throw stuff around. And if you can't pick up back any more ammo, then that means you've killed enough people already, and can go berserk with a melee weapon, even with 0 PS. (try the 1h stab)
Title: Re: Throwing Ammo (dedicated throwers)
Post by: Vermilion on August 17, 2013, 12:17:39 am

EDIT:An xbow is also way much slower.

Bow = high ammo compensates for medium speed and relatively low damage.
xbow = high ammo and high damage compensate for very low speed
trowing = very fast speed and high damage compensate for low ammo

I know x-bow is much slower which is why I'm not asking for equal amount of ammo... Just slightly more than what is currently available for dedicated throwers using muiltiple stacks of the same item.

And if you can't pick up back any more ammo, then that means you've killed enough people already, and can go berserk with a melee weapon, even with 0 PS. (try the 1h stab)

I don't want to play melee with a throwers build.. might as well just play as one of my melee characters lol

If you're a fully dedicated thrower (1wpf everywhere, 0 PS, 0 Riding, etc...) then yeah, lack of ammo. Try to find friends/allies who also throw stuff around.

One of my alts is a fully dedicated thrower no wpf in anything else, no PS etc
But I've had to make another alt which is a thrower and one handed

Personally I prefer pure throwing.. It's just the ammo issue. Which is why I am trying to make a solution which balances pure throwers.

I think shield throwers and people with some throwing are balanced.

--

We need something between war darts and Jarids/throwing spears.

Maybe take javelins down to 30 pierce and increase ammo to something like 5???

What is the point of Javelins at the moment? Look at their stats compared to Jarids.. Why have they got 7 less damage and the same ammo?
Title: Re: Throwing Ammo (dedicated throwers)
Post by: Algarn on August 17, 2013, 12:44:04 am
I agree to the fact Javelins are just too expensive , they are fine (according to all throwing weapons , but the price really doesn't fit with the effectivness = javelins were used by skirmishers , not by proper warriors , it was cheap , and still effective for the price). Reduce the price by a tierce or more , and you'll see more javelins on the battlefield. Javelins should be like fransiscas imho.
Title: Re: Throwing Ammo (dedicated throwers)
Post by: Tibe on August 17, 2013, 12:23:57 pm
Throwing is a very expenisve hobby for some reason. The cost should be reduced a lot. But adding ammo in any way? I dont agree with this.

 If you are skilled enough and acctually take time to aim your throws then there is enough ammo as far as im concerned(I have a thrower alt I play a lot with). I have seen throwers just randomly running around and just randomly throwing weapons like they dont give a shit from pretty long distances in hopes to get lucky until they run out of ammo, then they come to the forums and complain how they should have more ammo. Seriuslly? Mate if you already threw like 9 things totally randomly at the enemy without aiming and not even hit him once, then I think humanity has failed if they give into your request of giving you more chances on landing easy unplanned hits.

This above wasnt aimed at anybody particular. This is just how some throwers are.
Title: Re: Throwing Ammo (dedicated throwers)
Post by: Tzar on August 17, 2013, 02:28:25 pm
Tiberius.... tsk tsk..

I usually have to use 4 of my 6 mw jarids on one target before it goes down... the only time the shitty low ammo is great, is when you land those headshots. I usually avoid players in over high armor, unless i want to stagger them for my team mates to get a hit in.

But what ever, we been down this road before, and its clear the devs regard throwing as a gimmick class an thus refuse to give it a cookie every once in awhile..

But for god sake just 1 more ammo per throwing weapon would be a little step in the right direction.

I mean.. cmon u get like 40 rounds of bodkin arrows when u carry 2 stacks an when they are masterworked... we get 6 rounds if jarids or most of the other throwing weapons.. or if you use heavy throwing axes u get like 4 - 6 if you carry no shield...

Anyways, don“t think there is any use of trying to ask for it here on the forum, since we throwers are like 3% of the community here in crpg


Also just for lolz... credits goes to Cheapshot, even tho he went archer after given up...

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Title: Re: Throwing Ammo (dedicated throwers)
Post by: Tibe on August 17, 2013, 03:14:03 pm
I never said that it is OP. Its deeply underpowered imo. Already cause the precentage of dedicated throwers is as you put it 3. I dunno add its damage output or something. Im just against adding more ammo cause I see what goes on in the field. Most just throw it for lolz and go for luck alone in hopes of hitting something. Not even concentrating or anything. And its still generally a supportclass(sadly ofcourse), cause it only works well if used for a hybridbuild.

 I have gotten hit by your jards man. 40% hp taken from me. Thats pretty solid damageoutput. Considering I am somewhat slightly more str, armor and IF buffed then your average infantryman. I dont think throwing is ment for kill, but for support and weakining. I mean if you fighting someone in melee and a thrower shows up its about as scary as having a cbow standing next to you.
Title: Re: Throwing Ammo (dedicated throwers)
Post by: Tzar on August 17, 2013, 03:31:03 pm
I am somewhat slightly more str, armor and IF buffed then your average infantryman.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 

Tsk tsk...

Asking for a tiny microscopic ammo buff is clearly impossible with the short sighted mindset of this community...

Title: Re: Throwing Ammo (dedicated throwers)
Post by: Vermilion on August 17, 2013, 04:05:23 pm
Throwing is a very expenisve hobby for some reason. The cost should be reduced a lot. But adding ammo in any way? I dont agree with this.

I disagree with you here. For dedicated throwers the repair cost is about right. At x1 you're going to loose money quickly.. at x/3 you're going to break even.. at x4/5 you will be making money. (for a standard thrower build/equipment. Obviously you can use low tier items and make money at lower multipliers or wear highest tier gear and loose money at higher multipliers, just like any other class.)

I found this to be the same for my melee characters, archery and X-bow.

Throwing is however a very expensive "gimmick" is you want to have it along with your main melee weapon. But this is how it should be to keep it balanced. You should be paying more if you have a two hero sword and a stack or two of throwing weapons. Or if you have a shield and a 1h weapon along with throwing weapons.

If you are skilled enough and acctually take time to aim your throws then there is enough ammo as far as im concerned(I have a thrower alt I play a lot with). I have seen throwers just randomly running around and just randomly throwing weapons like they dont give a shit from pretty long distances in hopes to get lucky until they run out of ammo, then they come to the forums and complain how they should have more ammo. Seriuslly? Mate if you already threw like 9 things totally randomly at the enemy without aiming and not even hit him once, then I think humanity has failed if they give into your request of giving you more chances on landing easy unplanned hits.

This above wasnt aimed at anybody particular. This is just how some throwers are.


Im just against adding more ammo cause I see what goes on in the field. Most just throw it for lolz and go for luck alone in hopes of hitting something. Not even concentrating or anything. And its still generally a supportclass(sadly ofcourse), cause it only works well if used for a hybridbuild.

TBH I don't see what your issue is? You say a lot of throwers just throw "randomly". So what? That just means their not going to get any kills, it's their fault. They will still just run out of ammo very quickly (again, is 3 more really going to change this?).

Besides, normally I'm very conservative with my ammo (if I do throw a whole stack I keep it close together to pick up the misses). Yet the problem still exists at places such as siege where you're defending and there's a constant wave of enemies charging you down. I always run out of ammo, yet the archers and X-bows who have a side weapon still have plenty of ammo and keep firing long after.
Title: Re: Throwing Ammo (dedicated throwers)
Post by: Tibe on August 17, 2013, 07:55:32 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 

Tsk tsk...

Asking for a tiny microscopic ammo buff is clearly impossible with the short sighted mindset of this community...
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


its like you dont even know me man..... :(
Title: Re: Throwing Ammo (dedicated throwers)
Post by: Tzar on August 17, 2013, 07:59:51 pm
Then 40% my ass... unless u got 0 if  :lol:
Title: Re: Throwing Ammo (dedicated throwers)
Post by: Macropus on August 18, 2013, 06:11:32 pm
I'd rather see throwers able to pick up their ammo from corpses etc. Not sure if it's realistic at all, but it seems like a nice idea to me (maybe a little OP  :D).
Title: Re: Throwing Ammo (dedicated throwers)
Post by: Vermilion on August 18, 2013, 06:18:10 pm
Yeah if you could pick up ammo off broken shields, dead bodies, bugged textures than this would be completely a non issue.. if anything that would to too much lol

Nothing more annoying than when your (place throwing weapon name here) hits someone milliseconds after they get killed.. completely wasted ammo
Title: Re: Throwing Ammo (dedicated throwers)
Post by: Kafein on August 18, 2013, 06:28:13 pm
The situation in siege is a bit weird, as defender it's sometimes hard to get ammo but there are easy targets, as attacker you can always die and respawn to refill but there are fewer targets.


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Title: Re: Throwing Ammo (dedicated throwers)
Post by: Dalfador on August 18, 2013, 06:37:44 pm
Have a friend bring a construction site and make a weapon rack in a defendable area such as the flag. Then you can refill.
Title: Re: Throwing Ammo (dedicated throwers)
Post by: Strudog on August 18, 2013, 07:17:19 pm
was playing on my thrower alt last night, MW jarids are fine, but slightly annoying with the low ammo, i 1-2 hit people with 8 PT, Throwing is fine as it ables people to do good dmg but limits it to enough on the battlefield
Title: Re: Throwing Ammo (dedicated throwers)
Post by: Vermilion on August 18, 2013, 07:41:30 pm
The situation in siege is a bit weird, as defender it's sometimes hard to get ammo but there are easy targets, as attacker you can always die and respawn to refill but there are fewer targets.

Exactly.. Defender chuck em down a ladder or something... can't pick up any missed one. Screwed!
Attacker run out and have to suicide to get more.. (for pure throwers, hybirds can melee..)

was playing on my thrower alt last night, MW jarids are fine, but slightly annoying with the low ammo, i 1-2 hit people with 8 PT, Throwing is fine as it ables people to do good dmg but limits it to enough on the battlefield

What game mode? If siege attacking or defending? What map?

Have a friend bring a construction site and make a weapon rack in a defendable area such as the flag. Then you can refill.

Maybe there should be working weapon racks built into siege maps..
Title: Re: Throwing Ammo (dedicated throwers)
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on August 19, 2013, 11:37:43 am
I play a thrower - I dont have the feeling that I dont have enough ammo. I play with mw heavy throwing axes and just keep the last one for melee or pick up something else during battle. It seems to me that more people are playing thrower so I just pick up anything that lands near me and throw it back.
Title: Re: Throwing Ammo (dedicated throwers)
Post by: Strudog on August 19, 2013, 11:51:24 am


What game mode? If siege attacking or defending? What map?



Was playing battle, i was getting scores like 10-2, 8-3, one map i got 14-1 i think
Title: Re: Throwing Ammo (dedicated throwers)
Post by: Vermilion on August 19, 2013, 01:11:22 pm
Was playing battle, i was getting scores like 10-2, 8-3, one map i got 14-1 i think

Yeah battle mode this isn't an issue..

On Battle servers this is not such a problem as there is only so many enemies etc etc. So you can be selective about each throw and maintain ammo.

On Siege/DTV however ammo limitations are very apparent. On siege (especially when playing defense) the amount of enemies you can encounter can be vast. This leads to running out of ammo very quickly the norm for most lives despite how carefully you chose your shot.
Title: Re: Throwing Ammo (dedicated throwers)
Post by: Boerenlater on August 19, 2013, 02:09:05 pm
As a thrower myself, I say no.
If you really need ammo on siege just let somebody build a weapon rack.
Title: Re: Throwing Ammo (dedicated throwers)
Post by: Rumblood on August 21, 2013, 01:45:37 am
As a thrower myself, I say no.
If you really need ammo on siege just let somebody build a weapon rack.

Yep. I think it was Frank's team that was wrecking the place by building a weapon rack, having someone spawn throwing lances, toss them up to the team on the wall, which they then constantly rained down on the hapless pleebs below.  :lol:
Title: Re: Throwing Ammo (dedicated throwers)
Post by: Vermilion on August 21, 2013, 01:56:53 am
Anyone here who plays Eu_2 and will also build me a weapon rack when ever we're on the same team playing defense?

(I will just continue to suicide as attacker  :))