cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Elindor on July 15, 2013, 06:09:00 pm
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I know many see the LS as OP currently, especially with the recent speed/dmg buff. I agree the latest speed buff may not have been necessary and have a suggestion to return it to its former speed (or slower) with a compromise of increasing its length slightly in return.
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Current LS stats are:
weapon length: 106
weight: 1.8
difficulty: 10
speed rating: 99
thrust damage: 23 pierce
swing damage: 37 cut
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:arrow: I would propose to REDUCE its speed back to 98 base, while increasing its length to 108 (and possibly increase it's weight slightly because of that)
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Making its new stats as follows:
weapon length: 108
weight: 1.9 (2.0?)
difficulty: 10 (11?)
speed rating: 98
thrust damage: 23 pierce
swing damage: 37 cut
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This would make it more of a middle ground between the HBS and Two Handed Sword.
And it would fit its LONGsword title more :)
Also, possibly could lose it's use as a 1h if it gained more length.
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Thoughts?
Please resist "LS OP EZ MODE" comments, as a compromise of it's speed in exchange for length is what is being suggested :)
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I agree the LOngsowrd is OP, but just reverse it back to how it was, it was good weapon then, but is now ridiculously OP.
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I feel its damage fills a proper gap between the HBS and 2H Sword currently, although speed and length wise it is too close to the HBS.
Aside from reverting it back to where it was, do you think what I have suggested is a good proposition or not? Not just from a "nerf LS!!!!" standpoint, but in a balancing standpoint in general?
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Currently i am playing 2h cav, a buff to the length would be nice for the longsword as atm it is being outreached by most 1h cav. It is a good suggestion and would be a slight buff the 2h cav which is needed
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Currently i am playing 2h cav, a buff to the length would be nice for the longsword as atm it is being outreached by most 1h cav. It is a good suggestion and would be a slight buff the 2h cav which is needed
How is 1h cav outreaching you? Longsword is 1 point longer than the longest 1h sword available.
They also use the exact same animation on horseback.
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How is 1h cav outreaching you? Longsword is 1 point longer than the longest 1h sword available.
They also use the exact same animation on horseback.
This times a million.
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How is 1h cav outreaching you? Longsword is 1 point longer than the longest 1h sword available.
They also use the exact same animation on horseback.
I have only played 2h cav for a short while, but every time i come into contact with a 1h cav with a arabian cav sword, it seems to outreach me, maybe this is my problem and i suck at 2h cav, but with healthy scores i believe im not that bad, Maybe its the ghost range ( does it exist?)of the 1h but thats the opinion that i feel while playing 2h cav.
Plus anyway 1h cav is 10x better than 2h cav
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I have only played 2h cav for a short while, but every time i come into contact with a 1h cav with a arabian cav sword, it seems to outreach me, maybe this is my problem and i suck at 2h cav, but with healthy scores i believe im not that bad, Maybe its the ghost range ( does it exist?)of the 1h but thats the opinion that i feel while playing 2h cav.
Plus anyway 1h cav is 10x better than 2h cav
1 point longer 3 times slower, and no shield,
2h cav is joke as long you don't use g axe and similar weapon, morningstar is cool but kind of short
2h cav need some love and it is:
Bar Mace
Long Iron Mace
Dadao
Two Handed Sword
miadao is way to op so i will not sugest that
Highland Claymore
Now my argumentation:
1h cav 1hit a lot and is really fast, probably with no reduction to dmg at all
that weapons are slow by default and in most cases unbalanced, they should be all unbalanced with that big swords ect.
at the moment we have
Shortened Military Scythe
weapon length: 112
weight: 2.2
difficulty: 10
speed rating: 90
weapon length: 112
thrust damage: 27 pierce
swing damage: 39 cut
slots: 2
usable from the horse back, really god for that shit on foot but also cheap(balanced)
that weapons can be balanced for that kind of fight
because they are slow + 2h cav penalty and no shield= eazzy job for nage to counter, all that stuffs are balanced with reach and dmg
ofc it is only idea but i think that shuld not break the game
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I have only played 2h cav for a short while, but every time i come into contact with a 1h cav with a arabian cav sword, it seems to outreach me, maybe this is my problem and i suck at 2h cav, but with healthy scores i believe im not that bad, Maybe its the ghost range ( does it exist?)of the 1h but thats the opinion that i feel while playing 2h cav.
Plus anyway 1h cav is 10x better than 2h cav
not ghost range, simply being inexperienced in dealing with other cavalry.
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not ghost range, simply being inexperienced in dealing with other cavalry.
But tell me this, would you pick 2h cav or 1h cav?
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1h cav because the shield is ridiculously important, my favorite thing about playing archer/xbow is how easy it is to shoot cavalry coming at you without a shield
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you can get a shield as 2h cav or does that make it into 1h?
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it will use 1 h wpf
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besides it's slow as fuck.
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But do you believe that the 1 reach the longsword has over the arab cav sword is enough to make it easy to outrange 1h cav?
Considering 1h cav is a much easier and better class
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But do you believe that the 1 reach the longsword has over the arab cav sword is enough to make it easy to outrange 1h cav?
Considering 1h cav is a much easier and better class
no, one reach no matter what would barely make a difference. however different swing animations and length of them can make a difference, but afaik they use same animations
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Arabian Cavalry Sword shits all over any other horseslashing weapon, I can't believe this is even a discussion.
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I agree the LOngsowrd is OP, but just reverse it back to how it was, it was good weapon then, but is now ridiculously OP.
+1 speed and +1 dmg changed longsword from "good weapon" to "ridiculously OP"? :rolleyes: I'm not saying longsword isn't OP, dunno, I don't use it, so it's hard to say for me.
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+1 speed and +1 dmg changed longsword from "good weapon" to "ridiculously OP"? :rolleyes: I'm not saying longsword isn't OP, dunno, I don't use it, so it's hard to say for me.
The Longsowrd was already a very effective weapon and they buffed, ridiculous was more of an exaggeration and i apologise for that
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The issue with the longsword has never been the actual stats, just the fact that at some speed threshold around 97+, 2h is able to pull off absurd feats with relative ease. The high speed coupled with the generous 2h sweetspots and favorable animations enables double hits against people with equally fast or faster weapons simply by strafing away from their swing while turning into yours (hiltslash/castor/whatever you want to call it).
Neither pole nor 1h can readily pull this off (even with super fast weapons) but it's a snap with 2h. So your proposed Longsword changes are obviously balanced in a relative sense, but something still needs to be done about the exploitable 2h animation sweetspots, or people will continue to rage about the Miaodao/Katana/HBS/LS.
Note: Elindor doesn't actually perform castor/hiltslashing/whatever; either because he's a nice guy or maybe his non-inverted mouse setup precludes the maneuver. But certain players like King_Chris attempt a second swing immediately after their first one is blocked most of the time; if he guesses wrong about his opponent's next swing, no big deal, he just blocks and tries again next attack.
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Well, part true and partially not true. I do hiltslash some, not as much as others, no. I do use MOUSE DIRECTION and not inverted, yes.
As is typical of the hiltslashing conversation - your description sounds different than what I refer to as hiltslashing (which I derived from an account by Tydeus). The description of hiltslashing put out by Tydeus is basically, while very close to your opponent, swinging your body in the direction of your attack as you release your attack, thus adding momentum dmg to your attack and allowing it to cause high damage at a very early part of the swing where it normally should not.
In any case, of the swords you listed I'd say LS/HBS are the less dangerous/OP.
And Phew i have to disagree in that polearms can definitely hiltslash. Agi polearms are among the weirdest things to fight currently.
I am relatively sure 1h cannot hiltslash very well, but I don't know if I'd call 1h underpowered anymore (not saying you did), they are quite viable these days.
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I actually need to hiltslash more :mrgreen: but no I don't perform it as often as some, and yes I use MOUSE DIRECTION not INVERTED MOUSE DIRECTION.
In any case, of the swords you listed I'd say LS/HBS are the less dangerous/OP.
And Phew i have to disagree, polearms can definitely hiltslash. Agi polearms are among the weirdest things to fight currently.
I think the key to hiltslashing is to train yourself that after your attack is blocked, to immediately start strafing and your next swing, and don't even think about blocking (just positioning to have your attack land early). You just have to use common sense (don't strafe into a 1h left swing or polearm right swing, since those are fast). I know from fighting you that you usually seem committed to the attack/block paradigm. It's a tough habit to break; I still have trouble forcing myself to "spam" hoplites and maulers.
Miaodao is definitely the most OP 2h; it never seems any slower than the longsword, since it can hit without glancing even earlier due to the higher damage. You can't walk 10 ft without seeing a +3 Miaodao now.
I haven't really paid much attention to polearmers since the latest patch where they got new animations; so apparently they've joined the hiltslash party now?
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I edited my post a good bit based on your quote LOL
But yes, I still expect the "attack/block" routine and when people circumvent that they can often surprise me. I need to work on breaking that...I suppose I'll have to spam more lol :)
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Miaodao is definitely the most OP 2h; it never seems any slower than the longsword, since it can hit without glancing even earlier due to the higher damage. You can't walk 10 ft without seeing a +3 Miaodao now.
Funny how 2h were always OP because of the lolstab, and you quote one of the rare 2h weapons without a stab as OP.
Never having to worry about an insta thrust from this weapon makes it easier to deal with. Most people underestimate the reach though, so they get hit for max dmg, and from such a high damage sword, it sure hurts.
Miaodao is definitely a good 2h weapon, but not the best.
You have to give away the 2h thrust wich gives you :
-cavalry disuasion (damn, he's got the thrust, too risky trying to bumpslash him)
-good ganking ability (when surrounded by teammates, the thrust is the easiest to land on one ennemy. Sideswings tend to hit allies, overhead can kill teammates)
-an extra attack pattern for duelling
I use a +3 Miadao myself, since quite a long time, on a 24/18 build, and of course it's great. But there's always thoses situations where you really feel the lack of a thrust.
Concerning the OP, i wouldn't mind a slight rework of the longsword, but... slight. As in very slight. I don't see it as that much overpowered.
Maybe the -1 speed, and +1 weight can be enough, without touching the damage though.
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Miaodao is definitely a good 2h weapon, but not the best.
I only play siege, so my perception of balance issues is skewed by that. The tight quarters and lack of cav make thrust less critical on siege. But the high damage+speed+reach of Miaodao probably make it the best 2h sword for siege.
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Full str, +3 tincan gear and +3 miaodao on siege is so fucken easy and fun. Spam spam spam spam spam.
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The only time weapon length gets adjusted, is to correct ghost reach issues. Never for any other reasons.
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The issue with the longsword has never been the actual stats, just the fact that at some speed threshold around 97+, 2h is able to pull off absurd feats with relative ease. The high speed coupled with the generous 2h sweetspots and favorable animations enables double hits against people with equally fast or faster weapons simply by strafing away from their swing while turning into yours (hiltslash/castor/whatever you want to call it).
Neither pole nor 1h can readily pull this off (even with super fast weapons) but it's a snap with 2h. So your proposed Longsword changes are obviously balanced in a relative sense, but something still needs to be done about the exploitable 2h animation sweetspots, or people will continue to rage about the Miaodao/Katana/HBS/LS.
Note: Elindor doesn't actually perform castor/hiltslashing/whatever; either because he's a nice guy or maybe his non-inverted mouse setup precludes the maneuver. But certain players like King_Chris attempt a second swing immediately after their first one is blocked most of the time; if he guesses wrong about his opponent's next swing, no big deal, he just blocks and tries again next attack.
I totally agree about sweetspots in this game being dumb. I won't hold my breath waiting for them to get fixed, though.
In the meantime, the easiest way to not get double-hit is just to back up slightly. If you fight at the max length of your 1-hander, a 2-hander won't be able to do that to you.
One thing though, it's a hell of a lot harder to avoid an agi user with a longsword when you're using a shield. Mostly because shields are way too goddamn heavy. It's pretty easy to maneuver around a shield user just 'cause those damn shields just eat up all your speed. For example, a Huscarl weighs more than a great maul. :shock:
Reducing the weight of shields would help solve a lot of problems. Sure it would make a shielder more susceptible to shield stun, but that's an easy problem to work around as it is.
The longsword itself isn't really overpowered. Honestly, I find greatswords perform much better in most situations. If shield weight got reduced and the enormous cone was removed from kicks, things would be a lot better.
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In the meantime, the easiest way to not get double-hit is just to back up slightly. If you fight at the max length of your 1-hander, a 2-hander won't be able to do that to you.
Yeah, I still can't get it through my skull that facehug range is the comfort zone for 2h. I stubbornly play like short 1h weapons have an advantage at short range, even though they don't.
Also, I seem to get kicked more often at ~1m distance than in facehug range. Kick needs to be toned down even more than the 2h animation sweetspots, which only bears mentioning in this thread because it seems like the people that abuse 2h animations the most also abuse kicks the most.