cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: CrazyCracka420 on July 10, 2013, 04:56:55 pm

Title: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on July 10, 2013, 04:56:55 pm
I know that it's highly unlikely to see a conquest mode come out to replace battle mode (where there are 3 or 5 flags on the map with 2 active at a time and it progressively moves closer or farther from your spawn point based on what flag gets captured). 

So as an alternative, which I think will give relatively the same effect, could we just have MOTF (Master of the Flag, aka the two flags that pop up towards end of rounds) spawn on every map very early in the round?  This will give infantry something to fight over, and ground to try and take and hold (which is where infantry shines).  Infantry is always going to be vulnerable when they are trying to run around the maps in a circle chasing down ninjas, archers and horse xbows/archers. 

Instead of making infantry chase people down, it will force people to try and engage the infantry who is trying to hold the MOTF.  We might actually start to see more "formations" (they would be very loose and rag-tag, but they would start to show up).  This would mean that cavalry and archers would have to get into the scrum when your infantry dies and it's just the enemy infantry trying to capture the flag.

I think we'd see a lot more teamwork, it would solve the archer "problem" (which I honestly think archers and light horses are underpowered at the moment, but their problem lies with the battle game mode).  Infantry no longer has to choose between camping behind a building for 3 minutes, or trying to run up a mountain to engage 10 archers spread out along it (because let's face it, it's smart to camp and wait for MOTF, but not a lot of people have the patience or intelligence to do so).

In real life, infantry was good at taking and holding ground.  They didn't need artificial "go here and hold this ground" like a MOTF spawn.  When one infantry rolled the other, there was a decisive winner with one side trying to retreat.  But in c-rpg, there is no retreating.  When one infantry side controls the "strong point" of a map (whether it's a hill or a village) the round still continues, archers can still pick away and cav can still try to pick off stragglers, and horse archers can still ride around the outside of the map trying to get kills.  I think spawning MOTF early in the round will solve the problem, and give infantry an objective to go for (ground to hold) which is really where infantry shines. 


There would need to be some tweaking done to the maps to make MOTF spawn relatively "even" distance from both spawns.  It should also probably have some variable to adjust the times for how long it takes to put the flags up based on how many people are in the server.  Also if you could have different spawn points for MOTF (if it made sense for the map) that would be cool too so it's not as predictable where it will pop up. 
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: Joker86 on July 10, 2013, 05:44:13 pm
While a battle mode with early MOTF still has a lot of flaws, it is still at least a billion times better than the battle mode in its current shape.

So a big yes!

Cracka, I agree 100% to your post. Today is a very happy day.  :lol:
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: Butan on July 10, 2013, 07:20:46 pm
Big Yes.

If the flags appeared very early, somewhere in the middle of the map, it would force people to work toward a goal, instead of individually trying to get the closer/easier kill.


You should write what MOTF means in your first message to clarify things  :wink:
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: Kafein on July 10, 2013, 07:30:37 pm
I can only plus this
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: Molly on July 10, 2013, 07:46:12 pm
tl;dr

...voted "Other - see my post"!
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: Necrorave on July 10, 2013, 07:49:00 pm
I agree with this and I really like it personally.

Only thing.  I feel if this were to happen it would be smart to make the "Capture" radius around flags a bit bigger.

Other then that I agree
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: Riddaren on July 10, 2013, 07:56:49 pm
What does MOTF mean? Middle of the fight?
If that is the case it should be ITMOTF "In the middle of the fight".

Or did you simply mean flags?
You should have abbreviated that with FLGS.

Have there ever been any other flags in this game than the ones you capture?
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: Necrorave on July 10, 2013, 07:59:26 pm
Other

What does MOTF mean? Middle of the fight?

Master Of The Field
Maker Of Toilet Faucets
Moldy Oranges Taste Funky
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: sdfjkln on July 10, 2013, 08:05:07 pm
(click to show/hide)

Oh god, finally someone else sees the glaring flaw of the current MOTF(when flags come out) system. I've actually suggested this in other threads and received the reply that "to hard, complex to change" or "go play seige then". But yeah kiting is only a problem because you have to kill everything on the map to win, or wait 5 minutes for the flags to pop up. Put out the flags earlier and you voila you don't have to chase anymore, kiting loses its OPness. I thinks it's dumb and funny, how many classes have been nerfed (arrow weight) because devs are balancing classes against flawed game modes.
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on July 10, 2013, 08:05:48 pm
Sorry ya'll, edited first post to explain what MOTF is (master of the flag, aka the two flags that pop up).

Also agree that the radius should be larger, and the flag cap times probably longer (they go up very quick if you have 10+ people standing on them).  I don't know if it's possible, but both of these variables would be nice if they could be dynamic, aka the radius gets larger and the cap times longer the more people in the server (and vice versa)
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: Smoothrich on July 10, 2013, 08:07:42 pm
My problem, is it would make gameplay really repetitive. Some of the maps in this game are pretty big and well designed enough to support fighting all over it, a single MOTF will effectively cut off the vast majority of the map until the same scenery gets stale.

This will suck for flanking playstyles really badly as well.
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: Necrorave on July 10, 2013, 08:11:07 pm
My problem, is it would make gameplay really repetitive. Some of the maps in this game are pretty big and well designed enough to support fighting all over it, a single MOTF will effectively cut off the vast majority of the map until the same scenery gets stale.

This will suck for flanking playstyles really badly as well.

Give maps different places that the MOTF would spawn.  Make it random.  So players cannot wait around until it pops up.  This way they would work together to make it to the goal
(Which they will not know the location of until it pops up)
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on July 10, 2013, 08:13:10 pm
I got no sympathy for the flankers (such as myself on cav). Flankers would still be useful, but more in their historical sense (rather than one guy being rambo, you'd have maybe a couple guys flanking the enemy while your main infantry is engaging them). But I do agree it would add a lot of repetition and cut off a lot of maps cool areas. 

Would be nice to get different possible places MOTF could spawn per round, this would help alleviate that problem.  A true "conquest" game mode with 5 flags around the map would be the best (where you progress either towards the enemy spawn or have to defend your own as the enemy advances flags).  A zone control wouldn't be very cool IMO (where all 5 zones are active at a time).   But I don't see conquest ever seeing the light of day, so I thought this was the next best solution (even though there would obviously be flaws and things that need to be worked out)
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: sdfjkln on July 10, 2013, 08:13:47 pm
My problem, is it would make gameplay really repetitive. Some of the maps in this game are pretty big and well designed enough to support fighting all over it, a single MOTF will effectively cut off the vast majority of the map until the same scenery gets stale.

This will suck for flanking playstyles really badly as well.

Gameplay is already repetative on shit maps where one teams ranged camps roof, and your only choice is to charge in and get skewered or wait 4 more minutes for the motf to come out. But oh wait one hero charges so now everyone has to wait an extra 30 seconds for flag.
A single MOTF would definitely get stale after awhile, but since the combat is focused on one portion of the map; rounds would be shorter, so more rapid map switching might take the sting out of that a bit

I don't think flankers would change their playstyle regardless, calling their playstyle "flanking" is a stretch though.
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: Necrorave on July 10, 2013, 08:14:21 pm
I got no sympathy for the flankers (such as myself on cav).  But I do agree it would add a lot of repetition and cut off a lot of maps cool areas. 

Would be nice to get multiple MOTF areas for maps and have them spawn randomly, this would help alleviate that problem.  A true "conquest" game mode with 5 flags around the map would be the best (where you progress either towards the enemy spawn or have to defend your own as the enemy advances flags).  A zone control wouldn't be very cool IMO (where all 5 zones are active at a time).   But I don't see conquest ever seeing the light of day, so I thought this was the next best solution (even though there would obviously be flaws and things that need to be worked out)

Lets not get crazy.  I like the idea of one MOTF....
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on July 10, 2013, 08:15:32 pm
Lets not get crazy.  I like the idea of one MOTF....

Sorry when I say multiple MOTFs I don't mean all at once in a round, I mean different places they can possibly spawn from round to round.  Basically verbatim with your previous post.
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: sdfjkln on July 10, 2013, 08:21:31 pm
My only question is how early? You'd just want to give enough time for teams to organize and or plan, 30 seconds enough for that? a minute?
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on July 10, 2013, 08:24:50 pm
My only question is how early? You'd just want to give enough time for teams to organize and or plan, 30 seconds enough for that? a minute?

Yeah I thought 30 seconds or a minute would be good (after longer reflection a 1 minute mark would have to be the earliest, I think 1.5 or 2 mins in would be better)
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: Necrorave on July 10, 2013, 08:32:39 pm
Yeah I thought 30 seconds or a minute would be good.

I think that is a bit quick.  Some battle maps are huge as Smooth mentioned.  I think if you were to do something.  It would be after the first minute or two.  By then there might still be groups alive and working as a team but the full force has dwindled.  We do not want one team ending up going the "Right way" in the beginning of a big map and capping the MOTF before the other team even has a chance to attack.
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: Kafein on July 10, 2013, 08:33:02 pm
My problem, is it would make gameplay really repetitive. Some of the maps in this game are pretty big and well designed enough to support fighting all over it, a single MOTF will effectively cut off the vast majority of the map until the same scenery gets stale.

This will suck for flanking playstyles really badly as well.

Actually I think cav and flanking playstyles in general would get an advantage out of it, because flanking is pretty useless unless the attention of the enemy is directed somewhere else. The difficulties flanking playstyles are experiencing with the current battle setup is that people can avoid combat and thus stay aware of their surroundings for a much longer time, which renders flanking useless if you can only do it effectively in the last part of the battle.

Yeah I thought 30 seconds or a minute would be good.

I think the instant people can't spawn anymore would be a good choice.
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: Butan on July 10, 2013, 08:45:39 pm
I think the instant people can't spawn anymore would be a good choice.

+1



But we shouldnt turn this post into a in-depth discussion about a mechanism that isnt sure to be implemented;

First lets all wholefully agree that this idea pown  :P and harass  game admin into thinking about it !
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: Templar_Steevee on July 10, 2013, 10:33:26 pm
That can be funny gamemode but need to do a lot of work before implement it.
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: Necrorave on July 10, 2013, 10:34:51 pm
That can be funny gamemode but need to do a lot of work before implement it.

 :?  Sighhh...
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: Vodner on July 10, 2013, 10:43:45 pm
Being lazy and quoting myself, since I doubt too many people read page 8 of the 'Archery after last patch' thread:
This. I forget who I originally saw suggest this (I think it was Xeen), but making MoTF spawn early in the round would solve a lot of issues in battle. Some people run off into the corner and do nothing all round? Doesn't matter, the game ends without them needing to die. Bunch of people holed up in an easily defensible location? Again, doesn't matter, unless that location is actually on the flags. Some HA/HX kiting in a 1v15 situation? Doesn't matter, unless he's holding the flags.

Right now, the best solution to people holed up in a defensible location is to do absolutely nothing for several minutes in a row, until MoTF eventually spawns. People either have to choose between having fun, or winning. I'm stubborn, so I prefer to wait for the MoTF just to spite the other guys (even if we have 30+ people and it's just a single enemy). It is also incredibly frustrating to throw myself into a meatgrinder along with a handful of teammates in a last-ditch effort to do enough damage to eke out a win, just to die and see that there are a chunk of well-armored friendly infantry hiding in a corner so that they can score some kills before we lose.

The only issue I can think of is that MoTF spawns would all have to be balanced so that both teams both have equal access to them.

e:
The radius and cap time of the flags would likely have to be increased to accommodate high player counts. There are also a whole slew of interesting balance tweaks that could be tried - for example, weighing players close to the flag heavier than players who are at the extremity of the cap radius.
Ideally the cap area should be large enough to accommodate various playstyles, while not quite large enough to allow players to run off and hide in a corner so that they can drag out a round that is already a near-guaranteed loss.
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on July 12, 2013, 07:07:51 pm
BUMP

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: Berserkadin on July 12, 2013, 07:12:21 pm
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Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: Adamar on July 12, 2013, 08:54:13 pm
Lol I was thinking big yes, even before I read the posts.

Bring some order to battle.
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: Cyranule on July 12, 2013, 11:57:40 pm
It wouldn't be the end all be all solution for battle servers but it would be a nice step in the right direction.
Most rounds are over or near over by two minutes so having the flags spawn would change nothing.
30 seconds in would change a hell of a lot though. 
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: Dionysus on July 14, 2013, 12:34:06 am
I think an early MotF is an interesting suggestion for Battle. My question: would the location be fixed, or would it be random every round?
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: Akynos on July 14, 2013, 06:26:35 am
Great idea, please keep supporting it guys so the devs notice it.
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on July 15, 2013, 05:12:25 pm
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Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: Vodner on July 16, 2013, 08:24:24 pm
It wouldn't be the end all be all solution for battle servers but it would be a nice step in the right direction. Most rounds are over or near over by two minutes so having the flags spawn would change nothing.
In my experience, most rounds are decided in about two minutes, and then take another two minutes to play out while two people hiding in a building try to pad their K:D versus twenty opponents, before inevitably dying.

I find this doubly frustrating, because when I'm in the same position I'll go out of my way to charge the bulk of the enemy to get the next round started, since I'm certain nobody wants to watch me try to farm valor.
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on July 16, 2013, 10:38:00 pm
Farm that valor son :P if I know my team's already lost the round (it's 3 vs 20) I'll usually do my best to rack up my score to get valor...

I won't go out of my way to hide or ride around without engaging people, I try not to draw out the rounds either if I'm the last one or two guys left, but I will try my hardest to get valor
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: Xeen on July 16, 2013, 10:42:17 pm
I think the big thing to remember here, is that they could balance things accordingly.  I feel archers should really have the ammo-weight reduced considerably at the very least, and at least the charger horse variants should be able to run over more than a few people at a time like they used to(these things were justifiably nerfed for current battle in my opinion).  Having a functional motf would give the devs a logistical constant to balance around.

Having played in servers with an early motf set in both scrim and casual settings, I can testify that ranged would still play a huge role in inflicting initial casualties and extending their attack power to the targets that really need to be hit, the latter of which I think should really be a much more important part of being ranged than it currently is.  Battle in it's current state, quite often, is so much more about locking as many people out of interaction as possible than it is anything else.  When this topic comes up, this seems to be the most common criticism, that "you just don't want ranged to be able to do anything".  Quite the contrary, I want ranged to play a much larger role than it currently does, not just "don't let anyone come near me, THE END".  I also don't think people realize how effective flanking ranged is while a perhaps smaller, but hopefully more defensive infantry group denies cap.

Seriously, if something like this were to be implemented, a huge group of my real life friends would almost definitely start playing again.  I have a feeling that many people feel the same way.

Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: Tzar on July 16, 2013, 11:14:53 pm
+1 GIEF US CONQUEST  :!:  :lol:
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: Smoothrich on July 17, 2013, 12:01:18 am
I'm just gonna post my 99 +1's thread suggestion here.

Tydeus, Urist, instead of adding super street fighter ultra cancel combos for invincibility frame rolls, why not try implementing a little ambitious, but simple new gamemode with all the assets available, for fun, and as a massive breath of fresh air for the community?

Chance to show off ya'll talent, and man would we all appreciate it.

http://forum.meleegaming.com/suggestions-corner/conquest-gametype-combine-strategus-siege-and-battle-into-1-bad-assed-mode/msg596353/#msg596353
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: Dalfador on July 17, 2013, 05:24:12 am
sounds cool, a lot of the maps would have to be modified or removed from the rotation, or add some new more balanced ones for this gametype
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: Templar_Steevee on July 21, 2013, 09:17:21 pm
I voted No, but it could be funny to know where most ppl are trying to go, find a nice spot and nail them with arrows. A group of standing close to each other players is a really good shooting target. There will always be a few unaware players that will notice me after I`ll put an arrow in their head  :twisted:
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: Miwiw on July 21, 2013, 09:41:57 pm
I wouldn't want to lose battle mode. Playing battle since beta and cannot do without. :P
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: Memento_Mori on July 22, 2013, 07:27:24 pm
I voted No, but it could be funny to know where most ppl are trying to go, find a nice spot and nail them with arrows. A group of standing close to each other players is a really good shooting target. There will always be a few unaware players that will notice me after I`ll put an arrow in their head  :twisted:

You can already do this, on my horse archer I rush out every round and put at least 3 arrows into the mass amount of people as they're walking out of spawn. sdjkfn(or however you spell it) does this practically every round on his horse crossbow. It's surprisingly effective, people don't expect arrows/bolts to the face a few seconds after they spawn.

In battle atm it's not about knowing where people are going to go, you know that if you sit on a hill the entire round they'll eventually have to come and kill you in order to finish the round, or wait around doing nothing for MOTF.

Snowy village map almost always has people camp that giant mountain/hill that the one team spawns beside. After a few rounds of camping-butt-rape people want to camp the "xp barn" to counter the mountain/hill campers. It turns into a very long and boring map.

MOTF isn't reliable atm, takes too long most of the time for it to be an effective counter to these incredibly boring playstyles and leads to people just sitting around waiting for it or charging in to have some fun before dying and waiting in spec for the circus act of a map to end.

-edit-

I feel adding this would probably make the game feel a little more gamey/arcadey since everyone would be expecting MOTF and pretty much forced to fight in certain locations. Anyway this last bit I'm just trying to say I don't dislike how battle is now, I like the freedom of being able to use different tactics and parts of the map but sometimes those different tactics or parts of the map don't make for the most exciting gameplay for everyone. I think that's what I wanted to add to this.
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: Zekerage on July 24, 2013, 01:01:09 pm
I suggested this (http://forum.meleegaming.com/suggestions-corner/thoughts-and-suggestions-on-a-new-game-mechanic/msg130549/#msg130549) exact thing nearly 2 years ago. I feel some of the possible problems/issues/concerns were addressed/discussed in the thread. While it does seem that MOTF spawns more frequently now, it's definitely nowhere near where it needs to be.
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on July 29, 2013, 04:05:46 pm
Bampity bamp bamp
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: Jona on August 01, 2013, 01:45:22 am
I'm all for this, as long as we still have plenty of time to just run at each other in the usual chaotic manner. That's half the fun! The way you worded it, saying that the flags should appear very early, makes me unsure of just how early you would want. As of now they spawn after 4-ish mins, I think. I would say have them appear after 2.5 or 3 mins. I still want to have plenty of time to fight randomly. And not to mention that sometimes searching for people (when its maybe 15 v 15.. not 20 v 1) can sometimes be enjoyable... like the times when you fight on the frontlines, push through.. keep killing and then turn around and see that you are the sole survivor of that massacre.. all alone... rest of your team somewhere else.. and all you see are a few stragglers on the opposing team... etc, etc. Idk, I personally find it fun, whether or not anyone else does, idk. I just wouldn't want an early MOTF to ruin those experiences.

Also, in case you specified a certain time in some later post, I apologize, only read the first few posts here.
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: karasu on August 01, 2013, 02:01:35 am
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Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on August 06, 2013, 05:32:08 pm
cmp please to implement this?
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Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: Palurgee on August 19, 2013, 02:01:49 am
Bump
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: Rumblood on August 19, 2013, 02:39:14 am
cmp please to implement this?
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Nice pic of a girl just before she gets her eye put out  :shock:
Title: Re: Change battle to 'conquest' mode by spawning MOTF early in rounds
Post by: Necrorave on August 19, 2013, 09:17:51 am
I feel adding this would probably make the game feel a little more gamey/arcadey since everyone would be expecting MOTF and pretty much forced to fight in certain locations. Anyway this last bit I'm just trying to say I don't dislike how battle is now, I like the freedom of being able to use different tactics and parts of the map but sometimes those different tactics or parts of the map don't make for the most exciting gameplay for everyone. I think that's what I wanted to add to this.

Another idea: Maybe after a certain amount of time on the server.  It will start to count the time between kills.  If a kill is not made within 30-60 seconds, a MOTF will appear.

That way the game does not force people to fight in a certain area.  It will just force people to come out of hiding instead if the action dies out.

I do agree, we do not want the game to be too "Arcade-like".