cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Matey on July 10, 2013, 08:59:14 am
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Many of the best players in NA cRPG have completely given up on 1H saying that they are just not worth playing any more; a big part of that is the goofy new kick (which isn't even really new anymore I guess but still hasn't been fixed in the latest patches for some reason) that is stupid easy to land on players who use short reach weapons unless they put tons of effort into dodging kicks which then handicaps them pretty hard in terms of landing good hits of their own. There are other issues with 1h like the glancing and low damage but meh I can live with that I guess. I would like to at the very least see kicking fixed as it currently has area of effect, longer reach than it should, and a bit of a hang where even after kicking and missing the kick will still connect if someone moves back in to engage the kicker... there are also times when you stab someone as they kick and put your sword into them for damage... but still get kicked and then one shot after.
I highly encourage some of those highly talented individuals who have experience with 1H but have recently written it off as a lost cause to post in here but I figured I would let you guys speak for yourselves if you wanted to.
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I could add knockdown when getting hit during a kick.
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I could add knockdown when getting hit during a kick.
just make it so kicks are like native but without blocking. thats all it would take. right now its waaaay easier to land a kick in crpg... but you cant block. it is hard to say which is worse.
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played a 1h with no shield for a while, one best classes in the game, i would say its up there with 2h
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I could add knockdown when getting hit during a kick.
First answer after a suggestion OP, containing a reasonable fix proposal by a dev?
+ sympathy points!
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played a 1h with no shield for a while, one best classes in the game, i would say its up there with 2h
Perhaps with the old nudge. 2h is far superior now. Much higher damage, better reach and nearly the same speed.
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Perhaps with the old nudge. 2h is far superior now. Much higher damage, better reach and nearly the same speed.
and balanced fast knockdown weapons
ofc shield is worthless no point to talk about that
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I could add knockdown when getting hit during a kick.
the problem is that you get kicked while the foot does not even touch you.
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I like Paul's suggestion, but I think it would just be better to go back to the kick effect we had before blocking was removed from kicks.
As Matey says, right now it's a lot wider and longer than the model shows for the kick, and even when the foot is hanging horizontal in the air it still has the same effect as if you just kicked (ghost kick).
Yes, you should as 1h be actively worried about chasing an s-keyer because they likely will be trying to kick you if you run straight at them. That should have always been obvious, but it's much worse now than it ever has been.
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I would have to agree with the OP and the thread creator.
I play with a short (81 length) weapon as my main hand weapon, and all the circumstances he spoke about have happened to me often.
Old tactics used to dodge kicks don't apply anymore, it's not enough to circle around your enemy, or run in and out quickly to get them to throw a kick because even the slightly timing mistake and you get hit.
It is especially dumb with the delayed kick portion.
I would suggestion reverting kicks back to their former, we now have nudges which are a fast and easy mini stun that can be used, kicks should be more for 1v1 or cluster fights.
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just make it so kicks are like native but without blocking. thats all it would take. right now its waaaay easier to land a kick in crpg... but you cant block. it is hard to say which is worse.
I wouldn't even say that it is easy. Kicks are REALLY misleading. The hit boxes are weird and do not seem to be where the foot is entirely. (Left and right sides of the cone) I never used kick but loved the feature. Although, they are really impossible to see since they barely touch people now with the same effect.
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yeah the delayed kick is just as annoying (or more so) than the super wide/long area of effect on the kick.
Before if you didn't connect when your foot went up, the kick was "inactive", but now even after the foot goes up for the kick, and hangs there for a second, you can still get kicked down.
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Kicking doesn't seem any more difficult to dodge to me- or to land for that matter, it's as easy as it's always been against some people (and as hard against some others).
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Kicking doesn't seem any more difficult to dodge to me- or to land for that matter, it's as easy as it's always been against some people (and as hard against some others).
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But I won't hold that against you
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Kicks go through even when you hit them, that should definitely be changed. Kicks also linger longer than their animation implies, so you can't barely dodge and counter with a short weapon while moving back in, you can only dodge and spam with a longer weapon while continuing to backpedal when you see the kick.
Other than that, I like the longer kick and slight turn, but it's just odd when you get hit by ghost hitboxes or get hit even though you hit the other guy out of the kick.
Edit: After reading the topic, realized I'm just reiterating other people's concerns. Still, pretty telling.
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I could add knockdown when getting hit during a kick.
This does not actually address the issue. How about shortening the active time of the kick? Maybe slight reduction to the AOE? I don't want some new, whacky feature, especially with knockdown effectively being nerfed once dodging is implemented. This is happening far too often: I avoid a kick, wait a moment before going in to strike, and still end up being kicked as I approach my opponent's side. That should not happen. It seems like the kick is still in effect until the foot is firmly placed back on the ground. It's way too long. Fix that. No new knockdowns. Just fix that.
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hmm i play 1h a lot on eu battle and siege and ive not really noticed it being any harder using a steel pick and/or NCS. I see many shielders doing very well on score and kdr. I do use balanced/Str shielder builds tho at 18-18 or 21-15. I guess it could be a bigger problem with less str more agi
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hmm i play 1h a lot on eu battle and siege and ive not really noticed it being any harder using a steel pick and/or NCS. I see many shielders doing very well on score and kdr. I do use balanced/Str shielder builds tho at 18-18 or 21-15. I guess it could be a bigger problem with less str more agi
I play an 18/18 build as well with a short weapon and shield. I do not have a problem with the "Balance" of things personally. I just think kicks all around are weird and need to be tuned and tweaked until they make sense. If the kick touches me, fair enough. Although, half the time that is not the case.
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2h is far superior now. Much higher damage, better reach and nearly the same speed.
1h has superior animations.
I do use balanced/Str shielder builds tho at 18-18 or 21-15. I guess it could be a bigger problem with less str more agi
I always had 5-6 ath builds as 1h, but currently made 18-24 and it's so much easier than str oriented 1h builds. All in all I'd say 1h is really stronk class, dunno what's the problem with it.
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and balanced fast knockdown weapons
ofc shield is worthless no point to talk about that
Strudog was talking about 1h without shield. :wink:
I am not saying that 2h is much better than shielder.
1h blunt weapons might be annoying, but their damage is quite low. Their extremly short length also only makes them viable if you have an agi build (low strength and power strike) or light armor. I often need 6+ hits to kill an enemy with heavy armor. Still a good weapon, but not really overpowered if you ask me...
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Kicks by nature are more effective against shorter weapons, hence that they would have a greater impact against 1h / shield characters.
If you haven't noticed that kicks are a pain in the ass as 1h (significantly moreso than before) then you aren't good at this game, or paying attention to begin with.
The only people I run into who consistently give me a problem spam kicks the entire time.
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1h has superior animations.
:lol:
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Nothing worse and more frustrating then fighting balanced/agi 2her/long axe spammer that knows how to (ab)use the current kick when you use a short 1h(especielly with shield).
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I can usually dodge the new kicks as a 1h, but with shorter 1h it pretty much forces me to sacrifice the ability to maximize my speed bonus on left swings (since the optimal path for a high speed bonus hit is predictable).
I can play 1h, but at the moment I frankly find it a lot easier to play a heavily armored, balanced build with my 'S' key glued down for half the round. So that's what I do. I'm sure I'm steadily getting worse at the game from this playstyle, but it racks in so many kills I just don't care.
figured id steal this quote from the other thread about kicking.
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I experience similar situations from the delayed kicking while using superior Japanese steel.
Dodge+swinging doesn't work with short weapons as a counter to kicking anymore, you'll get ghost kicked or glance trying to avoid it.
It isn't as effective, but when someone tries to kick you take a step back and upswing at their foot. At least you're doing damage and you can double-hit with a right swing or a stab if you use good footwork.
Another tactic is to use a chamber-kick approach, just look for the kick and when it comes spam e.
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If you haven't noticed that kicks are a pain in the ass as 1h (significantly moreso than before) then you aren't good at this game, or paying attention to begin with.
If you're good at dodging kicks, you're bad at the game, that's what you're saying? Where's the logic behind this sentence? :lol:
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I'm just posting to say that I agree. Anyone who kicks with anything longer than your one-hand always controls the fight, which makes things as boring as it is unfavorable. While the knockdown thing is cool, it would be a gimmick- not something that makes the game as dynamic as it was for one-handers pre-kick change.
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I suggest that the kick is a snap in time, if you have it on the other player at a fixed time within the kick it should land(such as right when it reaches full extention). That way there is no 1 second that you can't go near that player. Either that or make it so if a player gets hit while executing a hit, the kick is instantly stopped. It's realistic annyways.
As for 1hers, you have a shield and don't need no worry about ranged like every other class. At least nearly as much.
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1h has superior animations.
How does 1h have superior animations? Stab and rightswing glance all the time. Leftswing is good but very easy to block and overhead misses the target quite often. 1h has some of the worst animations in my opinion.
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I agree with Falka. 1h has awesome animations.
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2h animations are far superior from the game mechanic point of view.
1h animations are superior from the human factor point of view.
I mean, 2h does glance less, very fast going animations etc, but they all look the same and easy to block. 1h swings are all very different, good for different situations (left for spam, right for overreach, overhead for surprise, stab for... well, just another attack direction I guess), but with 1h you have to be very accurate with your hits, wrong attack angle and you get glance. Overall I think 1h and 2h are pretty balanced.
Now on topic - I've never had a problems with kicking with my 24-18 shielder build using NCS.
Short weapon users might experience more problems with that, but I don't really think it's a balance problem.
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If you're good at dodging kicks, you're bad at the game, that's what you're saying? Where's the logic behind this sentence? :lol:
If you didn't notice how much of an impact the new kicks have had on shielders then you are bad.
I was almost impossible to land a kick on before the patch, now people land them all the time like it's almost a magical bs attack.
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How does 1h have superior animations?
1h animations are much harder to block. When I was 2h I had hard time breaking good player's block. In order to do that I had to carry out some fancy moves and tricks (and I failed most of the time :P). As a 1h I do only basic feints, hold a swing from time to time and still it's pretty easy to land a hit.
Stab and rightswing glance all the time. Leftswing is good but very easy to block and overhead misses the target quite often. 1h has some of the worst animations in my opinion.
Meh, I don't agree with you. "overhead misses the target quite often" Ok, let's say it's true. But how 1h overheads are worse in comparison to 2h or pole? I'd say they're easiest to land becuase 1h weapons have the best turn rate (thanks to low weigtht and short length). And if you say left swing is very easy to block then which animation is hard to block according to you? Sure, people expect left swing (that's why I spam overheads), but it doesn't change it's still very fast attack. I have also no problem with stabbing (and I'm just a mediocre player, very far from being "a pro", so it can not be that hard), especially for a shielder 1h stab is very useful.
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PS: Animations are balanced.
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Meh, I don't agree with you. "overhead misses the target quite often" Ok, let's say it's true. But how 1h overheads are worse in comparison to 2h or pole? I'd say they're easiest to land becuase 1h weapons have the best turn rate (thanks to low weigtht and short length). And if you say left swing is very easy to block then which animation is hard to block according to you? Sure, people expect left swing (that's why I spam overheads), but it doesn't change it's still very fast attack. I have also no problem with stabbing (and I'm just a mediocre player, very far from being "a pro", so it can not be that hard), especially for a shielder 1h stab is very useful.
1h overheads are the hardest to land because of three factors, that actually translate into just one : the effective hitbox. When someone does a overhead, they usually move their mouse to adjust and maximise their chances of hitting. The amount of space covered by the weapon horizontally (aka its reach), the turn speed and the duration of that active state define a surface. This surface is equal to the weapon lenght squared, multiplied by the active time, multiplied by the turn speed and multiplied by a pi factor that doesn't matter. The active time multiplied by the turn speed gives you an angle (the maximal angle that your weapon will travel during its active state if you just keep on turning as fast as possible), and multiplied by the squared reach of the weapon and pi, that's a surface The critical point now, is that you want that surface to be maximal, because the larger it is, the higher the chances of the opponent being at some point present in it, the easier it gets to hit. The reason why 1h are so bad at this is : shortest lenght (which matters a hell of a lot because squared), fastest speed, and thus shortest active time. Their higher turn rates do not compensate for this (they do, but very little considering turning faster also means you have to be more precise when you turn, which only moves the problem without solving it).
Of course, this analysis doesn't take into account everything at play here but I hope it explains a little.
About the topic of this thread, I think kicks are slightly too easy to land. The most logical fix IMO is to make them shorter in effective duration. Running into someone in the middle of a french cancan doesn't magically put you out of balance.
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1h overheads are the hardest to land because of three factors, that actually translate into just one : the effective hitbox. ...
Your explanation sounds reasonable :P though on the other hand 1h overheads are hardest to block and thanks to short length really useful in clusterfuck :P
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I play a 35 1h/pole character frequently, a 29 non-heirloomed 1h/2h character sparingly, and a non-heirloomed 1h STF (as a testing/handicap character) semi-frequently. All three characters have access to shields, although I usually forgo bringing them on the latter two unless the situation demands it.
I haven't really had a problem with kicks since they were changed. Yes, they are easier to land now (which indeed has resulted in me being kicked more often than in the past) but the fact that my opponent can't block while he's kicking more than makes up for this in my book. I've found that as long as I know my opponent and know whether or not he is going to attempt to kick me, I can avoid the majority of kicks without too much trouble.
If an issue does in fact exist with 1h right now, I think it has less to do with game mechanics than with item balance.
1h weapons are currently balanced around the assumption that you will be using them with a shield, and a shield is a very powerful and useful thing to have on NA1 or EU1. It's because shields are so good that 1h weapons necessarily have lesser damage and range compared to other weapon types; if this were not the case, shielders would be too powerful.
The problem is that not all 1h pure melee players are shielders, and the ones who aren't are playing something that comes off as half-baked for anything other than duels. This is not to say that swashbuckling sucks, because it doesn't. If you are skilled and daring, you can get good results with it, but your average player is just going to feel as though he is playing a gimped 2h. Where am I going with this?
Basically, whether through the addition of new mechanics or gameplay elements or something else, I would be in favor of changes that would decouple the balance of 1h as a class of weapon from the balance of shielders--a way of making 1h weapons better without making shielders (or ranged hybrids for that matter) better. Balancing 1h weapons solely around the efficacy of shielders makes about as much sense as balancing 2h solely around the efficacy of longswords and balancing polearms solely around the efficacy of glaives.
Also, as a general aside, I'd just like to say that whoever was responsible for the dynamic turn speeds deserves a medal. It was the best feeling ever to finally be able to land good stabs with my Italian Sword again.
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Basically, whether through the addition of new mechanics or gameplay elements or something else, I would be in favor of changes that would decouple the balance of 1h as a class of weapon from the balance of shielders--a way of making 1h weapons better without making shielders (or ranged hybrids for that matter) better. Balancing 1h weapons solely around the efficacy of shielders makes about as much sense as balancing 2h solely around the efficacy of longswords and balancing polearms solely around the efficacy of glaives.
Also, as a general aside, I'd just like to say that whoever was responsible for the dynamic turn speeds deserves a medal. It was the best feeling ever to finally be able to land good stabs with my Italian Sword again.
I've said it before... but... I want them to add a nice 4 slot 1h weapon... or just some 2slot 1hs that have "cannot be used with a shield". Give em stats a bit closer to 2h and let swashbucklers have at it! I say 2 slot minimum though so that archers and xbows dont all use em as sidearms.
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1h without shield has always been a personal passion of mine. My char has a descent shieldingskill and good ammount of WPF in polearms and 1h both, just incase one class gets nerfed into oblivion while im in the middle of leveling.
I must say 1h is simply hard as fuck now. Before it was just difficult and slightly underpowered, but if you really was skilled you could handle it. Now its about as akward as showing up to a wedding in my gimpsuit. Players are giving you too much shit when you are 1h. Weaponstun, backpedal slashspamming, kickspamming, nudgespamming, instalolstabbing.......Oh god.
But then again, when I look at the native stats, it appears to me that 1h was ment to be more of a supportweapon anyway. Like more of a sidearm than an acctual primary weapon. C-rpg did this class more justice than it ever had to begin with and I am thankful for that.
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when 1h beats 2h it is because of skill
when 2h beats 1h it is because 2h is op, 1h is up kicks bad animations ect ect ect
all the time everyone complain how 1h is worse at everything that 2h, it is slower shorter
lower damange, just everything
no one says a word about shield, to be honest who need a shield, it dosent block multiple atacks directions arrows lances, jsut nothing of that
but hey it slowes you down and makes you attacks slower to!!!! WTF SERIOUSLY
just look at attack directions
left swing who cares it is fastest atack in the game it is so short omg omg I can't play anymore
overhead can't make it faster(unlike with other weapons, like longbow)
who care it looks slower than it hits or you can mistake it wit left swing,
90% of players still cant block it without shield, never hits the ground(maybe with some longer 1h swords) and you make 180 with that, pff useless shit
right swing is just utter bullshit, slowe omg omg,
slowe galnce and only outreach all other weapons and atack wit same lenght weapon or maybe even a bit more, who needs that
stab.... is the best atack that 1h have, but i dont want play hOPlite with sword QQ
1h wit xbow suck because there is mace and military hamer that is not op 2h and 1h are up.
1h suck
ect ect
l2p factor dosen't matter because it is not skill based game... oh wait, hmmm
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Kicking is sorta like a lolstab.
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when 1h beats 2h it is because of skill
when 2h beats 1h it is because 2h is op, 1h is up kicks bad animations ect ect ect
all the time everyone complain how 1h is worse at everything that 2h, it is slower shorter
lower damange, just everything
no one says a word about shield, to be honest who need a shield, it dosent block multiple atacks directions arrows lances, jsut nothing of that
but hey it slowes you down and makes you attacks slower to!!!! WTF SERIOUSLY
just look at attack directions
left swing who cares it is fastest atack in the game it is so short omg omg I can't play anymore
overhead can't make it faster(unlike with other weapons, like longbow)
who care it looks slower than it hits or you can mistake it wit left swing,
90% of players still cant block it without shield, never hits the ground(maybe with some longer 1h swords) and you make 180 with that, pff useless shit
right swing is just utter bullshit, slowe omg omg,
slowe galnce and only outreach all other weapons and atack wit same lenght weapon or maybe even a bit more, who needs that
stab.... is the best atack that 1h have, but i dont want play hOPlite with sword QQ
1h wit xbow suck because there is mace and military hamer that is not op 2h and 1h are up.
1h suck
ect ect
l2p factor dosen't matter because it is not skill based game... oh wait, hmmm
Hurr durr Bobby :P
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I could add knockdown when getting hit during a kick.
you could also just nerf the silly cone the kicks have, no skill, blocking while being able to kick was better than this shit
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I can't nerf kick cone. The changes are evil cmpcraft with WSE. Annoy cmp for changes to kicking. Good luck, but remember Panos.
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What makes WSE difficult for anyone but cmp to work with?
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cmp
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What makes WSE difficult for anyone but cmp to work with?
He is the one who made it, understands it and he is the only one who can change it. The rest of the devs including chadz can only work with the Module System which is practically a level down. We run into hardcoded walls all the time which only cmp could theoretically break with WSE. For this mod it's a bit sad that he is currently so busy with Melee development because he wields the true power of change that puts cRPG's potential above all other Warband mods.
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Oh, okay. I believed it was similar to some sort of tool that helped other modders have more control over the game, or something like that, kind of like what an api tries to do.
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Change 1h stab to 2h stab!
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The animations are okay overall imo.
The issue is 2h weapons are so much faster, longer, and harder hitting that 1h weapons that it makes the "omni" block capabilities of a shield rather useless.
Manual blocking isn't really that hard, times where a manual block failed would usually also have failed witha shield also because it has more to do with poor timing then picking the right block direction.
If anything 2h and polearms across the board need a speed reduction. (This might be addressed with the new wpf formula)
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The kick's length did not need to be increased, but the real problem is the area of effect - its a wider area of effect than an overhead. If you can't aim a kick properly it shouldn't allow you to kick anyone in the general vicinity with a 180 degree arc of coverage. It removes the skill from kicking and makes it over-used instead of being used for specialized purposes in fights. As someone who likes the w key and short weapons I can tell you its gotten pretty lame where you cant even approach someone from any angle other than behind them if they hit kick they will get a free hit, s-key heroes already have it easy - they don't need this too.
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l2play kesh
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DOWN WITH KICKS