cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Jeric on June 24, 2013, 09:02:00 pm

Title: A buff for agility
Post by: Jeric on June 24, 2013, 09:02:00 pm
Sorry if this has been suggested before.

It is pretty obvious that strength is better than agility. Someone who threw every point into strength, powerstrike and ironflesh will likely be found in the middle if not the top of the leaderboards. Someone who threw every point into agility, weapons master and athletics will likely be found near the bottom of the leaderboard. I'd like to see the native feature restored where putting a point into agility will grant you bonus weapon proficiency points. That is all, thank you for reading.
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: Macropus on June 24, 2013, 09:11:53 pm
I agree str is more effective, specifically in duels and in strat battles where everyone's using heavy armour.
However, agi-based builds will be more and more effective in future as it helps to break through enemy's block barrier easier, the better players become at blocking - the more effective agi builds become.
Small buff would be nice though.
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: Malaclypse on June 24, 2013, 09:13:22 pm
A passive buff to Agi like that would be perfect and would help to bring it in line with Str passives (HP, weapon/armor use, damage).
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: Panos on June 24, 2013, 09:20:25 pm
Yes please, we need more spam
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: Mlekce on June 24, 2013, 09:21:52 pm
Str more viable then agi? Are we talking about crpg or some other game?
Spamming does not need any buff.
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: Macropus on June 24, 2013, 09:33:42 pm
Str more viable then agi? Are we talking about crpg or some other game?
Spamming does not need any buff.
Spamming doesn't have anything to do with agi.
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: Panos on June 24, 2013, 09:36:21 pm
Spamming doesn't have anything to do with agi.

Spamming, is when you do 2 constant hits, meaning

YOU HIT ME ONCE, I BLOCK, I TRY TO SWING, YOU SWING WITHOUT BLOCKING AND YOU HIT ME.

thats spamming, LEARN IT.
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: Macropus on June 24, 2013, 10:01:22 pm
Spamming, is when you do 2 constant hits, meaning

YOU HIT ME ONCE, I BLOCK, MY FOOTWORK AND TIMING SUCK, I TRY TO SWING, YOU SWING WITHOUT BLOCKING AND YOU HIT ME.

thats spamming, LEARN IT.
Fixed to be more accurate)
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: Tzar on June 24, 2013, 10:21:08 pm
Don´t see how tbh...

Why dont u guys learn to do balanced builds instead of goin overkill on str or agi...
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: Legs on June 24, 2013, 10:32:14 pm
The strength passive is equivalent to 1/2 point of iron flesh.

Why not give agility an equivalent passive of 1/2 point of weapon master or athletics?

Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: Panos on June 24, 2013, 10:33:04 pm
Fixed to be more accurate)

Footwork has nothing to do with swing speed, it only affects speed bonus damage..

Ninja, please..
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: Jeric on June 24, 2013, 10:50:11 pm
Don´t see how tbh...

Why dont u guys learn to do balanced builds instead of goin overkill on str or agi...

cRPG is losing diversity in its builds. Ask any player what their build is, and you'll typically find strength much higher than agility (24/15, 21/18, etc). This makes for (in my opinion) static and boring gameplay. We need more unique builds that are actually viable, else before long every player will be a 24/15 longsword backpeddler.
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: Grumbs on June 24, 2013, 11:00:33 pm
Agi doesn't need a buff, you just need to put some points into str. This is a fighting game, not racing game. You have to be able to hit and do some damage so why shouldn't you have some strength? You can use nearly the heaviest armour with just 15 str and still run rings around people with lighter gear. If anything armour needs a higher str requirement and possibly 3 agi chars should have more downsides like slower swing speed
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: Algarn on June 24, 2013, 11:11:30 pm
Agi doesn't need a buff, you just need to put some points into str. This is a fighting game, not racing game. You have to be able to hit and do some damage so why shouldn't you have some strength? You can use nearly the heaviest armour with just 15 str and still run rings around people with lighter gear. If anything armour needs a higher str requirement and possibly 3 agi chars should have more downsides like slower swing speed

Phase has 15 str , 24 agi , he kills everyone , he's fast , and he hit very hard because of his speed. No, agi and strengh are quite balanced if you know how play with your build.

Str = stronk , hit very hard with like 24/27 , may not be too slow with 12 agi at least
Agi = fast , but no HP , a lot of WM and speed which help you to do high damages.

each thing has its qualities and defaults , deal with it , in the life , you have to make choices . Don't complain about agi is too weak .
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: Kafein on June 24, 2013, 11:13:47 pm
Yes please, we need more spam

Str more viable then agi? Are we talking about crpg or some other game?
Spamming does not need any buff.

Stuck in 2010 or something, believing agi is more important than str for spamming. You can chain two attacks in a row with any weapon and any build. The difference being, you can fail to acheive that without any penalty a lot of times when you stack strength, armor and IF, and need less hits to kill too. With an agi build, you swing marginally faster.
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: Strudog on June 25, 2013, 09:44:11 am
Yes we need to buff those 2 hitting Katana my old friends who only have 9 strength and 3 PS, Agi builds deal a lot of damage and are better than STR builds if you know how to play it
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: Mlekce on June 25, 2013, 11:41:10 am
Stuck in 2010 or something, believing agi is more important than str for spamming. You can chain two attacks in a row with any weapon and any build. The difference being, you can fail to acheive that without any penalty a lot of times when you stack strength, armor and IF, and need less hits to kill too. With an agi build, you swing marginally faster.

You cant do a 2 chained attacks vs glaive,mioadao,longsword,heavy bastard sword,broad short sword,side sword,liuyavedao,ashwood pike,war spear.
With katana you can infinite spam without any need of blocking once,good thing is that most of the ninjas are shit,but those who are good could infinite spam.
3 agi points are equal to 1 athl, 1 str for 1 hp is just meh. not worth it
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on June 25, 2013, 01:08:17 pm
You cant do a 2 chained attacks vs glaive,mioadao,longsword,heavy bastard sword,broad short sword,side sword,liuyavedao,ashwood pike,war spear.
With katana you can infinite spam without any need of blocking once,good thing is that most of the ninjas are shit,but those who are good could infinite spam.

3 agi points are equal to 1 athl, 1 str for 1 hp is just meh. not worth it

How do you reconcile that your post is mathematically nonsensical? #ReplyLikePaulDay

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on June 25, 2013, 04:30:50 pm
Kind of late in c-rpg tweaking to do anything about it, but agility is weaker than strength.  They should have removed the free WPF gain, or scaled Weapon master differently than they currently do, but it's far too late to start tweaking stuff like that (unless they want to give out free respecs, which they don't). 

Tydeus and some other players had come up with solutions a long time ago to make agility give more passive bonuses (like strength does), and to even the builds out a little bit.  There were these same discussions a year or a year and a half ago, but I'm far too lazy to search the forums (but you are free to go ahead and do so and bump them, because there were a lot of good suggestions). 

You are better off (at least as infantry) stacking more strength than agility.  I think the EU people tend to have more balanced or agility based builds, so that's why you see a lot of them disagreeing and complaining about 180 wpf 27 agility katana users and thinking "god I don't want them to swing or move any faster"
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: Gurnisson on June 25, 2013, 04:44:57 pm
Balanced builds are the best, leaning towards agility. While a 36/3 is miles better than a 3/36 build, 18/21 and 18/24 builds are better than 24/18 and 21/18 builds. The damage gained from strength is sub-par, because you grab that with speed bonus through the agility route as well. Choose strength for survivability and not to rage at archers, otherwise go balanced builds leaning towards agility. Some free wpf for agility wouldn't break anything, probably, but it's not really needed.
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on June 25, 2013, 05:23:09 pm
That's where most EU and NA people disagree Gurnisson.  I think 27/12, 24/15 or 21/18 is way better than 12/27, 15/24 or 18/21 for 2h, polearm or 1h/shield.  6 powerstrike is pretty bad with a 1h, but is doable with 2h or polearm, anything less than 6 powerstrike and you're a glutton for punishment.
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: Corsair831 on June 25, 2013, 05:26:15 pm
Yes please, we need more spam

in my experience, str builds spam more than agi builds, because they do more damage, and usually have more hp / armour, meaning there is less risk to them spamming

if an agi build fails his spam he usually dies, if an str build fails, he usually gets 12 more attempts at it


(case and point ivani4 :P /jk)

edit: also, i use a 15/24 1h shield polearm with a sidesword and i have no problem killing tincans(one on one, if you have to fight two tincans you're screwed), even with 32 cut, it's just about abusing your speed bonus
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: Ronin on June 25, 2013, 05:36:18 pm
Mobility over strength, you'll learn it over time.
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on June 25, 2013, 05:52:07 pm
Mobility over strength, you'll learn it over time.

Sure if you're trying to be rambo.  In a group setting, strength is going to be far superior.  If you have a group of 7-10 "strength" heavy players (27/12 or 24/15) they're going to methodically mop up the enemy team.  Seen it happen time and time again. 

But then again, this is the main difference between EU and NA.  I don't expect anyone to have a "see the light" moment
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: Strudog on June 25, 2013, 06:09:35 pm
That's where most EU and NA people disagree Gurnisson.  I think 27/12, 24/15 or 21/18 is way better than 12/27, 15/24 or 18/21 for 2h, polearm or 1h/shield.  6 powerstrike is pretty bad with a 1h, but is doable with 2h or polearm, anything less than 6 powerstrike and you're a glutton for punishment.

just respecced to 18/24 1 hander no shield, best build i have tried, 6 PS is enough for a 1h and 8 Athl is ridiculously fast.
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on June 25, 2013, 06:26:28 pm
What kind of 1h you using?  If it's a sword, what kind of sword?  6 powerstrike is pretty bad with a 1h sword that is unloomed.  6 powerstrike with a 34c weapon (like my MW knightly arming sword) would seem to do about the same damage as 7 power strike with 31c (unloomed). 

Most of my builds were 6 powerstrike using a 1h sword (when I was dismounted), and it was pretty painful.  It was certainly playable, but not nearly as good as 7 or 8 powerstrike (made a huge difference between 6 and 7 ps).  There's really no reason to need 8 athletics on the battle server unless you're trying to be rambo. 
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: Strudog on June 25, 2013, 07:14:34 pm
What kind of 1h you using?  If it's a sword, what kind of sword?  6 powerstrike is pretty bad with a 1h sword that is unloomed.  6 powerstrike with a 34c weapon (like my MW knightly arming sword) would seem to do about the same damage as 7 power strike with 31c (unloomed). 

Most of my builds were 6 powerstrike using a 1h sword (when I was dismounted), and it was pretty painful.  It was certainly playable, but not nearly as good as 7 or 8 powerstrike (made a huge difference between 6 and 7 ps).  There's really no reason to need 8 athletics on the battle server unless you're trying to be rambo. 

Scimitar and Spathovaklion both +3 are amazing 1h weapons
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: Ronin on June 25, 2013, 07:19:53 pm
Sure if you're trying to be rambo.  In a group setting, strength is going to be far superior.  If you have a group of 7-10 "strength" heavy players (27/12 or 24/15) they're going to methodically mop up the enemy team.  Seen it happen time and time again. 

But then again, this is the main difference between EU and NA.  I don't expect anyone to have a "see the light" moment
Nah not only for ramboing, it's also good in crowdfights too. Better positioning is just golden for me. I tried many builds and I think agility is way more superior than strength if you know how to use it. That is my opinion only though, but agility is definitely not weak.

I don't only mean movement speed (athletics and riding) by the way. Weapon master and shield are also underrated skills if you ask me. And they fit in the description of mobility in the way I see the word.
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: sF_Guardian on June 25, 2013, 07:36:31 pm
Agi and str seem pretty balanced to me and agi has nothing to do with spam.
After all strenght stacking is still way more powerful than agility stacking.
Smal buff would do fine IMO but it is not necessarily needed.
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: El_Infante on June 25, 2013, 08:05:09 pm
A buff for agility is a buff for strength builds, because no one plays 30/0.
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: Bulzur on June 25, 2013, 08:07:39 pm
A buff for agility is a buff for strength builds, because no one plays 30/0.

Obviously, since we all start with 3/3.
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: Phew on June 25, 2013, 08:37:53 pm
Strength gets two passive bonuses: HPs and weapon damage.
Agility gets one passive bonus: run speed.

Give agility a second passive bonus (wpf points), combined with removing "free" wpf from leveling.
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: El_Infante on June 25, 2013, 09:58:58 pm
Obviously, since we all start with 3/3.

Obviously and we end at 9/12/15/18, so every buff to agi buff STR. I think is not too hard to understand.
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: Macropus on June 26, 2013, 01:52:08 pm
Obviously and we end at 9/12/15/18, so every buff to agi buff STR. I think is not too hard to understand.
Understanding that agi buff would affect agi-builds more than str-builds isn't that hard either.
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: Necrorave on June 26, 2013, 03:41:27 pm
I don't see a need to buff agility.  Although, a cool idea for a passive would be nice.  (Still not needed though)

  Maybe something that just lowers the damage from falls, or lets you fall farther without taking damage?


Just an idea.  I do not think it is needed.  (I usually play a balanced 18/18 build)
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: Gravoth_iii on June 26, 2013, 10:01:28 pm
Indeed something like fall damage reduced per agi would be a good buff while not really changing much as far as combat goes.
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: El_Infante on June 26, 2013, 11:05:45 pm
Understanding that agi buff would affect agi-builds more than str-builds isn't that hard either.

Understanding that if people is constantly whining about STR stack, give STR builds another advantage and prepare yourself for the whining forum shitstorm. The buff that agi need, as we said around 1k times on forums is giving no WPF free points when leveling up.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: Smoothrich on June 27, 2013, 12:22:58 am
Athletics is more important than Powerstrike for killstealing positioning, which often leads to much higher KDs, unless its a box/chokepoint/siege map

I wrecked people in Strat as a 27/15 2hander regardless of situations, but do waay better with my current 21/21 build on Battle or more open Strat maps since my positioning ability is so much better, easier to dart around the battlefield "supporting" little fights or flanking people (to killsteal).

I wouldn't do 18/24 or up though as a 2hander (I would as polearm) cuz I tend to absorb a lot of damage, or do stupid things like charge full speed into pikes (where Athletics speed bonus is a pain).

Those builds are ideal for long polearm users though.. they depend on positioning the most, and do nothing but stupidly high swing cut or massive poke pierce.

2handers is more optional since most weapons are mid-range cut damage, but anything under 6 athletics is pretty boring garbage.

1handers are SO much better with ~21 agility and blunt type weapons, its one of the most OP classes in cRPG right now.  Sprint around spamming knockdown and nudge with 7-8 athletics and super high damage blunt maces or hammers. Its a wonder this doesn't catch on in NA more, but its because most people are bad
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: woody on June 27, 2013, 11:27:22 am
Strength build is prevalent in strat because:

Fighting in line less manoeverability
Heavier armour worn so more strength needed to break through and to carry
More damage can be taken after armour penetrated

This means:

Warband is an attempted simulation. All the above would be true in a battle line. Simulation works, no needed to amend. About as sensible as saying ban all boxers/rugby players/american footballers over 80 kilos because they are "strength crutching"

Same applies to how annoyingly effective pikes/spears are. Might be why for medieval armies in GENERAL spear was main weapon of infantry
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: Phew on June 27, 2013, 02:40:36 pm
Spamming doesn't have anything to do with agi.

QFT. The best way to land double hits with a Longsword or similar is to have so much power strike that you won't glance at any point in the animation. Since strength players know they won't glance, they can force their swings to connect much earlier than agility players, who must wait for the swing to enter its sweet spot.

Thus, if "spamming" is your goal, strength is more helpful than agility.
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: Torben on June 27, 2013, 02:46:30 pm
QFT. The best way to land double hits with a Longsword or similar is to have so much power strike that you won't glance at any point in the animation. Since strength players know they won't glance, they can force their swings to connect much earlier than agility players, who must wait for the swing to enter its sweet spot.

Thus, if "spamming" is your goal, strength is more helpful than agility.

although the footwork of agi char makes up for that and again lets you spam well too
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: Phew on June 27, 2013, 03:30:02 pm
although the footwork of agi char makes up for that and again lets you spam well too

Agility doesn't affect turn rates, which is what matters most for landing early hits/crazy lolstabs. Athletics does help steer overheads though.
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: Jeric on July 12, 2013, 02:15:03 am
A passive buff to Agi like that would be perfect and would help to bring it in line with Str passives (HP, weapon/armor use, damage).

Why does my original post have +0 but the guy agreeing with me has +7? You think I make these suggestions for improvement to the game? Give me my renown you infamous bastards

1handers are SO much better with ~21 agility and blunt type weapons, its one of the most OP classes in cRPG right now.  Sprint around spamming knockdown and nudge with 7-8 athletics and super high damage blunt maces or hammers. Its a wonder this doesn't catch on in NA more, but its because most people are bad

21 agility, 1hander, super high damage? Is this a level 36 character with a +3 warhammer?

Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: Vodner on July 12, 2013, 02:58:48 am
Agility doesn't affect turn rates, which is what matters most for landing early hits/crazy lolstabs.
Agility can help quite a lot with a castor. Castoring involves 'running away' from the sideswing of your opponent to delay the return strike, and having high acceleration helps a fair bit with that. Strength does get the benefit of doing decent damage on hits with high sweetspot penalties, and also can survive a foiled castor attempt better.
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: Paul on July 12, 2013, 06:33:49 am
So then  "inverse castoring" is circling into the sideswing of an opponent to snatch enough angle to make him bounce? I thought I had the monopoly on making up stupid names for stuff.
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: Vodner on July 12, 2013, 07:20:40 am
So then  "inverse castoring" is circling into the sideswing of an opponent to snatch enough angle to make him bounce? I thought I had the monopoly on making up stupid names for stuff.
Castor was just the first notable player to do it on the NA side of things (a few years ago now - it was before I started playing cRPG), so the name stuck.
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: San on July 12, 2013, 08:01:23 am
Even if you give guys more wpf from agility, a lot is just going to get wasted on armor reduction, and they won't notice any difference except for the few that choose to dress below the armor cap. More wpf from agility also weakens WM, since you'll have enough with 0WM and will sacrifice it for more athletics and agility.

I think wpf reduction from armor should be a linear reduction instead of a %-based reduction. Even in light-medium armor, the wpf reduction of a guy with 160 wpf is more than a 111 wpf strength build in plate, which is pretty ridiculous. This solution is build-neutral, does not increase the wpf cap, and is easy to implement (no respecs required) if one can alter such data.

An extra WM point gives ~9 extra wpf. If 3-4 extra points are getting lost each time due to % based reduction, that just dilutes the skill, especially when the differences in wpf is not that great if you are melee in one weapon type. -30 on an agi build would be -30 to a strength build with the same armor.
Title: Re: A buff for agility
Post by: RandomDude on July 12, 2013, 02:13:17 pm
Id just like to say that any weapon is spammable in the right circumstances and when ive duelled with a ninja on siege, they cant constant spam me even though im using flamberge.

The 1h steel picks are easier to spam me with than katana's. I always block twice before I attack vs 1h/shield if they're doing their fast swing because I wont be able to get an attack off in time until after the second block.


Nvm its pretty useless for this thread sry