cRPG
cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ronald_Meliossandro on June 23, 2013, 12:11:03 am
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I'll bring up one thing that makes me both sad and irritated!
Stakes are allowed into EU2 but some players makes own rules by destroying their own players' stakes .... this makes me annoyed!!
The sad party is that the player / players who do that I really like but I dont accept they braking the rules and then call me stupied troll.....I dont brake any rules but you do!!!!... and I dont spam stakes ... only 1 - 2 ... if its alot of stakes I dont bring them out ...... and YES SOME PEOPLE ARE SPAMMING THE STAKES .... but not me.
So maby we should have some voting for this???????
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QuaQ
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what is this EU2 u speak of?
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Devs should get rid of them in siege.
Yes, i destroy every stake in sight because they do not fucking belong in this game mode. Either people throw them at the top of ladders to completely block attackers for more than 30 seconds because they build up in a very weird way, or they are placed so horribly that attackers are allowed to jump down on them without losing health from places where you usually die when you jump down (And for a good reason, because it fucks up the balance), or people just throw them into fights completely blocking off defenders that have to fall back basically teamkilling them. Doesn't even have to be while fighting, just when you have to back off as defenders because you are being pushed very hard by attackers BOOM you are trapped in stakes that some idiot "wisely" placed there.
As hard as i try to remember a place where those stakes were actually useful for the defenders, i can't think of many. Well, maybe one or two do come to my mind. There are maps where cavalry can enter the castle from backdoors and just get in there and kill. Those are actually useful for the defense, but tbh there are like 2 or 3 castles where this is a problem and it's usually not the biggest deal.
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Yes, i destroy every stake in sight because they do not fucking belong in this game mode.
You do realize that just because you think that doesn't give you the right to grief your own team? Stakes can be useful and you can use them on siege, so anyone who want to use them is allowed to. You are NOT allowed to just indisciminately destroy them because you feel they don't belong on siege.
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stakes are made to be anti cav, rarely cav on siege, remove stakes plz because they are indeed being put down by airheads.
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You do realize that just because you think that doesn't give you the right to grief your own team? Stakes can be useful and you can use them on siege, so anyone who want to use them is allowed to. You are NOT allowed to just indisciminately destroy them because you feel they don't belong on siege.
He doesn't just "feel", he actually gave good reasons for the stakes to be unfitting in siege (e.g jumping on stakes as shortcut, worse than griefing imo). Instead of seeing everything in the eyes of an admin who takes the official rules for sacred, you could also make some forwardthinking and make a good point for the removal of stakes in siege, which is useful and improves the mod.
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You do realize that just because you think that doesn't give you the right to grief your own team? Stakes can be useful and you can use them on siege, so anyone who want to use them is allowed to. You are NOT allowed to just indisciminately destroy them because you feel they don't belong on siege.
Is it griefing to destroy teammate's stakes that are misplaced or that arent useful at all? If they block a path or are just used to troll they should be destroyed obviously. It's not like Fips said he was going to destroy any kind of stakes that were placed.
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It's not like Fips said he was going to destroy any kind of stakes that were placed.
Yes, i destroy every stake in sight because they do not fucking belong in this game mode.
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Is it griefing to destroy teammate's stakes that are misplaced or that arent useful at all? If they block a path or are just used to troll they should be destroyed obviously. It's not like Fips said he was going to destroy any kind of stakes that were placed.
Nope it is not griefing to destroy idiotically placed stakes. Blocking a path is perfectly valid use of stakes, and yes he did: "Yes, i destroy every stake in sight because they do not fucking belong in this game mode."
He doesn't just "feel", he actually gave good reasons for the stakes to be unfitting in siege (e.g jumping on stakes as shortcut, worse than griefing imo). Instead of seeing everything in the eyes of an admin who takes the official rules for sacred, you could also make some forwardthinking and make a good point for the removal of stakes in siege, which is useful and improves the mod.
Same can be said about siege shields and construction sites (albeit to a lesser extent because of the slots). Also I don't think removing things is useful or improves the mod, a perfect example being ladders. The devs, instead of trying to improve on ladders to fix the problems with them, just said fuck it and removed them completely from any game mode besides strat. Worst decisions they ever made imo.
In the case of stakes there are a few simple things that would improve them massively: Make them a bit weaker, make them damage any idiot that decides to jump on them, make it so that you can't stack em on top of each other and maybe some kind of collision detection, that if the stakes get planted half in a building they get destroyed automatically.
In any case, I'm an admin, not a dev, my job is not improving the mod, it is enforcing the rules and making sure people don't ruin other people's fun.
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I extremely rarely see any well placed stakes. The only spot where they should be is at the outer gate where no defender should go through.
People often think that they put up stakes well because they block the attackers to get to eg the gate mechanism. But they are too idiotic to understand that once a attacker manages to pass the stakes, no defender is able to reach him in time.
I agree that destroying well placed stakes should not be allowed, but the problem is that they are never well placed. The person that put them up is just too retarded to understand that and starts claiming people are griefing him.
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99% of siege rounds are lost because defenders don't reach the flag in time and/or because attackers stopped attacking as a stream but rather as a group. Placing stakes as defender can only make things worse.
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You do realize that just because you think that doesn't give you the right to grief your own team? Stakes can be useful and you can use them on siege, so anyone who want to use them is allowed to. You are NOT allowed to just indisciminately destroy them because you feel they don't belong on siege.
Ah c'mon, if you read the whole post you would have seen that some of them are indeed useful, those i do not destroy. That first sentence was a little exaggeration, because 95% of them are utterly useless and deserve to be destroyed. So yeah, it's basically all of them.
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I still believe the best scenario would be limiting the number of deployed "ladders/mats" at the same time. Instead of completely removing them, or simply letting be abused like this.
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I am allowed to kill a teammate who destroys my stakes? I mean, only a traitor would sabotage the defence to help the attackers. (plus i have to pay upkeep for the few pointy, wooden sticks.)
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Yes, i destroy every stake in sight because they do not fucking belong in this game mode.
COCK IN ASS!
BAN
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You do realize that just because you think that doesn't give you the right to grief your own team? Stakes can be useful and you can use them on siege, so anyone who want to use them is allowed to. You are NOT allowed to just indisciminately destroy them because you feel they don't belong on siege.
If they're boxing me in from being able to retreat, I'm going to break the shit out of them.
Best baleedat
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Stakes are 100% used to grief either the own team or the opposing team. Since they were added only as a means to fight of cavalry, which doesnt exist on siege.
They only add fun for the player who threw them on the ground.
For everyone else they are just shit, its like the Construction site spam or the ladder spam all over again.
Since the devs doesnt do anything about it, the community have taken matters into its own hands.
If you want to be a part of that community, follow the unwritten rules.
I lost all patience regarding stakes the first week they were added, now its just triggers rage to still see them in the game and placed on the ground.
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Since there's no way to distinguish between enemy an ally stakes, I always assume any stakes I see is from the enemy, and I destroy it for that reason.
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Since there's no way to distinguish between enemy an ally stakes, I always assume any stakes I see is from the enemy, and I destroy it for that reason.
Oh snap, why didn't i think of that first xD
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Since they were added only as a means to fight of cavalry, which doesnt exist on siege.
This seems to be one of the core arguments from all the anti stake people, that they're only supposed to be used against cavalry. Breaking news people: They block infantry as well! Their main function might be as anti cav items, but they're also useful as infantry barricades.
I lost all patience regarding stakes the first week they were added, now its just triggers rage to still see them in the game and placed on the ground.
And I lost all patience with any form of horse ranged a long time ago as well, that doesn't mean they aren't allowed to play their class. Just like HRE's irrational hatred of stakes does not justify destroying them whenever they see em.
I still believe the best scenario would be limiting the number of deployed "ladders/mats" at the same time. Instead of completely removing them, or simply letting be abused like this.
There is already a limit as far as I know, it's just way way to high for normal game modes and only relevant in strat battles.
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Just like HRE's irrational hatred of stakes
well i think as a clan that plays alot of siege its quite normal to already have discussed the use of stakes as its very easy to notice how they often fuck you up as defender while you never actually notice stakes stopping you as attacker. When you are attacker and you see stakes blocking off the gatehouse, you can just laugh internally because you know you are going to win.
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And I lost all patience with any form of horse ranged a long time ago as well, that doesn't mean they aren't allowed to play their class. Just like HRE's irrational hatred of stakes does not justify destroying them whenever they see em.
It's not irrational hatred, not at all. And the reason why i (i am not speaking for the whole HRE, so please only blame me or the other guys posting here) destroy them in the first place is simple. They have a very high probability of being a object of grief for me. And i already stated the reasons why the people placing them are indeed griefing their own team, although many people don't see that and do it unintentionally. And usually when i tell those people why i just destroyed their stakes most of them actually get it why it's not good to place them wherever they placed them.
So why shouldn't i be allowed to get rid of them if there is a very good chance that they will fuck me or my teammates up?
I've seen so many defenders getting stuck in the stakes of their own teammates that i feel the need to destroy them just for the teams sake.
Oh, and for the blocking of infantry. Guess what: It involves all the infrantry, not only enemies =P
If some peasant decides to place stakes right infront of the way to the flag blocking every goddamn defender trying to back off to the flag area and getting them killed and then dying by 1hit losing the flag you tell me how that's not griefing.
Siege is not like battle where you can camp the whole round in your stake-fortress, you need to be able to move forward and backwards in the already very small gateways/houses/streets/whatever, and stakes deny that almost 100 percent of the time they are used.
Edit: Also, i'd like to remind you that i am only talking about bad placed stakes. As i already said they are a very very rare exception, though. That's why they should be just removed.
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I can halve stakes hp on siege.
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you should really just remove them for good
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i am not speaking for the whole HRE, so please only blame me or the other guys posting here
Yes, you're right, it was unfair to blame all of HRE, you guys just have a lot of members who are very prolific in their hatred of stakes and I've had to warn HRE members before for needlessly destroying their own teams stakes.
Edit: Also, i'd like to remind you that i am only talking about bad placed stakes. As i already said they are a very very rare exception, though. That's why they should be just removed.
I disagree, there are plenty of opportunities to use stakes properly. You mentioned one earlier:
people throw them at the top of ladders to completely block attackers for more than 30 seconds because they build up in a very weird way
Yes, it's stupid planting stakes into solid stone, yes, it's stupid the way they build up and stick through solid objects. It's still a legimate use of stakes that in no way harms the defenders.
A lot of times stakes are very situational, where planting them in the same spot on the map can either win or lose the round, that's just the nature of fortifications: They benefit whoever is on the right side of them.
Removing stakes (or construction sites, or ladders) just feels like going backwards to me. They add a very interesting dynamic element to an otherwise static map. Do they have problems, yes, but just removing them, instead of improving them is ridiculous.
All of that is rather besides the point though, the main point I've been trying to make clear throughout this thread is that so long as something is ingame and useable, nobody has the right to deny anyone from using them.
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HRE, you should build some sort of camp where you can take all the stakes all around the world and then gas them, yes even the stake-puppies.
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The devs, instead of trying to improve on ladders to fix the problems with them, just said fuck it and removed them completely from any game mode besides strat. Worst decisions they ever made imo.
Yes, because the devs have such a good record of being able to quickly fix problems that arise with new mechanics. Ladders ruined both battle and siege, never forget.
Stakes on siege are a knavery, you can troll so hard with them. Doing a fighting retreat? Hah, let me place some stakes behind you. Besides, usually siege maps have been designed to be balanced because of properly timed routes for both teams. Stake spam can upset this balance extensively, and not in a good way. Defenders always have to move in two directions, defenders are trying to get to the flag as much as attackers, stakes are rarely just annoying for one team. It's not like stakes add an interesting layer to gameplay, just a nuisance. I ask you, what are the pro's of having stakes on siege?
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Since there's no way to distinguish between enemy an ally stakes, I always assume any stakes I see is from the enemy, and I destroy it for that reason.
Damnit, I was gonna say that!
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Yes, you're right, it was unfair to blame all of HRE, you guys just have a lot of members who are very prolific in their hatred of stakes and I've had to warn HRE members before for needlessly destroying their own teams stakes.
I disagree, there are plenty of opportunities to use stakes properly. You mentioned one earlier:
Yes, it's stupid planting stakes into solid stone, yes, it's stupid the way they build up and stick through solid objects. It's still a legimate use of stakes that in no way harms the defenders.
A lot of times stakes are very situational, where planting them in the same spot on the map can either win or lose the round, that's just the nature of fortifications: They benefit whoever is on the right side of them.
Removing stakes (or construction sites, or ladders) just feels like going backwards to me. They add a very interesting dynamic element to an otherwise static map. Do they have problems, yes, but just removing them, instead of improving them is ridiculous.
All of that is rather besides the point though, the main point I've been trying to make clear throughout this thread is that so long as something is ingame and useable, nobody has the right to deny anyone from using them.
I'm not denying anybody from using them, i'm just destroying the ones that could screw things over real good for my team. Not my fault that almost every single one is poorly placed. And placing them on top of ladders is just ridiculous, it may keep the attackers away for a little bit of time and yes, in that case they are actually useful, but that doesn't add anything good for the game-mode.
Also, teeth mentioned map balance. Spawns in siege always spawn you away from enemies. So, let's say 2 or 3 guys made it through them with jumping or just coming in from behind. So now, defense stops spawning next to flag and let's you spawn away from it. Now those stupid stakes fucked you real hard, because it can be quite complicated to jump over them and destroying them is an eternity with the new flag-systems. And i think i played enough siege to say that this kind of crap happens a LOT.
The only way i could see stakes actually improving siege is that the map-makers are able to set them and they reset each round. Now he can decide what's best for the balance on this map without screwing it up for one of the teams.
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I'm not denying anybody from using them, i'm just destroying the ones that could screw things over real good for my team. Not my fault that almost every single one is poorly placed.
You're exaggerating. Most are placed just fine, just because they're an inconvenience to you does not mean they're bad for the team.
And placing them on top of ladders is just ridiculous, it may keep the attackers away for a little bit of time and yes, in that case they are actually useful, but that doesn't add anything good for the game-mode.
That's your opinion. Other people do not share it and it certainly doesn't justify destroying them.
Also, teeth mentioned map balance. Spawns in siege always spawn you away from enemies. So, let's say 2 or 3 guys made it through them with jumping or just coming in from behind. So now, defense stops spawning next to flag and let's you spawn away from it. Now those stupid stakes fucked you real hard, because it can be quite complicated to jump over them and destroying them is an eternity with the new flag-systems. And i think i played enough siege to say that this kind of crap happens a LOT.
Yes, stakes upset balance, that's the whole point, if used correctly they swing the balance in favour of who ever placed them, if they didn't upset balance they would be completely useless.
Spawning away from enemies is the way it's supposed to work. In practice it doesn't work that way.
I also like how you first say that attackers jumped over the stakes and them use the argument that jumping over them is hard. If those stakes delayed 2 or 3 attackers and then afterwards delayed 1 defender, then they did their job. They were good for the team, even if they were bad for that 1 defender. You're also exaggerating the time it takes to destroy them. It takes me 4 to 5 hits with my throwing lance to destroy 1 stake. Hardly an eternity.
Perfect example happened today with me: I backed away from a bunch of attackers, ran into stakes somebody had placed behind me and died. The attackers then split up: some of them started hacking apart the stakes, others tried to go around them. The first group got beaten pretty badly by the defending ranged players that were safe behind the stakes, the second got owned by the defending melee since they were outnumbered because they split up.
The stakes were bad for me and great for the team.
Stake spam
That's a completely different issue and one easily solved by doing what Karasu said earlier in the thread. On the ladder part: while I agree with you about battle, I don't about siege. Siege was much more fun with ladders than without, even if the ladders weren't perfect.
I say again: Irrational hatred. Most people in this thread only see the bad side of stakes and just want them removed on that basis, while completely failing to see the good side. They add a very interesting dynamic element to an otherwise static map. Please devs, fix and improve stakes, don't get lazy and just remove them like you did with ladders.
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Yes, because the devs have such a good record of being able to quickly fix problems that arise with new mechanics. Ladders ruined both battle and siege, never forget.
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Ladders have improved siege, never forget.
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A "constructive" idea would be to suggest that all kind of stuff can be build in the first minute only or so of a siege round, including ladders.
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You're exaggerating. Most are placed just fine, just because they're an inconvenience to you does not mean they're bad for the team.
First of, and this may sound a little arrogant, if they get me killed they are bad for the team, because then i cannot defend whatever i wanted to defend in the first place for a whole 30 seconds.
Second, i'm not talking only about the experience that i had with stakes, i've seen so many people get stuck in them and then losing the round because inable to defend the flag area.
That's your opinion. Other people do not share it and it certainly doesn't justify destroying them.
I already said that i do not destroy stakes that seem useful to me, i was just saying how ridiculous this mechanic can be.
Yes, stakes upset balance, that's the whole point, if used correctly they swing the balance in favour of who ever placed them, if they didn't upset balance they would be completely useless.
That's where i'll probably never agree with you. Yes, i might have seen a few times where stakes actually helped the whole team because they were all working together, but like i mentioned before, it happens very rare and most of the times they swing the balance in the other teams favour. And i really don't think i'm just seeing the bad side of them here, because i truly believe from my experience with them that they simply don't have a wide range of good purposes on siege.
Spawning away from enemies is the way it's supposed to work. In practice it doesn't work that way.
Yes it does. Only on the occasion that most of the spawnpoints are close to enemies it might spawn you directly next to one.
I also like how you first say that attackers jumped over the stakes and them use the argument that jumping over them is hard. If those stakes delayed 2 or 3 attackers and then afterwards delayed 1 defender, then they did their job. They were good for the team, even if they were bad for that 1 defender. You're also exaggerating the time it takes to destroy them. It takes me 4 to 5 hits with my throwing lance to destroy 1 stake. Hardly an eternity.
Ha, i knew that would get back to me. I was implying that attackers managed to get there without notice, and yes, might have took them two or more tries. At least that's what i need to get over them (Still faster than destroying them)
Anyway, if they delay a few attackers to get to the flag that's okay, but if then only 1 defender gets delayed and cannot make it to the flag in time and lose it, they still didn't do their job, they fucked their job up pretty badly.
Siege defenders always need to get to flag as fast as possible and especially with the new flag rushing down like the niagara falls and stakes deny that. That's also the reason why destroying them can be and often was in the past, an eternity.
Perfect example happened today with me: I backed away from a bunch of attackers, ran into stakes somebody had placed behind me and died. The attackers then split up: some of them started hacking apart the stakes, others tried to go around them. The first group got beaten pretty badly by the defending ranged players that were safe behind the stakes, the second got owned by the defending melee since they were outnumbered because they split up.
The stakes were bad for me and great for the team.
And you don't think it would have worked just as good when the defense used the natural map-made ways with you being alive and maybe killing one or two more?
Also i don't see how ranged can be safe if melee can just walk around them.
Anyway, you are probably talking to a wall here. I'm not going to change my opinion on the stakes from what i've seen doing them to their own team. Feel free to just ignore my posts from now on.
@Paul: Please don't bring back ladders, even if they can only be used in the first minute. Simply throwing a ladder onto a gate and then opening it for all the attackers always fucked the map-balance up real good. I don't want to go back to the "everybody camp flag from the beginning" siege because there might be a chance that some smart attackers manage to ladder up to the flag within the first minute. =/
For the stakes it seems like a good idea.
@Teeth: Yes, we could. I can think of at least 5 maps right now where ladders would allow us to ninja the flag within a minute.
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A "constructive" idea would be to suggest that all kind of stuff build can be build in the first minute only or so of a siege round, including ladders.
I bet one minute would be enough for HRE to build a ladder path straight to the flag which is after the passing of the first minute completely unreachable for defenders and therefore invincible. Ladders bypassed any balance, chokepoints and strategy present in a map and made every siege map devolved into camping the flag for the defenders while the present clan stack built a highway towards the flag. Nowadays you can actually pull of a multi stage defense and see a different part of the map than the direct flag area.
As for stakes, yes that would be better. Defenders can quickly reinforce some chokepoints, which will give them an edge if done well. Although I am still with Kafein on this that stakes group up attackers more effectively than anything and are more of a boon to attackers, because an attacking blob, even if delayed, is a lot more effective than the constant stream which can be taken out by a concentrated defense.
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A "constructive" idea would be to suggest that all kind of stuff build can be build in the first minute only or so of a siege round, including ladders.
Well, this would be a compromise, there are only a handfull of castles where you could reach the flag with a single ladder.
... Ladders bypassed any balance, chokepoints and strategy present in a map and made every siege map devolved into camping the flag for the defenders while the present clan stack built a highway towards the flag. Nowadays you can actually pull of a multi stage defense and see a different part of the map than the direct flag area.
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Naa, then the defenders have to respond to the actions of teh attackers and need to break out off their boring "defend ladders, defend gatehouse, defend flag area" routine. That is why the massive backdoor rushes work most of the times, the defenders do simply not care what the attackers do.
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dammit! so frustrating discussion,
admins please:
1. set a rule that "friendly stakes killing" is allowed and welcome
or
2. set a rule that you are allowed to beat the **** out of HRE player which destroys your stakes just because he can
or
3. disable stakes at the siege
any option will be appreciated (especially the 2nd :twisted:)
howgh
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Because people can not respect the rules and insult people with trash talk...grifing (yes i love to make people mad at me....and I love to put up stakes to fuck up my team...you see it everyday LOL).... I think it's best to have voting ... this I have no probem with ... my problem Is that people makes they own rules and brake the rules we have!
Voting please dear admins :)
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I'd appreciate disabling stakes on siege.
Most of the time they not very well placed and hinder the team more then the enemy...
Often some attacker is spamming them at spawn which is just annoying...
Although they seem to be very buggy....At least they can be placed almost everywhere and if you're walking on newly spawning stakes it almost certain death...
Most reason have been told already but well...
But the most annoying thing about them is the numbers you get to see from time to time...
More then once i have seen a complete courtyard covered with stakes.
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Because people can not respect the rules and insult people with trash talk...grifing (yes i love to make people mad at me....and I love to put up stakes to fuck up my team...you see it everyday LOL).... I think it's best to have voting ... this I have no probem with ... my problem Is that people makes they own rules and brake the rules we have!
Voting please dear admins :)
You like to grief your own team, and then get butthurt when they "grief" you in turn by not allowing themselves to get griefed?
Explain this to me, it sounds very interesting.
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please remove stakes from siege.
stakes is being used as blockade and not anti-cav. (cav on siege? :O)
stop being silly ronald :)