cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: FRANK_THE_TANK on June 14, 2013, 09:39:20 am

Title: Long Bow Buff
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on June 14, 2013, 09:39:20 am
Currently it's pretty damn average.

The damage out put from unloomed and imo even loomed archers is pretty shabby.

I've got 5IF 15str and I wear a +3 Padded jack and I laugh off most archer fire... it just doesn't seem right. I can drop almost anyone wearing such light armour with one bolt from my arb especially if they have stats like me. I'm not looking to have the long bow turned into a one shot one kill canon of doom, but it should at least not suck so much.

Thusly I have endevoured for the betterment of the fool Welsh weapon!

Current stats
Long Bow
missile speed: 40
weight: 4
accuracy: 103
difficulty: 6
speed rating: 50
missile speed: 40
thrust damage: 31 cut
slots: 2
Can't use on horseback

Frank Stats
Long Bow
missile speed: 44
weight: 4
accuracy: 100
difficulty: 7
speed rating: 47
missile speed: 44
thrust damage: 36 cut
slots: 2
Can't use on horseback

Basically, I slowed it down to speed it up. The arrows go pewpew with increased pewiness (aka velocity) and it now hits more like a truck and less like a tonka. Also the decrease in accuracy is a compensation for the massive ball breaking power increase. Pushing it to PD7 will eat into the wpf and ath of the archer (theoretically).

As we know PD eats it because PD is a turd and having to go to 21 instead of 18str pulls three out of AGI or sucks up 6 skills points.

So hopefully the longbowmen would either have to cut their IF, kiting or take a bit of a hit to accuracy. In turn though they would be a real son of a bitch at close and mid range causing some serious pain to anything they blast.

----------

Current longbow power out put @PD7
61.38

Frank POP@PD7
71.28

Loomed

CPOP@PD7
65.34

FPOP@PD7
75.24

As you can see the Frankenstiened longbow kicks rather more arse. I honestly think this is how the damn thing should work.
Title: Re: Long Bow Buff
Post by: [ptx] on June 14, 2013, 09:47:35 am
* PD lowers effective proficiency -> lowers accuracy & speed
* Higher base damage lowers accuracy
* Lowered base accuracy
* Higher PD requirement lowers max possible proficiency -> lowers accuracy & speed
* Lower base speed rating pushes it over the edge, where it is once again impossible to release arrow before the reticule grows.

That is not "a bit" of a hit to accuracy. That is a death blow to anything that could be called accuracy.

You didn't really think this through, yeah?
Title: Re: Long Bow Buff
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on June 14, 2013, 09:52:10 am
* PD lowers effective proficiency -> lowers accuracy & speed
* Higher base damage lowers accuracy
* Lowered base accuracy
* Higher PD requirement lowers max possible proficiency -> lowers accuracy & speed
* Lower base speed rating pushes it over the edge, where it is once again impossible to release arrow before the reticule grows.

That is not "a bit" of a hit to accuracy. That is a death blow to anything that could be called accuracy.

You didn't really think this through, yeah?

No I did. I went and tested out 7PD longbow archer vs 6PD and found that it made my long range pewpew pretty average but didn't have an effect on my ability at mid range and close range.

I take mid range as about 40-70 paces in game and close as 0-40.

In saying that I obviously couldn't test out how much of a hit my changes would make.
Title: Re: Long Bow Buff
Post by: [ptx] on June 14, 2013, 09:55:49 am
"tested"? As in, played an STF for 30 minutes?

As one that has a gen7 longbowman alt, i can say that the only buff/change longbow needs right now is one that removes the sadistic upkeep from bodkin arrows. It is the sole reason, why i don't play my archer alt nowadays, i can't afford it.

Your "buff" would render the longbow unable to hit the side of a barn from medium range and far, far too slow to be able to actually do anything other than a single arrow at close range (and still have to pray for it to hit something).
Title: Re: Long Bow Buff
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on June 14, 2013, 10:11:42 am
"tested"? As in, played an STF for 30 minutes?

As one that has a gen7 longbowman alt, i can say that the only buff/change longbow needs right now is one that removes the sadistic upkeep from bodkin arrows. It is the sole reason, why i don't play my archer alt nowadays, i can't afford it.

Your "buff" would render the longbow unable to hit the side of a barn from medium range and far, far too slow to be able to actually do anything other than a single arrow at close range (and still have to pray for it to hit something).

Tested for 3 days with an STF. So the you got the 3 part right.

The differentiation from the rus bow is a pretty damn poor and that's mostly why I think the long bow needs a large change.

I think you are seriously over selling the cut to accuracy btw. I put my stf on 140wpf with 7PD and with my amazing 300 ping was still hitting people and dropping targets every once in a while at range. So *blows rasberry*

---

Also I'm a shitty archer, I'm a much better xbowphag.
Title: Re: Long Bow Buff
Post by: Rebelyell on June 14, 2013, 12:39:10 pm
Currently it's pretty damn average.

The damage out put from unloomed and imo even loomed archers is pretty shabby.

I've got 5IF 15str and I wear a +3 Padded jack and I laugh off most archer fire... it just doesn't seem right. I can drop almost anyone wearing such light armour with one bolt from my arb especially if they have stats like me. I'm not looking to have the long bow turned into a one shot one kill canon of doom, but it should at least not suck so much.

Thusly I have endevoured for the betterment of the fool Welsh weapon!

Current stats
Long Bow
missile speed: 40
weight: 4
accuracy: 103
difficulty: 6
speed rating: 50
missile speed: 40
thrust damage: 31 cut
slots: 2
Can't use on horseback

Frank Stats
Long Bow
missile speed: 44
weight: 4
accuracy: 100
difficulty: 7
speed rating: 47
missile speed: 44
thrust damage: 36 cut
slots: 2
Can't use on horseback

Basically, I slowed it down to speed it up. The arrows go pewpew with increased pewiness (aka velocity) and it now hits more like a truck and less like a tonka. Also the decrease in accuracy is a compensation for the massive ball breaking power increase. Pushing it to PD7 will eat into the wpf and ath of the archer (theoretically).

As we know PD eats it because PD is a turd and having to go to 21 instead of 18str pulls three out of AGI or sucks up 6 skills points.

So hopefully the longbowmen would either have to cut their IF, kiting or take a bit of a hit to accuracy. In turn though they would be a real son of a bitch at close and mid range causing some serious pain to anything they blast.

----------

Current longbow power out put @PD7
61.38

Frank POP@PD7
71.28

Loomed


you have no idea how many peps wuld that screw up
CPOP@PD7
65.34

FPOP@PD7
75.24

As you can see the Frankenstiened longbow kicks rather more arse. I honestly think this is how the damn thing should work.

you have no idea how many peps wuld that screw up
Title: Re: Long Bow Buff
Post by: HappyPhantom on June 15, 2013, 06:21:20 am
Agree, upkeep on archer is ridiculous compared to 1h/shield and 2h! And as archer having to pump 18 str  for 6 pd is plenty I think. If 7pd was ever required I think id drop archer for good.
Title: Re: Long Bow Buff
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on June 15, 2013, 08:56:08 am
Then use the gorram rus bow. The long bow is so dull and lifeless.
Title: Re: Long Bow Buff
Post by: Corsair831 on June 16, 2013, 12:30:34 pm
a single arrow from steeveee, an EU archer who uses the longbow, will usually take ~~ 90%-100% of my hp.

The longbow doesn't need a buff.
Title: Re: Long Bow Buff
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on June 16, 2013, 01:32:54 pm
a single arrow from steeveee, an EU archer who uses the longbow, will usually take ~~ 90%-100% of my hp.

The longbow doesn't need a buff.

A real crpg classic. Consider 1 top player (probably with all +3 equip) and base nerf/buff on him.

Bullshit
Title: Re: Long Bow Buff
Post by: Corsair831 on June 16, 2013, 02:19:25 pm
A real crpg classic. Consider 1 top player (probably with all +3 equip) and base nerf/buff on him.

Bullshit

i was using him as an example, but whatever, a STR archer with a +3 longbow currently does humongous amounts of damage
Title: Re: Long Bow Buff
Post by: Rebelyell on June 16, 2013, 02:22:38 pm
l2 use armour
Title: Re: Long Bow Buff
Post by: Gurnisson on June 16, 2013, 03:33:13 pm
A real crpg classic. Consider 1 top player (probably with all +3 equip) and base nerf/buff on him.

Bullshit

He was talking damage, and a body shot from a good/bad archer with the same gear will do the same..

They do a ton of damage, but that's okay. However, a buff is definitely not needed.
Title: Re: Long Bow Buff
Post by: Corsair831 on June 16, 2013, 03:46:37 pm
l2 use armor

l2 spell armour

 :D
Title: Re: Long Bow Buff
Post by: Memento_Mori on June 16, 2013, 07:20:05 pm
l2 spell armour

 :D
armor vs armour

Both those spellings are correct, just depends where you're from.

:3
Title: Re: Long Bow Buff
Post by: Rebelyell on June 16, 2013, 10:35:27 pm
l2 spell armour

 :D

 :oops:
Title: Re: Long Bow Buff
Post by: Tydeus on June 16, 2013, 11:50:18 pm
Frank... this would result in 89 less wpf worth of accuracy. Meaning that with 7 PD and 178 wpf, you would have the same exact effective accuracy with your version of the longbow as current 7 PD longbowman have at 1/2 the amount of wpf.

Edited for clarification.
Title: Re: Long Bow Buff
Post by: Paul on June 17, 2013, 08:27:08 am
Increasing shot speed and decreasing accuracy is the complete opposite of my skill based ranged doctrine. With high projectile speed and wide spread it really becomes point&click with the randomisation actually helping those who can't even do that correctly. Then the melee blockheads would be actually right with their "ranged takes no skill" retarding. With high accu and low shot speed it puts at least those in advantage who can anticipate the enemy movement and get the ballistic arc right. I'd actually increase accuracy across the board for all ranged(with HX getting HA penalty) but that would make them lobbyist cry.
Title: Re: Long Bow Buff
Post by: Grumbs on June 17, 2013, 05:47:26 pm
Paul why do you have to insult melee players all the time? Can't even talk about balance without these common insults
Title: Re: Long Bow Buff
Post by: PanPan on June 17, 2013, 05:54:58 pm
I'm getting 2-3 shotted with 18 str 0 IF and +3 Black lammelar Vest by a longbow.

I don't think it needs a buff.
Title: Re: Long Bow Buff
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on June 17, 2013, 06:15:03 pm
I'm getting 2-3 shotted with 18 str 0 IF and +3 Black lammelar Vest by a longbow.

I don't think it needs a buff.

Running at the archer, neutral speed, running away?  What kind of arrows were they using?  Were they loomed?  Was the long bow loomed?

I'm not saying the Long Bow needs a buff (I really don't think it does) but it's just funny seeing people bring their anecdotal evidence to these threads, and they don't even account for all the factors that goes into how much damage is dealt. 
Title: Re: Long Bow Buff
Post by: XyNox on June 20, 2013, 06:50:29 pm
Increasing shot speed and decreasing accuracy is the complete opposite of my skill based ranged doctrine. With high projectile speed and wide spread it really becomes point&click with the randomisation actually helping those who can't even do that correctly. Then the melee blockheads would be actually right with their "ranged takes no skill" retarding. With high accu and low shot speed it puts at least those in advantage who can anticipate the enemy movement and get the ballistic arc right. I'd actually increase accuracy across the board for all ranged(with HX getting HA penalty) but that would make them lobbyist cry.

I am quite happy to hear those words from a dev, as this is the way it should be IMO. BUT ...

I'd actually increase accuracy across the board for all ranged(with HX getting HA penalty) but that would make them lobbyist cry.

... why do you care ? Its "your" game isnt it ? This is one of the things I never understood about cRPG balance. You name it in this very post, you are not even talking about making ranged outright better. Instead you are talking about changes which would make things a bit more fair. Nobody likes random numbers that are magicly letting a perfectly executed shot miss all of a sudden for no apparent reason, still you choose to let it stay in the game because:

... that would make them lobbyist cry.

Which then again leads to the requirement of an inapprehensible high amount of WPF, in order to be able to make the shots your skill actually allows you to pull off.

Just why Paul, or whoever is responsible for the decision to wipe them retarded lobbyists asses even more, as a reward for their lobbying ?!

E: Heh, speaking of retarded lobbyists

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Long Bow Buff
Post by: Kafein on June 20, 2013, 07:16:35 pm
I agree wholeheartedly with this

Increasing shot speed and decreasing accuracy is the complete opposite of my skill based ranged doctrine. With high projectile speed and wide spread it really becomes point&click with the randomisation actually helping those who can't even do that correctly. Then the melee blockheads would be actually right with their "ranged takes no skill" retarding. With high accu and low shot speed it puts at least those in advantage who can anticipate the enemy movement and get the ballistic arc right. I'd actually increase accuracy across the board for all ranged(with HX getting HA penalty) but that would make them lobbyist cry.

because obviously, when archery lobbyists complain their shots go only slightly faster than sound, that means projectile speed should be reduced across the board. Now seriously, buff aiming skill and buff dodging, that is, buff accuracy and nerf projectile speed. I think playing as archer is already quite skill based (although not my cup of tea personally), it's really the receiving end that lacks defensive countermeasures.

Also please end this myth that melee players complain because they are melee players.
Title: Re: Long Bow Buff
Post by: OttomanSniper on June 21, 2013, 07:58:55 am
Get PD skill for xbow.
Title: Re: Long Bow Buff
Post by: Shaksie on June 21, 2013, 09:10:39 am
Frank this is yucky!
I'm 18/21 with a +3 Long Bow and +3 Bodkin Arrows and I do a fairly decent amount of damage, I kill Dutchy (I believe he has around 60 body armor and 70 hp) in 4 shots (which is a little silly though, 4 is more difficult than many people may think) and I occasionally 1 shot peasants in DTV.
The only issues I have with it are that it is VERY expensive (777g upkeep almost every single round, with 354 from Bodkins nearly as often has lost me 100k this gen) and the slow rate of fire means I have to time my shots and reloads in order to be able to get shots off in archer duels. However, it does a fairly substantial amount more damage than other bows, has very fast projectile speed which is key in my opinion, and the accuracy is nice.

Suggestion for archery, Paul:
I agree, I think ranged weapons need to be more accurate but this would make those that haven't actually tried it deem ranged weapons op.
In my opinion, having a reticule which is simply too large to hit enemies with is a little silly and involves too much luck. I suggest that ranged weapons should have near pinpoint accuracy but the aim should sway, and the sway should increase and perhaps the actual accuracy could decrease when the string has been held too long; this should be determined by the difference between the archer's strength and the bow used.
WPF could additionally to the increase in accuracy, reduce the amount the weapon sways. As could agility I suppose, but firing rate increase may in itself be enough.
Title: Re: Long Bow Buff
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on June 21, 2013, 10:27:13 am
Increasing shot speed and decreasing accuracy is the complete opposite of my skill based ranged doctrine. With high projectile speed and wide spread it really becomes point&click with the randomisation actually helping those who can't even do that correctly. Then the melee blockheads would be actually right with their "ranged takes no skill" retarding. With high accu and low shot speed it puts at least those in advantage who can anticipate the enemy movement and get the ballistic arc right. I'd actually increase accuracy across the board for all ranged(with HX getting HA penalty) but that would make them lobbyist cry.

After massively limiting my WPF, wearing heavyish armour and packing 7PD I didn't notice a cut in the amount skill I need to land shots. What I did notice was that when I pulled the shot up I had bugger all time to release which forced me to use my eye and fire off instinct instead of plan out every shot like some arm chair bowmen wanna be :P

I do however agree with you that the accuracy should go way up.

I had an idea for how to make the bow system work, it's a ranged concept that won't work for anything else and so would require odd implementation. I'll try my best to explain it.

When you pull the string back on the bow the aiming retical begins wide, I'm talking very wide. Running shot gun wide. And then closes into the center, it meets at the center and at that point your shot is 100% perfectly accurate.  WPF has a curved impact on how quickly it makes it too the center and how long it holds, BUT!!! And this is what I think is the cool part even if you have 0 wpf you still get the window where the shot is perfect.

Now my idea is that the speed gradient is kind of exponential, with a little jump at the start. So it starts wide, quickly pushes in, slows down and then begins speeding up from there.

Pulling off a perfect shot with wpf should be at least as difficult as chambering (harder imo but that should give people and idea of the difficult I'm talking about. It's a fraction of a second when it's perfect.)

This would take archery off into the land of skill and timing in a very big way. You would have to judge the movement of your target against your draw time and then count flight time in as well, then aim without the retical and pull your shot together and release with out pissing about or thinking too hard. Think of that bad arse archer from the third season of GoT.

----

However, I still say, BUFF longbow.

I don't mind if the arrow speed doesn't go up but it really does need a freaking buff.

----

Totally off topic.

Buff crossbow, a lot and make the arb 3 slots as compensation for the increases in the crossbow.