cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Ronin on June 08, 2013, 02:22:51 pm

Title: The best suggestion for horse ranged!
Post by: Ronin on June 08, 2013, 02:22:51 pm
Probably a nice solution if it comes with a free respec:

My suggestion has 4 steps:
-Make the current arrow/bolt quivers not usable on horseback.
-Introduce the halved quivers for all type of bolts and 2/3 quivers for all type of arrows. Make both their prices, weights halved. The ammunition of quivers shall be respectively 1/2 and 2/3. The slots can be the same.
-Give them free respec, both to stats and items
-Remove Horse Archery penalty to wpf (it was silly anyway).

Therefore, all horse ranged will have half the ammo they have now. Which will probably bring an end to round delaying (the biggest problem of the class). Introducing a free respec will give them the option to make a hybrid melee/ranged build rather than pure ranged.

Examples:
(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

We will have both versions in the shop.

For loomed versions, I don't see any problems for both to have +1 to ammo.


Additionally this has the potential to be good for people who want to make inf/archer hybrids, because the upkeep and the weight will be halved now. Probably, it will not be something very common but more diversity is always good.
Title: Re: The best suggestion for horse ranged!
Post by: Ronin on June 08, 2013, 02:27:37 pm
Fixed a small but important typo.
Title: Re: The best suggestion for horse ranged!
Post by: OttomanSniper on June 08, 2013, 02:49:58 pm
nerf nerf nerf... no more idea. what an idiot go to war with 10 arrow? pls leave game if you dont know play.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The best suggestion for horse ranged!
Post by: Panos on June 08, 2013, 02:51:54 pm
nerf nerf nerf... no more idea. what an idiot go to war with 10 arrow? pls leave game if you dont know play.

(click to show/hide)

the qq is strong with this one
Title: Re: The best suggestion for horse ranged!
Post by: Rumblood on June 08, 2013, 10:45:56 pm
the qq is strong with this one

Ironic statement considering the thread is a QQ in and of itself.
Title: Re: The best suggestion for horse ranged!
Post by: sdfjkln on June 09, 2013, 06:47:23 pm
Best fix for everybody is to change flag mechanics on battle, seige doesn't have a ranged delaying problem because the goal isn't to kill every single person on the other team, you can ignore kiting archers/heros and just go to the flags. Make flags pop out earlier on Battle mode and all this delaying whine will be mute. The upside is that you don't have to worry about ruining balance between classes which is mostly fine despite all the said whine.
Title: Re: The best suggestion for horse ranged!
Post by: Ronin on June 10, 2013, 11:03:49 am
 :o

What the hell is going on? This is not a nerf. This is something that will reduce qq from infantry. Because a horse ranged with 30 ammo just makes it impossible for infantry to fight back for a very long time.

Don't you see this is the thing required to make horse ranged balanced, instead of silly nerfs such as HA penalty to wpf. Besides, everyone agrees that 7/30 HX build is like a joke. So they will have to use a more melee/ranged build like 12/27 or 15/24. It's not like you can't use a pierce/blunt weapon effectively on horseback, especially if you have 8 or 9 riding.

About the ranged capabilities, the HorseCrossbowmen also has no problems with the HorseArchery skill. They are already accurate since they take no wpf penalty. If the HorseArchery penalty is removed, HorseArchers will have no such penalties as well. Which means more accuracy -> therefore less ammo required to make accurate shots. If you are using:
-2 stacks of bodkins, you will have 16 ammunition (masterworks)
-2 stacks of tatars, you will have 20 ammunition
-2 stacks of steel bolts, 14 ammunition

Which is more than enough if all things considered. Those classes will play like hybrids, engaging with melee weapons when they see an opening and using their bows/crossbows when they need to shoot from afar.

I'm really tired of qq statements. Make constructive criticism or fuck off.
Title: Re: The best suggestion for horse ranged!
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on June 10, 2013, 04:25:41 pm
Whether or not this is a nerf is slightly debatable (it is), regardless of that it is a horrible idea.
Title: Re: The best suggestion for horse ranged!
Post by: Torben on June 10, 2013, 04:29:48 pm
this doesnt adress HA being inferior to HX,  and HX being kinda ridiculouse...
Title: Re: The best suggestion for horse ranged!
Post by: Rumblood on June 10, 2013, 07:02:42 pm
Great idea! Also, after 20 swings, all 2 handers should turn into short swords and maces. All 1 handers should turn into daggers and clubs, and all polearms should turn into a staff! That will stop all the foot archer QQ about not being able to compete in melee!
Title: Re: The best suggestion for horse ranged!
Post by: Ronin on June 13, 2013, 12:48:55 am
Great idea! Also, after 20 swings, all 2 handers should turn into short swords and maces. All 1 handers should turn into daggers and clubs, and all polearms should turn into a staff! That will stop all the foot archer QQ about not being able to compete in melee!
Funny you :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The best suggestion for horse ranged!
Post by: Konrax on June 13, 2013, 06:44:10 pm
I would rather see a reduction in reload speed on horse back.

Xbow cav is much worse than HA.
Title: Re: The best suggestion for horse ranged!
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on June 13, 2013, 06:54:14 pm
Anyone 1+ing your suggestion has never played horseranged, I'm not even biased in this scenario, cause it's impossible to cut the throwing lances ammo in half. :lol:
Title: Re: The best suggestion for horse ranged!
Post by: Ronin on June 13, 2013, 07:12:51 pm
It is not for horse throwing, they have a low ammo already.

Maybe I should have made 2/3 ammo for Horsearchers and 1/2 for horse crossbows.
Title: Re: The best suggestion for horse ranged!
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on June 13, 2013, 07:19:20 pm
It is not for horse throwing, they have a low ammo already.

Maybe I should have made 2/3 ammo for Horsearchers and 1/2 for horse crossbows.
Horsethrowers aren't UP compared to HA, please don't fuck up internal horseranged balance in the name of a shitty bad idea.
Title: Re: The best suggestion for horse ranged!
Post by: Ronin on June 13, 2013, 07:30:40 pm
Never said they were UP.
Title: Re: The best suggestion for horse ranged!
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on June 13, 2013, 07:39:12 pm
Never said they were UP.
So, if horsethrowers aren't UP compared to HA/HX, how in goats fucking name is nerfing HA thus shitting up horseranged balance a good idea?
Title: Re: The best suggestion for horse ranged!
Post by: Micah on June 13, 2013, 07:57:09 pm
Sorry , but imo pretty poor solution gameplay-wise tbh, and not near to be the "best sollutioin", considering there are quite interresting and good other ideas out there.
Its a mere nerf without insight in the balance system and consequences of changes.
The idea is to make classes more fun to play and not to nerf them to death  (talking of : all classes in the game) :wink:
Title: Re: The best suggestion for horse ranged!
Post by: Ronin on June 13, 2013, 09:20:07 pm
Because basically I don't think reducing the ammo would be necessarily nerfing those classes, if there is another compensation on the table.

What ammo influences is, the time those classes can stay away from melee combat (if they are avoiding the melee cavalry well). with 3 stacks of bodkin arrows, it was 48 ammunition. A very high amount for a class that is also moving very fast if you ask me. 2 stacks of bodkins with a melee weapon would make it 32. With my suggestion, they would be having 24 and 16. It is still pretty enough for a skirmisher class.

That is why I made this suggestion and why I think it is the best way to go. Removing the ability of horse archer classes to be the mounted foot archer. This suggestion would make them more of a skirmishers now, because you can't balance a class that has the speed of a horse and the shooting power of a bow/crossbow; as said by someone else that I don't remember of his name.

Think of it like this. The most classified Horse Archer build is:
(click to show/hide)

However with the addition of removal of Horse Archery skill penalty to wpf. You can easily make something like this.
(click to show/hide)

Jackie's 15/18 build could have been even more useful. If you want, you can stick with the old 15/24 build as well. I remember using a military hammer with 30 wpf and 0 ps with that and 5 riding. It was pretty useful. Not to mention it would be actually easier with 7 riding.



By the way updated the first post a bit (that's what feedbacks are for eh?). Made it even more in favor of horse archers, since their ammo seemed a bit low for their effectiveness. It's 2/3 for arrows and 1/2 for bolts now. Which makes 10+1 bodkins, 12+1 for tatars and 14+1 for barbed (rounded down). Weight and prices are still halved down for arrows. Bolt quivers are the same because 6+1 per quiver is more than enough for Horse crossbows to be effective since their damage output is higher and it is easier for horse crossbowman to hybridize with melee. Horse Throwers are untouched because they are not an UP class as says zlisch aka. the faithful defender of horse throwers.
Title: Re: The best suggestion for horse ranged!
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on June 13, 2013, 09:53:36 pm
Nerfing HA/HX the slightest with your "compensation" is silly, the compensation would also be removing the HA wpf nerf from horsethrowers, so you'd still fuck up balance.
Title: Re: The best suggestion for horse ranged!
Post by: Ronin on June 14, 2013, 03:50:33 pm
Do you seriously think that will make Horsethrowing Overpowered?
Title: Re: The best suggestion for horse ranged!
Post by: Rumblood on June 14, 2013, 04:58:00 pm
Do you seriously think that will make Horsethrowing Overpowered?

I don't think you have enough experience with Horse Throwing to seriously ask that question.
Title: Re: The best suggestion for horse ranged!
Post by: Phew on June 14, 2013, 07:47:58 pm
Best fix for everybody is to change flag mechanics on battle, seige doesn't have a ranged delaying problem because the goal isn't to kill every single person on the other team, you can ignore kiting archers/heros and just go to the flags. Make flags pop out earlier on Battle mode and all this delaying whine will be mute. The upside is that you don't have to worry about ruining balance between classes which is mostly fine despite all the said whine.

QFT. If you are sick of delaying ranged cav on battle, come to siege where everyone dies like a man. You can basically ignored the ranged, as they don't really affect the outcome of the battle. The most annoying class on siege is maulers, but they are relatively rare.
Title: Re: The best suggestion for horse ranged!
Post by: Phew on June 14, 2013, 07:49:15 pm
Do you seriously think that will make Horsethrowing Overpowered?

I made a STF Javalry, played for like 4 hours and didn't get a single kill from throwing while mounted (unless I stopped the horse, which kills the point). Must underpowered class for sure (even pugilists do better).
Title: Re: The best suggestion for horse ranged!
Post by: Paul on June 14, 2013, 07:57:44 pm
HX will get the HA skill penalty and HT will lose it next patch.
Title: Re: The best suggestion for horse ranged!
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on June 14, 2013, 08:05:03 pm
HX will get the HA skill penalty and HT will lose it next patch.
If HT loses it then HA should as well, I'm all for HX getting it cause fuck HX, but still.
Title: Re: The best suggestion for horse ranged!
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on June 14, 2013, 08:15:10 pm
Do you seriously think that will make Horsethrowing Overpowered?
Overpowered? Nope, it'll however be unfair to horsearchers, just like buffing horsearchers to "counter hx" is a shitty idiotic pisspoor idea as it fucks over ht and breaks the balance slightly there. Horsearchery/horsethrowing is balanced with eachother atm, HX is slightly out of line, shitting up HT/HA in the name of "some idiotic goal that won't be accomplished that way" is a bad idea.
I don't think you have enough experience with Horse Throwing to seriously ask that question.
Have you ever played dedicated horsethrower? (you're correct though)
I made a STF Javalry, played for like 4 hours and didn't get a single kill from throwing while mounted (unless I stopped the horse, which kills the point). Must underpowered class for sure (even pugilists do better).
Then you're doing it wrong, and using javs (they suck).
Title: Re: The best suggestion for horse ranged!
Post by: Phew on June 14, 2013, 08:42:00 pm
Then you're doing it wrong, and using javs (they suck).

I was using +3 Jarids, but "Jaridavalry" doesn't sound as cool as "javalry". And doing it wrong in the sense that you should stop moving to throw? That kills the fun of tossing a bulls eye from a full gallop (which admitted I never actually accomplished, but I bet it's fun!).
Title: Re: The best suggestion for horse ranged!
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on June 14, 2013, 09:06:11 pm
I was using +3 Jarids, but "Jaridavalry" doesn't sound as cool as "javalry". And doing it wrong in the sense that you should stop moving to throw? That kills the fun of tossing a bulls eye from a full gallop (which admitted I never actually accomplished, but I bet it's fun!).
I've done horsethrowing longer than all other people I've ever seen in this mod, I don't know how you're doing it, but I don't have a serious problem like what you're claiming, neither with my unloomed throwing spears or my unloomed throwing lances, I can headshot lancers riding on the other side of an open field occasionally, I can onehit all armored cavalry charging at me, I can kill HA and HX, I can defeat the average ground archer in a one on one without bumping, I can one or twohit most guys with throwing lances as long as I'm riding fullspeed and they're standing still/moving towards me, it really isn't that horribly underpowered (is much weaker on servers that lack wse2 though).