cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Sir_Wonka on June 07, 2013, 06:46:48 pm
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To help show the meaning of this post I spent some time to make an illustration of the problem:
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(http://s1303.photobucket.com/user/WonkiWonka/media/comic_zpsdcde6a0f.jpg.html)
If you haven't read Rusty Spoons PSA I suggest you do, it also informs that there are more than just 2, 2 handers on the marketplace.
First I would like to draw you attention to the stats of the weapons and compare to a similar 2h:
Longsword
weapon length: 106
weight: 1.8
difficulty: 10
speed rating: 99
weapon length: 106
thrust damage: 23 pierce
swing damage: 37 cut
slots: 2
Secondary Mode
6,660 gold *look at it ITS THE DEVILS NUMBER
Heavy Bastard Sword
weapon length: 105
weight: 2
difficulty: 10
speed rating: 100
weapon length: 105
thrust damage: 23 pierce
swing damage: 36 cut
slots: 2
Secondary Mode
5,480 gold
Katana
weapon length: 95
weight: 1.5
difficulty: 9
speed rating: 100
weapon length: 95
thrust damage: 18 pierce
swing damage: 38 cut
slots: 2
9,376 gold
Comparing the HBS to the Katana the katana only has 2 more cut, compared to the Heavy Bastards 5 more pierce and 10 more length. They have the same speed and Katana stab is weak even +3, although the HBS has a very much useable stab. Also the prices they may not matter to most players but it does seem odd how they are priced. The heavy bastard being 5 more pierce, longer and as fast as the katana is around 3k less.
This may of been written in a QQ fashion but many others will agree that the number of players using the longsword or heavy bastard has gotten out of hand. Last night on NA2 with 22 Players (PLAY SIEGE PEOPLES) there were 11 2h while 10 out of those 11 2h were using heavy bastard or longsword. I garuntee that when I goto NA 1 with 60+ Players online I will get similar results. Besides the sheer number of players using them they have the power to double swing many other weapons if used in the correct manner which many users of these swords have found out and use greatly. You know by moving with the swing making it take 2x as long while they are able to swing for a second time. Unless you have good reflexes that double swing will always get you. Some people may call it footwork but I call it pure overpowered if you can do that to 90% of other weapons besides itself. I dont think that a nerf is possible or taking them out. But allowing the other 2h to shine may help greatly reduce the amount of double swinging longsword/HBS users that start 2h being called OP. Thank you for your time, and if you are using a longsword or HBS DROP IT YA WIMP GET A REAL WEAPON --~--Waffle
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Let me save your time - both are shitty OP shit.
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This is the greatest post i have ever seen
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add a heavy longsword.... :lol:
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add a heavy longsword.... :lol:
Dear god help us all
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hey man,i just did a second respec to 2h,so don't nerf it now. I wanna be OP for a change.
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Please buff 2h swords.
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The GS nerfs and shorter sword buff was implemented because there was only 2 2h actually in use on EU. The danish and the german, and it had been like that for 2 years.
Also, 2h heroes complained that DGS and GGS were too slow after some slight nerfs..
The solution was to make the shorter 2h swords more viable/faster, while nerfing the longer ones to actually create some variety in 2h weapon use. It worked, on EU we do have slightly more variation than we used to have.
Why the longswords are so popular on NA only god knows. Perhaps because you don't need weaponmaster to be fast with them?
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They are so popular because you can spam the shit out of everyone,and still deal a lot of dmg. 40 cut on mw with over 100 speed. WTF?
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So the sword swing graphic becomes the sun the second picture... with your name on it? What does this signify? Tell us!
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short broad longsword needed too
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Why the longswords are so popular on NA only god knows. Perhaps because you don't need weaponmaster to be fast with them?
I think because they are fast and easy to use, people use TONS of WPF with them it just makes em faster with more damage. It allows more double swinging and ease of use.
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We should just lower the damage on the Longsword and HBS and increase it on GS and dat shit
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So the sword swing graphic becomes the sun the second picture... with your name on it? What does this signify? Tell us!
Its a signal from the God of cRPG himself (KEN456) that you should obviously listen and convert to waffleism.
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the God of cRPG himself (KEN456)
Praise be to the Ken
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short broad longsword needed too
Why this man isn't in dev team?
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Maybe a flamberge buff should be put in place. It seems really only useable with an agi build to jump around. With my experiences I just get spammed or get too close.
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Yes, buff the Flamberge, buff the Great Sword, lol
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In my honest opinion, the stab of the 2h swords is really UP, come on lets be honest, the stab cant even outreach a pike, this is unfair.
BUFF 2H SWORDS #2K13
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These QQ threads never change. It's always the same story.
"Everyone but me is overpowered! Nerf pls!"
But don't worry, I have a brilliant new idea for how we can balance cRPG once and for all!
We'll just nerf EVERYTHING until we're all fighting with super soakers and foam weapons. Then everyone will be on even footing and everyone will be happy, right?
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I'm not saying they're not overpowered weapons, but saying it's due to 'double swing' amuses me.
Double swinging is a figment of your imagination, unless there's weapon stun involved. It's a question of footwork and knowing when to block. Everyone can block and everyone can chamber these days, so it's all about timing and positioning.
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I'm not saying they're not overpowered weapons, but saying it's due to 'double swing' amuses me.
Double swinging is a figment of your imagination, unless there's weapon stun involved. It's a question of footwork and knowing when to block. Everyone can block and everyone can chamber these days, so it's all about timing and positioning.
With double swing he means the endless spamming, tbh I don`t mind that much the speed of the longsword, what annoys me the most is the crazy speed bonus that the damage gets due to the 100+ speed.
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The GS nerfs and shorter sword buff was implemented because there was only 2 2h actually in use on EU. The danish and the german, and it had been like that for 2 years.
Also, 2h heroes complained that DGS and GGS were too slow after some slight nerfs..
The solution was to make the shorter 2h swords more viable/faster, while nerfing the longer ones to actually create some variety in 2h weapon use. It worked, on EU we do have slightly more variation than we used to have.
Why the longswords are so popular on NA only god knows. Perhaps because you don't need weaponmaster to be fast with them?
I made picture to explain it !
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With double swing he means the endless spamming, tbh I don`t mind that much the speed of the longsword, what annoys me the most is the crazy speed bonus that the damage gets due to the 100+ speed.
The OP is actually probably talking about the same thing Kalam is thinking of, also known as the hilt slash, or at least in certain circles, the Castor (http://forum.meleegaming.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1489) Swing©. I don't know the melee scene in EU but in NA tons of people do it, which is why longswords and bastard swords were and are still popular.
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These swords are popular because they are versatile. Decent dmg, good speed, although barely longer than the longer 1h swords - and not too expensive.
Albeit in battle they could be viewed as a little short, they are very useful in siege since longer swords tend to get stuck on castle walls and in crowds.
I said it in Rusty's thread and I'll say it here - I really don't see tons of LS/HBS. I see more katana's and miaodao's honestly. The katana is faster and harder hitting than the LS/HBS, and the Miaodao is easily the best 2H out there especially with its perceived "ghost reach" from the curved end - why I don't use it I do not know :( lol.
Not sure where all the LS/HBS criticism is coming from lately but even looking at it objectively I fail to see them as some huge OP problem. Are they maybe 1 speed too fast? Sure, latest buff was not necessary and I agree with that. But, their damage, especially on NA with all the HP/Armor - is not even that viable. I end up pulling out my morningstar more and more these days :)
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Wait, this confuses me a little. Are you complaining that a 99/100 speed weapon is considerably faster than a 86 speed weapon? Why should the longsword/HBS user have to match the rhythm of the flamberge user? If you let a speedy hand/half sword user get in your face, you're going to be at a disadvantage with a slow weapon like the flamberge. That's the downside to a long, hard-hitting weapon...being slow.
It's not like you can't fight back though. The high damage of the flamberge lets you turn into your swing considerably to hit early. You may have to block a couple times in a row against a hand/half sword but it's definitely not a no-win situation. Great maul users however... I feel bad for them. You guys are better off getting a bar mace because that weapon is garbage.
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These swords are popular because they are versatile. Decent dmg, good speed, although barely longer than the longer 1h swords - and not too expensive.
Albeit in battle they could be viewed as a little short, they are very useful in siege since longer swords tend to get stuck on castle walls and in crowds.
I said it in Rusty's thread and I'll say it here - I really don't see tons of LS/HBS. I see more katana's and miaodao's honestly. The katana is faster and harder hitting than the LS/HBS, and the Miaodao is easily the best 2H out there especially with its perceived "ghost reach" from the curved end - why I don't use it I do not know :( lol.
Not sure where all the LS/HBS criticism is coming from lately but even looking at it objectively I fail to see them as some huge OP problem. Are they maybe 1 speed too fast? Sure, latest buff was not necessary and I agree with that. But, their damage, especially on NA with all the HP/Armor - is not even that viable. I end up pulling out my morningstar more and more these days :)
I agree on the miaodao. I get pissed off every time I use it when I re-realize how stupidly good it is. If I liked the aesthetics of the curved swords, that's what I'd be using all the time. I also agree on the LS/HBS. The buff always struck me as unnecessary; especially when you consider the nerf to the german/danish.
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Try fighting a spammer with simple non-feinted swings & keep proper footwork.
You aren't going to get "double-swung" unless you get weapon stunned.
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Try fighting a spammer with simple non-feinted swings
Hence why spam is boring and overall a terrible, horrible thing for melee combat quality.
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The internal balance for 2hers is just plain bad. You see a myriad of one handers (some use blunt/pierce, many use swords, at least a couple use the axes), and a decent variety of polearms in use (pikes/long spears, hoplite spears, the swingable ones, the 2d awlpike-esque ones). What you don't see are 2h axes/bardiches, 2h blunt, or any of the medium to long swords in comparison to the bastard sword line.
What needs to happen is an inclusion of more/unique 2hers, and a balance overhaul of 2h as a class. At the moment, the superior animations of 2hers coupled with the speed and generous damage output due not only to stats but also to speed bonus/ player techniques makes the bastard sword line the ultimate weapon for most combat situations the crpg-er will run into. In a group fight, you can effectively side swing, stab, and overhead. When faced with a shielder, most times you can out-speed them with double hits, out manouver them with footwork and reach, and throw out a kick if you're confident. Any one on one situation will tip the balance in the favor of the 2h bastard sword user. The 2her's mortal enemy, ranged, can be easily overcome by using a small shield.
At the moment, there's no real reason for a 2h player to choose a weapon outside of the bastard sword class, unless they are going for a niche application. You don't necessarily have to nerf the bastard sword class, but please fix the 2h weapon selection.
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The internal balance for 2hers is just plain bad. You see a myriad of one handers (some use blunt/pierce, many use swords, at least a couple use the axes), and a decent variety of polearms in use (pikes/long spears, hoplite spears, the swingable ones, the 2d awlpike-esque ones). What you don't see are 2h axes/bardiches, 2h blunt, or any of the medium to long swords in comparison to the bastard sword line.
What needs to happen is an inclusion of more/unique 2hers, and a balance overhaul of 2h as a class. At the moment, the superior animations of 2hers coupled with the speed and generous damage output due not only to stats but also to speed bonus/ player techniques makes the bastard sword line the ultimate weapon for most combat situations the crpg-er will run into. In a group fight, you can effectively side swing, stab, and overhead. When faced with a shielder, most times you can out-speed them with double hits, out manouver them with footwork and reach, and throw out a kick if you're confident. Any one on one situation will tip the balance in the favor of the 2h bastard sword user. The 2her's mortal enemy, ranged, can be easily overcome by using a small shield.
At the moment, there's no real reason for a 2h player to choose a weapon outside of the bastard sword class, unless they are going for a niche application. You don't necessarily have to nerf the bastard sword class, but please fix the 2h weapon selection.
This isn't really true, I'm a long time 2hander who likes the longsword but use a couple others. Namely, on cav maps, open maps, or when fighting with a group I prefer great swords (GS or German GS) so I can play more of a support role, stabbing all horses and killstealing in the linefights with more stabs. On super dense maps with high population I like throwing on heavy armor and using a Bar Mace, nothing causes more havoc than that sweet thing with its high knockdown chance and damage (though 1handed blunt seems pretty freakin OP nowadays). Lately I started using a Morning Star because, once again, I think its far superior for killstealing in group battles and dispatches the higher threat enemies (probably other fully armored 2handers lol) with less hits.
If you noticed I actually have a Bardiche but I think its not that good compared to the polearm ones. Its too slow and short and the 2hand animations don't seem to work as well as the polearm ones for long, slow, high damage cut swing weapons. I'd prefer a Poleaxe or Long Bardiche anyday to the 2hand axes, since the right swing is so effective and damage/wonky animation so good.
I think the Longsword is honestly pretty trash in line battles or against heavy armored players. So its honestly not very good at strat anymore. Its only effective if you are surrounded by enemies or forcing 1vs1s, when you have any sort of facehugger shielder, hoplite, or piker in your grill the bastard swords are simply too short and weak to really shine.
Also the Miadao fits every complaint people have about bastard swords, except its longer and way more damaging. That is a weapon that is way better than anything else in its class and needs a look at. Its simply not as popular as LS.
Basically the LS is good on battle against medium armor targets or unorganized flanker play, but I don't think it shines as much as often as great swords (which are ridiculous when used properly)
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Maybe a morning bastard broad hafted spiked longsword needed ? (throwing one ofc)
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Maybe a morning bastard broad hafted spiked longsword needed ? (throwing one ofc)
I think this man is on to something
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Should also be Great and Italian
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Should also be Great and Italian
I m both !
Ciao, mi chiamo pepe...voli mangare la pizza con me ?
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Pezzo di merda ! (only thing I can say in Italian)
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I support nerfing HBS and longsword.
I have and have used my +3 HBS after the buff. It was easy mode.
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Imo a tiny speed nerf on both, a really really tiny one, is all there is needed for them to be somewhat in line with other 2hs.