cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: rufio on May 28, 2013, 08:49:52 pm

Title: horse ranged.
Post by: rufio on May 28, 2013, 08:49:52 pm
its very obvious there is a big epidemic of them , they have no problem hitting their arrows/bolts, and the damage, specially on xbows is sick, specially since they nearly always shoot from an elevated position witch increases damage right? i would like to see them get a moving crosshair when riding, would ballance it out imo. discuss.
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: Panos on May 28, 2013, 08:50:44 pm
i would like to see them get a moving crosshair when riding, would ballance it out imo. discuss.

And I would like a nerf to 2h, but you can`t have everything in this world.
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: NuberT on May 28, 2013, 08:52:18 pm
I want the old armor/soak values and a buff to all melee classes instead.
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on May 28, 2013, 09:03:07 pm
And I want anyone with less than 13 agility to randomly fall over because they forgot how to walk from getting beat in the head so many times while practice fighting.

You guys should stop crying, before someone finds out you're a bunch of whiney bitches.  There's literally 15 of these types of threads from the last 30 days.
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: Teeth on May 28, 2013, 09:36:19 pm
I find their damage excessive. It is usually in the 30-40% range in 59 body armour, or 60% with 79 body armour, had to pick my jaw up from the floor for that one. I don't get why they do not get the same treatment as HA. HA and HX can avoid any kind of combat while dishing out damage, naturally these classes should not be too strong or their popularity will ruin the game for everyone else. They seem to have got the idea with HA, which is basically a class for the dedicated now, HX should follow suit in my opinion.

A general nerf to crossbows with a crossbow damage related skill would prevent redonkeylous crossbow builds dealing their maximal potential damage while being incredibly fast and accurate, that would be nice too.
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: Konrax on May 28, 2013, 09:38:54 pm
So like 1500 years ago the romans sat around a table and were complaining about how the Huns horse archers were killing the sh!t out of them.

They are a good class for many reasons, horse archers I think are fair and balanced. Horse Xbow and maybe Horse Throwers need a look at for balancing.

IMHO horse xbow was always a gimmick at best, and throwers on horseback were legendary (But very rare).
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: Joker86 on May 28, 2013, 09:45:40 pm
You guys should stop crying, before someone finds out you're a bunch of whiney bitches.  There's literally 15 of these types of threads from the last 30 days.

I agree with Cracka on this. It's again that lobbying I don't like at all. Especially since it is always aiming on a solution which brings only short termed relief, but on long term the problems persist, because only the symptoms are being cured, but not the cause. The annoyance of being shot as infantryman or having to chase down mounted ranged has nothing to do with damage and accuracy values.

Sometimes the cRPG community seems to me like people who complain about bad economy, and want more money. And the government simply prints more money, which hels for some time but only increases inflation, and when people lack money again they again cry for more of it and the government again prints more money. We all know how such things end. A game which is completely overnerfed but still has the basic issues from the beginning won't keep its playerbase on long term.
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on May 28, 2013, 09:46:46 pm
And the knights of agincourt complained about the dirty archers. 

I'm assuming they didn't cry the next time they encountered archers, they tried to change their tactics to overcome the archer stack. 

That's why I love this game so much, you need to continually adapt to the conditions on the battle field.  Or you can just pitch a bitch on the forums and hope the devs take up your cause. 
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: Adamar on May 28, 2013, 09:53:23 pm
I'd like a week of 1 and a half years or so worth of nerfs reversed. So we can all experience the game how it was just after slots where added.

Or just a couple of days, to put things in perspective.
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on May 28, 2013, 09:57:59 pm
I'd like a week of 1 and a half years or so worth of nerfs reversed. So we can all experience the game how it was just after slots where added.

Or just a couple of days, to put things in perspective.

I think that would be awesome as well.  The slots were a good system to put in place, and right around that time (or shortly after) is when I think everything was pretty well balanced.  Sure some things were stronger than they should have been, or weaker than they should have been, but nothing was so outrageous that a little bit of adaptation and teamwork couldn't over come it. 

We've had so many nerfs, and then something else becomes imbalanced, so we nerf more shit, and then that breaks something else, so obviously that means we need to nerf something else.

I don't really like all the nerfs, and wish people would suck it up, and try to change the way they're playing (to overcome the obstacle) rather than running head first into it and complaining on the forums when the obstacle doesn't move for them.
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: Teeth on May 28, 2013, 10:16:16 pm
I'd like a week of 1 and a half years or so worth of nerfs reversed. So we can all experience the game how it was just after slots where added.

Or just a couple of days, to put things in perspective.
Gimme that sheathable, balanced longspear with floorstabbing, fast turning, overhead and polestagger and I'll have a fucking amazing week. I can predict you this, ranged and support polearms will be OP, this is not just in comparison to now, they will be actually OP. People always cry about how much ranged has been nerfed, but so have support polearms. It is simple to explain why:

Blocking skill increases and increases in attacking abilities do not make up for this. The relative increase in blocking skill causes that killing things in straight melee gets harder and therefore classes which are relatively unaffected by this increase in blocking skill get a comparative advantage. These classes are ranged and support polearms which will slowly get too strong and need to be adjusted.
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: Joker86 on May 28, 2013, 10:19:52 pm
Gimme that sheathable, balanced longspear with floorstabbing, fast turning, overhead and polestagger and I'll have a fucking amazing week. I can predict you this, ranged and support polearms will be OP, this is not just in comparison to now, they will be actually OP. People always cry about how much ranged has been nerfed, but so have support polearms. It is simple to explain why:

Blocking skill increases and increases in attacking abilities do not make up for this. The relative increase in blocking skill causes that killing things in straight melee gets harder and therefore classes which are relatively unaffected by this increase in blocking skill get a comparative advantage. These classes are ranged and support polearms which will slowly get too strong and need to be adjusted.

Interesting observation.  :D
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: ROHYPNOL on May 28, 2013, 10:24:24 pm
SHIT PISS ASS MOTHER FUCKING FUCKERS IT IS NERF OR NOTHING!!!!!!

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Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: Adamar on May 28, 2013, 10:31:02 pm
Gimme that sheathable, balanced longspear with floorstabbing, fast turning, overhead and polestagger and I'll have a fucking amazing week. I can predict you this, ranged and support polearms will be OP, this is not just in comparison to now, they will be actually OP. People always cry about how much ranged has been nerfed, but so have support polearms. It is simple to explain why:

Blocking skill increases and increases in attacking abilities do not make up for this. The relative increase in blocking skill causes that killing things in straight melee gets harder and therefore classes which are relatively unaffected by this increase in blocking skill get a comparative advantage. These classes are ranged and support polearms which will slowly get too strong and need to be adjusted.

I'd just like people to have a taste of it, regardless.
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: MrShine on May 28, 2013, 10:49:26 pm
Light xbow got bumped up to 2 slots; people either forgot this or are ignoring it deliberately. This forced HX to reduce their versatility or damage substantially.

Also HA are currently the most pathetically laughable class in terms of battlefield threat: yes there are some heavy hitters, but when you say "give HX the HA treatment" you really mean "take a huge dump on HX".
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: Paul on May 28, 2013, 10:54:37 pm
I want the old armor/soak values and a buff to all melee classes instead.

Yes, those were great times when 1h and weaker 2h would randomly bounce against heavy armor on every 2nd hit - even on good hits - thanks to the almighty soak. Good days indeed with tin cans swinging their heavy weapons not really needing to know how to block as long they kept away from their own kind.

Coincidently such a change would be great for today's poleaxers. 1 and 2 hit kills would be far more likely thanks to the higher max damage because of the less dominant armor reduce, while the stronger soak would not really affect the high damage weapons. Combined with heavy armor this would be really nice: their ability to land first strikes grants them more kills while forcing the shielders and agi whores to use holds if they don't want to randomly bounce.

Great idea.
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: Rebelyell on May 28, 2013, 11:09:15 pm
Yes, those were great times when 1h and weaker 2h would randomly bounce against heavy armor on every 2nd hit - even on good hits - thanks to the almighty soak. Good days indeed with tin cans swinging their heavy weapons not really needing to know how to block as long they kept away from their own kind.

Coincidently such a change would be great for today's poleaxers. 1 and 2 hit kills would be far more likely thanks to the higher max damage because of the less dominant armor reduce, while the stronger soak would not really affect the high damage weapons. Combined with heavy armor this would be really nice: their ability to land first strikes grants them more kills while forcing the shielders and agi whores to use holds if they don't want to randomly bounce.

Great idea.
next patch?
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: Strudog on May 28, 2013, 11:53:44 pm
Gimme that sheathable, balanced longspear with floorstabbing, fast turning, overhead and polestagger and I'll have a fucking amazing week. I can predict you this, ranged and support polearms will be OP, this is not just in comparison to now, they will be actually OP. People always cry about how much ranged has been nerfed, but so have support polearms. It is simple to explain why:


I was never a LS in those days but that sounds amazing, but people will cry no matter what because they expect to always win.
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: NuberT on May 28, 2013, 11:56:33 pm
Yes, those were great times when 1h and weaker 2h would randomly bounce against heavy armor on every 2nd hit - even on good hits - thanks to the almighty soak. Good days indeed with tin cans swinging their heavy weapons not really needing to know how to block as long they kept away from their own kind.

Coincidently such a change would be great for today's poleaxers. 1 and 2 hit kills would be far more likely thanks to the higher max damage because of the less dominant armor reduce, while the stronger soak would not really affect the high damage weapons. Combined with heavy armor this would be really nice: their ability to land first strikes grants them more kills while forcing the shielders and agi whores to use holds if they don't want to randomly bounce.

Great idea.
Sarcasm detected :D. I think you are exaggerating a little though^^. Well I don't know what is worse? Swings hitting from every angle with 0 momentum for full damage or swings bouncing like intended by warband devs, witch made it possible to actually fight back in groupfights, instead of beeing stunned all the time..
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: Kafein on May 29, 2013, 02:13:00 am
I agree with Cracka on this. It's again that lobbying I don't like at all. Especially since it is always aiming on a solution which brings only short termed relief, but on long term the problems persist, because only the symptoms are being cured, but not the cause. The annoyance of being shot as infantryman or having to chase down mounted ranged has nothing to do with damage and accuracy values.

Sometimes the cRPG community seems to me like people who complain about bad economy, and want more money. And the government simply prints more money, which hels for some time but only increases inflation, and when people lack money again they again cry for more of it and the government again prints more money. We all know how such things end. A game which is completely overnerfed but still has the basic issues from the beginning won't keep its playerbase on long term.

Seriously now, only Germans know how that ends. It seems a majority of the public in other countries are stupid and uneducated enough to be stuck in keynesian economics.

Blocking skill increases and increases in attacking abilities do not make up for this. The relative increase in blocking skill causes that killing things in straight melee gets harder and therefore classes which are relatively unaffected by this increase in blocking skill get a comparative advantage. These classes are ranged and support polearms which will slowly get too strong and need to be adjusted.

This so much



Also about soak and reduce, while it was a very good idea to nerf soak to avoid random bouncing, I think that's part of the reason hiltslashing is so easy in cRPG. The problem is that current reduce values enable dedicated STR melee builds to survive way too many melee hits.
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: Carthan on May 29, 2013, 03:37:01 am
I find their damage excessive...
....HA and HX can avoid any kind of combat while dishing out damage....
....these classes should not be too strong or their popularity will ruin the game....

its very obvious there is a big epidemic of them.

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Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: Konrax on May 29, 2013, 04:05:57 am
NA is the mightiest server and most far advanced in the arts of simulated medieval combat.

Euro just thinks they have the title for nostalgia purposes.
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: rufio on May 29, 2013, 05:00:50 am
keep thread on topic plz, no soak value bs, gj on pointing out the QQ you so pro yo you must be great playa, i bet you rip shit up and dont care because brain big. but hey i made this post suggesting maybe implementing a crosshair moving more in ballance with riders speed to ballance game
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. idc yo i haz 35 lvl main nearly 36 yo i have 4 shield skill and 1 handed sword in pocket yo, i even puts shield on back for nudge abuse so cool i am, ontop of that i haz 2 hander op big sword like gutz from berserk and slaughter bitches erry day, fully loomed yo, care face when i tryhard always valour yo. evenz on mah skip the fun all same brah, true story cant lie because reality, but maybe i get soft and get abit of feelz for mod and want game stay cool and awesome. but hey you na gangstaz cleary no big barkz and real bitz. shit booiiiiiiii
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Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: Tibe on May 29, 2013, 05:14:11 am
Another QQIshouldbeshootingradioactivelavaoutofmy2h thread by Rufio.
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: rufio on May 29, 2013, 05:17:56 am
maggot go fondle panos ballz shitnab
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: Rumblood on May 29, 2013, 05:36:43 am
its very obvious there is a big epidemic of them , they have no problem hitting their arrows/bolts, and the damage, specially on xbows is sick, specially since they nearly always shoot from an elevated position witch increases damage right? i would like to see them get a moving crosshair when riding, would ballance it out imo. discuss.

Or you could, you know, ask for more city maps instead of running to the forums crying nerf after every open plains map  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: rufio on May 29, 2013, 10:30:18 am
ye lets bring out a special server, called urban assault, that will ballance game, good thinking there brah
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: Strudog on May 29, 2013, 10:55:45 am
keep thread on topic plz, no soak value bs, gj on pointing out the QQ you so pro yo you must be great playa, i bet you rip shit up and dont care because brain big. but hey i made this post suggesting maybe implementing a crosshair moving more in ballance with riders speed to ballance game
(click to show/hide)
. idc yo i haz 35 lvl main nearly 36 yo i have 4 shield skill and 1 handed sword in pocket yo, i even puts shield on back for nudge abuse so cool i am, ontop of that i haz 2 hander op big sword like gutz from berserk and slaughter bitches erry day, fully loomed yo, care face when i tryhard always valour yo. evenz on mah skip the fun all same brah, true story cant lie because reality, but maybe i get soft and get abit of feelz for mod and want game stay cool and awesome. but hey you na gangstaz cleary no big barkz and real bitz. shit booiiiiiiii
(click to show/hide)

and you are still bad
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: rufio on May 29, 2013, 11:04:48 am
fight me for gold or forever be silent, templar merc scum!!
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: Angellore on May 29, 2013, 11:08:24 am
I made some quick tests yesterday with Perverz.
I went my lvl 30 2h hero with Heraldic Transitional Armor, Heavy Gauntlets and Sallet with Visor and Coif. Perverz went HX with Light Crossbow +3, Steel Bolts +3 and Desert Horse +3.

1) Firstly we did standing tests, we were standing about 5 meters from each other:
He needed 5 chest hits to kill me, so standing damage is completely fine imo.
Head hit took me about 60% of my HP, so 2 head hits would kill me, which is also fine imo.
Hand hit took me just 10-15% of HP, which is ridiculously low.

2) Next we tried damage with average HX speed:
It took him 4 hits in chest to kill me, so it's also fine imo.
Headshot this way takes most of my HP (like 80%), but don't kill me.
Hand hits are still pathetic.

3) Then we tried full speed HX:
One chest hit took about 50% from my HP, another one about 40%. So after 2 hits I had just about 10% HP left.
One head hit kills.

My summary, after this test:
- High speed damage bonus is too big, it should be reduced. Right now full speed bonus gives you about twice the damage of standing HX, which is surely too much.
- Standing and average speed riding HX does fine damage, it don't need to be reduced, it's not even close that much as some people here claims.
- Hand hits damage is pathetic and should be buffed. When enemy "dances" infront of you, you will most of the time look at his side, so it's huge chance hit will be hand hit. I think this could be overal ranged problem, hand hits damage reduction is too high.
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: peter_afca7 on May 29, 2013, 11:08:46 am
fight me for gold or forever be silent, templar merc scum!!
no offence but don“t do it rufio
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: rufio on May 29, 2013, 12:37:36 pm
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u did this all while u were standing still? could try moving towards him to. ah well atleast cool that youre testing stuff.
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: Panos on May 29, 2013, 12:42:06 pm
My money is on strudog.
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: rufio on May 29, 2013, 12:55:26 pm
get a booky going panos, maybe it will be more profitable if i win, cant say no to that
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on May 29, 2013, 12:59:22 pm
I don't even like Rufio, but let's be real, he'd win, I bet 25k on him winning a first to five vs Strudog, you wanna do the bet Panos?
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: rufio on May 29, 2013, 01:02:46 pm
player generated content right here brah, mod alive  :P
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: Strudog on May 29, 2013, 01:20:28 pm
You may find this as an excuse but im not seen as a great dueler (maybe because i use a polearm :D) but i will give it a shot.
How about making it STF 2h alts? same gear and all that.

Or do you need your lvl 35 2h?
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: Berserkadin on May 29, 2013, 01:24:36 pm
The more ranged get nerfed, the more scrubs wants to nerf ranged, don't give these whiny ass bitches what they want.
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on May 29, 2013, 03:30:15 pm
ye lets bring out a special server, called urban assault, that will ballance game, good thinking there brah

Most of the NA1 maps are urban maps with lots of buildings and artificial structures to provide cover, gotta imagine most of the EU battle maps are the same.  I personally think the best teamwork happens on open plains/steppe maps.  If we played more of those maps, people might get used to fighting with teammates more often.

And I love Vandal's picture, it's so true.  People tend to suck it up more in NA it seems like, not as much whining about how other people are playing wrong.  People tend to try and adapt and change to what's going on in the battle, they don't usually come on the forums and pitch a bitch because of the way other people are choosing to play. 

I don't get why Rufio and strudog have beef, they both like to bitch and complain about ranged and horse ranged classes, you'd think they'd be best of buddies.
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: Gurnisson on May 29, 2013, 04:16:08 pm
- High speed damage bonus is too big, it should be reduced. Right now full speed bonus gives you about twice the damage of standing HX, which is surely too much.

This, said it before. I played HX before they made the speed bonus of your own horse add to the damage and the damage was at a more bearable level back then.
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: Teeth on May 29, 2013, 06:55:31 pm
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I presume you only did this once each? The random factor in damage is like 10% and the random factor for armour soak and reduce is even more  random. Combined you can get as much as 40% deviation due to random factors with all else equal, as far as I know. Which means that doing these tests once, especially when it comes to 2 or 3 shotting, will not allow you to draw any useful conclusions.

Still I appreciate the test, if you are correct then the added damage from speed bonus is ridiculous and completely unrealistic, I think that could use a reduction. A horse moving does not influence the speed of a bolt all that much. Although maybe base damage should just be reduced so that doing full speed shots is the only way to get some real damage. Although completely unrealistic and dumb, it would add a layer of skill to the class and higher risk as well, as you need to move towards your target at high speed.

Either of these two changes seem fitting to me, with the first being more realistic, but the second one being more interesting.
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: Araxiel on May 29, 2013, 08:08:52 pm
Using +3 heavy gauntlets (+15body armor) and regular milanese plate (+59body armor) = 74body armor. HX shoots me from behind. I was running away from it. I have 18str and 6if which makes 65hp if i am not mistaken. And that single shot takes this much hp:

Bolt on my back and my hp and the hx reloading
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My STR and IF in case you don't believe me
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This is not fun at all.
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: Angellore on May 29, 2013, 08:23:10 pm
Teeth - we repeated that test twice to the chest while standing (about 10 hits overal). Other tests were done once (just few hits to kill me), because we didn't have much time (strategus battle was comming).
Araxiel - that sounds more like you were hit by Arbalester, who you just didn't notice.
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: Rumblood on May 29, 2013, 08:55:29 pm
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u did this all while u were standing still? could try moving towards him to. ah well atleast cool that youre testing stuff.

Geezus, it is plainly stated in the post and in your quote that both standing still and two different speeds of the horse were used in the test, then gave a fact based conclusion. If you want people to give a damn about your complaint, take the time to read the information posted by someone who took the time to test the factors involved instead of racing to the reply button after 2 words.
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: Teeth on May 29, 2013, 09:07:54 pm
I don't even like Rufio, but let's be real, he'd win, I bet 25k on him winning a first to five vs Strudog, you wanna do the bet Panos?
I'll take that bet
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on May 29, 2013, 09:14:19 pm
I have no experience with Rufio or Strudog, but I'd bet against Zlisch for shits and giggles.

Who's going to be the bookie on this? 
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: rufio on May 29, 2013, 09:32:04 pm
i was hoping for a main vs main for the roleplay factor strudog, and fyi i am hardly considered a top grade duel person either, never really go on eu3, but il let you decide what the terms are what you feel comfortable with, stf 2handers same gear would be nice but it would also mean we are fighting with weapons we arent used to, and specially you since youre a polearm player. but ye your choice. also idc who wins, if i win i wont rub it in or enything, and i already find it great that youre up for the challenge.

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__________________
Geezus, it is plainly stated in the post and in your quote that both standing still and two different speeds of the horse were used in the test, then gave a fact based conclusion. If you want people to give a damn about your complaint, take the time to read the information posted by someone who took the time to test the factors involved instead of racing to the reply button after 2 words.

retorical question bro, also stating the test is semi useless used on a stationary target.
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_______
Most of the NA1 maps are urban maps with lots of buildings and artificial structures to provide cover, gotta imagine most of the EU battle maps are the same.  I personally think the best teamwork happens on open plains/steppe maps.  If we played more of those maps, people might get used to fighting with teammates more often.

And I love Vandal's picture, it's so true.  People tend to suck it up more in NA it seems like, not as much whining about how other people are playing wrong.  People tend to try and adapt and change to what's going on in the battle, they don't usually come on the forums and pitch a bitch because of the way other people are choosing to play. 

I don't get why Rufio and strudog have beef, they both like to bitch and complain about ranged and horse ranged classes, you'd think they'd be best of buddies.

the mini beef is there because of the long history between mercs - nords, templars - nords, since we have always been enemys in strat and rivals in clantournaments,  this challenge arrose when strudog awnsered my trollpost with saying i suck monkeyballs or something in those lines yaknow. on a serieus note i have no real quarrel with strudog as a reallife person, and am even starting to like his good sportsmanship.

Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on May 29, 2013, 09:32:11 pm
Teeth, sorry, but I only am willing to bet 25k, and I'd rather take Husebys money.
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on May 29, 2013, 09:39:06 pm
Teeth, sorry, but I only am willing to bet 25k, and I'd rather take Husebys money.

I'm a pretty poor bastard, but I'll take you up on that bet...I doubt strudog or Rufio would be happy that they won if I was the one betting on them :D
Title: Re: horse ranged.
Post by: Strudog on May 29, 2013, 10:16:26 pm
i was hoping for a main vs main for the roleplay factor strudog, and fyi i am hardly considered a top grade duel person either, never really go on eu3, but il let you decide what the terms are what you feel comfortable with, stf 2handers same gear would be nice but it would also mean we are fighting with weapons we arent used to, and specially you since youre a polearm player. but ye your choice. also idc who wins, if i win i wont rub it in or enything, and i already find it great that youre up for the challenge.

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My Build:

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Mains is fine

and by the way its all in good jest