cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Require on May 28, 2013, 04:53:10 am

Title: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Require on May 28, 2013, 04:53:10 am
I honestly don't know why it was removed. Every class could do it, it was a more "elite" fighting style. Fighting was so much better when you could do this. Even though some people spammed it.. all you had to do was stab.. It seemed like a pretty balanced mechanic. Why was it taken out?
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: FrugFrug on May 28, 2013, 05:10:56 am
You can still chamber while kicking.
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Matey on May 28, 2013, 05:11:20 am
I honestly don't know why it was removed. Every class could do it, it was a more "elite" fighting style. Fighting was so much better when you could do this. Even though some people spammed it.. all you had to do was stab.. It seemed like a pretty balanced mechanic. Why was it taken out?

shielders couldnt do it and people without stab weapons couldnt stab.
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Legs on May 28, 2013, 05:19:23 am
Why was it taken out?

It made shielders cry because skilled players were able to defeat their omni-block turtle shell.
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Duster on May 28, 2013, 05:21:04 am
It was a broken mechanic allowing the backpedal-er to throw out kicks without consequences, which is (bad)
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Kaoklai on May 28, 2013, 06:24:53 am
You can still use kicks to great effect, you just can't throw them out thoughtlessly after every single attack anymore.  Also, lol @ calling old kicks "elite." 
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Strudog on May 28, 2013, 08:47:15 am
The kicks were a little OP, but they are fine now, shielders are still as stupid as they used to be
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Herkkutatti666 on May 28, 2013, 08:53:14 am
Kick and block would be a lot better than this OP nudge shit.
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Smoothrich on May 28, 2013, 09:23:32 am
I never block and always spammed kicks anyways, if anything they are more OP since I almost always connected with them regardless of having to block, and now the kick radius is super large and stupid. Only good players dip them and punish me, as it should be.
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: peter_afca7 on May 28, 2013, 11:22:39 am
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

i lol'd at the +1 kick spammer #1

kick range should be the same as before just no blocking
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Legs on May 28, 2013, 11:50:37 am
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

i lol'd at the +1 kick spammer #1

kick range should be the same as before just no blocking

QQ nerf skill.

It's a sad day when the cRPG devs start pandering to less skilled players.
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Corsair831 on May 28, 2013, 01:13:22 pm
and add jump kicking pls, you should also be able to block whilst jump kicking
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: peter_afca7 on May 28, 2013, 01:23:43 pm
QQ nerf skill.

It's a sad day when the cRPG devs start pandering to less skilled players.
well it aint skill if you can just spam E while blocking just wait till you finnaly hit then slash WAUW high skill lvl reached
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: dreadnok on May 28, 2013, 02:22:47 pm
It made shielders cry because skilled players were able to defeat their omni-block turtle shell.

What the fuck makes you elite? All you do is non stop side swing. Shielder is def harder than 2h by far. You get hit every time you try and swing as a Shielder.  Just spec 2h and long pole arm users and you will see " elite skillz"
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: dreadnok on May 28, 2013, 02:24:31 pm
I got kicked by a guy who had his back to me and kicked forward. They are beyond fucked right now
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: BlueKnight on May 28, 2013, 02:38:20 pm
Why would you kick now if you can nudge?
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: owens on May 28, 2013, 02:53:26 pm
Old kicks are bad they benefit backpeddlers and really worked in the wrong way. They should help an offensive player not someone walking backwards. The way it is now makes sense.


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Teeth on May 28, 2013, 03:43:19 pm
Scrubs calling kicking a thing for the skilled, hah. In cRPG the kicks have a bazillion range and you can even turn them a little, half the time they hit when you clearly didn't. Kicks are OP enough as is, I say reduce the range and arc back to Native as well. Kicking simply rewards backpedalling players which is not a good thing at all.
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Gurnisson on May 28, 2013, 03:45:32 pm
I say reduce the range and arc back to Native as well.

^
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Angantyr on May 28, 2013, 03:51:37 pm
^
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: BlueKnight on May 28, 2013, 04:23:29 pm
Kicking simply rewards backpedalling players which is not a good thing at all.
So kicking isn't a punishment for facehugging at all?...
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on May 28, 2013, 04:26:25 pm
If you facehug and got no idea on how to dodge/chamberkick you deserve to get kicked, kicking isn't really OP, this is coming from someone with a 90 reach sword. Kickblocking also sucked though.
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Lord_Bernie_of_Voodoo on May 28, 2013, 04:36:40 pm
No, what should happen is that kicks should actually stop attacks again.
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Count_Grishnackh on May 28, 2013, 05:40:48 pm
It should not be put back in the game, tho they should balance this nudge shit.
Its too easy to dodge and leftswing people in the head now cause it gives no time to recover and block again, while you got no problem doing that after a kick.
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: ThePoopy on May 28, 2013, 05:45:58 pm
Old kick and remove stagger.
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Jarlek on May 28, 2013, 05:50:16 pm
well it aint skill if you can just spam E while blocking just wait till you finnaly hit then slash WAUW high skill lvl reached
Don't be silly pygar.
(click to show/hide)

Serious answer: kicking is too much an aid for boring backpedaling play. I'd rather have them give more advantages to W-key heroes than S-key heroes.

It's about what type of gameplay you want to support. We didn't want kiting archers, so they increased arrow weight. We don't want S-key kickspammers, so they removed blocking for it. The added reach and turning while kicking was a mistake, though.
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Kafein on May 28, 2013, 06:40:27 pm
Ho noes, now you actually have to make sure you hit when you kick => SKILL SOOO NERFED

tbh I kick even more now, as a shielder you learn to kick exactly when you should, and that's when you don't miss.

So kicking isn't a punishment for facehugging at all?...

For you, using a short weapon is reason enough for punishment ?
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Require on May 28, 2013, 11:54:00 pm
No, what should happen is that kicks should actually stop attacks again.
Agreed. I cant kick people before they hit me and still be hit by the blade...
*Edit*
Scrubs calling kicking a thing for the skilled, hah. In cRPG the kicks have a bazillion range and you can even turn them a little, half the time they hit when you clearly didn't. Kicks are OP enough as is, I say reduce the range and arc back to Native as well. Kicking simply rewards backpedalling players which is not a good thing at all.

Would everyone like to know how to stop kick spammers? It's a secret called.. STABBING. Seriously you guys act like there was no stopping kicks. If you didn't know.  :|
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Matey on May 29, 2013, 12:01:00 am
Agreed. I cant kick people before they hit me and still be hit by the blade...
*Edit*
Would everyone like to know how to stop kick spammers? It's a secret called.. STABBING. Seriously you guys act like there was no stopping kicks. If you didn't know.  :|

stabbing is great except when you have a weapon with no stab or when you have a weapon that glances 10-100% of the time depending on angle, weapon damage and enemy body armour. Oh and the fact that you have to start stabbing BEFORE they start kicking, so you can spam nothing but stabs against a kicker and maybe do ok... unless they also know how to chamber in which case you are fucked because you cant block a thrust chamber.
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Require on May 29, 2013, 12:08:14 am
stabbing is great except when you have a weapon with no stab or when you have a weapon that glances 10-100% of the time depending on angle, weapon damage and enemy body armour. Oh and the fact that you have to start stabbing BEFORE they start kicking, so you can spam nothing but stabs against a kicker and maybe do ok... unless they also know how to chamber in which case you are fucked because you cant block a thrust chamber.
Every weapon has its own perks. Mauls do crush-through. Just because every other weapon that doesn't do crush-through doesn't mean its a broken mechanic. Now I see the problem with having to stab before the kick takes place... which could be fixed.. not removed.
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Matey on May 29, 2013, 12:41:18 am
the old kick with block was very low risk with very high reward; now its like moderate risk with very high reward (i say moderate risk cause it has good reach and hits people who arent even in front of you). kicking could use more nerfing, not buffing.
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: San on May 29, 2013, 01:51:43 am
Kicks could have nice range and all, but I would like the visual kick hitbox to be accurate on your screen so a skilled player can dodge and punish properly. Alter the animation if you have to, but nothing is more aggravating than getting punished when you thought you had visually dodged something on your screen.

No active kick when your leg is pulling back
No ghost kicks (kick has proper reach and visually follows your turn properly).
Getting hit interrupts kick

Kicks still need tweaks imo.
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: slimpyman on May 29, 2013, 06:40:07 am
I honestly don't know why it was removed. Every class could do it, it was a more "elite" fighting style. Fighting was so much better when you could do this. Even though some people spammed it.. all you had to do was stab.. It seemed like a pretty balanced mechanic. Why was it taken out?

i liked block kicking.
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Miley on May 29, 2013, 09:56:38 am
shielders couldnt do it and people without stab weapons couldnt stab.

How would a shield kick and still block with a shield--for the same reason you couldn't block down. I agree with Require though I miss my kicks :( Even though I don't play much anymore
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Kafein on May 29, 2013, 11:37:02 am
People thinking kicks got removed because of this need to learn how to land their kicks.
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Jarlek on May 29, 2013, 12:06:41 pm
Kicks could have nice range and all, but I would like the visual kick hitbox to be accurate on your screen so a skilled player can dodge and punish properly. Alter the animation if you have to, but nothing is more aggravating than getting punished when you thought you had visually dodged something on your screen.

No active kick when your leg is pulling back
No ghost kicks (kick has proper reach and visually follows your turn properly).
Getting hit interrupts kick

Kicks still need tweaks imo.
This so much.

Nothing is more annoying than hitting a kicker, only to get hit by the kick and then hit yourself.
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Kafein on May 29, 2013, 01:53:20 pm
This so much.

Nothing is more annoying than hitting a kicker, only to get hit by the kick and then hit yourself.

Being hit after having kicked someone is quite annoying too, but that almost never happens
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Require on May 29, 2013, 02:27:05 pm
People thinking kicks got removed because of this need to learn how to land their kicks.
Because of what exactly? I think landing kicks now is much easier than before... I just liked the old system better.. It would be a nice counter for this OP nudge system going on. I mean really guys, remove kick blocking.. add something that is incredibly unbalanced instead? Derp.
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: peter_afca7 on May 29, 2013, 02:29:06 pm
Because of what exactly? I think landing kicks now is much easier than before... I just liked the old system better.. It would be a nice counter for this OP nudge system going on. I mean really guys, remove kick blocking.. add something that is incredibly unbalanced instead? Derp.
ye just take the old kick system but without blocking
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Require on May 29, 2013, 02:35:18 pm
ye just take the old kick system but without blocking
Kicks would become very rarely used at that point. Landing a perfect kick in the old system only worked if you were "hugged". Too easy to avoid the kicks in the old system. At least for me anyhow (with any class)
*Edit
^ which is also why I view block kicking a more "elite" thing to do. It was easy to dodge once you learned how. Sure I would occasionally get kicked, but that's my fault for not dodging it. Amirite?
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Require on May 29, 2013, 02:46:13 pm
QQ nerf skill.

It's a sad day when the cRPG devs start pandering to less skilled players.
It seems like this is what's happpening. People are crying kicking was OP in the old system when they never learned how to dodge or counter it with another kick.
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Butan on May 29, 2013, 02:56:52 pm
Blocking with kicking was not low-risk, it was average-risk because :

- when you kick you cant rotate your body
- if the kick misses, the enemy is out of range or at your left/right
- the enemy can hit you from behind if they move around your left/right
- the enemy can kill you even if you kick-block


A cooldown on kick would have been smarter, now if you kick you're most likely very sure you're going to land it, or you're dead.

You're almost never sure you're going to land it

=> people stop kicking

=> less gameplay elements

=> less fun

GG cRPG

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Require on May 29, 2013, 03:00:12 pm
Blocking with kicking was not low-risk, it was average-risk because :

- when you kick you cant rotate your body
- if the kick misses, the enemy is out of range or at your left/right
- the enemy can hit you from behind if they move around your left/right
- the enemy can kill you even if you kick-block


A cooldown on kick would have been smarter, now if you kick you're most likely very sure you're going to land it, or you're dead.

You're almost never sure you're going to land it

=> people stop kicking

=> less gameplay elements

=> less fun

GG cRPG
Completely Agreed. Well put Sir.
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Kafein on May 29, 2013, 03:11:39 pm
Why kicking when you know you will miss ?

Besides, even now when you miss you can block quite fast and your enemy has a very short time to take advantage of it, it barely gets me killed more than one half of the time when I'm naked.
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Require on May 29, 2013, 03:29:21 pm
Why kicking when you know you will miss ?

Besides, even now when you miss you can block quite fast and your enemy has a very short time to take advantage of it, it barely gets me killed more than one half of the time when I'm naked.
So.. are you changing your stance on the view that kicking isn't OP? Because you're contradicting yourself now if you agree with his statement. I want a serious reasoning behind this, not some petty "It's OP", "Because not all weapon can stab", "It's unbalanced because shielders can't do it" because I believe I've refuted all those statements in earlier threads.

Now I do agree with matey in the fact that it could use POSSIBLY some adjustment with the kick blocking but not REMOVED.
*Edit
My bad if I misinterpreted you're position on the topic
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Kafein on May 29, 2013, 03:35:42 pm
I never said kicking as a whole is horribly OP.


Kicking with blocking was sort of OP because you could spam it without penalty. It's a good thing to make kicks more risky, and this is why not being to block while your kick is nice, and also more balanced.

Current kicks are sort of OP because of the range buff, but at least now all classes are more or less equal when it comes to doing kicks. Those with short weapons are still dominating the receiving end by a huge margin, though.
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on May 29, 2013, 03:38:39 pm
How would a shield kick and still block with a shield--for the same reason you couldn't block down. I agree with Require though I miss my kicks :( Even though I don't play much anymore

You'd hold the shield on the side of your body, or you'd hold it above your leg...

I'd prefer they bring back the old kicks (with native reach/width) rather than what we have now (feels like this visitors can't see pics , please register or login
)
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Require on May 29, 2013, 03:44:39 pm
Kicking with blocking was sort of OP because you could spam it without penalty.
I think Butan refuted this statement with his previous points.
*edit typo
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: LordLargos on May 29, 2013, 05:00:30 pm
Kicking also no longer seems to cancel attacks. Over half the time I kick someone they get hit by the kick, but thier swing still goes through.
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Require on May 29, 2013, 05:05:29 pm
Kicking also no longer seems to cancel attacks, Over half the time I kick someone they get hit by the kick but thier swing still goes through.
Something they NEED to fix.
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Duster on May 29, 2013, 05:13:22 pm
Kicking also no longer seems to cancel attacks, Over half the time I kick someone they get hit by the kick but thier swing still goes through.

The only times I have troubles with kicks are when the kick lands too late, triggering what you're talking about, and in strat battles when oftentimes they don't land at all (which I have a feeling is because of the server load/ping difference).
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Teeth on May 29, 2013, 05:49:51 pm
Would everyone like to know how to stop kick spammers? It's a secret called.. STABBING. Seriously you guys act like there was no stopping kicks. If you didn't know.  :|
I you didn't know, you could block stabs just fine while kicking. Guess no one figured that out in NA, but the kickspammers here all did it.
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on May 29, 2013, 06:11:13 pm
I've always carried a shield, but I'm pretty sure if you were holding down block before you kicked, you kept on holding it?

Can't say it was really an issue on NA, but then again, not all weapons have stab on them. 
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Zanze on May 29, 2013, 06:17:57 pm
A kick was meant to be high risk high reward, if you can block and kick where is the risk? Adapt.

Now if only they made kicking share a cooldown with nudging...
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Tydeus on May 29, 2013, 06:25:24 pm
I you didn't know, you could block stabs just fine while kicking. Guess no one figured that out in NA, but the kickspammers here all did it.
No, most NA players just suffer from memory loss and forgot about that.
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Jarlek on May 29, 2013, 06:47:54 pm
A kick was meant to be high risk high reward, if you can block and kick where is the risk? Adapt.

Now if only they made kicking share a cooldown with nudging...
That's actually a pretty good idea.
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Kafein on May 29, 2013, 07:03:35 pm
I don't really like the idea of cooldowns longer than the animation. There's no physical reason preventing you from spamming kicks, and if you need a cooldown for balance reasons, there's probably a deeper problem with the capacity. The main reason I don't like it is because the user has to remember an arbitrary time interval in order to maximize his effectiveness in order to use the ability well, instead of analysing the situations in which you should kick/nudge/whatever. The former means it's always beneficial to use the ability when you can (which was largely true with the old kicks), the latter means you have to read the game.

Also kicks definitely had low risk

Blocking with kicking was not low-risk, it was average-risk because :

- when you kick you cant rotate your body

Unless your enemy is extremely close to you and is also sidestepping very fast, on regular flat terrain and actively avoiding a kick, this isn't a problem given the length of this state

- if the kick misses, the enemy is out of range or at your left/right
- the enemy can hit you from behind if they move around your left/right
- the enemy can kill you even if you kick-block

He is only out of range if your weapon is shorter than kick range. You can only get really punished if the enemy gets in your back


A cooldown on kick would have been smarter, now if you kick you're most likely very sure you're going to land it, or you're dead.

You don't miss your kick, or you may be hit once if you are a little bit unlucky. First off, you shouldn't miss. It's not that hard to refrain from attempting kicks all the time, and there are many situations in which kicking is really an evident choice (more on siege maps). Second, being hit isn't that bad for you, Butan :P

You're almost never sure you're going to land it

Sure enough to try it naked, really. Against your average short weapon user kicks are super easy to land, as well as against anyone stuck or on a slope/on stairs/near a ledge. They also grant a second free hit on people that were knocked down (did that nearly three times in a row to you :D )

=> people stop kicking

=> less gameplay elements

=> less fun

GG cRPG

(click to show/hide)

People still kick, especially when they should (also you see more shielders doing kicks). It's a very powerful move and works best when unexpected, a bit like chamberblocking. It doesn't need to be spammed to be an important and interesting game mechanic. I think there's also a problem with timing on top of the current range, because kicks last so long you can be kicked after dodging it, while attempting a counterattack. A little bit like 2h stabs and overheads I should say.

Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Butan on May 29, 2013, 08:58:34 pm
Second, being hit isn't that bad for you, Butan :P


Yea, removing kick-block is a nice buff for STR whore, so I shouldnt complain  :P

But I see way less kicking attempts;

People with less than 100 HP (weaklings) and less than 60 overall armor rating (light gear), are not happy and as a spokesman for every person of this world who isnt as stronk as me, I gotta STEP UP
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Tydeus on May 29, 2013, 09:23:38 pm
That's actually a pretty good idea.
Yeah, proposed that to urist a few days ago. He informed me that unfortunately, kicks are hardcoded and thus can't be put on the same cooldown as nudges, without the use of WSE 2. That being the case, the best we could hope for is to not allow a nudge after a kick (it's the opposite that is being abused, not this). Honestly though, after the newest changes get implemented nudge + kick combos should no longer be a problem.
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Paul on May 29, 2013, 11:01:09 pm
I just thought up a way how to do it but I think I'm just too lazy. I also think it won't be needed after the changes to nudge.
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Butan on May 30, 2013, 12:07:51 am
I just thought up a way how to do it but I think I'm just too lazy. I also think it won't be needed after the changes to nudge.


Are you going to adapt nudge to other classes ? (2H/pole)
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: BlueKnight on May 30, 2013, 01:45:11 pm
For you, using a short weapon is reason enough for punishment ?
What weapon was so short that you had to be nipple to nipple with your enemy?
Title: Re: Re-add Blocking and Kicking
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on May 30, 2013, 05:16:03 pm
I you didn't know, you could block stabs just fine while kicking. Guess no one figured that out in NA, but the kickspammers here all did it.
You can still kickblock if you got 60+ bugs.