cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Glyph on May 19, 2013, 08:53:57 pm

Title: 8 attack and block directions
Post by: Glyph on May 19, 2013, 08:53:57 pm
The title says it all.
It would really improve the realism factor of the game, because the basic attack directions in both the japanese and european martial arts are based on 8 directions of attack(the earopean is based on even more actually). My suggestion is that the 8 different attacks would be: upper right, upper left, bottom right, bottom left, right(same as in current state), left(same), up(same), down(new but is kind of self-explanetory).
Of course the same would go for the block directions.

the best way to devide the mouse movement into different attacks is:
(click to show/hide)

I bet you're thinking: Where the f*ck did my stabby stabby go????!!!
Well I'm not sure, it could go anywhere really, but here's a few suggestion anyway:

-There could just be a button for it, either on the keyboard of by clicking the mousewheel(and a second button for blocking). the problem with that is that clicking a button is faster than moving your mouse to a direction and clicking your LMB.

-Another way of triggering the stab would be to keep the mouse entirely/relatively still and then clicking your LMB. But this might fuck the entire combat movement up because you have to stop your mouse from moving to stab.

-A third way to do it could be that you have to look down AND press a key/the mouse wheel. pressing the mousewheel is quite a good option, but you also need a seperate button to block.

There might even be the possibility to have a stab from a lower position and one from the upper position

This might be a fun way of challanging yourself in the game and making the game more rewarding if your really good at it because it is harder for noobs to block your attacks. On the other hand making the game harder is shit for new players that try the game.

The second problem is whether it's possible to do, hard-coding might kill this idea. Also, can the mouse register difference properly?


What do you guys think and think the issues might be with the stabbing?
Do you guys think it's a practical idea?

Open for discussion and improvement of the idea

EDIT: Does any other mod already have anything like this?
Title: Re: 8 attack and block directions
Post by: Mlekce on May 19, 2013, 09:00:56 pm
You forgot about stab,that makes it 9. It is too complicated.
Title: Re: 8 attack and block directions
Post by: Glyph on May 19, 2013, 09:01:54 pm
You forgot about stab,that makes it 9. It is too complicated.
I know but that is not a real direction imo so that's why I left it out.
Title: Re: 8 attack and block directions
Post by: BlueKnight on May 19, 2013, 10:04:14 pm
4 more ways to get teamwounded  :twisted:

I don't think it would work. Maybe it would add more precision to fighting and require better mouse movements but:
1. You lack animations for this
2. You wouldn't even need those 8 blocking directions to block so the main reason of implementing is kinda left behind. Even if 8 blocking directions got implemented it would be for gaming experience only because it's totally impractical from the fighter's point of view
3. errybody is hoplite anyway, do you think they went hoplites to get more attack directions  :lol:
4. fighting with 2+ enemies at the same time would be way harder
5. 2h epileptic feinting would be at it's finest  <---

Was thinking about it looong time ago and decided it wouldn't work. We need some goodie mechanics like newly added nudges, to develop the gameplay even more but all in all I'm satisfied with how things work now. I guess we don't need the suggested thing.
Title: Re: 8 attack and block directions
Post by: Glyph on May 19, 2013, 10:10:17 pm
4 more ways to get teamwounded  :twisted:

I don't think it would work. Maybe it would add more precision to fighting and require better mouse movements but:
1. You lack animations for this
2. You wouldn't even need those 8 blocking directions to block so the main reason of implementing is kinda left behind. Even if 8 blocking directions got implemented it would be for gaming experience only because it's totally impractical from the fighter's point of view
3. errybody is hoplite anyway, do you think they went hoplites to get more attack directions  :lol:
4. fighting with 2+ enemies at the same time would be way harder
5. 2h epileptic feinting would be at it's finest  <---

Was thinking about it looong time ago and decided it wouldn't work. We need some goodie mechanics like newly added nudges, to develop the gameplay even more but all in all I'm satisfied with how things work now. I guess we don't need the suggested thing.
true, it was just on my mind and wanted to know what you thought. though you do really need the 8 blocking directions if there are 8 attack directions, I do swordfighting myself and if you block right for an incoming upper right attack the attacker's blade will either go past yours or  the tip of your weapon will hit his incoming strike. In that scenario your power will fail and his weapon will fling yours aside and hit you in the neck.
Title: Re: 8 attack and block directions
Post by: Torben on May 19, 2013, 10:23:23 pm
wait for M:BG,  you will have a 360° attack block circle there
Title: Re: 8 attack and block directions
Post by: Glyph on May 19, 2013, 10:54:55 pm
wait for M:BG,  you will have a 360° attack block circle there
what post or message said that?(that isn't under NDA)
And I am waiting for it, but I need some good stuff to play in those 2 years :)
Title: Re: 8 attack and block directions
Post by: Torben on May 19, 2013, 11:20:45 pm
what post or message said that?(that isn't under NDA)
And I am waiting for it, but I need some good stuff to play in those 2 years :)

trust me on it,  I am sure I read it somewhere : )
Title: Re: 8 attack and block directions
Post by: zagibu on May 20, 2013, 04:34:41 am
Why not just keep the four we have and fill in 4 more between them? Would fix the stab problem at least.
Title: Re: 8 attack and block directions
Post by: Glyph on May 20, 2013, 10:01:36 am
Why not just keep the four we have and fill in 4 more between them? Would fix the stab problem at least.
then we'd have all the basic attack directions except an attack from below you mean? It could be a solution I guess, and one which is a lote easier to implement, though I'd prefer if we had an attack from below aswell. But a good option because otherwise the stab would be weird.
Title: Re: 8 attack and block directions
Post by: Macropus on May 20, 2013, 10:19:36 am
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Wait what, why not like that?
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Title: Re: 8 attack and block directions
Post by: Glyph on May 20, 2013, 10:34:59 am
Wait what, why not like that?
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good question! well, the the martial arts of the day, they had an upper-rigt, upper-left, bottom-right, bottom-left, right, left, upper and lower attack, in both the european and asian martial arts. they didn't have the attacks your suggesting.
We could be misunderstanding eachother though, with my picture I mean to show the direction the mouse should move in to make an attack. Do you aswell?


And Torben, where did you read such a thing?
Title: Re: 8 attack and block directions
Post by: Macropus on May 20, 2013, 10:54:41 am
good question! well, the the martial arts of the day, they had an upper-rigt, upper-left, bottom-right, bottom-left, right, left, upper and lower attack, in both the european and asian martial arts. they didn't have the attacks your suggesting.
We could be misunderstanding eachother though, with my picture I mean to show the direction the mouse should move in to make an attack. Do you aswell?
Haha I think I know what's the problem. I assumed that the lines are attack directions, and you assumed that the sectors are attack directions. So basically we're talking about the same exact thing.  :D
Title: Re: 8 attack and block directions
Post by: Son Of Odin on May 20, 2013, 11:03:10 am
If the lines would have been presenting the attack directions you would have been partly right. The upper lines would present the actual valid attack directions and the lower ones are more or less for defensive purposes only (a bit like chamber blocking in the current game). There is no reason to leave the stab out.
Title: Re: 8 attack and block directions
Post by: Glyph on May 20, 2013, 11:13:05 am
Haha I think I know what's the problem. I assumed that the lines are attack directions, and you assumed that the sectors are attack directions. So basically we're talking about the same exact thing.  :D
Haha thought so!

If the lines would have been presenting the attack directions you would have been partly right. The upper lines would present the actual valid attack directions and the lower ones are more or less for defensive purposes only (a bit like chamber blocking in the current game). There is no reason to leave the stab out.
Partially right? What do you mean? Lower strikes are just as valid as upper one.
Title: Re: 8 attack and block directions
Post by: Son Of Odin on May 20, 2013, 11:32:59 am
Partially right? What do you mean? Lower strikes are just as valid as upper one.

Can you swing a sword with the same destructive force and intensity (while maintaining a balanced stance) with the low strikes as you do with the upper ones? I guess not.

Doesn't change the fact that you are wrong if you think that the sectors represent actual attack directions.
Title: Re: 8 attack and block directions
Post by: Ulter on May 20, 2013, 11:39:42 am
That's an interesting idea, but new attack direction require new animations...

Also I think that the only attacks that should be added are upper-right and upper-left.
They are the most reasonable, and the most used types of attacks. Adding too many could result in too confusing fights, incresed spam etc.
Title: Re: 8 attack and block directions
Post by: Son Of Odin on May 20, 2013, 11:51:40 am
That's an interesting idea, but new attack direction require new animations...
New animations and yeah maybe too big of a cake to take. I know something about medieval fencing from Fiore styled stuff. It actually has 6 swing directions and the stab so 7 in total. Straight from up to down and down to up are not included. I don't know much about other styles tho, but straight up and down don't make any sense to me :mrgreen:
Title: Re: 8 attack and block directions
Post by: Glyph on May 20, 2013, 11:53:47 am
Can you swing a sword with the same destructive force and intensity (while maintaining a balanced stance) with the low strikes as you do with the upper ones? I guess not.

Doesn't change the fact that you are wrong if you think that the sectors represent actual attack directions.
No, nor did I say so, but people thought of the lower strikes with a reason, people wouldn't have been using those attacks for hundreds of years in multiple cultures if there isn't a reason for it would they now? If you look at the weak spots in plate armor for example there are multiple places where you can only lnad a proper hit through a lower strike. And the destructive power of a sword is more dependant on where you land your hit then how hard you hit someones helmet. I'm a sworddfighter myself RL so I'd know. having more attack directions in a combat situation makes it harder for your opponent to know how to block or evade an attack, so it is very usefull to have lower attacks in your reportoire.
Title: Re: 8 attack and block directions
Post by: Son Of Odin on May 20, 2013, 12:08:10 pm
Now you just got stuck into that one thing I said. Not the actual point that 8 swing directions + stab is too many imo. Straight up and down don't make sense.

If you hit the helmet with upper swing you are going to knock that guy out. If you hit a guy in the leg with low cut it probably does nothing against armor or wounds the leg or torso. I didn't mean that lower attacks are not useful in some places but the real force is in upper cuts :rolleyes:
Title: Re: 8 attack and block directions
Post by: Glyph on May 20, 2013, 12:24:04 pm
Now you just got stuck into that one thing I said. Not the actual point that 8 swing directions + stab is too many imo. Straight up and down don't make sense.

If you hit the helmet with upper swing you are going to knock that guy out. If you hit a guy in the leg with low cut it probably does nothing against armor or wounds the leg or torso. I didn't mean that lower attacks are not useful in some places but the real force is in upper cuts :rolleyes:
I know it's too much and for new people it'd be impossible to learn how to play. first of all, hitting someone's helmet if it's a fully enclosed one, won't do a whole lot anyway with a sword. and the "straight up" attack is not to hit the legs, but the genitals, because between the legs in a weak spot in plate armor.
BTW I know stuff about longsword fighting, not a whole lot about 1handed.
Title: Re: 8 attack and block directions
Post by: Son Of Odin on May 20, 2013, 12:36:42 pm
and the "straight up" attack is not to hit the legs, but the genitals, because between the legs in a weak spot in plate armor.
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Title: Re: 8 attack and block directions
Post by: Glyph on May 20, 2013, 12:40:29 pm
I think that is a rennaissance armor or an armor made for one of the wealthiest men in the world at that time, not the common knight.
Title: Re: 8 attack and block directions
Post by: Kafein on May 20, 2013, 12:51:29 pm
Bonerplate
Title: Re: 8 attack and block directions
Post by: Glyph on May 20, 2013, 01:09:41 pm
The thing is, hitting or slashing someone in plate armor with a sword is never really going to do anything, only stabbing in vurnable places will get you anywhere, but that is not fun in the game, nor really doable for the devs, so that is not a good reference. Though how they used swords for hundreds of years is I think, is. Longswords(or any other 2handed sword)-fighting has 24 for different attacks, excluding stabs. There is no way we can implement all those different attacks properly. Those 24 for attacks consist of 8 attacks with the front side of the blade, 8 with the backside and 8 more, but I'm not going to explain those  :wink:. we currently only have the simplest ones, with the front side of the blade. with that front side of the blade you have 8 different attacks, like I mentioned, the ones in the OP. all the different attacks have their own pros and cons, that differs from what stance you are in, your opponent is in and what you're good at. It's bullshit to think that the attacks from the bottom are useless, they pack just as hard of a punch if you hit someone right. So if we add any new attack directions, it should be the diagonal ones.
Title: Re: 8 attack and block directions
Post by: zagibu on May 20, 2013, 02:22:10 pm
Of course low slashes work. I too interpreted your circle wrong by thinking the lines were meant as directions. I think it could work if the straight low swing was replaced with the stab, but it would have to be tested if accuracy with the mouse is good enough to pull off each particular move with precision. And another difficulty is the question whether it's possible to make the animations distinctive enough to attain a similar level of blocking prowess like we have at the moment. Would be sad if it degenerated into a spam fest.
Title: Re: 8 attack and block directions
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on May 20, 2013, 03:58:29 pm
Why not just keep the four we have and fill in 4 more between them? Would fix the stab problem at least.

This!  I don't understand why the circle is sectioned off the way it is.  Why not keep the normal "north/south/east/west" directions, and just add NE/NW/SE/SW...

I think it's going to add too much complications for c-rpg, and I highly doubt it will even be considered.  That being said, why wouldn't you just keep the same 4 directions we have, and just add 4 more in between them?
Haha I think I know what's the problem. I assumed that the lines are attack directions, and you assumed that the sectors are attack directions. So basically we're talking about the same exact thing.  :D

Apparently I, too, misinterpreted the lines as being the attack directions, and not the sectors...disregard my previous comment.
Title: Re: 8 attack and block directions
Post by: Glyph on May 20, 2013, 07:22:01 pm
Of course low slashes work. I too interpreted your circle wrong by thinking the lines were meant as directions. I think it could work if the straight low swing was replaced with the stab, but it would have to be tested if accuracy with the mouse is good enough to pull off each particular move with precision. And another difficulty is the question whether it's possible to make the animations distinctive enough to attain a similar level of blocking prowess like we have at the moment. Would be sad if it degenerated into a spam fest.
I'll edit the OP then
Title: Re: 8 attack and block directions
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on May 21, 2013, 07:14:40 am
I'm working on something with a buddy to move this cluster fuck system on. But at the moment it's only using Escrima swords.

The power you put into your moust movement + direction + keyboard direction + relative position of target = type of attack. The small amount we've done so far results in pretty intense duels. Because on top of that the power you put into your moust movement + direction + keyboard direction + relative position of target = type of defence. So if you time it well you can pull an attack through. When it's complete you will be able to cause people to stumble, over balance and fall and even trip them through the way you deal with they're attack. If someone goes all out and tries to take your head off and you move and time your block perfectly you will be able to take them off balance. We are trying to decied if you should be able to knock weapons out of peoples hands or not.

This type of set up works great for Escrima because it's so insane and fast. It could work for anything but the great thing about Escrima is that we can mould a lot of stuff into the animations and hide a lot as well. The one thing I'm really concerned about though is generating latency in the controls because the more complicated we make the animations the more chance it has of starting to feel like you are locked into to them and you start to loose agency, and I don't want that. I want quick, smooth and hardcore dueling!

-----

TL:DR

I think the solution is mixing keyboard + mouse + the speed&distance of the mouse movement together to create the type of attack and it's direction. If at all possible take into account the target and body placement of your avatar, the issue with that is you need some way to lock onto targets, so it's probably not worth it really.
Title: Re: 8 attack and block directions
Post by: Glyph on May 21, 2013, 06:53:08 pm
great idea! I'd love to try something like this!
What do you mean with the power you put into your mouse movement? the speed you move your mouse at or how far you move your mouse from the starting position before moving your mouse in that direction?

And another one: What do you mean with the keyboard direction? Just the direction you're moving to?
Title: Re: 8 attack and block directions
Post by: Son Of Odin on May 21, 2013, 09:24:24 pm
Bonerplate
I want chadz to add codpieces asap!
Title: Re: 8 attack and block directions
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on May 21, 2013, 11:31:22 pm
great idea! I'd love to try something like this!
What do you mean with the power you put into your mouse movement? the speed you move your mouse at or how far you move your mouse from the starting position before moving your mouse in that direction?

And another one: What do you mean with the keyboard direction? Just the direction you're moving to?

It's a mix of both distance and speed before you release the lmb. Keyboard direction is about avatar position. If you strafe to the right and do a left to right swing you jack the power up.
Title: Re: 8 attack and block directions
Post by: sF_Guardian on May 22, 2013, 12:30:28 am
While its a good idea, there are two significant problems:
-If I am right the attacks being 4 directional is hardcodes and this not easy to change.
-Having more attack directions would cause even more silly spam and backpedaling stuff than we have right now and thus kill the game.
Title: Re: 8 attack and block directions
Post by: OttomanSniper on May 22, 2013, 06:18:59 pm
great idea, this is makes game HARD!
Title: Re: 8 attack and block directions
Post by: Glyph on May 22, 2013, 06:20:31 pm
It's a mix of both distance and speed before you release the lmb. Keyboard direction is about avatar position. If you strafe to the right and do a left to right swing you jack the power up.
great! if you need someone to test it once you've made a fisrt version of it(and I have a new pc) I'd love to do it!