cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Keshian on May 03, 2011, 10:19:37 pm
-
It just makes aesthetic sense, if you carry something on your back or in both your hands to run its two slots and the left hip and right hip are each 1 slot. Under this all the new slot changes make sense except the bastard/heavy bastard/longswords, which are carried on the hip (like strong/khergit bows and all the 1handed swords) and when you run with them they are held in one hand. They even are swung 1 handed if equipped with a shield or if you hit x. This is not some OP thing for archers/xbowmen that don't use a 0 slot item to use these weapons as 1 slot items and would make 2h/archers use more than just the spiked mace. it also makes a lot of sense because:
Katana (1h/2h) = 95 length
Bastard sword (1h/2h) = 101 length
Heavy Bastard sword (1h/2h) = 105 length
Longsword (1h/2h) = 106 length
vs.
Arabian Cavalry Sword (1h) = 105 length
Nordic Champion's Sword (1h) = 102 length
Long Espada Eslavona (1h) = 103 length
Long Arming Sword (1h) = 102 length
Shaska (1h) = 103 length
Elite Scimitar (1h) = 100 length (heavily curved so actually 115)
Would appreciate any comments and please vote in the poll. No archers/xbowman are pulling out flamberges in a fight anymore, pulling a 1h/2h bastardized sword is rather balanced as there are many pure 1handed weapons (not including the 2 1hed weapons that switch to 2h) that are just as long if not longer than these 1h/2h swords and get only 1 slot. After these set of swords the length of the 2handed swords jump up 10 length or become very wide axes and cleavers, so longsword is the appropriate cutoff point at 106 length with a slender blade.
-
So after this change, why would any archer/xbower use a 1h sidearm? Everyone would have katana or longsword.
Current situation gives a lot more variance. I see archers carrying maces, swords, picks, whatever. Very cool.
-
Hip carrying has nothing to do with the slot system.
You seem to mistake realism with balance.
A common mistake lately.
-
So after this change, why would any archer/xbower use a 1h sidearm? Everyone would have katana or longsword.
Current situation gives a lot more variance. I see archers carrying maces, swords, picks, whatever. Very cool.
Not really, most archers dont have 1handed weapon proficiency, so I see half using the ONLY 1 slot 2hander (kind of silly only 1 even polearms have more and they are longer -qurter staff, shortened spear, staff, etc.) iron mace, the 3 or more polearms 1 slot, and the other half using the 0 slot weapons either hammer or hand axe, so they get extra ammo. Its rather silly to say the least. Especially since there are one-handers longer with wider and heavier blades than the 1h/2h swords I described. In fact, the very fact they are 1h/2h swords should make it obvious they fit in the same category as other 1hers for 1 slot. All of which are carried on one hip just like all the current one slot items. I personally really enjoy the iron mace, but the lack of diversity is inane, all I see is other iron maces, all fighting each other.
Seems strange that poelarms, which are by nature longer and larger have multiple 1 slot weapons to choose from while those who use 2handers have only 1 option: iron mace. Doesn't make a lot of sense, obviously a quick decision was made initially, but looking it over with a more reasonable light it makes a lot of sense for bastardized 1h/2h weapons to be 1 slot.
-
Katana (1h/2h) = 95 length
Bastard sword (1h/2h) = 101 length
Heavy Bastard sword (1h/2h) = 105 length
Longsword (1h/2h) = 106 length
vs.
Arabian Cavalry Sword (1h) = 105 length
Nordic Champion's Sword (1h) = 102 length
Long Espada Eslavona (1h) = 103 length
Long Arming Sword (1h) = 102 length
Shaska (1h) = 103 length
Elite Scimitar (1h) = 100 length (heavily curved so actually 115)
I'm pretty sure 2h swords have some additional reach and speed, that isn't shown in stats, also curvature has nothing to do with it (other than that it makes the sword look shorter which can be a bit unfair). I agree though, that it wouldn't be OP, though, horse archers might love the 2h swords.
-
Actually most of the 1handed swords are faster, the only way they become slower is if used with a shield. And with the new patch the additional shadow reach of 2hers got nerfed and is actually decreased reach (what some of the people complaining about the flamberge nerf being too much noted).
-
Longsword, katana, bastard sword are too powerful for the 1 slot status. We'll hybridize more 1h weapons to increase the 1slot 2h selection though, so 2h specced archers have a bit bigger selection. And it was not a quick decision. We thought quite alot about this.
-
Not really, most archers dont have 1handed weapon proficiency, so I see half using the ONLY 1 slot 2hander
I think these archers you mention have a pre-patch built (hybrids some WPF in 2 handed) and now they use the only 2H weapon that counts for 1 slot (mace) to keep arrows. For the next retirement, less and less will invest in 2handed WPF.
Agree with Vargas: if the bastard swords are 1 slot, all hybrids will use them.
Regarding the 1 slot polearms, I think all polearms should be minimum 2 slots.
-
Regarding the 1 slot polearms, I think all polearms should be minimum 2 slots.
i totally see how the staff is so OP that it needs to take 2 slots
-
I am using Heavy Bastard Sword as a pure 2-Hand char.
It is very fast and does heirloomed good damage. Its so fast
it works well without any WPF invested.
I would love to see it 1 Slot that i can use shield and Spear in addition but
then every ranged sucker would use my lovely weapon. SO..... NOOOOOT.
Keep it 2-Slot.
-
keep it 2 slot. you can already see that the archers and crossbowmen are all taking the spiked mace if they have a slot left, and that thing sucks compared to these weapons. so you can imagine that the ranged people would all take these kind of weapons. and the slot system doesn't have to do anything with carrying weapons on your belt. and if it would you could also count: it has 2modes so 2 slots :wink:
NO!!!
-
Hip carrying has nothing to do with the slot system.
You seem to mistake realism with balance.
A common mistake lately.
-
Wow, now I finally see what's really behind it, not that some of the shortest 2handers are OP (far less damage and reach), but that you don't like the idea of an archer with 75 wpf in 2h whooping your ass with a short blade when you have 150 wpf in 2h or polearm using an elegant poleaxe or german greatsword because you can't manual block.
Honestly at this point I like the iron mace but it gets really boring running around with always the same weapon so often I will just go no melee weapon, shoot, and if melee appears near just run away with 7 soon to be 8 athletics and lighter armor. Thats what people really want: kiting archers. If I really feel like meleeing once I use up my 2-3 stacks of arrows depending on bow i just run over and pick up someone's dropped german greatsword or highland claymore.
These swords are no different than the 1hers I listed earlier except they can be used 2handed and thereby use 2handed melee wpf. Similar damage, sometimes even less reach, and the same speeds. Others who actually will retire and respec will be using almost identical weapons with 1 slot because they are 1h (though it sounds like paul might make them hybridized too). It makes sense to ahve the shortest, cheapest 2handers be 1 slot just like the longer polearms have several. And no bastard sword is not OP by any means, its very very short, same thing with katana. If you are really intimidated by a guy with 75 wpf in 2h using a bastard sword and thereby voted no on the poll, I would highly suggest a lot more time in the duel server.
And Paul, if you consider 1-slots based on how powerful they are, why is the basic axe and pratice sword 2-slot items which would fit into the category of weak, but are carried on the back and not the hip.
-
I have a 2h specced archer, 60 wpf. Even with the spiked mace now, he is super effective. And I can manual block... a bit.
-
Say yes to bastard sword takes 1 slot
it's only slightly bigger than some 1hers
maybe heavy bastard sword for 1 slot
i say longsword should take 2 slots still
it hits hard it's fast
a tad short but manual blockig takes care of that slightly shorter range than other 2h
-
....because you can't manual block......would highly suggest a lot more time in the duel server....
You have clearly never dueled Paul. Best EU manual blocker in c-rpg? Paul imo. You're also vastly underestimating the effectiveness of a 2h vs a 1h.
-
.. but that you don't like the idea of an archer with 75 wpf in 2h whooping your ass with a short blade when you have 150 wpf in 2h or polearm..
This is all fine and well as long as said weapons take 2 slots. Archer hybrid can go Strong bow + 1 stack of arrows + pretty much any 2h weapon for better melee effectiveness but there needs to be a tradeoff for it.
Pre-patch I whooped most people just fine with my 0PS/1wpf archer + longsword. I thought (and still do) that it was stupid. Doing the same with a 1h requires some more effort, slot system = best thing ever.
-
Archer hybrid can go Strong bow + 1 stack of arrows + pretty much any 2h weapon for better melee effectiveness but there needs to be a tradeoff for it.
But now your char automatically drop melee weapon when trying to pick up arrows. Even if you have zero\slot melee weapon.
Also 15 bodkin arrows in quiver is questionable decision.
I have a 2h specced archer, 60 wpf. Even with the spiked mace now, he is super effective. And I can manual block... a bit.
Sorry Paul, but I think this game for people too, not only for you.
-
I have gone 1hander no shielder and did just as well as when I was using longsword, though not as well as miadao or heavy greatsword as 1hers are the fastest weapons in the game when used without a shield. Its has far more to do with footwork and good manual blocking then what weapon category it is as the bastard swords and the 1hers most used are roughly the same length, speed, and damage. Now the greatswords, cleavers, nodachi are significantly longer so manual blocking is less necessary, same thing with poleaxes (spamming from out of reach or backpedaling spamming far more accessible).
The whole point is that anyone can do well with any weapon if they know how to fight, so Paul, just because you and others did well with a longsword doesn't make it OP (maybe you are OP), by its very nature the bastardized swords 1h/2h swords are in the same category as many 1hers and not the very large 2hers and polearms that are so decidedly larger that they make sense to be 2 slots. Having only 1 2handed weapon and then 3 random polearms (maybe more) that are much longer be 1 slot is rather arbitrary and shapes it so that you see archers kiting without a melee weapon because there is no even generic selection like: practice sword, axe, iron mace, bastard sword, katana; to choose from, by the way all these weapons are 101 length or less other than practice sword which is equivalent to staff, a polearm with 128 length and is 1 slot.
Its the arbitrariness that makes the game feel less smooth when you see these longer polearms and longer 1hers taking up 1 slot and then the 2handers being singled out for only 1 weapon and it excludes the practice sword, basic axe and 95 length katana, of all things. The thing is I really am happy with the 2-slot weapon idea, it just feels a little erratic in its implementation when it comes to borderline weapons, please make it smoother with a clear reason. I was thinking 106 length 1h/2h sword was a good cutoff before swords jump 9 length or more as it makes sense that you wear soething on a hip and run with it in 1 hand for it to be 1 slot, but maybe 101 length bastard sword is a good cutoff and at the very least including the cheapest 3 2hers similar to polearms to at least offer some diversity. Thank you.
-
A good example today using a longsword but with melee garb (mameluke mail and helmet). I got repeatedly one-shotted by a heavy german poleaxe, while it would take me 3-5 hits to kill most people with my longsword (6 powerstrike 4IF). These weapons are nowhere near the same category as 1 is significnatly longer, gets block stun, polearm stun (dont know why that was never removed), and does 25% more cut damage. Now imagine most archers wearing light garb getting one-shotted by almost everything and then being told the longsword is OP when surrounded by people with 124 length swords and 140+ length polearms that can all 1 shot you, while you can only 3-5 shot them. Yet those 2 weapons are somehow categorized the same even though many logswords ahve far more in common with 1hers than with the monstrosities that make up msot of the 2-slot items.
-
You are straying away from the topic. Whether high-tier polearms should be 3 slots is another discussion. It's a good topic and slot usage will no doubt be revised, but let's try to tackle issues one at a time.
On topic: I don't see your point. If the bastard swords are just as good as 1-handers and you do equally well with both, why do you want them made 1-slot so much?
-
You are straying away from the topic. Whether high-tier polearms should be 3 slots is another discussion. It's a good topic and slot usage will no doubt be revised, but let's try to tackle issues one at a time.
On topic: I don't see your point. If the bastard swords are just as good as 1-handers and you do equally well with both, why do you want them made 1-slot so much?
To give archers with 2h wpf more choices. Which is already going to be handled:
Longsword, katana, bastard sword are too powerful for the 1 slot status. We'll hybridize more 1h weapons to increase the 1slot 2h selection though, so 2h specced archers have a bit bigger selection. And it was not a quick decision. We thought quite alot about this.
I still think keshian is vastly underestimating the power of the hand and a half swords compared to 1hs. There's a reason you don't see any pure 1hs without a shield. Whereas the hand and a half swords are all perfectly good weapons. Bastard sword is at the lower range of these weapons and could be a candidate for a 1 slot 2h, but there first needs to be a bigger selection of 1 slot 2hs, so that the bastard sword doesn't become the go to weapon for every archer/xbowman.
-
To give archers with 2h wpf more choices. Which is already going to be handled:
I still think keshian is vastly underestimating the power of the hand and a half swords compared to 1hs. There's a reason you don't see any pure 1hs without a shield. Whereas the hand and a half swords are all perfectly good weapons. Bastard sword is at the lower range of these weapons and could be a candidate for a 1 slot 2h, but there first needs to be a bigger selection of 1 slot 2hs, so that the bastard sword doesn't become the go to weapon for every archer/xbowman.
At least 4 of my clan mates regularly or only fight with one hander no shield, i've done several generations as a 1her no shield. Its nowhere near as difficult as people say if you are aan average or better manual blocker because the weapons are very very fast and also the one handed overhead is so similar to the one handed right swing that many people misss their blocks on your swings, you face hug people more and its very effective, maybe because we north americans depend less on lolstabs may be the reason you underestimate 1hers and their shorter range. Many 1handers on north american servers (that are good) only duel without their shield and often put away their shield once ranged is not an issue. Shields are a slow crutch, but thats off-topic, they really are not that different from the basic 2handers.
The ones that are different are the greatswords class which are all 120+ range which is quite significant. To be honest ideally I think bastard sword, katana, practice sword, axe, and maybe add a couple more 1h/2h hybrids for diversities sake would really go a long way to adding diversity to xbow/throwers/archers/polearmers/1hers that hybrid with 2handers. If you need to nerf bastard sword, go ahead, just make the heavy bastard what the current bastard is, since it really the ehavy bastard is just the longsword with 1 less length right now. Its just silly that the smallest 2handed sword that you sheath on your hip and run with 1 hand is not 1 slot, while half a dozen 1hers are longer weapons and are 1 slot.
-
At least 4 of my clan mates regularly or only fight with one hander no shield, i've done several generations as a 1her no shield.
So do I, just because me and your clan mates can do it doesn't mean everyone can.
Its nowhere near as difficult as people say if you are aan average or better manual blocker because the weapons are very very fast and also the one handed overhead is so similar to the one handed right swing that many people misss their blocks on your swings, you face hug people more and its very effective, maybe because we north americans depend less on lolstabs may be the reason you underestimate 1hers and their shorter range.
1h no shield is much more difficult than 2h. It's much harder to maintain control over a fight with a 1h, especially if it's not just a duel, but there are multiple fighters involved. That doesn't mean 1hs aren't effective, they are, in the right hands. 2hs are simply much more effective melee weapons and they should be, that's why 1hs can use a shield.
You also need to stop underestimating europeans, I'm a more than capable melee fighter, I don't depend on lolstabs. I haven't even played my 2h characters in ages, I mostly play an archer with 100 1h wpf and a pure polearm character.
Many 1handers on north american servers (that are good) only duel without their shield and often put away their shield once ranged is not an issue. Shields are a slow crutch, but thats off-topic, they really are not that different from the basic 2handers.
I do the same on my 1h melee character. Shields are only for ranged and group fighting.
-
I have gone 1hander no shielder and did just as well as when I was using longsword, ...
if that's true then this topic isn't nessecairy! close it. it would be to OP and you know it...
-
To give archers with 2h wpf more choices. Which is already going to be handled.
But archers already have the choice: they can use all 2H weapons... at the expense of an extra quiver of arrows. It is a trade off, like everybody has to face.
I could imagine the (light) bastard sword being 1 slot if it is a bit nerfed in order to let the Heavy BS still worth 2 slots. In addition, I would suggest the stats of the heavy bastard sword being revised to not be just a weaker version of the longsword. What do you guys think of the following:
Bastard Sword: 34c, 21p, length 101, 1 slot (=cut damage -1), the BS would have cut damages very similar to the best 1H swords, and the same length as the longest one (the side sword). Note that many 1h swords have better pierce damage so it won't be the best 1 slot weapon.
Heavy Bastard Sword: 37c, 22p, length 105, 2 slots (=cut damage +1), the HBS is heavy, isnt'it? The weight and the cost of the HBS should also be increased then.
Longsword: 36c, 22p, length 107, 2 slots (=range +1), because it is a long sword.
In comparison, the two handed sword is 38 cut for 110 range, so it keeps an edge over the halfswords.
Some players would find a use for the bastard sword while being a step below the other 2Hs. Choosing between the HBS and the longsword would be a matter of taste/style: 1 point of damage vs 2 points of range is a very debatable choice.
-
But archers already have the choice: they can use all 2H weapons... at the expense of an extra quiver of arrows. It is a trade off, like everybody has to face.
I could imagine the (light) bastard sword being 1 slot if it is a bit nerfed in order to let the Heavy BS still worth 2 slots. In addition, I would suggest the stats of the heavy bastard sword being revised to not be just a weaker version of the longsword. What do you guys think of the following:
Bastard Sword: 34c, 21p, length 101, 1 slot (=cut and pierce damages -1), the BS would have cut damages very similar to the best 1H swords, and the same length as the longest one (the side sword). Note that many 1h swords have better pierce damage so it won't be the best 1 slot weapon.
Heavy Bastard Sword: 37c, 22p, length 105, 2 slots (=cut damage +1), the HBS is heavy, isnt'it? The weight and the cost of the HBS should also be increased then.
Longsword: 36c, 22p, length 107, 2 slots (=range +1), because it is a long sword.
In comparison, the two handed sword is 38 cut for 110 range, so it keeps an edge over the halfswords.
Some players would find a use for the bastard sword while being a step below the other 2Hs. Choosing between the HBS and the longsword would be a matter of taste/style: 1 point of damage vs 2 points of range is a very debatable choice.
yeah!
the HBS is just a heavier BS nothin more!
and the longsword isn't called long for nothing!
good point +1
-
But archers already have the choice: they can use all 2H weapons... at the expense of an extra quiver of arrows. It is a trade off, like everybody has to face.
NO. We can't. Because warbow or longbow is 2 slots weapon itself. So, you cant use 2H weapon except spiked mace.
And even with Strongbow\quiver\2H loadout, you cant pick up arrows from field. Because your melee weapon and quiver automatically dropped, when you pick up an arrow of different kind. In my case - any non-masterwork bodkin arrow. So, literally, I can pick up only my own arrows.
-
I'll be happy if design team will introduce some 1h/2h (by x) weapons that have less than 100 range and less than 34 damage (and less than 99 speed).
Something like this would fit well as a 1 slot weapon: (in two handed mode, in 1h with lower cut damage - 30 and speed 99).
Random Sword
Reach 96
Speed 98
Cut 33
Thrust 22
-
I'll be happy if design team will introduce some 1h/2h (by x) weapons that have less than 100 range and less than 34 damage (and less than 99 speed).
Something like this would fit well as a 1 slot weapon: (in two handed mode, in 1h with lower cut damage - 30 and speed 99).
Random Sword
Reach 96
Speed 98
Cut 33
Thrust 22
+1 I agree, thats one of the main points of the thread is that there isn't a diversity of choices, which traditionally has been th hallmark of cRPG, that unlike Native you can choose from an assortment of weapons and gear, but if you are a 2h/archer/xbower using a longbow/warbow/sniper/heavy you either ONLY use the spiked mace or you run around kiting with no melee weapon, even polearms/archer/xbow, gets at least 3 possibly more to choose from even though polearms are longer reach. Im not trying to get OP weapons like greatswords and claymores be useable, just want some diversity of gear rather than 1 generic choice.
Also, I found out the fourth polearm thats 1 slot, military fork of all things, while the basic peasant scythe is 2 slots.
-
i agree. most people(including me) just don't want archers to be able to have the same weapons as a deticated 2hander. and that's pretty logic because then why wouldn't we all go archer with 2hander. but with this weapon , esspecially designed for hybrid archers/crossbowmen. +1
but i don't think chadz will agrre because the main reason for the new patch was to nerf hybrids but you can always try. :D
-
i agree. most people(including me) just don't want archers to be able to have the same weapons as a deticated 2hander. and that's pretty logic because then why wouldn't we all go archer with 2hander. but with this weapon , esspecially designed for hybrid archers/crossbowmen. +1
but i don't think chadz will agrre because the main reason for the new patch was to nerf hybrids but you can always try. :D
Its still abig nerf, its not like people are going to be pulling flamberges, poleaxes, or highland claymores out of their ass, basically just having some diversity with some low level swords and not just 1 weapon to choose from if you are a ranged/2her hybrid.
-
So after this change, why would any archer/xbower use a 1h sidearm? Everyone would have katana or longsword.
Current situation gives a lot more variance. I see archers carrying maces, swords, picks, whatever. Very cool.
this