cRPG
Off Topic => General Off Topic => Topic started by: Osiris on May 07, 2013, 06:33:46 pm
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With the promises of referendums, the Tories clamouring for more debate and wide spread gains for the euro septic UKIP in the elections what are your thoughts on the uk? Do non brits even care :-D
If your from the uk i would like to see your views and please say if you went to uni or not, I am curious to see if there is a trend :-P
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If we leave the EU then tax payers will be picking up the brunt of the costs for reforms, the laws that are currently under EU regulation will need to re established and policed. Subsidies to alot sectors will need to be covered too. There are benefits where red tape will in theory be cut (slightly skeptical that it wont just be replaced by more bullshit.)
(This is coming from someone who operates a large retail business and links to many other sectors.)
Basically there are no clear cut way to side both have similar positives and negatives to each other. The only thing for certain is leaving will cost alot and in many ways.
( no uni for me , Army trained and educated to university levels in a few sectors tho.)
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UK only joined the EU for 1- economic reasons, and 2- because they still look at european political unification as a horrible, horrible thing, the same way they've viewed it since they had any power to affect it. Geopolitically the interaction between the UK and the european mainland for hundreds of years now basically consists of "we'll keep them nice and divided and fighting each other because a continental superpower would be terrible for us" a.k.a so-called Balance of Power. Their main intention concerning the EU so far as I can see has been to sabotage it and slow down the process of political integration as much as possible.
TL;DR: Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia.
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Well every country played the balance of power game unless they tried to conquer the continent.
I'm going to try to pick some stuff out from the web to get things started, I'm currently euro sceptic and would vote for leaving, I haven't read a massive amount of material and I'm sure i will learn more as the real debating starts and my mind may be changed who knows I'm open like that :-D
Note : don't call me a moron/idiot for only posting pros its supposed to be talked about if i was going to post pros and cons id just paste the website ^^.
Jobs, a euro sceptic think tank reckons leaving the eu but not the eea would create 1 million jobs.
Monies! We put 8.9 billion into the eu budget, a ukip mp puts total outlay at 65 billion pounds
Britain would be free to control all its laws, including human rights that really piss some brits off. (Like the eu saying we need to give prisoners a vote)
Influence, debatable if we even have any influence in the franco-german led EU
Immigration is a hot talking point here but I'd have to see what our policy would be first.
Linkage http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20448450
Sorry for the poor post I'm on my tablet and it isn't so easy :-D
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Leave EU so we can do whatever the fuck we like with immigration, terrorists and just about everything else where our laws are concerned. Democracy is fucking pointless when there are EU 'dictators' saying we can't deport a terrorist even though the entire country wants him out because he might face an "unfair" trial, so then with our tax money we have to house, feed and protect him. Sure things are moving ahead now via different methods but the EU has hindered his deportation and trial for so long and it has cost us tax payers a lot of money, he should have been booted out of the country long ago, he isn't our fucking problem and we don't give a toss how fair his trial is.
We also don't need any more immigrant workers, yet they continue to flood here because of EU laws, I do not blame them, I work with a couple of eastern Europeans and can see the appeal for them to come here. In many situations it's a group of them sharing a house together living on the minimums meaning that it doesn't cost them much at all to rent a house as the rent is split between them all along with other bills. They happily work for less money as it isn't costing them much to live here, in turn many employers are forcing lower wages across the board.
My father will be taking his redundancy payment in August because his depot is closing and at the new depot they want him to take a pay cut of £7.5k a year, whilst doing exactly the same job, at the same efficiency level and having to drive 2 hours a day to get to work and back, costing him a lot more money on fuel and car maintenance than now, why? because the company knows if the native population cannot afford to work for peanuts and potatoes they know the eastern Europeans can.
They also save a lot of money and send it back/take it back home, actively taking money out of our economy, the sole reason most of them are here is to save enough money to buy a house and other luxuries back in their native countries, so they are happy to live on just the basics to survive, scraping by, as it means they save more money and are better off when they go home, whilst having put only a small amount of the money back into the economy. Certainly needs to be a solid cap on how many immigrant workers we have in the country at one time and skills should play a vital part on who we allow to work here.
Yeah, this is how I see it in my own eyes anyway, there are probably people that disagree with me but this IS how it is effecting the town I live in. Fuck the EU, we can struggle for another year but we'll be better off without them in the long run.
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I for one support our american overlords.
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Leave EU, please.
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If your from the uk i would like to see your views and please say if you went to uni or not, I am curious to see if there is a trend :-P
I'm undecided. EU is a meddling arse of a system but it does have some benefits. Trade being a main one. If there was evidence of us being able to secure significant trade agreements with other countries I'd be all for it. Biggest mistake we ever made was not making commonwealth countries sign for trade agreements as part of an independence deal.
I'm from the UK and went to Uni.
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O, I see what happened there.
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Replace EU with smaller, local unions where the mindsets of the people are more compatible.
Middle European Grand Association: Austria, Benelux, France, Germany, North Italy and maybe even Poland+Czech
Scandinavian Confederate Union of Men: Denmark, Finnland, Norway, Sweden and maybe Baltic states
Iberian and North African Nations Enterprise: Algeria, Morocco, Portugal, Spain, Tunesia
Balkan Union and Mediterran States: Ex-Yugo states, Greece, South Italy
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Ive always been pro eu, despite the massive lobbying from ukip in my home region.
the whole uni tangent is bs, i know plenty of people who are very anti-eu at uni.
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Im a non-brit and I care a lot.
a unified Europe is the only solution to remaining competetive in the future world, territority and manpower-wise.
With India becoming a superpower in the next 100 years, China already beeing one(AND gaining more influence every day)and the rising of the other asian countrys like thailand and korea (I wont even start on Africa and its unlimited potential in the next century(s)), it is VITAL to fuse the European Block(The Countrys all beeing relatively compatible, culture-wise)into one Nation(Foreign Policy-wise).
The current European union as Insititution is not short of flaws, but it is a step towards a united europe, and possibly after that, a united world.
Which is, in short, why I would want the UK to stay in the EU.
Also, you guys are cool.We´d miss ya.
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Serbia will gladly fill the void left by UK :mrgreen:
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Ive always been pro eu, despite the massive lobbying from ukip in my home region.
the whole uni tangent is bs, i know plenty of people who are very anti-eu at uni.
Which is why i asked casimir ^^ i decided to do a college course instead of uni but my uni mates came back like clones :-D
A united European state sounds terrible and i hope not in my lifetime
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I support UK leaving, same way I support USA splitting up into individual states, UK splitting up into Scotland, North Ireland, and England, and in general just about any bigger group splitting up into smaller groups.
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Leave EU so we can do whatever the fuck we like with immigration, terrorists and just about everything else where our laws are concerned. Democracy is fucking pointless when there are EU 'dictators' saying we can't deport a terrorist even though the entire country wants him out because he might face an "unfair" trial, so then with our tax money we have to house, feed and protect him. Sure things are moving ahead now via different methods but the EU has hindered his deportation and trial for so long and it has cost us tax payers a lot of money, he should have been booted out of the country long ago, he isn't our fucking problem and we don't give a toss how fair his trial is.
We also don't need any more immigrant workers, yet they continue to flood here because of EU laws, I do not blame them, I work with a couple of eastern Europeans and can see the appeal for them to come here. In many situations it's a group of them sharing a house together living on the minimums meaning that it doesn't cost them much at all to rent a house as the rent is split between them all along with other bills. They happily work for less money as it isn't costing them much to live here, in turn many employers are forcing lower wages across the board.
My father will be taking his redundancy payment in August because his depot is closing and at the new depot they want him to take a pay cut of £7.5k a year, whilst doing exactly the same job, at the same efficiency level and having to drive 2 hours a day to get to work and back, costing him a lot more money on fuel and car maintenance than now, why? because the company knows if the native population cannot afford to work for peanuts and potatoes they know the eastern Europeans can.
They also save a lot of money and send it back/take it back home, actively taking money out of our economy, the sole reason most of them are here is to save enough money to buy a house and other luxuries back in their native countries, so they are happy to live on just the basics to survive, scraping by, as it means they save more money and are better off when they go home, whilst having put only a small amount of the money back into the economy. Certainly needs to be a solid cap on how many immigrant workers we have in the country at one time and skills should play a vital part on who we allow to work here.
Yeah, this is how I see it in my own eyes anyway, there are probably people that disagree with me but this IS how it is effecting the town I live in. Fuck the EU, we can struggle for another year but we'll be better off without them in the long run.
Sorry, but this is the kind of (imho stupid) attitude that really ticks me off, mostly because it's so prevalent.
Firstly:
Work is by definition useful; that is why we do it and why we pay people to do it. Work produces something that we want, be it wealth, welfare or whatever.
If someone performs work more efficiently, i.e the same amount of work for less money, or more work for the same amount of money, that is then more beneficial.
If the immigrant workers perform the same amount of work as the 'natives', then they are not only more attractive (which seems to be your concern), but also more useful to society as a whole.
This in turn means that if you get rid of the immigrant workers, everyone will suffer.
Say a bridge needs building, so the government sets out to build it. Building said bridge will be more efficient if the workforce includes immigrants. If the immigrants were to be removed from the equation then building the bridge will be more expensive, and it will then hurt (spoiler: everyone).
People doing good work shouldn't be punished. Besides, the whole 'they work for less, and that is bad' argument is just absurd imo.
Are women a liability to the economy because they work cheaper and thus push down wages?
The idea that the immigrants are pulling money out of the economy (...and that is bad...) is also flawed imo.
Firstly: Shouldn't people be allowed to do whatever the fuck they want with their money (within legal jurisdiction of course)? If you want to force people's money into the 'British economy', then you might as well tax it.
Secondly: There is a world economy going on. If people should not spend their money on stuff from outside the country then what? Ban tourism? Prohibit international trade? Money (money is a bad term now that I think of it, "resources" is better) spent in other countries benefit yours as well. The resources spent by the immigrants in their countries will strengthen those countries, allowing them to produce more resources for trade and profit.
As globalization increases, the spread of resources will inevitably even out as more people from countries really bad off will be able to churn out a decent chunk for themselves. Facing this reality with shortsighted isolationism will not get us anywhere, what is needed is rather a better flow of people and resources to strengthen the global economy as a whole (through the elimination of prejudice and social/cultural stigma).
Also:
the sole reason most of them are here is to save enough money to buy a house and other luxuries back in their native countries
Seriously...?
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Dont leave plz :oops: we love you :)
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I support UK leaving, same way I support USA splitting up into individual states, UK splitting up into Scotland, North Ireland, and England, and in general just about any bigger group splitting up into smaller groups.
That's a great way to ruin a country and its economy.
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Middle European Grand Association: Austria, Benelux, France, Germany, North Italy and maybe even Poland+Czech
Epic plan. I'd vote for you. Not sure, would probably include northern countries as well, but not any southern country except for Italy. :P
Anyway, I'm pro EU. We must stand united !
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First step: hire immigrants.
Second step: move company abroad.
Third step: see company put out of business / being bought by competition from foreign country that you helped bolster in previous steps.
That's globalization for you. If you leave EU, second step will be done sooner because of shortage of immigrants. The sad thing is, we as customers could influence this by choosing products made by companies that employ local workers. But all we care about is the price.
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Europe? That's a state right? By Ohio?
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Interesting. Didn't know UK was planning on leaving the EU.
I've always imagined the EU as a bigger bureaucratic mess than the US. Anytime you start taking lots of land and people and putting them under 1 rule, you get larger and larger bureaucratic messes. Will be interesting to see how it pans out.
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Sorry, but this is the kind of (imho stupid) attitude that really ticks me off, mostly because it's so prevalent.
Firstly:
Work is by definition useful; that is why we do it and why we pay people to do it. Work produces something that we want, be it wealth, welfare or whatever.
If someone performs work more efficiently, i.e the same amount of work for less money, or more work for the same amount of money, that is then more beneficial.
If the immigrant workers perform the same amount of work as the 'natives', then they are not only more attractive (which seems to be your concern), but also more useful to society as a whole.
This in turn means that if you get rid of the immigrant workers, everyone will suffer.
Say a bridge needs building, so the government sets out to build it. Building said bridge will be more efficient if the workforce includes immigrants. If the immigrants were to be removed from the equation then building the bridge will be more expensive, and it will then hurt (spoiler: everyone).
People doing good work shouldn't be punished. Besides, the whole 'they work for less, and that is bad' argument is just absurd imo.
Are women a liability to the economy because they work cheaper and thus push down wages?
The idea that the immigrants are pulling money out of the economy (...and that is bad...) is also flawed imo.
Firstly: Shouldn't people be allowed to do whatever the fuck they want with their money (within legal jurisdiction of course)? If you want to force people's money into the 'British economy', then you might as well tax it.
Secondly: There is a world economy going on. If people should not spend their money on stuff from outside the country then what? Ban tourism? Prohibit international trade? Money (money is a bad term now that I think of it, "resources" is better) spent in other countries benefit yours as well. The resources spent by the immigrants in their countries will strengthen those countries, allowing them to produce more resources for trade and profit.
As globalization increases, the spread of resources will inevitably even out as more people from countries really bad off will be able to churn out a decent chunk for themselves. Facing this reality with shortsighted isolationism will not get us anywhere, what is needed is rather a better flow of people and resources to strengthen the global economy as a whole (through the elimination of prejudice and social/cultural stigma).
You seemed to have missed the whole point and writing another tl;dr story is off of the agenda, I never said NO immigrant workers at all, I said there must be a limit to how many at once are allowed here. You also don't seem to understand how the immigrant workers willing to work for little money effects us in the long run, it drives the standard of living down, down to their levels of which they're living in whilst they're saving money up, so they can buy a house back "home", unlucky for us "home" is here. They don't care about scraping by living on the bare minimum, it's the whole reason they're here, the more they do it the more money they save.
Women get payed the same as men here in the common jobs you apply for, the only difference probably being higher up the ladder or in self-employed jobs where people generally try to create their own value. Do you think we pay women less?, there are women who earn more than men and vice versa, being a woman doesn't mean you only take shit low paying jobs.
All I can say is, goodbye EU, goodbye immigrants we don't really need here, welcome to immigrants who have useful skills. Come the next major elections I will be voting UKIP, if our current government doesn't change things and stop letting the EU boss us around then UKIP will when everyone gets tired and votes for them.
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You seemed to have missed the whole point and writing another tl;dr story is off of the agenda, I never said NO immigrant workers at all, I said there must be a limit to how many at once are allowed here. You also don't seem to understand how the immigrant workers willing to work for little money effects us in the long run, it drives the standard of living down, down to their levels of which they're living in whilst they're saving money up, so they can buy a house back "home", unlucky for us "home" is here. They don't care about scraping by living on the bare minimum, it's the whole reason they're here, the more they do it the more money they save.
Women get payed the same as men here in the common jobs you apply for, the only difference probably being higher up the ladder or in self-employed jobs where people generally try to create their own value. Do you think we pay women less?, there are women who earn more than men and vice versa, being a woman doesn't mean you only take shit low paying jobs.
All I can say is, goodbye EU, goodbye immigrants we don't really need here, welcome to immigrants who have useful skills. Come the next major elections I will be voting UKIP, if our current government doesn't change things and stop letting the EU boss us around then UKIP will when everyone gets tired and votes for them.
UKIP will only bring harm to the UK, anyone who considers them a serious political party needs to sit down and actually read their manifesto.
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UKIP will only bring harm to the UK, anyone who considers them a serious political party needs to sit down and actually read their manifesto.
Regardless have you seen how much the votes have swayed in their favour during these local elections, they have gained a massive amount of supporters. Why? because people are sick of the usual suspects, i.e labour, conservative, lib dems and their bullshit. Even if UKIP turned out to be bad, people won't give a shit until that happens, right now people are looking for someone else to vote for and UKIP have made themselves an easy choice when they say "Fuck the EU and have an immigration cap", people have already lost jobs and homes they have worked hard for, they would rather take the risk of exploring an alternative government as would I.
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i don't disagree, but do you really believe the people voting for them actually want them in government or are simply doing it as a fuck you too 'the big three'? When it comes to general election i doubt we'll see a large slide towards UKIP, and if we do it will only bring them up to the level of lib-dems, who have been a running joke of a party for as long as it matters.
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i don't disagree, but do you really believe the people voting for them actually want them in government or are simply doing it as a fuck you too 'the big three'? When it comes to general election i doubt we'll see a large slide towards UKIP, and if we do it will only bring them up to the level of lib-dems, who have been a running joke of a party for as long as it matters.
I think it's a bit of both, most voters only take note of what the parties say they're going to do, they don't read too deeply into everything, they look at the bold statements the parties say they will do, whilst at the same time they are also tired of the current government, which leads them to looking for the best alternative, UKIP presents itself as such.
Everyone knows UKIP wants out of EU and wants to put a cap and control on immigration, which a lot of people agree with and thus they are getting the votes. Yes, they probably wont win the next general election, but they certainly will gain power. I also disagree they will just be another "lib dem", because UKIPs support will only grow the longer people are left to dislike the EU and the current lack of immigration control. It's basically in the hands of the current power house parties, if they don't do anything that convinces the general population they are making the changes the people want, then more people will vote for UKIP.
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As a member of the United Kingdom, I am half 'n' half as it were.
I am not the most well informed of people with regards to how leaving, or not, will actually effect the UK.
Remembering from College, the EU was described as a "wonderful idea but poorly implemented due to each nations own wants and desires". It doesn't seem to have the "one for all" vibe that it was sold as and in my politically aware living memory (which is roughly 5 years) the closest thing I have seen for Europe to pull together is the Euro instability garnered partly by the poor regulation of countries being allowed to associated the currency with their economy.
Each country, no matter how hard they try or state otherwise will always think of themselves first, same as each individual will almost always put themselves first. They'll always try and do what is best for their country regardless of what it does to the other ones, if it just happens to help another country then hurray, but if it'll do more harm than good to them, they're going to be against it, and rightfully so!
Anyway, I personally believe the problem to be the fact that the UK told the Euro Zone to bugger off and kept the Pound Sterling, we're invested in the Union and it has an affect on our economy but not to the same extent as each Euro using country has on each other. It also means that our influence decreases significantly compared to others because what we want won't necessarily help the Zone, you all have similar issues and will work together to fix them.
Now, I love the rest of you EU buggers and I personally like the idealistic view that we can all be a part of "Europe" but I also get the idea that we're screwing you over at times because what you want to do would screw us over, which gets us nowhere. The laws and what-not that the Union imposes are terrible in some cases, as Leesin was talking about, I cannot remember the name of the fellow, but he has been sitting in the UK for so long, eating away at our money and he isn't even our problem. It's more or less true, we wouldn't give him a second thought if he disappeared over night, we just want him out so we can spend that money fixing things that the people care about, sure its safer to keep him locked up, but he really shouldn't be costing us money, same goes for any international criminal that people happen to have locked up, but are not allowed to extradite because of the EU.
As for the governing on immigration, the Queens Speech made today says that it will be targeted. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22437884
The "unskilled labour" sectors (Someone give me a better term for that please, it sounds rather derogatory and I don't mean it to be, it's integral to every society) of the job market are of course highly competitive and people can't be expected to pay a high wage if there are plenty of people clamouring for the position, hence the minimum wage, it sets the level for the "standard living" costs for the most part and I personally do not care whether or not immigrants get the job, if they're here legally, can do the job and can do it well then hurray. Why they're doing that and how they're living doesn't concern me, the entitled mentality that some people seem to have that says "I'm British and therefore you should employ me over someone else" is rather backwards however I do feel that cutting peoples wages, who were previously working for a company because they know they can get cheaper labour is morally wrong, but sadly not economically or lawfully but then they expect people to want job security. It's cut-throat really.
It's the people here illegally that annoy me, because they WILL work for lower than minimum wage and they do technically steal legitimate peoples jobs, which is what needs to be targeted in my opinion, but that has nothing to do with the EU regulations so, to sum this segment up, I don't believe the EU laws on that make much of a difference. I've said it before, but I would sooner employ the better person for the job than a Brit. Even being "British" is ambiguous, this day and age it just means that you have a British passport.
I think that if the UK could leave the Union but keep the trade agreements, it'd be best for us but I don't want to leave partly due to it being all I have known.
Sorry for the wall of text, but I shall sum it up quickly;
Tenne's middle class, media indoctrinated views on the EU.
- I did an Economics and Business A level, therefore I clearly know what I am talking about, you should listen to me. (I honestly don't know what I am talking about really, but I thought I would put in my personal views)
- "All for one and one for one".
- Euro Zone vs European Union.
- I like the idea of the Union, but I don't believe it works well.
- The Queens Speech, unimportant to 99% of the world population but a thing we do anyway.
- I show that I am class orientated, damn beggars.
- Illegal immigration bad, EU appears to have little effect in my eyes (sheltered Southern attitude)
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Well, it's not like Britain even is in the EU, really. On paper, yes, but I saw a documentation about this exact thing and it took them like 10 minutes to mention all Brit-only exceptions from EU-law.
There is no other country that has as much exception to EU-stuff than Britain, not even close. So, Britain leaving the EU won't have any impact except a psychological one. That's my rather uneducated view about this... Basicly, do as you like, I don't think it will change anything.
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Well, it's not like Britain even is in the EU, really. On paper, yes, but I saw a documentation about this exact thing and it took them like 10 minutes to mention all Brit-only exceptions from EU-law.
There is no other country that has as much exception to EU-stuff than Britain, not even close. So, Britain leaving the EU won't have any impact except a psychological one. That's my rather uneducated view about this... Basicly, do as you like, I don't think it will change anything.
Indeed, the way I see it is that we joined it because it was a good idea, then it was divided further and further and became a power block which we can't compete in, where we then fight for an exception and it's as if nothing happened. It doesn't agree with what "we" are trying to do.
I recently read that the EU wants to block a plan for the UK to give subsidies to games companies because "it would create a subsidy war" despite other countries offering larger subs (in particular France I believe who were the major influence for blocking it, I could just have read that wrong though, it was a couple of weeks ago.)
If the UK does leave, I honestly hope that there are some changes, particularly to the UK's economy.
The more I research this, which a lot of the discussions on these forums actually make me do, the more I am leaning towards leaving, my like for Europe and what it stands for isn't strong enough.
I can understand why the UK might be hated within the EU parliamentary circles though. :lol:
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Personally, I have the most issues with all the money flowing out of my country. Which supports your "everyone thinks about themselves first" but that's just the human nature, isnt it? Nature in general, really.
Most money inside the EU comes from Germany. I don't have the exact numbers but it's even a lot more than France is giving but the problem for is that I don't see any benefit from it.
Everywhere you go in Germany, you will find something that needs a lot of money badly. Schools, Universities, libraries and every single social institution. And all you hear is "We don't have the money." while you listen the the news telling you that again Millions and Billions are going into some European country that I couldn't care less about.
All fun and jokes with Panos aside, I do have sympathy for the needs and problems of the Greek people, or Portugal, or Spain, or Slovenia, or Rumanian, or Bulgaria, or Croatia. I really do... I belong to the minority here that says in every discussion about some poor Rumanian bugger looking for work here, that I can understand him and there is no reason to blame him for anything.
It's not easy to maintain this view when you go to my University and see rooms which havent been modernized since 1978, with crappy gear inside and dirt everywhere...
...but at the end of the day, I don't really care about any EU politics. I can't change the politics of my own country if the masses are still stupid and follow like sheep, I sure can't change the EU politics... all I can do is to get myself to a state where I have the luxury to just not give a toss.
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First of all, I am a EU (Spanish) citizen living and studying at university in the UK for the last 3 years.
Now my views:
On the EU: The EU is a great idea not executed in the best possible way, a way to unite and remain competitive in an ever more globalising world.
Its original intent was to be a way of trying to prevent huge disasters like WWII happening again within its reach by mixing the populations up. If you stay in a small place your entire life, you are going to be sceptic if not afraid of people from far away, which causes xenophobia, racism, etc, while travelling and knowing other people leads to understanding and reduction of the former (if you have family or friends in state X, you are less likely to want to go to war against state X for example). And by trading (ECSC originally, any coincidences with who the EU leaders currently are?), first steps were done towards this goal. Then this grew ever more by trying to expand to most of Europe, which I can understand from the people requesting it, but causes loads of problems since there are issues like nationalisms and egos that come into play a lot here. And then the economic and political union was approached. This causes many issues, for a simple reason: NATIONALISM.
When Napoleon or Rome dominated Europe, they brought many good things, but people still hated them. Why? Because my country, my homeland, my ... ARGH SO MUCH BULLSHIT. Nationalism... While many people try to unite, there are at the same time stupid nationalist movements (Scotland, Catalonia, and probably many more that I am not aware of) that try to keep people identified with small things (my region, my village, etc), which leads to homophobia and fear, and in the current situation hinders the EU a lot.
For example, in certain rural areas of Spain, there is still that feeling of "Spain, one, great, free", traditions, and many of these people would probably be against uniting more in Europe. However, in these regions many people are mostly living because of EU aids to agriculture and other areas, without those helps, they would be much poorer. Many people do not realise this, though.
Of course, another big hindrance has been the amount of institutions and bureaucracy that it has led to, for example with the 23 languages (http://ec.europa.eu/languages/languages-of-europe/eu-languages_en.htm):
documents may be sent to EU institutions and a reply received in any of these languages
EU regulations and other legislative documents are published in the official and working languages, as is the Official Journal
Now about the UK: The reason why the UK does not have the influence its citizens would like to have is simple: It has always been reticent to joining (did not do so until 1973, 20 years after its beginning). And when it did, it often tried to disrupt rather than help. If it had joined from the beginning, all in, it would probably have a big leading seat, and it would be France, Germany and UK (in alphabetic order) doing most of the calls. But the UK has always doubted it (remember the Empire?), and hence could not be given more power within (imagine giving the wolf power in a sheep farm). From a European pov, the UK has always leaned more towards the US than towards the EU (even though I do not believe it personally, but many people I know do). Which is understandable, with them being your old colony and so. Oh, the jolly old times of the British Empire... (ego and nationalism coming into play yet again... how curious)
About staying or leaving, both sides have good and bad reasons, and as a complex situation, there are also people who try to use these motivations to radicalise the populace, so it needs to be handled very carefully.
Economically, joining even more closely and cooperating could, I believe, lead to even more trade and sharing, which would help in the long run, but which would require help to try and bring everywhere to a not so dissonant level first (either by dropping the poorer countries or by helping them out a lot), and this causes problems with most people who cannot see to far ahead.
Exiting it completely would lead to a strong (ish) independent country that would, however, in the long run fall behind the rest simply by the strength of numbers (less than 1% of the world's population cannot hold the power against countries with 5, 15 or 20% for very long..., it would be a bit easier if it could be increased to 500mil (EU) instead of 60mil (UK), which would bring this to 6 or 7%).
I would personally like the UK to get more involved in Europe, but I know that that is an idealist dream since I believe that a great EU could be made (though many things would need to change).
A more realistic view that I have come to realise over the past few years is that eventually it will have to decide (if the EU survives for long enough and does not disintegrate beforehand) either all in or all out, when the political union happens. I hope that the adequate steps are given to get to the right decision when it needs to be made.
and now I should probably stop procrastinating and get back to revision... Hopefully the above makes a bit of sense and I have not rambled on and on as I sometimes do.
TL;DR: I hope it stays and joins fully, and believe it would be good in the long run, but many things need to change.
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Replace EU with smaller, local unions where the mindsets of the people are more compatible.
Middle European Grand Association: Austria, Benelux, France, Germany, North Italy and maybe even Poland+Czech
Scandinavian Confederate Union of Men: Denmark, Finnland, Norway, Sweden and maybe Baltic states
Iberian and North African Nations Enterprise: Algeria, Morocco, Portugal, Spain, Tunesia
Balkan Union and Mediterran States: Ex-Yugo states, Greece, South Italy
M.E.G.A. is a winner! Imo Denmark should be re-united with Schleswig-Holstein and join MEGA club. And take back Sweden and Norway later, when they ask for it themselves. On their knees. :)
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Interesting how this debate mirrors several states rights debates here in 'Murica over the last couple of centuries. Of course, Baberaham Lincoln settled the question of whether a state can leave the Union a long time ago. Except for Texas. Texas was the only state that previously was a country, so really the state that mirrors your debate the most. Even today there is the Texas Secede! groups that squawk around election time or when the big bad Federal guvmint is interfering with local issues.
While the differences may not seem as pronounced over here, trust me, the same issues you guys are bringing up are the same ones that have caused friction over here as well. Border states have immigration stances different from non-border states. Rich states like Texas and New York don't like propping up the poor ones. They pay more in taxes and get less in return. Labor laws that benefit one state are not so great for another. Ultra conservative states don't want abortions and gay marriage legal, while ultra liberal ones do.
Somehow we've managed to hold everyone together under one banner and I would like to think that we are better for it. It may be difficult, and you may have differences of opinion, but I think overall the EU will be better for it over the coming decades and centuries by sticking it out and resolving the differences and making it work. One day your grandkids will wonder how there ever could have been a real debate about it. Like us in the states, they will likely wonder how anyone could ever think that it would be anything other than United.
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I want the UK out of the EU because I want Britain to be bout british
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I was going to produce a wall of text, but Moncho pretty much nailed the part about romanticized relations to arbitrary surfaces of land.
The EU as in everything linked to it is the difference between the middle ages and now. We got one money, we got free trade, we got unified regulations. Those three things alone make running a business anywhere in the EU several times easier and more productive than before. Another point that is rarely mentioned is "holy fuck, europe not constantly at war !!!".
The "issues" of immigration and "solidarity" (I don't like the word) are actually linked. The Union is made out of the richest countries in the world, plus ex-soviet republics. Those can't really be put together without mixing. Thing is, immigrants provide invaluable ressources to the countries they work for in the form of cheap labour, sometimes very qualified in domains usually neglected. They return home with absurd amounts of money to spend relative to the local cost of life and enrich the country at blazing speeds. The question is, would you rather have those roaring european dragons develop alone and free to do whatever they please like China ?
To try to block immigration in countries that have sound social policies (and this condition is a pretty big deal I agree) is the equivalent of climbing on someone and pushing the ceiling. That doesn't make yourself go higher.
Finally, we may be far from it now, but world government is the future. All the tools to make it work are there, it's only a matter of time. Historically, the trend in political power always has been towards centralisation and optimization, there's no reason for that to stop.
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From: UK
Uni education: Yes
I want us to stay in the EU.
My gf is european, most of my friends and colleagues are from europe. I want europeans and other nationalities to dilute the bigots as much as possible.
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It's not easy to maintain this view when you go to my University and see rooms which havent been modernized since 1978, with crappy gear inside and dirt everywhere...
Don't blame your country for that, blame the University and people who run it. I live in one of the poorest countries in Europe but University I attended has everything new and modernized thanks to good organization and priorities.
Government shouldn't give money to those who aren't capable and can't spend it well imho. You are German, you should understand that better than I do. You guys are the among the hardest working nations in history of humankind, after all.
Also, any immigrant who is working hard is good immigrant. Those lazy ones are the issue. Same goes for lazy natives. People need to realise that competition is getting better and better every day and that some day their poor skills might even be replaced by machines. Work harder, improve yourself and you'll always have a place under the sun.
Not to mention that most UK immigrants are coming from EU countries, which means that money they take home with them is still within EU borders and economy, just not in UK anymore. If you are really for EU you shouldn't have problem with that but I guess most of you aren't.
We had the similar issue in Yugoslavia but sadly, we never managed to get rid of those who weren't for the idea of one big state and "new nationality", to call it that way. In the end those people managed to ruin once very respectable country and split it into many utterly hopeless remnants.