cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Brrrak on May 04, 2013, 06:45:40 pm

Title: Buff Everything around 2h
Post by: Brrrak on May 04, 2013, 06:45:40 pm
Exactly what the title says.  So many people complain and cry out for nerfs to 2h, which has really not seen many, to be fair, and go on and on and on about how it takes no skill to use 2h against other people.  Well, that's not really quite accurate, but it's a good hyperbole for exposing the real problem with 2h vs. most other builds.  See, my assertion is that, as it stands, 2h is just right where it needs to be: beautiful animations, good weapon stats, easy to use and hard to master. 
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So, what are we to do?  Do we just nerf 2h as every other class has been, until we're all running about just boffing each other with nerf swords and nerf bolts and splashing water on each other for throwing weapons?  Or, do we leave 2h where it is, perhaps with a few tweaks(?), and buff everything around where 2h is now?  A lot of you will argue, "2h is so easy, so overpowered, that it will take a huge amount of buffing to get 1h/pole/etc. etc. etc., whatever I play to the point where 2h is."  If it takes that much buffing, I say, let's do all that buffing.

Who's with me?

FRESH EDIT: Seeing some really good ideas being posted here.  That was part of the intent of this thread: not to just gather what the overall feeling regarding 2h vs. other melee is, but also to get ideas on how to better balance things out.

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Title: Re: Buff Everything around 2h
Post by: sF_Guardian on May 04, 2013, 08:45:30 pm
Well, I'd say 2H and 1H are pretty fine atm, love both, I think Pole could use a buff (except of Glaive, the 2 Bardiches and the high end nordic axes),
same as Thrown and unloomed Archers. Don't think Cav or Crossbows need a buff, maybe Ha's.
Imo balance should be made with each item, not with the class in general, I dun think every 2H is as easy to use as HBS/Longsword/Katana and the Greatswords.
Title: Re: Buff Everything around 2h
Post by: Tydeus on May 04, 2013, 09:10:07 pm
Been doing this for months now, have you happened to notice how 2h hasn't been touched, yet the other two classes have had several weapon buffs?
Title: Re: Buff Everything around 2h
Post by: Joker86 on May 04, 2013, 09:40:43 pm
I think you can't pull this off like that, just saying "buff everything", because in least cases the strength growth and the class power shifts resulting from it are linear or proportional.

I am still advertising the battle mode => conquest mode change. This change can bring a lot of change to the class balance, and as a lot of problems which were caused by the relation between infantry and cav/archers would disappear, those classes could be buffed again. And if archers are buffed again the shielder would suffer less from it than the two handers, so on one hand it's similar to your suggestion, but with yet another step put in between, the game mode change.

With battle mode in its current shape any buff of archers and cavalry would again shift the powers away from infantry, never mind how good you buff inf. The reason for this is that the problems of infantry vs. cav + archers do not come from balance problems and tweaking items or skills. They come from the mission objective.
Title: Re: Buff Everything around 2h
Post by: FrugFrug on May 04, 2013, 10:26:44 pm
The only things I complain about with 2h is the super long sweet spot on its stab (Plus the instant hit stab on light armor when hugging.) and the overhead doing full damage after it hits the ground if you turn into the person, otherwise it's decently balanced.
Title: Re: Buff Everything around 2h
Post by: sF_Guardian on May 04, 2013, 10:46:09 pm
If you give 2H 1H leftswing you can buff the rest ;-)
Title: Re: Buff Everything around 2h
Post by: Ulter on May 04, 2013, 11:19:54 pm
Quote from: sF_Guardian on May 04, 2013, 10:46:09 pm
If you give 2H 1H leftswing you can buff the rest ;-)

either of 2h side swings are like 1h leftwing. except head-hitting part :P

Franky, I think the main thing that should be reconsidered regarding 2h are the stab  and halfswording.
Title: Re: Buff Everything around 2h
Post by: Casimir on May 05, 2013, 12:58:06 am
Balancing 2h around greatswords is like balancing all polearms solely around a glaive.
Title: Re: Buff Everything around 2h
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on May 05, 2013, 08:06:28 am
I agree but...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=oKI-tD0L18A
Title: Re: Buff Everything around 2h
Post by: Penguin on May 05, 2013, 09:50:00 am
Why should 2h get nerfed when it's clearly the bastard swords, the longsword, the katana, and the great maul that are vastly greater than every single weapon in the game.

Bastard swords: insane speed and damage coupled with silly stab mechanics and very cheap upkeep cost leave all the 2handers with character (axes, warclubs, goedengag, dadao) to collect dust in the shop.

Longsword: the most powerful and useful weapon in the game. Number 1 weapon on foot, number 1 weapon on horseback. Price is quite affordable and speed and damage, like the bastard swords dominate the battlefield.

Katana: A silly weapon that would, given the period this mod is supposed to be set in, have no practical use against any armor with mail, yet it cuts down even those who wear plate with a speed and length unmatched by any weapon in the game. Pandering to children who watched one too many animes.

Great maul: What can be said about this weapon besides being the strength crutchers wet dream? Long enough to keep your distance, short and light enough to spam in groups of enemies while in a seizure induced crouch that is next to impossible to get a hit on without hurting your teammates. Oh yeah, did I mention it has knockdown?

All of these could be ignored if it wasn't for the greatest flaw of all. Yes 2handers could be very versatile and fast in combat, in light to no armor. We have people in plate and heavy armor doing stabs and maneuvers that are impossible.

Possible solutions:

-Price change, reduce the cost of the longer 2h weapons like the flamberge and great swords, while further increasing price on the longsword and bastard swords. Katanas, being an exotic weapon should cost even more, perhaps as much as the current nodachi

-Reduce the speed on all the weapons listed above.

-Rework the stab mechanics and hitboxes

-Ban everyone who isn't a 2 hander, effectively silencing all opposition and turning the servers into a 2handed dystopia.

-Buff the speed and remove the glance on the backswing for the Long maul. Long mauls are too sensitive to manskirts. This has nothing to do with 2h and is just here for the sliver of a chance that a dev is actively reading what anyone puts in the suggestion forum.
Title: Re: Buff Everything around 2h
Post by: Phew on May 06, 2013, 04:12:32 pm
Quote from: Ulter on May 04, 2013, 11:19:54 pm
either of 2h side swings are like 1h leftwing. except head-hitting part :P

True. And the "head-hitting" aspect of 1h left swing aint all that, because all a 2h user has to do is facehug and ready a swing, and their animation ducks under the 1h left swing animation.

2h is so powerful because it doesn't have a "deadzone". Left side, right side, near, far; any position is a good position to strike. 1h has to fight to keep their target on their left side, pole same thing but right side. For thrusts, 1h has to keep their target at nearly exactly 1m away to not glance, and polearm has very little reach on their thrust anyway. 2h can easily land thrusts at any distance between 0-2m.
Title: Re: Buff Everything around 2h
Post by: Strudog on May 06, 2013, 08:00:03 pm
Buff Polearms (especially Pike and Longspear)
Title: Re: Buff Everything around 2h
Post by: Algarn on May 06, 2013, 08:11:33 pm
Quote from: strudog on May 06, 2013, 08:00:03 pm
Buff Polearms (especially Pike and Longspear)

Yeah , but try to remove the ability to dance with them... That's stupid and that's a pain ...
Title: Re: Buff Everything around 2h
Post by: sF_Guardian on May 06, 2013, 08:19:55 pm
Quote from: strudog on May 06, 2013, 08:00:03 pm
Buff Polearms (especially Pike and Longspear)
If this is serious... :D
Title: Re: Buff Everything around 2h
Post by: Strudog on May 06, 2013, 09:16:09 pm
Quote from: sF_Guardian on May 06, 2013, 08:19:55 pm
If this is serious... :D

Not serious

Quote from: Algarn_of_Nord on May 06, 2013, 08:11:33 pm
Yeah , but try to remove the ability to dance with them... That's stupid and that's a pain ...

1 attack direction and people still fall for the simplest tricks
Title: Re: Buff Everything around 2h
Post by: Byrdi on May 06, 2013, 10:07:25 pm
What makes 2h good is not the stats. Its the animation and the animation is what defines the weapon type.

The other weapon types will never be as good (not that they are that much inferior to 2h) unless someone made new animations.
Title: Re: Buff Everything around 2h
Post by: Phew on May 07, 2013, 01:27:36 am
Quote from: Byrdi on May 06, 2013, 10:07:25 pm
What makes 2h good is not the stats. Its the animation and the animation is what defines the weapon type.

The other weapon types will never be as good (not that they are that much inferior to 2h) unless someone made new animations.

Doesn't take new animations, just tweaking the sweetspot formula on a per-animation basis. cmp says they are all the same right now, so animations that start really far forward (like 1h right swing) are glancefests. If each animation type had its own sweetspot formula, the devs could tweak them until the animations were balanced.
Title: Re: Buff Everything around 2h
Post by: Byrdi on May 07, 2013, 09:15:43 am
Quote from: Phew on May 07, 2013, 01:27:36 am
Doesn't take new animations, just tweaking the sweetspot formula on a per-animation basis. cmp says they are all the same right now, so animations that start really far forward (like 1h right swing) are glancefests. If each animation type had its own sweetspot formula, the devs could tweak them until the animations were balanced.

True, that might do the trick as well. 1h stab and polearms (not on two directional weapons) stab needs some love compared to 2h.
Title: Re: Buff Everything around 2h
Post by: Molly on May 07, 2013, 09:40:15 am
Why is everyone including the Katana as "OP" or "easy to use"?

The stab is the same diva as the 1h stab and you get outreached even by 1h on their right swing... but yea, totally OP.
Title: Re: Buff Everything around 2h
Post by: Daniisme on May 07, 2013, 01:29:51 pm
Quote from: Tydeus on May 04, 2013, 09:10:07 pm
Been doing this for months now, have you happened to notice how 2h hasn't been touched, yet the other two classes have had several weapon buffs?

Like wut? They removed 3 reach from the millitary cleaver and nerfed some other one handers.
Title: Re: Buff Everything around 2h
Post by: Sniger on May 07, 2013, 01:44:39 pm
Quote from: benkei on May 07, 2013, 09:40:15 am
Why is everyone including the Katana as "OP" or "easy to use"?

The stab is the same diva as the 1h stab and you get outreached even by 1h on their right swing... but yea, totally OP.

lol a sharp cut-weapon thats effective in a battle full of tincan heroes is lol
Title: Re: Buff Everything around 2h
Post by: Casimir on May 07, 2013, 02:14:19 pm
Quote from: benkei on May 07, 2013, 09:40:15 am
Why is everyone including the Katana as "OP" or "easy to use"?

The stab is the same diva as the 1h stab and you get outreached even by 1h on their right swing... but yea, totally OP.

The MS has far more problems than the Katana if your gunna complain about reach. Katana thrust can be effective if used properly.

The point is people who complain about 2h focus too heavily on greatswords, weapons that, relatively speaking, are too easy to use.
Title: Re: Buff Everything around 2h
Post by: owens on May 07, 2013, 02:31:08 pm
Katana, longsword and bastard don't do supreme damage but armour in cRPG doesn't do its job.

In reality a katana would not cut through mail rather plate but.... in cRPG bouncing is something that doesn't seem to happen to two handed weapons. If this was sorted out 2H would be a very balanced class but frankly it is a bit of a mess at the moment.

It really does not favor the middle reach slower weapons at all. They are excellent once loomed but an rank 0 two handed sword is only slightly longer than a +1 longsword and loses out in every other way.
Title: Re: Buff Everything around 2h
Post by: peter_afca7 on May 07, 2013, 02:35:26 pm
because of the reach of the 2h stab is that they shouldnt be able to do a wigle hug stab cause thats just weird and stupid   (same as for longspear and hoplite spears)

if they fix that then it should be fine, cause the wigle "instastab" takes also full damage while you shouldnt be able to stab in any case when being that close to youre opponent (same as for longspear and hoplite spears)
Title: Re: Buff Everything around 2h
Post by: Molly on May 07, 2013, 03:55:27 pm
Quote from: Sniger on May 07, 2013, 01:44:39 pm
lol a sharp cut-weapon thats effective in a battle full of tincan heroes is lol
I need at least 6 hits on plate... mostly it's 8...

It works on low and low-medium armor, that's all.

I need at least 3 hits on Stulle, he's an archer. Effective is different. I get one-shot by most 2h-heroes using GS.

Putting Katana in the same group is retarded.
Title: Re: Buff Everything around 2h
Post by: DUKE DICKBUTT on May 07, 2013, 07:18:31 pm
They should just reduce the turn speed of all stabs immensely, except 1h, since the animation is so bad there.  2H, you can have your ridiculously long stab, you just can't turn much with it so that you can insta-stab to the face at point blank.  Hoplites would experience the same issue there and would actually have to work on their spacing.  Pikes and long spears would no longer hook shot your ear for full pierce damage with the shaft.  Maybe even add unbalanced to hoplite stabs and true 2h stabs (pole arm animations maybe excluded.)