cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Germanicus on April 30, 2013, 07:04:43 pm

Title: Maybe a new crossbow?
Post by: Germanicus on April 30, 2013, 07:04:43 pm
well well well..... what about a new crossbow? the old ones well...getting old. maybe something fitting to the chinese like the zhugenu? visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 if one of the devs could make a modell and implement it would be awesome.  it would the first repeater and chinese crossbow in crpg ofc it shouldnt be made op...it can fire 10 bolts without reloading, can be reloaded very quick but is unefficient on greater range, it has very low damage (maybe make it 15 dmg for it and add extra bolts with a higher stock but without aditional damage like the bodkin)  and also it was inaccurate so it would have it ups and downs.  quick reload and a high firerrate in sacrifice of range,damage and accuracy also would maybe attractive to any china style clan.

edit: added wiki link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeating_crossbow
Title: Re: Maybe a new crossbow?
Post by: Phantasmal on April 30, 2013, 08:37:11 pm
I was thinking about this earlier. Give it the damage of the hunting crossbow as well as the accuracy of the light crossbow. Ammo in a clip somewhere between 3-4 and add a 1-1.5 second firing delay between rounds to avoid stacking range stagger on a foe (can be tweaked to accommodate range stagger if too fast). The firing delay could also be done as a "soft cap" in which your accuracy has a cooldown after each shot (big crosshairs). I would also give it the upkeep of somewhere between the heavy xbow and the arbalest and make it not usable on horseback. Give it the missile speed near one of the three lower crossbows to limit range as well as make it 2 slot. It would also probably weigh quite a bit, though that is debatable...
Title: Re: Maybe a new crossbow?
Post by: Germanicus on April 30, 2013, 09:02:46 pm
I was thinking about this earlier. Give it the damage of the hunting crossbow as well as the accuracy of the light crossbow. Ammo in a clip somewhere between 3-4 and add a 1-1.5 second firing delay between rounds to avoid stacking range stagger on a foe (can be tweaked to accommodate range stagger if too fast). The firing delay could also be done as a "soft cap" in which your accuracy has a cooldown after each shot (big crosshairs). I would also give it the upkeep of somewhere between the heavy xbow and the arbalest and make it not usable on horseback. Give it the missile speed near one of the three lower crossbows to limit range as well as make it 2 slot. It would also probably weigh quite a bit, though that is debatable...

well, arabalest would be way to much upkeep for this rather give it normal crossbow upkeep, also it should be less damage and accuracy of the other crossbows (since this was very unnacurate, but thatswhy they got "big" magazines to kinda even that out) i kinda want it to be a bit realistic, thatswhy low damage aswell (it was very unnefective against plates and couldnt or just barrely pierce thatswhy 10-15 pierce damage  would be ok i think 10 bolts with lets say 10 damage are 100 damage but that requires that all hit since this is unlikely the case it would still be less)
Title: Re: Maybe a new crossbow?
Post by: Phantasmal on April 30, 2013, 09:13:44 pm
The only problem is that 10-15 pierce damage would not even penetrate medium armor. Although archers use low damage bows, their Power Draw boosts the damage they do. It would need to be 25-30 pierce minimum to be effective on the battlefield.
Title: Re: Maybe a new crossbow?
Post by: Jarold on April 30, 2013, 09:47:19 pm
Someone has made a model for this in a mod called NordInvasion. But I doubt this would be good for crpg, seems to only be good at trolling.
Title: Re: Maybe a new crossbow?
Post by: Ronin on April 30, 2013, 10:00:24 pm
I don't think that would be only good for trolling, it seems like a nice weapon.
Title: Re: Maybe a new crossbow?
Post by: Peasant_Woman on April 30, 2013, 10:32:58 pm
The only problem is that 10-15 pierce damage would not even penetrate medium armor. Although archers use low damage bows, their Power Draw boosts the damage they do. It would need to be 25-30 pierce minimum to be effective on the battlefield.

This was actually how they were in real life too, anything heavier than cloth was fairly well protected against them. These were only ever used firing down on attackers for maximum effect, unloading 10 bolts in quick succession would probably not kill the victim, they would more likely be only lightly wounded at best as most of the bolts were deflected but their force was instead intended to pin someone in place for a while so that other ranged might make the kill.
If anything they should have damage on the lower end of that range, like 12 so that they can still affect people in the upper end of light armors but for medium armor only the stun would be a factor when facing them. Chain and above should be all but immune to them and plate in any form wouldn't even be stunned a little.

They should be very inaccurate, slow to reload and more of a support weapon really. This could make melee crossbower a thing, I can see this being used to shoot someone at point blank 10 times while the friendly melee just brutalize them. Make them very heavy too then, so that the melee can still catch them when this happens.

Doesn't this seem an interesting enough playstyle to be worth a test? Support Ranged.

If it totally breaks the game can't we just remove them as well? As this bow has been suggested now many times and is always turned down :(.
Title: Re: Maybe a new crossbow?
Post by: Little Lord Lollipop on April 30, 2013, 11:42:37 pm
Proposed Stats:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Maybe a new crossbow?
Post by: Phantasmal on April 30, 2013, 11:57:45 pm
Proposed Stats:

missile speed: 38  - roughly the same as a mid-tier bow
weight: 5 - relatively heavy
accuracy: 75 - least accurate crossbow
difficulty: 9 - middle tier requirement
speed rating: 105 - comparable to heavy crossbow
max ammo: 5 - 5 shots in the chamber
thrust damage: 30 pierce - lowest damage crossbow
slots: 2
Cost: 7481 - between light and regular crossbow
Upkeep: 524
Can't Reload on Horseback
1.5 second delay between shots


I would up the reload time a little bit. 5 shots is a lot to have in the chamber for a relatively short downtime.

For the loom values I would recommend not upping the damage by 8p at +3. This would effectively increase the damage in the "chamber" by roughly 40p for reload which is excessive.
Title: Re: Maybe a new crossbow?
Post by: Ronin on May 01, 2013, 11:43:12 am
Proposed Stats:

(click to show/hide)
This is not the least accurate xbow. Keep in mind that; in crossbows, every 4 damage reduces the actual accuracy by 1.

I did not calculate the values and this still might be the least accurate xbow. But the difference might not be as huge as you think.
Title: Re: Maybe a new crossbow?
Post by: oprah_winfrey on May 01, 2013, 03:57:16 pm
If you want a rapid fire crossbow, just play native.
Title: Re: Maybe a new crossbow?
Post by: Phantasmal on May 01, 2013, 06:42:32 pm
This is not the least accurate xbow. Keep in mind that; in crossbows, every 4 damage reduces the actual accuracy by 1.

I did not calculate the values and this still might be the least accurate xbow. But the difference might not be as huge as you think.

nope accuracy drops by 7 from hunting xbow and pierce drops by 7. Definitely the least accurate xbow by far
Title: Re: Maybe a new crossbow?
Post by: Ronin on May 01, 2013, 07:03:08 pm
Real accuracy values:

Hunting xbow - 73
Light xbow - 72
.
.
.
Arbalest - 69

Zhugenu (what phantasmal suggested) - 68

Ok it is the least accurate, but It doesn't have much difference. That's what I was trying to say actually.
Title: Re: Maybe a new crossbow?
Post by: Germanicus on May 01, 2013, 08:21:07 pm
i thought a bit about it and read a bit more about the zhugenu and i would say those were my stat suggestions

Proposed Stats:

missile speed: 38  - roughly the same as a mid-tier bow
weight: 2,5 - relatively light
accuracy: 73 - least accurate crossbow
difficulty: 6 - low tier requirments
speed rating: 185 - a bit quicker reload then the hunting crossbow (because the  zhugenu didnt used a slider system like over crossbows, if you look at the picture it has a lever)
max ammo: 3 (i read the article in wikipedia again and missunderstood the context, the zhugenu had only 3 bolts)
thrust damage: 20 pierce - lowest damage crossbow (to even it out high reload speed = low damage)
slots: 1 (it was a small crossbow)
Cost: 7481 - between light and regular crossbow
Upkeep: 625
Can't Reload on Horseback
1.0 second delay between shots
Title: Re: Maybe a new crossbow?
Post by: Phantasmal on May 01, 2013, 09:11:56 pm
Real accuracy values:

Hunting xbow - 73
Light xbow - 72
.
.
.
Arbalest - 69

Zhugenu (what phantasmal suggested) - 68

Ok it is the least accurate, but It doesn't have much difference. That's what I was trying to say actually.

I am pretty sure base accuracy (before doing the damage calculations) determines how much accuracy is gained per point in wpf. At 1 wpf this crossbow would only be slightly less accurate then an arbalest. But as you raise weapon proficiency the arbalest would become much more accurate. For proof, make a STF alt with 180 xbow proficiency and bring an arbalest and hunting xbow. You will see that the hunting xbow has a lower accuracy than the arbalest. I would not be opposed to decreasing the accuracy further but I am not entirely certain about the formula relating wpf to accuracy.

i thought a bit about it and read a bit more about the zhugenu and i would say those were my stat suggestions

Proposed Stats:

missile speed: 38  - roughly the same as a mid-tier bow
weight: 2,5 - relatively light
accuracy: 73 - least accurate crossbow
difficulty: 6 - low tier requirments
speed rating: 185 - a bit quicker reload then the hunting crossbow (because the  zhugenu didnt used a slider system like over crossbows, if you look at the picture it has a lever)
max ammo: 3 (i read the article in wikipedia again and missunderstood the context, the zhugenu had only 3 bolts)
thrust damage: 20 pierce - lowest damage crossbow (to even it out high reload speed = low damage)
slots: 1 (it was a small crossbow)
Cost: 7481 - between light and regular crossbow
Upkeep: 625
Can't Reload on Horseback
1.0 second delay between shots

I would prefer not to give 2hers a rapid fire crossbow. I understand that you want the xbow to be uneffective against medium armor but 90% of the server is in an armor value at 40 or above. At 20 pierce against these guys you might as well be shooting nerf darts at them. If that is how you want it to be then there is almost no point in buying one to use. If you used MW steel bolts it would work out decently though, even at 20 pierce (20p-->31p). It would be interesting to make them only compatible with bolts as well... but that is another discussion.
Title: Re: Maybe a new crossbow?
Post by: Ronin on May 02, 2013, 01:15:12 am
Oh I didn't know base accuracy has a such effect. Is it the same for bows too?

One more thing you might want to consider, you should also take into account of headshots. When you can fire more frequently, that also means you will have a higher chance of taking headshots; which would make a such weapon pretty effective. I'm all into the idea by the way, considering it will have a low accuracy; people should learn how to dodge after all.
Title: Re: Maybe a new crossbow?
Post by: Phantasmal on May 02, 2013, 01:34:14 am
Oh I didn't know base accuracy has a such effect. Is it the same for bows too?

One more thing you might want to consider, you should also take into account of headshots. When you can fire more frequently, that also means you will have a higher chance of taking headshots; which would make a such weapon pretty effective. I'm all into the idea by the way, considering it will have a low accuracy; people should learn how to dodge after all.

I have no idea for bows unfortunately, it was just an observation I picked up while using both (I am not really sure how it is calculated actually, unmodified base accuracy is just my guess). With such a low missile speed and accuracy luck will primarily dictate headshots. But as there are more bolts going down range rapidly it is likely you would get a headshot during a round. This could be capped by either a longer firing delay between shots or a longer reload (to limit the number of bolts downrange per minute). A higher strength requirement (like 9 or 12) would also limit the accuracy of the xbow further, meaning less chance of headshots occurring. I have a feeling that aiming for the head would almost be discouraged with this xbow, since the body is a much bigger target and far easier to hit with big crosshairs.
Title: Re: Maybe a new crossbow?
Post by: //saxon on May 02, 2013, 02:04:11 am
the only thing i could think of that would be a problem is the arrow stun, this xbow will be easy to use because of the arrow stun.
Title: Re: Maybe a new crossbow?
Post by: Rumblood on May 02, 2013, 07:46:22 am
Proposed Stats:

(click to show/hide)

I've seen this thing fired on Deadliest Warrior. I also have some stats here that I think show your proposed stats to be quite generous.

Quote
Stephen: Your account on the Chu Ko Nu looks pretty much on to me,  except that the iron lever that draws back the machine gives you about a 3  or 4 to one mechanical advantage, so the actual draw on the prod can be as  much as 100 lb (at about 6-7 inches), with the draw on the lever still  being only about 25 lb. This still makes a pretty weak bow, with about as  much power as perhaps a 35 or 40 lb. handbow. (Compared to English  Longbows from ship Mary Rose, that are calculated as a minimum of 100 lb.  draw at about 22 inches, and the average bow from that find of 139 bows   coming out at about 125-130 lb. draw. (The heaviest max out at about 175  lb. of draw. That oughta take a pretty beefy fellow to draw.....! )
The darts were quite small (8 inches.)

At best that is going to be short bow-bow range of 18-20 damage. The darts are so small they won't be adding any damage, even if pierce. In addition, from the Ming Dynasty text
Quote
It fires weakly so you have to tip the darts with poison

In other words, they weren't built to kill on their own power.

Quote
First, the maximum practical rate of  fire is about 1 shot a second. Attempting to go faster than that can lead  to misfires and scattering bolts all over creation. Sometimes the thing  misfires, and 3 or 4 of the top bolts in the magazine hop right out of the  magazine if it is not closed. /With a little practice you can keep the 10  or so bolts of a magazine pretty much in a 3 foot circle at 15-20 yards.

So a 3 foot circle at about 5-7 steps away from your target. That is not very accurate and at a short range at that. Tests would have to be done, but you are looking at more like a 35-50 accuracy, not 75.
Not just that, but given the likely hood of bolts scattering everywhere, these are not simply not able to reload from horseback, but not usable at all.

Quote
The bolts for this machine are generally unfletched

In other words, past 15-20 yards they get even more inaccurate and I've seen them tumble in air, meaning no penetration at all.

Quote
The Chu Ko Nu is bulky and unwieldy, though not particularly heavy. It  may weigh 10 lb. with bolts in magazine.

Your 5lb weight is too low.

The main thing these had going for them was:

1: they are cheap to make
2: it doesnt take much training
3: put in the hands of hundreds of peasants, it could rain down thousands of projectiles in minutes from high walls at unarmored horses. Accuracy didn't matter, just volume did.

In other words, from a height you could fill the battlefield with projectiles. From the ground, you could fill the next 100 yards or so.

So I ask you, is this what cRPG needs? A weapon designed to spam hundreds more projectiles into the battlefield in a short time span? You think a hill with 10 archers and xbowmen is a pain now with their limited fire rate? Just wait until they are putting out 100 projectiles in 10 seconds, even if they are inaccurate.


Title: Re: Maybe a new crossbow?
Post by: Little Lord Lollipop on May 02, 2013, 09:17:35 am
I want to drink the tears of the 2h heroes. This is the weapon crpg needs.
Title: Re: Maybe a new crossbow?
Post by: Germanicus on May 02, 2013, 12:37:20 pm
I am pretty sure base accuracy (before doing the damage calculations) determines how much accuracy is gained per point in wpf. At 1 wpf this crossbow would only be slightly less accurate then an arbalest. But as you raise weapon proficiency the arbalest would become much more accurate. For proof, make a STF alt with 180 xbow proficiency and bring an arbalest and hunting xbow. You will see that the hunting xbow has a lower accuracy than the arbalest. I would not be opposed to decreasing the accuracy further but I am not entirely certain about the formula relating wpf to accuracy.

I would prefer not to give 2hers a rapid fire crossbow. I understand that you want the xbow to be uneffective against medium armor but 90% of the server is in an armor value at 40 or above. At 20 pierce against these guys you might as well be shooting nerf darts at them. If that is how you want it to be then there is almost no point in buying one to use. If you used MW steel bolts it would work out decently though, even at 20 pierce (20p-->31p). It would be interesting to make them only compatible with bolts as well... but that is another discussion.


nono its not about that i want a unneffective against medium armor etc, i just want it to stick it a bit to realism , since it realy realy wasnt made to  kill tincans and since it pierce even at 20 i think it would penetrate it . and even if it got only 1 damage i would still used only for the sake of being a cho ko nu ( love these guys)


edit: we might need those rice hats aswell....
Title: Re: Maybe a new crossbow?
Post by: Phantasmal on May 02, 2013, 04:13:01 pm
Pappy, I do not think anyone would really use it (at least not enough to affect the flow of battle). It would not be the crossbow to end all crossbows but rather a niche weapon in certain situations or maps. People enjoy getting kills too much to use something that only outputs 20p per shot (not including the bolt, though imo it should only be usable with regular bolts). I think the first week or two will see people testing it out but then its use would drop drastically.
Title: Re: Maybe a new crossbow?
Post by: Rumblood on May 02, 2013, 05:12:58 pm
Then why bother? It would take not only a new model, but a new animated model as it is a weapon with moving parts (and the entire thing moves about). Then it would also require new character animation for the pumping action of it. Then you can get to the actual stats and code to put it in game.

It is a lot of work for a novelty, and if it isn't a novelty then it would be an unwelcome addition to the battlefield. We already have WAY too many "nerf ranged!" threads being posted, even when a ranged item isn't very effective. If it annoys people, they will want it gone, and this is designed almost entirely to harrass and annoy.
Title: Re: Maybe a new crossbow?
Post by: Phantasmal on May 02, 2013, 05:20:54 pm
It would ruin realism but you could have the person pull back the string and then insert mutliple bolts by repeating the load bolt animation over and over again until the clip is full. It ruins realism a little but would be much easier to implement (I think? I am not a programmer but the code should exist already). You could add a "magazine holder" on top of the bow that is for "looks only". But if we are of the opinion that it must be done to be historically accurate then it is not worth it to code new animations and models (unless someone who really wants the xbow in game did it themselves).
Title: Re: Maybe a new crossbow?
Post by: Wolfsblood on May 02, 2013, 06:48:10 pm
(click to show/hide)

made by a person named Ryu. He made it for the nordinvasion mod. It is however not OSP so you would have to ask for his permission first.
Title: Re: Maybe a new crossbow?
Post by: sF_Guardian on May 02, 2013, 07:59:55 pm
Dat arrow stun... certainly not the weapon cRPG needs.
Title: Re: Maybe a new crossbow?
Post by: Germanicus on May 02, 2013, 09:37:03 pm
Dat arrow stun... certainly not the weapon cRPG needs.

what about a shield?
Title: Re: Maybe a new crossbow?
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on May 03, 2013, 04:00:03 am
Just give it cross bow stats, make it three slots and make it cost 8k more than the arb.
Title: Re: Maybe a new crossbow?
Post by: Senni__Ti on May 04, 2013, 02:38:37 pm
Xenoargh made a realistic repeating xbow, it's properly animated too.

It's part of his Blood and steel mod (whole thing is OSP).

Chu ko nu is it's name.