cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Ronin on April 18, 2013, 10:12:15 am

Title: Nemesis of Horses, Polearm Thrust
Post by: Ronin on April 18, 2013, 10:12:15 am
Please read the whole post. I'm not whining about polearm thrusts. There's just one thing that is bothering me.

The problem with pole thrusts are, they stop horses no matter what is the damage dealt. Even 1-2 damage dealt to a plated charger is enough for the rider to be fucked up. This seems ridiculous to me. It is both unrealistic and unbalanced.

Let's say I am a cavalry and riding a mamluke horse (in fact this is true) and I see a pikeman/hoplite unaware of me. Let's say I decided to take the risk and charge him from behind. He didn't see me coming until the latest moment. Then he realized that he is about to be ass-raped and turned towards me. In a desperate hope to stop my horse, he attacked my horse and tickled my horse with his long stick. The result= my mamluke horse recieved 1 damage but somehow insta-stopped. Then I find myself to be caressed by the angry mob/arrows within a couple of seconds.

I don't think this is the result I deserved. In this game I have never seen such a class to have that much superiority over another class. Even no-shielded characters can dodge or hide against arrows, or can hybridize to get small shields/throwing weapons. In such a case I have no option but to charge on (or maybe dismount but that kills the purpose of playing cavalry).

I'd say it can be better if polearms need to do some damage first to stop a horse. I understand that if I get enough damage I should be fucked up as a cavalry. I certainly deserve that in such a case. But there has to be a damage cap. Maybe anything that hurts higher than 5% hp should stop my horse, but anything lower than 5% should not.
Title: Re: Nemesis of Horses, Polearm Thrust
Post by: bruce on April 18, 2013, 10:31:46 am
You can shoot him with a crossbow from horseback.

Or dismount and fight on foot. At least you don't have to press w to walk to battle, so your 2000+ gold upkeep was well spent.
Title: Re: Nemesis of Horses, Polearm Thrust
Post by: Byrdi on April 18, 2013, 12:01:47 pm
(Heavy) cav have just as good an advantage over 1h players with low/medium armour as pikemen have against cavalry.
Cavalry should avoid pikemen as much as low armoured guys should avoid stepping out in the open when there are cav around.

Also, it is good thing that they rear even if the trust glances. I find that you just end up missing horse by an inch, because they can just slow down right before you thrust (this is often the case with shorter (160+) polearms).

All classes have a natural counter part and cavalry are far from bad off in this.
Title: Re: Nemesis of Horses, Polearm Thrust
Post by: BlindGuy on April 18, 2013, 12:07:06 pm
Yes, lets do what OP says, but remove horsebump. Seems fair exchange.
Title: Re: Nemesis of Horses, Polearm Thrust
Post by: bruce on April 18, 2013, 12:26:06 pm
Leave spears alone, remove the ability to survive horsebump!
Title: Re: Nemesis of Horses, Polearm Thrust
Post by: BlindGuy on April 18, 2013, 12:29:09 pm
Leave spears alone, remove the ability to survive horsebump!

Only if the damage is ramped up SO much that teammates insta die aswell, or it will just be a case of ride thru flattening everything, knowing the enemies will die.
Title: Re: Nemesis of Horses, Polearm Thrust
Post by: bruce on April 18, 2013, 12:34:28 pm
Only if the damage is ramped up SO much that teammates insta die aswell, or it will just be a case of ride thru flattening everything, knowing the enemies will die.

Of course!

Any flattened peasant is a job well done for the mounted gentry, there is absolutely no reason to discriminate.
Title: Re: Nemesis of Horses, Polearm Thrust
Post by: BlindGuy on April 18, 2013, 12:55:36 pm
 :lol:
Title: Re: Nemesis of Horses, Polearm Thrust
Post by: Berserkadin on April 18, 2013, 12:58:24 pm
I think the devs made it this way so even a low level peasant in unloomed gear can do some use on the battlefield.
Title: Re: Nemesis of Horses, Polearm Thrust
Post by: Ronin on April 18, 2013, 01:23:05 pm
I suppose you didn't calculate it carefully.

What I suggested won't make low level peasants not be able to stop cavalry. Even a lvl 10 guy with a spear can do some damage to a horse easily with a bit of timing or speed bonus. And if they can do some damage of course that should be rewarded. But if a spearman don't even have a clue about timing and can't damage the horse, should not be able to stop it. What is so wrong with that?
Title: Re: Nemesis of Horses, Polearm Thrust
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on April 18, 2013, 03:10:42 pm
I suppose you didn't calculate it carefully.

What I suggested won't make low level peasants not be able to stop cavalry. Even a lvl 10 guy with a spear can do some damage to a horse easily with a bit of timing or speed bonus. And if they can do some damage of course that should be rewarded. But if a spearman don't even have a clue about timing and can't damage the horse, should not be able to stop it. What is so wrong with that?

Actually you're right.
Even a lowlvl peasant with a scythe SHOULD deal a significant amount of dmg to whatever horse is charging him if he stabs it in the face. Remove no-dmg stabs to horses. Add a minimum damage of 40HP for stopped horses.
Title: Re: Nemesis of Horses, Polearm Thrust
Post by: Gurnisson on April 18, 2013, 03:47:55 pm
Considering how many times the shield of a horseman sucks up the damage from a perfectly placed pike in the horse's head, for the cavalry to continue at full speed and taking 20-30 % of the piker's health with a bump, the low damage thrust is the last to worry about. I played a lot of cavalry on my main btw, and that shield shit was terribly broken, more so than the low damage thrusts that rear horses.
Title: Re: Nemesis of Horses, Polearm Thrust
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on April 18, 2013, 05:12:25 pm
The thrust is REALLY easy to deal with if you know how, especially for heavy cav, it really doesn't need a nerf.
Title: Re: Nemesis of Horses, Polearm Thrust
Post by: Ronin on April 18, 2013, 07:04:55 pm
Actually you're right.
Even a lowlvl peasant with a scythe SHOULD deal a significant amount of dmg to whatever horse is charging him if he stabs it in the face. Remove no-dmg stabs to horses. Add a minimum damage of 40HP for stopped horses.
Clearly a misunderstanding I see.

I'm not talking about idiotic head on charges, I'm talking about...

ah forget it. I explained like 2 times.

Considering how many times the shield of a horseman sucks up the damage from a perfectly placed pike in the horse's head, for the cavalry to continue at full speed and taking 20-30 % of the piker's health with a bump, the low damage thrust is the last to worry about. I played a lot of cavalry on my main btw, and that shield shit was terribly broken, more so than the low damage thrusts that rear horses.
That is indeed broken. So what? Your argument is to keep 2 broken things because they balance each other out in a sense?

The thrust is REALLY easy to deal with if you know how, especially for heavy cav, it really doesn't need a nerf.
Hmm... Can you explain how? Maybe I'm doing something wrong.
Title: Re: Nemesis of Horses, Polearm Thrust
Post by: Gurnisson on April 18, 2013, 07:15:27 pm
So what? Your argument is to keep 2 broken things because they balance each other out in a sense?

They balance each other a bit out, yes. The bug with shield forcefield from horseback has been there for an eternity and I doubt anything is going to happen to it.

In this game I have never seen such a class to have that much superiority over another class.

If you dismount he's at a big disadvantage with his 3 slot weapon which is garbage for 1v1. You can ride your horse slowly and take a hit to the side of your horse (instead of the front which will rear you) and slash/stab him while he's recovering from his thrust. You can kill unaware pikers easily, killing a piker with one other friendly cav or infantry is also easy. And considering horses ram through pikes from time to time, I wonder what why you class it as such a hard counter. :)
Title: Re: Nemesis of Horses, Polearm Thrust
Post by: Ronin on April 18, 2013, 07:36:47 pm
Oh my god finally a proper answer!

Well first of all I must say I am going to try all what you said.

Though I might have gone a bit irrelevant by pointing out the 1v1 cases. It is not wise to duel against a piker as a cav of course. The problem is when it is in a crowded battle. If it is a battle a 1v1 can easily become a 10+v10+
Title: Re: Nemesis of Horses, Polearm Thrust
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on April 18, 2013, 09:45:45 pm
Hmm... Can you explain how? Maybe I'm doing something wrong.
Slow down to a speed where you won't get reared before he hits you, then as he almost glances on your horse you can bumpslash/just slash him.
Title: Re: Nemesis of Horses, Polearm Thrust
Post by: Kafein on April 18, 2013, 10:37:39 pm
Considering how many times the shield of a horseman sucks up the damage from a perfectly placed pike in the horse's head, for the cavalry to continue at full speed and taking 20-30 % of the piker's health with a bump, the low damage thrust is the last to worry about. I played a lot of cavalry on my main btw, and that shield shit was terribly broken, more so than the low damage thrusts that rear horses.

This isn't related specifically to shields. A downblock with a longsword or lance on horseback is just as bad.
Title: Re: Nemesis of Horses, Polearm Thrust
Post by: DUKE DICKBUTT on April 19, 2013, 11:24:06 am
Pikes need to glance more, for example, all shaft hits.  Glances should not rear horses.  These are facts.  However, due to pike's pierce damage, they almost never glance.  Even from two feet away.   They instead deal full damage to the head.
Title: Re: Nemesis of Horses, Polearm Thrust
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on April 19, 2013, 11:40:59 am
Are you really trying to make easymode even easier? Shame on you.

Instead of QQing you could try and open your eyes while riding and check for long, pointy sticks - also called polearms, and not ride into them. Its really not hard you know.
Title: Re: Nemesis of Horses, Polearm Thrust
Post by: Nightingale on April 20, 2013, 03:38:52 am
Are you really trying to make easymode even easier? Shame on you.

Instead of QQing you could try and open your eyes while riding and check for long, pointy sticks - also called polearms, and not ride into them. Its really not hard you know.

I am still reading that as "Charge in head first with a great lance and 11 riding champion courser"
Title: Re: Nemesis of Horses, Polearm Thrust
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on April 20, 2013, 01:00:14 pm
I never really had an issue with it and I used to play with 400 ping :P

You can dive bomb on faster horses, turn and slow and then double back, or my personal favorite, slam on the air brakes (ctrl+j).
Title: Re: Nemesis of Horses, Polearm Thrust
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on April 20, 2013, 02:17:18 pm
and when a horse comes full speed and I thrust a bloody awlpike into its face and it turns around and drives away, that's not BS?

don't complain, you have it easy
Title: Re: Nemesis of Horses, Polearm Thrust
Post by: Ronin on April 20, 2013, 03:40:39 pm
I don't really understand why your reaction is so harsh.

I just wanted to point out something strange I might have found during my game experience. If you did not like the idea that's fine by me but why do you accuse me of crying and complaining. Is this how you are seeing things?

I just offered a damage cap and I thought 5% hp of a horse shouldn't be so high. Dealing 7-8 hp to a horse with a spear should not be so hard after all. I wouldn't be against this idea if I was playing a different class at this moment. I want everyone to enjoy every class, not looking to my benefit only. Hell! I am a onehand/pole and inf/cav hybrid. I also play as a spearman sometimes. When I look at this mechanic in both points of views, I have found this mechanic unfair.
Title: Re: Nemesis of Horses, Polearm Thrust
Post by: LordRichrich on April 21, 2013, 02:14:04 pm
I'll support this IF cav rear if I'm holding my pikes thrust, without me even having to press attack.
Cos none of the horses (afaik) have the blindfolds, and no horse is gonna run into my sharp stick :D
Title: Re: Nemesis of Horses, Polearm Thrust
Post by: Ronin on April 29, 2013, 11:54:22 am
Bump

I retired into twohander and I still want this to be implemented.
Title: Re: Nemesis of Horses, Polearm Thrust
Post by: Ulter on April 29, 2013, 03:09:47 pm
I'll support this IF cav rear if I'm holding my pikes thrust, without me even having to press attack.
Cos none of the horses (afaik) have the blindfolds, and no horse is gonna run into my sharp stick :D

It is actually a good idea, but it should only work if you're standing still. Sort of spear bracing.
(which is neccesary, otherwise your pointy stick would be thrown out your hands and your wrists would be broken IRL)
(click to show/hide)
Except shitty. Because crpg can't have nice things.
QQ