Case and point, how often do you see either of these weapons being used?That's the laziest argument ever.
having a better turn rate still isn't better than the Swiss Halberds damageYou clearly haven't used these type of weapons much, cause it simply is.
You are going to have a hard time hitting anyone with the Swiss turnrate, cause its easy to block and you are not going to surprise anyone.
As the only one who I see regularly use a +3 English Bill on the EU servers... Don't you fucking make it lighter. Sure, the turn speed sucks because of the weight (I've never had a problem with turn speeds myself), but taking away this weapons chance of stunning a lot of weapons is even worse than having the reduced turn speed.I honestly don't understand how you can use this weapon and not have any problems with the turn rate. Surely stunning weapons has a rather small role in the big picture, especially with people just being able to block twice, when you compare it to your ability to aim and target switch?
@teeth if the weight is reduced all of a sudden these weapons no longer stun and become much worse support weapons.Dunno how they do it down under but stun is barely used up here, for good reasons too, stunning someone does not prevent him for blocking twice. The quality of a support weapon is hardly defined by its ability to stun people. If I am supporting teammates fighting a group of people, what use is it to prevent one of them attacking, compared to doing quick target switch and overheading someone in the face when he isn't expecting it? What is the use of preventing one guy to attack for a second, compared to being able to threaten 5 guys at once due to faster turning.
Simply the high weight is advantageous and they are not meant for any 1v1 at all.
I would like to see both having shield breaker
I honestly don't understand how you can use this weapon and not have any problems with the turn rate. Surely stunning weapons has a rather small role in the big picture, especially with people just being able to block twice, when you compare it to your ability to aim and target switch?I don't have a problem with bad turn speed. I never had. I've always been good at predicting where people are moving, so personally it's not a problem. Yes, they should be buffed turn-wise, but not on the cost of the extra weight. Remember that they are working on making turn speed a seperate stat and NOT based on weight/speed. Devs already said they will make the 2d polearms better then, as they were never meant to be affected this much by the change.
I disagree with cost being a good balance method. As an infantryman I have never even considered upkeep as a factor in my equipment choices and I think that goes for most people. Changing the price won't make people use a bad weapon I am afraid.
In my experience top damage is like 10-20% before maximum reach and long weapons do reduced damage when it comes to stabbing close. Of course 30-ish pierce is still devestating so you won't notice it much, but one or two shotting people happens at almost maximum reach.
I've used both of these weapons a lot.Amen.
Bill is a great stunner, and does make it nice if you support any player who's not awful at the game. You'll definitely give a few free hits on enemies with no shield because of the high chance of stunning. However, the turning is trash, absolute garbage, and I hope they could fix that without removing a lot of the weight, since the stunning is part of its niche. As of now, Bill is still a good 2d polearm, but that's because 2d polearms suck in general. The best ones are the ones that are quite long and can be used with a shield (light lance, lance, ashwood, bamboo), because hopliting is a lot stronger than 2d polearms without shield. I've never understood why English Bill is that expensive and have such a high strength requirement. In comparison, all the newest 2d polearms got 12 req, long awlpike 14, but English Bill is way up at 17 for whatever reason, and it's also the most expensive one.
Halberd is shorter, faster and a shield breaker and I find it quite balanced compared to the Bill. However, like most 2d polearms I don't find it balanced to the other support classes like long spear or hoplites. They're just massively inferior ever since the turn rate nerf hurt their 1v1 potential massively.
However, both those weapons are bad compared to the Ranseur and Spetum. Buff English Bill and Swiss Halberd! Buff 2d polearms in general!
I am not much into those theoretical things but stunning an enemy gives the teammate a free hit, no?As far as I know stunning an enemy disables him for starting an attack for the duration of the stun without restricting his blocking at all, unless they changed it in cRPG. Which used to be useful as people were a lot worse at blocking and they would get confused and failblock, now it mostly results in them realizing they are stunned fast enough to do a quick block.
Remember that they are working on making turn speed a seperate stat and NOT based on weight/speed. Devs already said they will make the 2d polearms better then, as they were never meant to be affected this much by the change.I honestly doubt if we are ever going to see this, as they stated it is a lot of work. Although if it is just a matter of determining the specific turnrates I am sure the eventually selected balance panel can do it. If the work is in actually implementing it, this could be years. Until that time no overhead support polearms for me, unless they reduce the turn rate for them :(
As far as I know stunning an enemy disables him for starting an attack for the duration of the stun without restricting his blocking at all, unless they changed it in cRPG. Which used to be useful as people were a lot worse at blocking and they would get confused and failblock, now it mostly results in them realizing they are stunned fast enough to do a quick block.You really didn't spend enough time as 1h no shield :/ Being blockstunned also stops you from changing the block direction for a short time. It sort of locks the block in place for a short time, then you can act again. You always got enough time to block the second attack though, but if you block and get blockstunned, and another guy swings right after, then you got no way to block it.
I honestly doubt if we are ever going to see this, as they stated it is a lot of work. Although if it is just a matter of determining the specific turnrates I am sure the eventually selected balance panel can do it. If the work is in actually implementing it, this could be years. Until that time no overhead support polearms for me, unless they reduce the turn rate for them :(Don't say that! I'm naive and In chadz I Trust! Devs said they would make it! They have to! D:
You really didn't spend enough time as 1h no shield :/That is the funny thing, I don't recall being blockstunned at all during all my time as a 1h without shield. I realized this later as a polearmer and went to the duel server, where I couldn't block stun a niuweidao with a friggin long bardiche no matter how hard I tried. I'd swear they accidentally removed block stun a while ago for some time. Although offtopic, I had to mention this.
That is the funny thing, I don't recall being blockstunned at all during all my time as a 1h without shield. I realized this later as a polearmer and went to the duel server, where I couldn't block stun a niuweidao with a friggin long bardiche no matter how hard I tried. I'd swear they accidentally removed block stun a while ago for some time. Although offtopic, I had to mention this.Yeah, it might be that they bugged block stun for some time. Wouldn't surprise me :)
But yeah, you are right. The block does seem to stick for a short while. Still, just synchronizing your overhead with your teammates swings is effective as well.
Fun weapons. Made another thread for polearms and these, among other bi-directional weapons were included, although I didn't propose the same exact numbers Teeth offered. The weapons do a very large amount of damage for their length, so I feel having mobility on the lower end of the spectrum is deserving.Their length? Yes. They reach? No.
Fun weapons. Made another thread for polearms and these, among other bi-directional weapons were included, although I didn't propose the same exact numbers Teeth offered. The weapons do a very large amount of damage for their length, so I feel having mobility on the lower end of the spectrum is deserving.
You're too focused on thrusts, jarlekAnd you fail to realize the overhead is so slow anyone with a sideswing can just spam you. Yes, it has a lot of reach, but again, the greatsword stabs rival it lengthwise, while still having their sideswings.
English Bill
weapon length: 174
weight: 4
difficulty: 17
speed rating: 89
weapon length: 174
thrust damage: 28 pierce
swing damage: 31 pierce
slots: 2
Can't use on horseback
Can't sheath
31p unloomed on an overhead, polearm animation or not, that 174 length is a lot of reach. The bill has more damage on its overhead than with its thrust(excluding hits with good speed bonuses). Indeed the turn speed was problematic when I was stuck 1v1ing, but only when I tried to start a thrust from too far to the right/left of my opponent and never with an overhead. The last time I played I averaged a 4:1 k:d over the course of four maps with 80+ players in the server. I got valour nearly every single round.
Anyway, it's a minor difference between Teeth's proposed numbers and what I proposed. I don't plan on assuming the weapons are perfect after implementation, if they still need work, then I've nothing against making another tweak thread. Ideally, I'd like to rebalance the bi-directional weapons, or at least some of them. There's room for a much faster bi-directional weapon that allows everyone to utilize the overhead against all opponents and wouldn't require a specific build to do so.
And you fail to realize the overhead is so slow anyone with a sideswing can just spam you.
There's room for a much faster bi-directional weapon that allows everyone to utilize the overhead against all opponents and wouldn't require a specific build to do so.