cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: owens on April 15, 2013, 07:06:37 am

Title: Would archery skill work if wpf and wm were redone?
Post by: owens on April 15, 2013, 07:06:37 am
I like to think that archerys biggest weakeness is how useless melee hybridisation is.

an 18/18 archer can have very good melee stats if they stop at 120 archery wpf.

The problem is with 120wpf you wont hit shit, and when compared to cav were your horse costs 10K (same as a good bow plus arrows) its a no brainer.



People playing archery now are not doing it for battlefield advantage either they are utterly sick of melee, have a loomed set or they really want to rp archery. Playing as an archer especially without loomed eqiupement sucks.
you know every time one of your painfully slow arrows hits a dodging or unaware player that it probably didnt even hurt the guy.



Archers who invest in high wpf (even though ath is useless with 20+ item weight) get the opportunity to fight a fairish fight before they are cut down by a porcupine.
Title: Re: Would archery skill work if wpf and wm were redone?
Post by: rufio on April 15, 2013, 07:08:30 am
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Would archery skill work if wpf and wm were redone?
Post by: Oarsman on April 15, 2013, 08:26:46 am
The problem is with 120wpf you wont hit shit, and when compared to cav were your horse costs 10K (same as a good bow plus arrows) its a no brainer.

:shock: 10k?
I would say 20 - 35 k. Usually you see horses somewhere between the courser and the large warhorse on the servers.
Or is it that different in NA?
Title: Re: Would archery skill work if wpf and wm were redone?
Post by: Muki on April 15, 2013, 08:31:21 am
:shock: 10k?
I would say 20 - 35 k. Usually you see horses somewhere between the courser and the large warhorse on the servers.
Or is it that different in NA?

Some people in NA still ride Plated Chargers from what I saw last week
Title: Re: Would archery skill work if wpf and wm were redone?
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on April 15, 2013, 09:05:38 am
I miss Bertha, she didn't fuck around.

I think the better option is to just put a bit into PT and hurl axes at people. You can make a big old nasty tank, ignore WPF (for melee) altogether and smash some goons with axes.
Title: Re: Would archery skill work if wpf and wm were redone?
Post by: FrugFrug on April 15, 2013, 09:22:02 am
Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

Strength: 15
Agility: 21
Hit points: 60

Skills to attributes: 2

Ironflesh: 5
Power Strike: 5
Athletics: 7
Power Draw: 5
Weapon Master: 7
One Handed: 100
Archery: 146

Great accuracy and amazing melee capabilities.
Title: Re: Would archery skill work if wpf and wm were redone?
Post by: owens on April 16, 2013, 09:50:19 am
^Frug That build is a fairly good one but this still doesnt address the problem.

The 7ath is completely wasted carrying around maybe 20 extra weight.
Title: Re: Would archery skill work if wpf and wm were redone?
Post by: Strudog on April 16, 2013, 10:26:47 am
go HA and then you dont have to worry about it
Title: Re: Would archery skill work if wpf and wm were redone?
Post by: jtobiasm on April 16, 2013, 04:15:42 pm
Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

Strength: 15
Agility: 21
Hit points: 60

Skills to attributes: 2

Ironflesh: 5
Power Strike: 5
Athletics: 7
Power Draw: 5
Weapon Master: 7
One Handed: 100
Archery: 146

Great accuracy and amazing melee capabilities.

I like to kill enemies with my bow not tickle them.
Title: Re: Would archery skill work if wpf and wm were redone?
Post by: Riddaren on April 16, 2013, 08:17:20 pm
You don't need to invest wpp in a weapon profiency to be effective as an archer. Power strike alone is good enough.
But if you still want wpf, you can get 50 wpf in 1H or 2H by sacrificing only a few points in archery.

Rememer that as an archer, you will mostly fight in melee 1 on 1 and speed won't be as important as when you get surrounded, which is more common as a pure melee player.
WPF in melee weapons is not that important. It's a totally different story with archery and throwing.

Title: Re: Would archery skill work if wpf and wm were redone?
Post by: Tibe on April 16, 2013, 09:00:59 pm
I dunno. I definately hit something as archer/1h with 100wpf in archery.Its hard and dedicated archers scrape the floor with your guts yes, but I found it rather enjoyable.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Would archery skill work if wpf and wm were redone?
Post by: Teeth on April 16, 2013, 09:04:45 pm
The reason why archers don't hybridize is because they are afraid that as soon as they play melee, they'll find out how boring archery is.
Title: Re: Would archery skill work if wpf and wm were redone?
Post by: oprah_winfrey on April 16, 2013, 09:11:10 pm
:shock: 10k?
I would say 20 - 35 k. Usually you see horses somewhere between the courser and the large warhorse on the servers.
Or is it that different in NA?

Mostly the same here, although you do see some rounceys.
Title: Re: Would archery skill work if wpf and wm were redone?
Post by: Macropus on April 16, 2013, 09:15:19 pm
The reason why archers don't hybridize is because they are afraid that as soon as they play melee, they'll find out how boring archery is.
Not really. The reason is they are arfaid to lose some shooting capabilities and to become worse archers than pure archers. And as they shoot more than fight, they prefer to stay with good shooting.
If any archer could have some melee capabilities without having to sacrifice shooting capabilities, everyone would be a hybrid.
Title: Re: Would archery skill work if wpf and wm were redone?
Post by: jtobiasm on April 16, 2013, 09:38:01 pm
The reason why archers don't hybridize is because they are afraid that as soon as they play melee, they'll find out how boring archery is.
Funny thing is, you're afraid of archers that's why you now use a shield. umirin?
Title: Re: Would archery skill work if wpf and wm were redone?
Post by: Jarold on April 16, 2013, 09:48:43 pm
When I was an archer for a gen I couldn't go without my melee capabilities. I also couldn't go without my bow doing damage either. I feel like with this build and equipment, you will mop the floor at a range and in melee.

Level 30

18 STR
21 AGI

PS : 6
ATH : 4
PD : 6
WM : 7

Two Handed : 80
Archery : 148 ( I think )

Use the two hander mode on the Langes Messer, Long Bow, and Bodkins you will rape shit. I didn't care about only having one stack of arrows since its a slow shooting long bow.

Armor was Heavy Aketon, Mail Mittens, Padded Iron Hat, and Green Hose with Kneecops.
Title: Re: Would archery skill work if wpf and wm were redone?
Post by: Teeth on April 16, 2013, 10:18:07 pm
Funny thing is, you're afraid of archers that's why you now use a shield. umirin?
Get a shield they said, it will help against ranged they said.

They lied. A shield is fucking worthless, I only use it because it makes my ashwood longer.
Title: Re: Would archery skill work if wpf and wm were redone?
Post by: Kafein on April 16, 2013, 10:26:17 pm
Not really. The reason is they are arfaid to lose some shooting capabilities and to become worse archers than pure archers. And as they shoot more than fight, they prefer to stay with good shooting.
If any archer could have some melee capabilities without having to sacrifice shooting capabilities, everyone would be a hybrid.

The reason most archers don't even bother with developping the melee side of their character is because that is the way of minmaxing. There is no point putting points in melee if you can avoid melee forever.
Title: Re: Would archery skill work if wpf and wm were redone?
Post by: Rumblood on April 16, 2013, 10:31:22 pm
Get a shield they said, it will help against ranged they said.

They lied. A shield is fucking worthless, I only use it because it makes my ashwood longer.

L2Shield!
Title: Re: Would archery skill work if wpf and wm were redone?
Post by: Algarn on April 16, 2013, 10:57:17 pm
The reason why archers don't hybridize is because they are afraid that as soon as they play melee, they'll find out how boring archery is.

Ehm ... I think that's a big mistake to say that : I would looooove to have 100 wpf in 1 handed and 165 in bow , but that's not possible , then , I will have to make a difficult choice between melee and a better accuracy , and I have only 50 wpf in 1handed now .

For interested guys , a funny build for archers

(click to show/hide)

Other funny build

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Would archery skill work if wpf and wm were redone?
Post by: bigsean on April 16, 2013, 11:05:47 pm
sry that build is slow, weak melee and weak archery
Title: Re: Would archery skill work if wpf and wm were redone?
Post by: Algarn on April 16, 2013, 11:07:40 pm
Yeah , I forgotten I'm level 32 and I have 6 PS and 50 in 1 handed , but that's really accurate, and slowness is nothing when you can fight  8-)
Title: Re: Would archery skill work if wpf and wm were redone?
Post by: jtobiasm on April 16, 2013, 11:15:50 pm
Get a shield they said, it will help against ranged they said.

They lied. A shield is fucking worthless, I only use it because it makes my ashwood longer.
THEN USE A LONGSPEAK TEETH!
Title: Re: Would archery skill work if wpf and wm were redone?
Post by: Jarlek on April 17, 2013, 12:07:59 am
Get a shield they said, it will help against ranged they said.

They lied. A shield is fucking worthless, I only use it because it makes my ashwood longer.
Hey! That's my line!

But seriously though, people saying "get a shield" to deal with archers got no idea what they are talking about. Better to get 7 or 8 athletics and go shieldless if you want to hunt archers. Throw in 2 PT and it's even better.
Title: Re: Would archery skill work if wpf and wm were redone?
Post by: Banok on April 17, 2013, 12:14:15 am
im trying to do a sort of archer/mele hybrid, lvl 25 now. and yeah its easy to be effective in mele with low level/wpf, I can solo tin cans. but I cannot compete vs other archers who have 150+ wpf. they shoot faster and at ranges I cannot hit.

so yeah I'd be up for it scaling less, so archer is better at lower levels, and not as op at lvl 31+

but its gotta be balanced so ppl don't all go str builds.

ps: i would like to blame most my TH's on the release delay on bow, when was this added?
Title: Re: Would archery skill work if wpf and wm were redone?
Post by: oprah_winfrey on April 17, 2013, 12:34:55 am
Hey! That's my line!

But seriously though, people saying "get a shield" to deal with archers got no idea what they are talking about. Better to get 7 or 8 athletics and go shieldless if you want to hunt archers. Throw in 2 PT and it's even better.

Archer response: Don't chase after the archer, just use the shield to not die.
Title: Re: Would archery skill work if wpf and wm were redone?
Post by: Jarlek on April 17, 2013, 01:13:20 am
Archer response: Don't chase after the archer, just use the shield to not die.
My response to that: Shields are still worse. Shields only cover on side, you can still get shot from the other 3. The movement speed loss is from shields is not worth it. I have an easier time dodging arrows with 4 athletics and no shield than 6 and with one. Besides, when you start dodging the arrows from one archer, you automatically start dodging ANY arrows coming your way, no matter if you are aware or not. Using a shield requires a lot more awareness.

Also, in battle you HAVE to kill all enemies. Not chasing archers isn't an option.
Title: Re: Would archery skill work if wpf and wm were redone?
Post by: Ulter on April 17, 2013, 06:47:31 am
Also, in battle you HAVE to kill all enemies. Not chasing archers isn't an option.

Then the problem is the gamemode, not archers. It's already been suggested to replace battle with conquest, which would solve that.
Title: Re: Would archery skill work if wpf and wm were redone?
Post by: Macropus on April 17, 2013, 09:01:46 am
My response to that: Shields are still worse. Shields only cover on side, you can still get shot from the other 3. The movement speed loss is from shields is not worth it. I have an easier time dodging arrows with 4 athletics and no shield than 6 and with one. Besides, when you start dodging the arrows from one archer, you automatically start dodging ANY arrows coming your way, no matter if you are aware or not. Using a shield requires a lot more awareness.

Also, in battle you HAVE to kill all enemies. Not chasing archers isn't an option.
IMO:
When I was shielder with only 6 athletics, I never had any problems with archers. All you have to do is to make sure that most of enemy ranged are at one side, shield even blocks projectiles when you don't press RMB. And playing without shield requires more awareness - you have to keep your eye on enemies to know where are they standing, where are your teammates and when is a good moment too engage, so that enemy ranged are busy and will not shoot you.
I can say for sure that with 6 athletics and shield I felt way more safe than now with 10 athletics without shield.

PS: or maybe im just a noob ninja  :D
Title: Re: Would archery skill work if wpf and wm were redone?
Post by: Kafein on April 17, 2013, 12:46:53 pm
IMO:
When I was shielder with only 6 athletics, I never had any problems with archers. All you have to do is to make sure that most of enemy ranged are at one side, shield even blocks projectiles when you don't press RMB. And playing without shield requires more awareness - you have to keep your eye on enemies to know where are they standing, where are your teammates and when is a good moment too engage, so that enemy ranged are busy and will not shoot you.
I can say for sure that with 6 athletics and shield I felt way more safe than now with 10 athletics without shield.

PS: or maybe im just a noob ninja  :D

You see, the problem is about expectations. If by having a shield you expect not being shot from whatever is exactly in front of you at the cost of halved mobility and inability to attack, a shield is fine I guess. If you expect a shielder build to have the ability to counter archers the way archers counter *everything* (but mostly shieldless inf), then you are in for a disappointment.

It's always funny when one side is losing to an archery-intensive team everybody on that side is telling the others to kill the archers. Cav won't do it because they get shot and dismounted first, shielders won't do it because they get triangulated and kited, so they all try to convince their teammates to go play meatshield.
Title: Re: Would archery skill work if wpf and wm were redone?
Post by: karasu on April 17, 2013, 01:02:09 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Would archery skill work if wpf and wm were redone?
Post by: sir_Ady on April 19, 2013, 05:43:08 pm
Archer response: Don't chase after the archer, just use the shield to not die.

Well, another response: why don't you grab a bow and shoot the archer? It's basically the same as expecting an archer to do melee and have any chance against a pure melee char... and needs no more investment, neither :)
Title: Re: Would archery skill work if wpf and wm were redone?
Post by: MrChubbikins on April 19, 2013, 07:36:05 pm
Would archery skill work if wpf and wm were redone?

No, archery is broken. It takes me more than one arrow to head shot people nowadays with 6 PD and MW horn bow. not to mention arrows are so slow people can literally dodge arrows point blank. When 2handers aren't scared of walking up-hill directly into volleys of arrows, there is a problem.
Title: Re: Would archery skill work if wpf and wm were redone?
Post by: HappyPhantom on April 22, 2013, 12:45:29 pm
^this.

Title: Re: Would archery skill work if wpf and wm were redone?
Post by: Riddaren on May 03, 2013, 03:05:19 pm
No, archery is broken. It takes me more than one arrow to head shot people nowadays with 6 PD and MW horn bow. not to mention arrows are so slow people can literally dodge arrows point blank. When 2handers aren't scared of walking up-hill directly into volleys of arrows, there is a problem.

Lies. Archery is far from broken and you can only dodge arrows 99 times of 100 at 50m range, if not more.