cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Vicious666 on January 06, 2011, 09:53:28 pm

Title: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Vicious666 on January 06, 2011, 09:53:28 pm
Since talk is useless, whine is useless, cry is useless.
since i was a scripter for ultima online for 5 year, and balanced a lot of pvp for many  servers.
here are  EVIDENCE, MATHEMATICS, not questionable, not  passible by interpretation     or opinions.


TEST ON 15 ROUNDS:


when i have time i will post a  test based on 100 rounds, since win or lose, or get on the winning side is lucky,    and more high are the numbers more precise is the statistic.

but even considering a high round average lest say 3x, so 150g  for average round of 4 min,            is 600g x 15 =   9k gold,     (and we are talking about 15x round at  3x     so 150gx )      where even the upkeep for  a 9k worth of equip is 6k,  so only 3k gain,           that means if you go at  15k worth of equip,       even at  sooooooo generous winning strike of 15x  rounds     at 3x,      you lose money.

EQUIPMENT :  total cost    9145


scimitar (simple one)           cost : 3380
sarranid padded vest          cost : 975
leather gloves                    cost : 202
rabati (a helm )                 cost : 1219
norman shield                   cost : 3226
khergit leather boots         cost : 143



ROUNDS X 15 MONEY GAINED :

ROUND 1 :    50G X 5 MIN = 250 G
ROUND 2 :    50G  X 4 MIN = 200 G
ROUND 3 :  100G X 5MIN = 500 G
ROUND 4 :  50G  X 4 MIN = 200 G
ROUND 5 : 50G X 4 MIN = 200 G
ROUND 6 : 50G X 6 MIN = 300 G
ROUND 7 : 100 G X 5 MIN = 500 G
ROUND  8 : 150G X 4 MIN = 600 G
ROUND 9 : 50 G X 6 MIN = 300 G
ROUND 10 : 100G X 4 MIN = 400 G
ROUND 11 : 50G X 4 MIN = 200 G
ROUND 12 : 50G X 5 MIN = 250 G
ROUND 13 : 100G X 4 MIN = 400 G
ROUND 14 150G X 3 MIN = 450G
ROUND 15  200G X 5 MIN = 1000 G


TOTAL  G EARNED IN 15 ROUNDS :  5750  G

TOTAL  G LOOSED IN 15 ROUNDS  5933

SCIMITAR                 repair cost  676     X4
NORMAN SHIELD       repair cost 645    X3
SARRANID PADDED  VEST  repair cost 195   X3
LEATHER BOOTS      repair cost  28         X2
LEATHER GLOVES    repair cost  57         X4
RABATI      (HELM )  repair cost  24  x 2










this is proofed         and tested


cant even upkeep  a 9k equip lol

with average lucky on  team winning.











another things to balance that is not an opinion but is mathematic.

upkeep between   1h and 2h   are not even.

2 hander top sword (rarely used,   cost 15450,  but most used are cookies and  tear 11,6 and 12k,   i now name are changed ... )
1 hander top sword  (most used    cost 8/9k ,  long espada eslavona.    side sword     )         point is   1h not cost  50% of 2h,       but almost  85% of the cost of a 2h,  if you add to this the  shield,       most common =     huscarl    is another 6k,           upping the cost for the average   1h+shield to   15k+.

if you wanna use top       vs top equip,

is  15450  flamberge  vs          8922 (side sword) + 10422  (steel shield)         19344            THAT SEAMS EVEN,     (that is not for sure since 90% of 2hnaders use 11k-12k sword so difference is   7K+,           if you consider that  more items means more % to pay upkeep.   is again uneven     )





the new formula,    add more % to have a broken item even at winning side, that  make shielders         upkeep more than 2handers. withouth consider that  changing from 3 to 4%     is a 33% increase,          upkeep from 20  to 5  is a -75%   but with       upkeep every round is a +100%        so  upkeep now is the same of previous at 66%   
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Kocik_4th on January 06, 2011, 09:57:52 pm
They won't understand it cuz they're kings.  It's only made by complexes against tincans.

ITS NOT HARD TO SEE. CHECK REPAIR POLL AND %50+ SAYS   "REPAIR SUX"
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on January 06, 2011, 10:06:13 pm
In one or two weeks, one (perhaps myself) will make a second Repair poll. LETS SEE WHAT THEY WILL VOTE THEN!
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: chadz on January 06, 2011, 10:20:35 pm
What is this supposed to be?

Tell me, what is the average gold you can upkeep with 0.201, assuming you have a multiplicator of 1 all the time? No examples, mathematics. I know the value, do you?

(keep it short)
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Tristan on January 06, 2011, 10:30:07 pm
I can upkeep 25k no problem and still make lots of money.

Increase upkeep!

edit: oh.. 30+ eq and no problem making upkeep.
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: DrKronic on January 06, 2011, 10:31:47 pm
Actually me being an electrical engineer with a masters focus on statistics for manufacturing I.E LEAN SIX SIGMA, probability your equation on 2h vs 1h leaves out very simple fact. It is highly improbable that the shield and sword both break each time simultaneously. On the other hand the 2h sword or for that matter any twice as expensive item will tend to cost u more upkeep because there is no such thing as a half repair or half break

I also contend that mathematics is a very debatable science what form of statistical test are you using I.e one sided z etc

Also to what degree of accuracy do you expect to attain with such a small sample size

Unfortunately to really judge this we need a large sample size and also we will need you to establish controls

Example we need to determine if in those rounds u lost were u trying to actually win or were u so full of rageQQ that u contributed to ur team losing, only after we establish this and more can we truly understand ..statistically what the repair and upkeep really does and get closer to finding out the average upkeepable equipment

Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Ujin on January 06, 2011, 10:33:05 pm
Upkeep is fine atm imo.
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Vicious666 on January 06, 2011, 10:37:02 pm
What is this supposed to be?

Tell me, what is the average gold you can upkeep with 0.201, assuming you have a multiplicator of 1 all the time? No examples, mathematics. I know the value, do you?

(keep it short)


sorry chadz what you not get in this? that a 9k  user      is losing money instead making anything?            is only based on the lucky of the teams even .


potentially you cant upkeep even a 5k   equipment if you get all bad rounds.       



and what you means with    average gold you can upkeep ?       if i have 200k and wear 9k of stuff, i am losing slowly gold,     what matters  how much i have in bank ?



over 50% of player of your mod say that this system sux, what you wanna elsE?  the mathematic proof that is not sustainable,     also IS BORING, tedious mechanic,        i never remember something like this in all crpg story,    where majority of ppl clearly     not wanna one thing     .
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Helrekkr on January 06, 2011, 10:39:51 pm
Are you people still seriously whining about this ? You can easily upkeep light gear even if you lose most of the time now.
If you go on a win streak you can upkeep plate and still make money.

What do you want ? 10k gold for free at the begining of each round ?
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on January 06, 2011, 10:40:22 pm
I must've been insanely lucky for earning 60000.
With equipment worth 14 000 about.
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Vicious666 on January 06, 2011, 10:40:34 pm
Actually me being an electrical engineer with a masters focus on statistics for manufacturing I.E LEAN SIX SIGMA, probability your equation on 2h vs 1h leaves out very simple fact. It is highly improbable that the shield and sword both break each time simultaneously. On the other hand the 2h sword or for that matter any twice as expensive item will tend to cost u more upkeep because there is no such thing as a half repair or half break

I also contend that mathematics is a very debatable science what form of statistical test are you using I.e one sided z etc

Also to what degree of accuracy do you expect to attain with such a small sample size

Unfortunately to really judge this we need a large sample size and also we will need you to establish controls

Example we need to determine if in those rounds u lost were u trying to actually win or were u so full of rageQQ that u contributed to ur team losing, only after we establish this and more can we truly understand ..statistically what the repair and upkeep really does and get closer to finding out the average upkeepable equipment



becouse even considering all rounds at 3x     (HIGHLY IMPROBABLE ) you cant upkeep anything over 15k-20k   total worth of equipment
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: chadz on January 06, 2011, 10:41:24 pm
Vicious, you obviously missed the update to 0.201.

Get it, do the math, that fix was done just because of the reason many people disliked the 0.200 version.

(if you don't want to do the math, play for some hours, then report the result)
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Ginosaji on January 06, 2011, 10:43:05 pm
Since chadz has the possibility to log every damaged item as well as the amount of gold a player earns and since I'm sure that he does log these values, I'm also very confident that he knows very well how long an average 9000G char can maintain his equipment.

Also, this mod is beta! We're all testers, don't forget that. chadz can test as many values and numbers with us as he wants.
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Ujin on January 06, 2011, 10:43:26 pm
You're doing it wrong.
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Vicious666 on January 06, 2011, 10:44:13 pm
I must've been insanely lucky for earning 60000.
With equipment worth 14 000 about.


thats the point,         is all what crpg reduced  ?  get lucky on         random team balance?               



no skill
no lev difference
no equip






as i say i gonna repost this with 100 or 200     rounds.         for define      what is max you can upkeep and still gaining gold.               at average.     but already  evaluating all rounds at 3x,        you cant upkeep more than a 20k worth of equip.       and hardly you will get a 15x  win strik  of rounds all at 3x
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: [ptx] on January 06, 2011, 10:44:35 pm
I am easily upkeeping equipment with a value of 22k gold, even making more slowly. Buff upkeep!
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Vicious666 on January 06, 2011, 10:46:05 pm
Vicious, you obviously missed the update to 0.201.

Get it, do the math, that fix was done just because of the reason many people disliked the 0.200 version.

(if you don't want to do the math, play for some hours, then report the result)


chadz i am playng only  for the statistics with my 9k worth of equip and still now at round 26,     losing gold instead making.

but more important is frustrating losing gold even when you win and do 10:1       
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Vicious666 on January 06, 2011, 10:48:56 pm
I am easily upkeeping equipment with a value of 22k gold, even making more slowly. Buff upkeep!

that the limit possible.     fact is you are a good player you do first rounds good.

means dunno 7 kill 10  ? 1 death ?

when balance it will transfer all good player on other team     

(autobalance is  rotten as hell tbh )

that means majority of good player than will be stuck at one side,     thats why you upkeep 22k worth of stuff,        cause  bad autobalance.


but for other 70% of player.     is not possible.         

thats why  i not make kills       i only spawn whit equip AND DIE.     if i kill i end on winning side all time.         and   statistic is fucked,      you cant base upkeep     statistic  together with autobalance,  becouse autobalance fuck all.                         i am doing worst scenario     where all is random  i die 0:1 i  sometimes get win team sometime lose team.

that not applicable for good player who do many kills and 75% get on winning team due to autobalance





since this method exited i see majority of games,       go  5:0       4:1       etc 
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Beans on January 06, 2011, 10:50:39 pm

thats the point,         is all what crpg reduced  ?  get lucky on         random team balance?               



no skill
no lev difference
no equip






as i say i gonna repost this with 100 or 200     rounds.         for define      what is max you can upkeep and still gaining gold.               at average.     but already  evaluating all rounds at 3x,        you cant upkeep more than a 20k worth of equip.       and hardly you will get a 15x  win strik  of rounds all at 3x

This is the worst formatted post I have ever seen posted on a forum. If you are trying to breakdown complicated mathematical systems you need to make it at least readable.
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: [ptx] on January 06, 2011, 10:51:48 pm
I am doing that on my as of yet not exactly high level archer. I am not doing well, in fact i am losing most rounds. Yet i make gold. I even made gold, when there was still 20% upkeep.
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Ishar on January 06, 2011, 10:52:13 pm
I have a feeling there are several words missing in Vicious' every post. I tried filling the gaps, but failed.
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Ganon on January 06, 2011, 10:52:45 pm
Can we see the math behind these upkeep settings ? A guy did the math earlier and it turned out it was wrong, i'd like to see it and check if there's the same mistake.
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Vicious666 on January 06, 2011, 10:55:18 pm
I have a feeling there are several words missing in Vicious' every post. I tried filling the gaps, but failed.


in have feeling that instead concentrate on a    fucking rotten autobalance+upkeep system you prefer troll my english.



archers  means nothing for upkeep you wear shit and majority of your gold is on the bow,     who is only 1 item.          so less chance to pay upkeep than sword+shield
your upkeep in  arrow is also low.
consider a poor  shield+weapon user with 2x  THROWING  you now he pay     upkeep for 4x items?        and throwing cost a fuckload of gold?     
cmon dont make me fight the  wind mill,          even a monkey can do calc for see that      unless you get some kill on first round and get autobalance stuck with many others good,   you cant upkeep      more than 15k of stuff   , if you a bad player?       and have 0,5 kd?  not more than 10k
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Kiriath on January 06, 2011, 11:00:34 pm
Since talk is useless, whine is useless, cry is useless.
since i was a scripter for ultima online for 5 year, and balanced a lot of pvp for many  servers.
here are  EVIDENCE, MATHEMATICS, not questionable, not  passible by interpretation     or opinions.


TEST ON 15 ROUNDS:


when i have time i will post a  test based on 100 rounds, since win or lose, or get on the winning side is lucky,    and more high are the numbers more precise is the statistic.

but even considering a high round average lest say 3x, so 150g  for average round of 4 min,            is 600g x 15 =   9k gold,     (and we are talking about 15x round at  3x     so 150gx )      where even the upkeep for  a 9k worth of equip is 6k,  so only 3k gain,           that means if you go at  15k worth of equip,       even at  sooooooo generous winning strike of 15x  rounds     at 3x,      you lose money.

EQUIPMENT :  total cost    9145


scimitar (simple one)           cost : 3380
sarranid padded vest          cost : 975
leather gloves                    cost : 202
rabati (a helm )                 cost : 1219
norman shield                   cost : 3226
khergit leather boots         cost : 143



ROUNDS X 15 MONEY GAINED :

ROUND 1 :    50G X 5 MIN = 250 G
ROUND 2 :    50G  X 4 MIN = 200 G
ROUND 3 :  100G X 5MIN = 500 G
ROUND 4 :  50G  X 4 MIN = 200 G
ROUND 5 : 50G X 4 MIN = 200 G
ROUND 6 : 50G X 6 MIN = 300 G
ROUND 7 : 100 G X 5 MIN = 500 G
ROUND  8 : 150G X 4 MIN = 600 G
ROUND 9 : 50 G X 6 MIN = 300 G
ROUND 10 : 100G X 4 MIN = 400 G
ROUND 11 : 50G X 4 MIN = 200 G
ROUND 12 : 50G X 5 MIN = 250 G
ROUND 13 : 100G X 4 MIN = 400 G
ROUND 14 150G X 3 MIN = 450G
ROUND 15  200G X 5 MIN = 1000 G


TOTAL  G EARNED IN 15 ROUNDS :  5750  G

TOTAL  G LOOSED IN 15 ROUNDS  5933

SCIMITAR                 repair cost  676     X4
NORMAN SHIELD       repair cost 645    X3
SARRANID PADDED  VEST  repair cost 195   X3
LEATHER BOOTS      repair cost  28         X2
LEATHER GLOVES    repair cost  57         X4
RABATI      (HELM )  repair cost  24  x 2










this is proofed         and tested


cant even upkeep  a 9k equip lol

with average lucky on  team winning.











another things to balance that is not an opinion but is mathematic.

upkeep between   1h and 2h   are not even.

2 hander top sword (rarely used,   cost 15450,  but most used are cookies and  tear 11,6 and 12k,   i now name are changed ... )
1 hander top sword  (most used    cost 8/9k ,  long espada eslavona.    side sword     )         point is   1h not cost  50% of 2h,       but almost  85% of the cost of a 2h,  if you add to this the  shield,       most common =     huscarl    is another 6k,           upping the cost for the average   1h+shield to   15k+.

if you wanna use top       vs top equip,

is  15450  flamberge  vs          8922 (side sword) + 10422  (steel shield)         19344            THAT SEAMS EVEN,     (that is not for sure since 90% of 2hnaders use 11k-12k sword so difference is   7K+,           if you consider that  more items means more % to pay upkeep.   is again uneven     )





the new formula,    add more % to have a broken item even at winning side, that  make shielders         upkeep more than 2handers. withouth consider that  changing from 3 to 4%     is a 33% increase,          upkeep from 20  to 5  is a -75%   but with       upkeep every round is a +100%        so  upkeep now is the same of previous at 66%   


Im not gonna bother pointing out all the fail in ur post, ill just state the obvious instead;

Your a fucking idiot.
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on January 06, 2011, 11:02:20 pm

in have feeling that instead concentrate on a    fucking rotten autobalance+upkeep system you prefer troll my english.
your english is not the main problem, its the strange paragraphs and gaps u make are most confusing.
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: DrKronic on January 06, 2011, 11:05:40 pm
So wait your doing a worst case test, but see the problem is players that purposely lose help their team lose and therefore you skew the result towards the answer u wanted

I.E that you can't upkeep alot if u lose all the time

But you're missing the point

Play to win for a week and analyze those results
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Vicious666 on January 06, 2011, 11:09:15 pm
Vicious, you obviously missed the update to 0.201.

Get it, do the math, that fix was done just because of the reason many people disliked the 0.200 version.

(if you don't want to do the math, play for some hours, then report the result)

i am doing this on 2.01.


and from 3 to  4% is a 33% increase
upkeep 5%  from 20% is a -75%
but with +100%   since happens all rounds

so overall upkeep is 66% of old one.     with difference that now happens much more often,        previously on winning you where payng nothiung even for 5 rounds,  now you pay even if winning 66% of old one,          so upkeep is increased not decreased.                sure when you pay you pay less, but yoy pay much more often.            previously you payed only for losing now always.     

so if yesterday you made dunno 10 rounds, and win 7 and lose 3.         you got check for payment  only in 3 rounds, lets say 10k x round = 30k
now,    sure you pay 6,6k    but you do that in all 10 rounds win or losing. so 66k      and the % to pay is even more.      (the % not augmented only by 33% it augmented of 33% x number of rounds )

so overall upkeep is higher.

was decreased for real if system remained the same,  you lose? you pay
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Vicious666 on January 06, 2011, 11:10:31 pm
So wait your doing a worst case test, but see the problem is players that purposely lose help their team lose and therefore you skew the result towards the answer u wanted

I.E that you can't upkeep alot if u lose all the time

But you're missing the point

Play to win for a week and analyze those results


you not get     win or lose not  matters anything with this system, since you get upkeep check anyway.          is merely a question of  not killing much first round

worst case =  you die first round and autobalance keep you on loosing time while all good player who made a nice killing streak, are team stucked on the other.     
worst case in this sence becouse even if you on 2nd round do 10:1        you keep remain on losing side :)
point here is that  wrong autobalance+  upkeep  = total fail on upkeep for someone who not kill much   


imho we need a balance every round, yes you  heard me, every round so  we have better division of good players.   or minimum once every 2 round  or at round 1 3 and 5
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Sauce on January 06, 2011, 11:26:10 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Helrekkr on January 06, 2011, 11:35:03 pm
i am doing this on 2.01.


and from 3 to  4% is a 33% increase
upkeep 5%  from 20% is a -75%
but with +100%   since happens all rounds

so overall upkeep is 66% of old one.     with difference that now happens much more often,        previously on winning you where payng nothiung even for 5 rounds,  now you pay even if winning 66% of old one,          so upkeep is increased not decreased.                sure when you pay you pay less, but yoy pay much more often.            previously you payed only for losing now always.     

so if yesterday you made dunno 10 rounds, and win 7 and lose 3.         you got check for payment  only in 3 rounds, lets say 10k x round = 30k
now,    sure you pay 6,6k    but you do that in all 10 rounds win or losing. so 66k      and the % to pay is even more.      (the % not augmented only by 33% it augmented of 33% x number of rounds )

so overall upkeep is higher.

was decreased for real if system remained the same,  you lose? you pay

Maths ? really ?  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Vicious666 on January 06, 2011, 11:37:10 pm
I have 21k worth of gear and I'm still able to make profit. No idea what I'm doing right and everyone is doing wrong.


nothing

thats the point


is merely lucky.




on a calculation based on a week  (7 day) of play,  at  worst possible condition   50x g x round always, you should keep 25k of equip.      but no chance to buy anything.        and may you have day where you naked and cant repair and day when you barely handle it.

the fact is, is random, is not fun, not based on skill at all,       only on autobalance + upkeep    randomness
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Ganon on January 06, 2011, 11:39:31 pm
21k is affordable, with a 1x multiplier you can afford 25k worth of gear, now calculating the average multiplier is a little more tricky, i'll go by intuition and say it's 1.5 (don't ask me why, if you want to know the correct value go ahead and calculate it), so by playing normally you should be able to afford 37k worth of gear on average. You cannot possibly afford better unless you kill the half the opposing team all by yourself every round, which only a handful of players are able to do and only when autobalance fails. edit: obviously this is with 0 gold added to your account in the long run, if you want to buy better items you have to fight naked.
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Garrus on January 06, 2011, 11:44:11 pm
I'm going upward with my light-medium gear (~20k),
and sometimes I can ride my destrier in full plate few rounds in a row. (~85k)
absolutely okay, have to play a bit smarter

EDIT: in my 20k gear I have a tier1 sword, what else need to defend myself ?
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Ishar on January 07, 2011, 12:00:02 am
EDIT: in my 20k gear I have a tier1 sword, what else need to defend myself ?

Skill.
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Vicious666 on January 07, 2011, 12:03:03 am
Skill.


only skill you have mister ishar is troll skill you have 17 point   can you wonder why?
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Garrus on January 07, 2011, 12:04:49 am
Skill.

Skill is only for children and women and child-women !
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Vicious666 on January 07, 2011, 12:07:00 am
What is this supposed to be?

Tell me, what is the average gold you can upkeep with 0.201, assuming you have a multiplicator of 1 all the time? No examples, mathematics. I know the value, do you?

(keep it short)


assuming  x1 all time, 250g round so 5 mins       max is 25k  or 37 k (as say ganon)

point is    this prospective is   an average so you can have days where you cant afford to repair, and days where you have extra money or barely gaining it/manteining your equip.     

we are playng on the edge of a razor btw.   
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Garrus on January 07, 2011, 12:10:30 am
Your calculations considers the law of large numbers ?
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: ViiKOLD on January 07, 2011, 12:12:29 am
It's somewhat funny to see famous cav players running in some fur armor on palfeys  :lol: I so get used to their old look, now you can see their "real" faces.

I like upkeep system but need to agree with Vicious on a matter that too much "luck" is involved into items degradation.
Played about 12 rounds in cheap gear as hobo cav and paid like 5 times, for my black hood - 9 gold  :mrgreen: Accumulated some money and decided to use my "normal" gear, next round I'm getting teamswitched, our team is getting owned and I'm paying for repear of destrier and brigandin.... Sooo, how can I raise my luck? Go to church? Become buddist?

I'm not whining, it's fun in its own way, just would be nicer if system would be more predictable in terms of risk & gain. Higher the risk - more you can gain or loose.
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Ganon on January 07, 2011, 12:13:05 am
Your calculations considers the law of large numbers ?

His english might be bad but i read his post as considering that law, some days you lose gold, others you gain, if you have 25-37k worth of equip you should be even given a large enough number of games.
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Vicious666 on January 07, 2011, 12:13:29 am
You calculated in the law of large numbers ?


that based on 1k rounds


but is statistics,     you can do more or less, if you repeat same test  in 1k results.
is like throwing dice.     1000 times.                         sometimes you can do higher sometimes lower.    fact is that if go low, you have days where you not make money only lose it, so cant repair armor, and day where  you gain. or barely keep it, but due   to the random nature of this things. is not playable -.- so maximum sustain  based on looooong  play is 25k.     THEORICAL  37k
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Garrus on January 07, 2011, 12:20:18 am

that based on 1k rounds


but is statistics,     you can do more or less, if you repeat same test  in 1k results.
is like throwing dice.     1000 times.                         sometimes you can do higher sometimes lower.    fact is that if go low, you have days where you not make money only lose it, so cant repair armor, and day where  you gain. or barely keep it, but due   to the random nature of this things. is not playable -.- so maximum sustain  based on looooong  play is 25k.     THEORICAL  37k

considering the law of large numbers, you say that gold ammount is going down over time ? Or going up ? I understand you as up.

EDIT: there is no real place to theoriciticiticitiing. if you have calculated 37k, then it must be 37k, or ask chadz what is the recommended gear value.
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Vicious666 on January 07, 2011, 12:23:44 am
up and down. to that number

so should remain around such numbers problem is

you can have day where you have 15k, and day where you have 30

so if you use a 20-25k equip you can have day where you are not able to upkeep it until you got a lucky strike of wins





to say it more easy you cant base your gameplay on such variable up and down on an equip worth 25k
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Garrus on January 07, 2011, 12:30:10 am
up and down. to that number
so should remain around such numbers problem is
you can have day where you have 15k, and day where you have 30
so if you use a 20-25k equip you can have day where you are not able to upkeep it until you got a lucky strike of wins
to say it more easy you cant base your gameplay on such variable up and down on an equip worth 25k

when you get that 'lucky strike of wins', then you have the money for the incoming bad luck, thats the point.
I will watch for what you speaking about, and I will report here if I find anomalies, of course.
EDIT: btw, considering that 4% decay probability per item, I have no fear.
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: bruce on January 07, 2011, 12:30:40 am
I have circa 25k of equipment and I'm slowly gaining money.
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Garrus on January 07, 2011, 12:38:24 am
what do you think, if the cRPG server would roll a dice 1000 times for you in random moments, how many heads would be there ? I bet 500. I "feel" that the upkeep system is not at 50-50 earn-loose, you are earning.
(I presume that random is random in cRPG, and why would not be [as random as it can in a computer])
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Spurdospera on January 07, 2011, 12:46:32 am
Now that everyone is talking about their gear...

I have 26k worth of gear and I SLOWLY gain gold...
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: chadz on January 07, 2011, 12:49:14 am
About you not being able to change the outcome of battles - The income does NOT depend on server size, *hint* *hint*
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Vicious666 on January 07, 2011, 12:49:19 am
what do you think, if the cRPG server would roll a dice 1000 times for you in random moments, how many heads would be there ? I bet 500. I "feel" that the upkeep system is not at 50-50 earn-loose, you are earning.
(I presume that random is random in cRPG, and why would not be [as random as it can in a computer])


that why i posted the 9k equipment

if you are unlucky   you can even play with that if you play only 1-2 hours day

is a stupid system not based on any ability of the player/team,

IS FUCKING RANDOM
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Beans on January 07, 2011, 12:50:22 am
in have feeling that instead concentrate on a    fucking rotten autobalance+upkeep system you prefer troll my english.

I have no problem with people using a 2nd language not as well as their first. Your English is fine.

The way you put spaces and shit all throughout your posts make no sense in any fucking language unless your first language is Egyptian hieroglyphics or something.
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Ishar on January 07, 2011, 12:53:10 am
About you not being able to change the outcome of battles - The income does NOT depend on server size, *hint* *hint*

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

I love you man. I always loved sieges of 5-15 people, exactly because I felt what I'm doing is making a huge difference. Now, you fixed both siege AND buffed small games. I'm speechless.
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Vicious666 on January 07, 2011, 12:55:55 am
About you not being able to change the outcome of battles - The income does NOT depend on server size, *hint* *hint*

about you not being able to make an autobalance that work.         *hint* *hint*  maybe you should rewrite it

i am always on the winning side and have np make a 5:1 k/d ratio even dressed with a 20k equip,  you are missing the point IS NOT FUN ANYMORE and random based.      personal skill make no difference, you need only to do good first round than automaticly all good player are stucked on 1 side.  * hint* *hint*  i can just kill  first round than go afk for other 4,   for how much is uneven after balance
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: ThePoopy on January 07, 2011, 01:05:46 am
i havent seen eny small battles so far...

EDIT: nvm
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Garrus on January 07, 2011, 01:06:26 am
it was fun until now because you had much better equipment than the average player ? or what ?
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: cutsomecheesewithmybow on January 07, 2011, 01:10:55 am
My EQ:
Sarranid Guard Armor   8529
Helmet with Neckguard   1480
Leather Boots   363
War Axe   1940
Pike   1589
TOTAL: 13 901

I am gaining gold very fast so I figure I'll buy some board shield for my back; By .200 I was using a Nomand Armor - the gold gain was stable and good too and frankly i preferred it that way. It is a sad thing to see claymores and horses being so common again.
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Vicious666 on January 07, 2011, 01:24:21 am
I have no problem with people using a 2nd language not as well as their first. Your English is fine.

The way you put spaces and shit all throughout your posts make no sense in any fucking language unless your first language is Egyptian hieroglyphics or something.


have you ever thinked that i did that on purpose for ppl like you?
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Vicious666 on January 07, 2011, 01:29:42 am
it was fun until now because you had much better equipment than the average player ? or what ?


no becouse have sense exp the char, not the equip,        if i wanna play all at same level i play   native, why i should play crpg?   ,     i played and shitload of player here majority since poll vote for 60% +,      that we played becouse      here, invest time was worth, was the sense of the mod,     mount e blade but  "persistent"     what you do with time reflect  in part your char,        skill remained essential, becouse i recon player like you in full plate that i owned 95% of time 1 vs 1.  so why?        becouse i am more skilled.   

but now  there is no more sense on grow a char, we are all same., 200k of equip is useless,     why i should play dressed in  a chain? for play random in a system where my ability is not      receiving any bonus,      whatever i do not change anything
1x
or 5x  HAVE NO SENSE when there is a level limit, dont you get this ?           CAN BE 50X,           at best 2 months from now i will be 35 and you will be 32,   and  3 point will make no difference.

i hate depends on random stuff,    if i win and kill with a 10:/1 k/d ratio I DESERVE TO use a fucking plate,    otherwise this mod is not ability based, it not incentive good player,  punish them
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Beans on January 07, 2011, 02:40:50 am

have you ever thinked that i did that on purpose for ppl like you?

So you post in a confusing manner on purpose to annoy people.  While posting trying to get people to agree with you.

Yes, you are clearly the pupper master and we are all dancing to your tune. That, or you are just a fucking idiot?
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Babelfish on January 07, 2011, 02:50:01 am

no becouse have sense exp the char, not the equip,        if i wanna play all at same level i play   native, why i should play crpg?   ,     i played and shitload of player here majority since poll vote for 60% +,      that we played becouse      here, invest time was worth, was the sense of the mod,     mount e blade but  "persistent"     what you do with time reflect  in part your char,       skill remained essential, becouse i recon player like you in full plate that i owned 95% of time 1 vs 1.  so why?       becouse i am more skilled.   

but now  there is no more sense on grow a char, we are all same., 200k of equip is useless,     why i should play dressed in  a chain? for play random in a system where my ability is not      receiving any bonus,      whatever i do not change anything
1x
or 5x  HAVE NO SENSE when there is a level limit, dont you get this ?           CAN BE 50X,           at best 2 months from now i will be 35 and you will be 32,   and  3 point will make no difference.

i hate depends on random stuff,    if i win and kill with a 10:/1 k/d ratio I DESERVE TO use a fucking plate,    otherwise this mod is not ability based, it not incentive good player,  punish them

You are fucking hilarious and utterly retarded  :rolleyes:

 
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Varyag on January 07, 2011, 02:58:51 am
I have to say, that with my equip (which is around 25k) I still make gold. I have 50/50 lose/wins.
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Banok on January 07, 2011, 03:13:19 am
About you not being able to change the outcome of battles - The income does NOT depend on server size, *hint* *hint*

basically if you are a good player the smaller the server the better, if you are bad or a peasant join a full server cause then at least you average out :D
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: rustyspoon on January 07, 2011, 03:33:51 am
Today while using 25k worth of equipment I MADE an extra 20k. I then used that money to buy some tin can stuff that I always wanted. The OP may just be the unluckiest person on the planet, but so far I think the new system is a bit too generous.
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: AirPhforce on January 07, 2011, 03:39:47 am
Today while using 25k worth of equipment I MADE an extra 20k. I then used that money to buy some tin can stuff that I always wanted. The OP may just be the unluckiest person on the planet, but so far I think the new system is a bit too generous.

I think it's fine. If you want to be a tin can then be one. The change to retirement prevents tin-cans from having 300 WPF in 2 handers, which was the big problem.
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: rustyspoon on January 07, 2011, 03:42:42 am
I think it's fine. If you want to be a tin can then be one. The change to retirement prevents tin-cans from having 300 WPF in 2 handers, which was the big problem.

Never had any interest in being one. I just bought it 'cause I had way too much money laying around after the patch. I prefer my Heraldic Mail with Tabard for the look and speed. All I'm saying is I think you can get WAY too much money now.
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: indigocylinder on January 07, 2011, 04:26:51 am
Here's what I got.

Code: [Select]
import random

##Calculate mean multiplier, assuming even chance of win/loss
total = 0
value = 1
for i in range(1000000):
    if random.randint(0, 1) == True:
        value = min([value + 1, 5])
    else:
        value = 1
    total = total + value
mmulti = float(total)/1000000

##Calculate stable equipment value using:
##mean multiplier * base gold - chance break * repair cost * equipment = 0
equipment = (mmulti * 50) / (.04 * .05)

print mmulti, equipment

This returns:
mean multiplier ~= 1.94
stable equipment ~= 48500

In fact, actual values are probably higher than this, since if you win one round, then you have a better than 50 percent chance of winning the next.
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Ganon on January 07, 2011, 06:33:38 am
About you not being able to change the outcome of battles - The income does NOT depend on server size, *hint* *hint*

Small servers are much better and might even help going positive in gold with 40-50k worth of equipment. Cannot agree more with that. Make more small servers please (or split up one into a few smaller servers).
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Stud_Muffin on January 07, 2011, 06:35:39 am
...What?
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Ganon on January 07, 2011, 07:12:38 am
...What?

I'll translate that post for you and comment my observation:

With a 50% win ratio you have an average round bonus of 1.94 which gives a sustainable maximum equipment of 48500gold. In a small server, you can influence the outcome alot more so you could go over 50% win ratio, which means round bonus will be over 1.94, let's say you get an average of 3 (which is very high but we're talking about really good players being concerned) you can get the sustainable equipment value up to 75.000 gold. But only on small servers, with 180 players you would need to have an absurd k/d ratio to really influence the outcome enough to get the gold needed to sustain high end equipment.

The reason i like small servers with 40-60 players is because tonight we had that number playing and it was alot more fun. I'm not at the tincan point yet but still knowing that i could heavily influence the outcome made me play better and i had more fun.

So as a suggestion i'd say, give us more small servers, and everything will be fine. I also find the suggestion to base the entry on character level interesting, but i would keep it more open than that, with only a lower limit on some servers (like a 20+ server and a 25+ server).
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Quirian on January 07, 2011, 08:24:06 am
So just for the record, if I use equipment which is worth less than 50.000 I will probably be able to make money?

Heraldic Transitional       19419
Nordic Champions Sword  7842
Sugarloaf Helmet              7930
Knightly Heater Shield      4328
Gauntlets                          8534
Mailboots                          3119
which makes:                51172

I used this equipment for several rounds today (an hour or two), just to face the fact that I loose money. I started with 17 k, and with some ups and downs I ended at 15something k

Also I got some questions, are heirloomed items more expensive in upkeep?
Why do I have to pay upkeep for things I pick up on the battlefield?

If I would use a horse, I'd run out of money pretty fast. (I mean I could go naked and without a weapon with a charger or something -_-)

So is this equipment is so overpowered, that it has to be punished with a loss of money? And also I'd like to know how anyone should use a horse better than a destrier, without going almost naked? You could simply have deleted them horses if they we're so OP.

Still the patch is fun to play, but xbows are still annoying as hell (and in comparison pretty cheap). Archery is fine as it is (they really make a shitload of gold due to cheap equipment). Being an infantrymen is too expensive if you don't use very cheap items. Decent cavalry is not affordable.

Thanks for reading
Greets

Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Kiriath on January 07, 2011, 02:34:56 pm
So you post in a confusing manner on purpose to annoy people.  While posting trying to get people to agree with you.

Yes, you are clearly the pupper master and we are all dancing to your tune. That, or you are just a fucking idiot?

Let me point you in the direction of page 2 where I already came to this conclusion =D
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Kafein on January 07, 2011, 02:56:51 pm
Vicious, FFS stop randomly putting retarded shitload of spaces in your posts !

And something you should have understood ages ago :

Skill is NOT how many points you have on your char page ! It's how YOU, as a player, perform in the game, not depending on your char or your equipment !
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Razzer on January 07, 2011, 03:05:47 pm
I agree with Kafein.
Title: Re: Upkeep Test for chad with evidence, mathematic : that is not an opinion !
Post by: Ganon on January 07, 2011, 08:31:06 pm
So just for the record, if I use equipment which is worth less than 50.000 I will probably be able to make money?

Heraldic Transitional       19419
Nordic Champions Sword  7842
Sugarloaf Helmet              7930
Knightly Heater Shield      4328
Gauntlets                          8534
Mailboots                          3119
which makes:                51172

I used this equipment for several rounds today (an hour or two), just to face the fact that I loose money. I started with 17 k, and with some ups and downs I ended at 15something k

Also I got some questions, are heirloomed items more expensive in upkeep?
Why do I have to pay upkeep for things I pick up on the battlefield?

If I would use a horse, I'd run out of money pretty fast. (I mean I could go naked and without a weapon with a charger or something -_-)

So is this equipment is so overpowered, that it has to be punished with a loss of money? And also I'd like to know how anyone should use a horse better than a destrier, without going almost naked? You could simply have deleted them horses if they we're so OP.

Still the patch is fun to play, but xbows are still annoying as hell (and in comparison pretty cheap). Archery is fine as it is (they really make a shitload of gold due to cheap equipment). Being an infantrymen is too expensive if you don't use very cheap items. Decent cavalry is not affordable.

Thanks for reading
Greets

No, if you use 50k of equipment and win 50% of the time, you will be even, or to be more precise, you will slowly lose gold since you can afford 48500 max, but that's on the very long run. Last i heard heirloomed weapons are valued very high and people aren't using them because of the additional upkeep costs. If you want to make money with 50k equipment you need to win more than 50% of your rounds.