cRPG
cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: XXTNTXX on March 06, 2013, 06:25:58 pm
-
Just want to see how many people like or dislike Light Crossbow changed to 2 slots.
-
it needs to be balanced WITH archery. Crossbow requires less INVESTMENT to be viable than archery. Learn to use a bow and be a talent to your team and strat faction than some bundle of sticks with a gun.
-
it needs to be balanced WITH archery. Crossbow requires less INVESTMENT to be viable than archery. Learn to use a bow and be a talent to your team and strat faction than some bundle of sticks with a gun.
and it also requires(depnding on the xbow) 2-7 seconds of standing still. Archery requires NO stalling.
Archery:
Faster draw spead
(you CAN wear upper light/lower medium armor) but most wear light armor
Requires 6 points in PD(or so) depending on the archer
Pierce or Cut damage
Crossbow:
No point investment beyond WM
Pierce damage only
Slow reload
Can wear heavy armor if wished(Specced xbows wear medium to light armor too just like archers)
Might have missed a few, but that's the differences in the 2. (not counting other things like arrow weight, upkeep costs as those are modifiable by devs and can be argued that they are roughly the same for each class)
-
Why? There is so many 1 handed weapons that are 0 slot, surely you can live with 1xbow 2 bolts and a short sword?
-
Because, for one, the short sword sucks on horseback.
It's pretty much impossible to do a balanced hybrid build anymore.
I have 131 in crossbow, 108 in 1 handed. I think that's the investment you're talking about. Since I don't have WPF maxed in my melee weapon, I think it's quite reasonable to say that's the trade off in order to be able to use the light crossbow and a decent 1 hander.
Release_Arrows
-
There should be a way to use a decent crossbow with pole-arm/2hander. Weapons like the double-sided lance / regular spear / hafted blade / bastard sword could at least be made 1 slot to coincide with the added 0 slot 1handers.
-
Arbalest should be 3 slot.
-
Arbalest should be 3 slot.
Nope, that would absolutly fuck my build, so i would have to respec again.
-
I know it'll be harsh, that's why they should give free looms and respec to everyone soon.
As to my point, arbalest is the best crossbow. Are there any point to use other crossbows at the moment? All of them are 2 slot. If one wants to be xbow+decent infantry, they should use something like the heavy crossbow. Arbalestiers should have the best ranged capabilities, at the cost of using 0 slot onehanders with no shields maybe? Not really sure though, was just trolling :P
I don't want to fuck anyone's fun, but is the current xbow setup balanced now?
-
Arbalests take approxamitly 6 years to reload, and have the slight delay on some of the shots. That is pretty much the only difference between xbows and arbs.
-
There should be a way to use a decent crossbow with pole-arm/2hander. Weapons like the double-sided lance / regular spear / hafted blade / bastard sword could at least be made 1 slot to coincide with the added 0 slot 1handers.
Ok, i agree with the bastard swords but i dont think xbows should have the ability to be both effective in melee as in ranged because that is the main issue with xbows. Its a cheap range investement and ur still powerfull in melee. No thanks but that is not balanced. Refer to DaveUKR's playing style.
I think some basic axes and maces should be made 0 slot as well because imo the melee for ranged should be personal defense weapon and not effective as a dedicated melee role. Then a xbow, stack of bolts, shield and 0 slot weapon is still viable. Good on range and good for own defence, but not the stormtrooper kind of crossbow man anymore.
Because, for one, the short sword sucks on horseback.
It's pretty much impossible to do a balanced hybrid build anymore.
I have 131 in crossbow, 108 in 1 handed. I think that's the investment you're talking about. Since I don't have WPF maxed in my melee weapon, I think it's quite reasonable to say that's the trade off in order to be able to use the light crossbow and a decent 1 hander.
Release_Arrows
Imo horse xbow should be removed from game anyway.
-
Ok, i agree with the bastard swords but i dont think xbows should have the ability to be both effective in melee as in ranged because that is the main issue with xbows. Its a cheap range investement and ur still powerfull in melee. No thanks but that is not balanced. Refer to DaveUKR's playing style.
I think some basic axes and maces should be made 0 slot as well because imo the melee for ranged should be personal defense weapon and not effective as a dedicated melee role. Then a xbow, stack of bolts, shield and 0 slot weapon is still viable. Good on range and good for own defence, but not the stormtrooper kind of crossbow man anymore.
Imo horse xbow should be removed from game anyway.
Why not? An archer or thrower can be good in melee as well as in their respective ranged class.(even full hybrids of both). Why not xbow? cause it's Pierce and you are a homo 2h with high armor? Cause you could hybrid it and be decent?
It's not the class that makes these good, it's the players. A shit hybrid 2h/xbow is bad regardless of which weapon they use.
Also -1 for removal of a class.
-
I know it'll be harsh, that's why they should give free looms and respec to everyone soon.
As to my point, arbalest is the best crossbow. Are there any point to use other crossbows at the moment? All of them are 2 slot. If one wants to be xbow+decent infantry, they should use something like the heavy crossbow. Arbalestiers should have the best ranged capabilities, at the cost of using 0 slot onehanders with no shields maybe? Not really sure though, was just trolling :P
I don't want to fuck anyone's fun, but is the current xbow setup balanced now?
A lot of dedicated crossbowmen have been using the heavy crossbow over the arbalest for a while now. I personally like the arbalest when I am playing as crossbowman, but there have been times when I wish I was using the heavy crossbow instead. Now think about the arablest becomming 3 slot. Lets compare it to the heavy crossbow then.
11higher damage
4 higher missile speed
1 higher accuracy
3 slot
27 less speed
3 higher difficulty
361 higher upkeep
0.3 higher weight
Not really fair is it?
I would be up for making the arbalest 3 slot though, but it would have to get quite a large buff if that were to happen. Something like 10-15 more damage or 5-10 more damage + extra missile speed.
-
Its bull really . I have invested 3 loom points in my Lxbow, 2 in steel bolts, 3 in my 2h axe and 3 in armour. As it is now I have wasted 5 loom points. I wont be playing again until the slots are reversedack to 1.
-
A lot of dedicated crossbowmen have been using the heavy crossbow over the arbalest for a while now. I personally like the arbalest when I am playing as crossbowman, but there have been times when I wish I was using the heavy crossbow instead. Now think about the arablest becomming 3 slot. Lets compare it to the heavy crossbow then.
11higher damage
4 higher missile speed
1 higher accuracy
3 slot
27 less speed
3 higher difficulty
361 higher upkeep
0.3 higher weight
Not really fair is it?
I would be up for making the arbalest 3 slot though, but it would have to get quite a large buff if that were to happen. Something like 10-15 more damage or 5-10 more damage + extra missile speed.
Alright you got a good point there.
-
Make it unable to reload on horseback. $$$
Then make it 0 slot for all i care.
-
Something most people forget, xbows tend to lose significant damage when raining, as well as shooting at length. Anything beyond mid range and the xbow will hit you like a wet noodle especially if raining.
-
Something most people forget, xbows tend to lose significant damage when raining, as well as shooting at length. Anything beyond mid range and the xbow will hit you like a wet noodle especially if raining.
Another thing most people forget, if you have horse, your slots should be at least doubled, as 8 not 4. But of course, it should take a little longer time when you take weapons from horse.
Crossbow is powerful, because in reality it is powerful. Same thing for horse. But most people in game want some kind of balance to remove the powerful things, not reality.
On the other hand, the upkeep system already gave the balance. But it seems that lots of people forget the upkeep system and only look at which is too powerful. When you get hit by powerful things, don’t forget that they have to pay more upkeep on that. For example, this time changing light crossbow to 2 slots just destroyed the build of sword-shield horse crossbowman. But do people know, for a reasonable sword-shield horse crossbowman, it needs at least 4000 gold for upkeep. As this amount of upkeep, it is generally not possible to earn gold, but only to lose gold. I cannot understand why to nerf light crossbow for horse crossbowman, as upkeep already gave the balance.
-
I cannot understand why to nerf light crossbow for horse crossbowman, as upkeep already gave the balance.
Probably to force them to bring a melee weapon (Forcing your main weapon to be two slots means you now can bring a zero slot melee), which is the main motivator for archer tweaks (Force them to fight in melee).
-
Still I think the solution is really bad. After upkeep killed heavy cavalry/plated infantry, and alle the nerfs made it much more difficult to have a viable archer-melee hybrid, now the classical crossbow-shieldman with board shield and decent melee weapon is gone for good.
I would even prefer adding some kind of "spanning skill" (not more ridiculous than some other skills) which can be raised let's say up to a value of 6 or the like. So who likes to hybridize can do so, but for a real price, other than money (=upkeep), which is basically available in an umlimited extend, at least for some veteran players. Slots are only a bad system to support the not working ukeep system.
-
Why not? An archer or thrower can be good in melee as well as in their respective ranged class.(even full hybrids of both). Why not xbow? cause it's Pierce and you are a homo 2h with high armor? Cause you could hybrid it and be decent?
It's not the class that makes these good, it's the players. A shit hybrid 2h/xbow is bad regardless of which weapon they use.
Also -1 for removal of a class.
Average 2h hero build 18/21 or 21/18 and you are set.
Allocate some of the wpf points (at best with an agi build) to the crossbow and you are set. Effective both in melee and in crossbow. Why should you make a pure 2h then? If you can have the ultimate build which is the crossbow 2h (mace) hybrid.
Hybrids should be more viable, yes, but then it must be in all aspects and not only for the crossbow, because this is the best hybrid, actually it shouldn't even be called a hybrid because is there such a thing as dedicated crossbow? in a way that resembles a dedicated archer? No, because the investment is cheap.
Dont get me wrong ive played as a crossbowman with kettle helmet and mail, shield and 1h weapon and it was fun, and i do think this must be viable hybrid, but obviously the melee effectiveness of it compared to a dedicated shielder should be less, doesnt mean he is going to loose in a fight, but he must make a trade off, like not being able to select shielder specialist equipment, some higher tier shields or weapons etc.
-
Still I think the solution is really bad. After upkeep killed heavy cavalry/plated infantry, and alle the nerfs made it much more difficult to have a viable archer-melee hybrid, now the classical crossbow-shieldman with board shield and decent melee weapon is gone for good.
Upkeep didn't kill plated infantry on NA, changing the soak damage did.
-
Hybrids should be more viable, yes, but then it must be in all aspects and not only for the crossbow, because this is the best hybrid, actually it shouldn't even be called a hybrid because is there such a thing as dedicated crossbow? in a way that resembles a dedicated archer? No, because the investment is cheap.
That is a valid reflection on the fact that medieval archers needed significantly more training.
Sure, archers get the better 1slot weapon to compensate, but only a hunting crossbow? Sure, 1slot weapons should be somewhat weaker, but only a quarterstaff/shortened spear? One solution would be to allow them to use decent, but not awesome, weapons in both categories by making them 1.5 slot for instance.
-
Changing crossbow to 2 slots... fine whatever.
Light crossbow though? This seems like an over-zealous change.
-
now the classical crossbow-shieldman with board shield and decent melee weapon is gone for good.
Broad short sword at +3 has 31 pierce, 33 cut, 102 speed, 0 slot, 86 length, and is more than decent 1h sword. Crossbow or even arbalest + bolts + 1 slot shield + broad short sword = "classical crossbow-shieldman". Your argument is invalid.
-
Board short sword at +3 has 31 pierce, 33 cut, 102 speed, 0 slot, 86 length, and is more than decent 1h sword. Crossbow or even arbalest + 1 slot shield + board short shield = "classical crossbow-shieldman". Your argument is invalid.
Despite that I don't even get totally what you wrote there (it's kind of really messy), you don't list up bolts, do you? They are another slot. So even if you take a 0 slot 1hd weapon, you are limited to a crappy 1 slot shield, which is not really a "viable" melee build, rather something to better survive melee emergency cases, not more.
Ah you edited it. Better understandable, much better.
But still, argumenting in using a +3 weapon (even I don't own any!) or going half of your time (hybrid) into melee with a 1 slot shield isn't a viable counter argument for me. It would be a bad build. And the cutting damage would have its troubles if you are not really strong with a lot of PS and WPF, like a dedicated melee build. I'd prefer going blunt or pierce.
-
Heh, should be better now :wink:
you are limited to a crappy 1 slot shield
:lol:
-
Heh, should be better now :wink:
:lol:
Please allow me to consider them noticeable inferior to two slot shields.
-
Joker you're talking about hybrids. Hybrids should not be able to get the best melee weapon, the best shield and the best crossbows in my opinion. 1 slot shields are not crappy though. Shields are just shields. You only block with them. Not much all that fancy and gamebreaking stuff.
-
argumenting in using a +3 weapon (even I don't own any!) or going half of your time (hybrid) into melee with a 1 slot shield isn't a viable counter argument for me. It would be a bad build. And the cutting damage would have its troubles if you are not really strong with a lot of PS and WPF, like a dedicated melee build. I'd prefer going blunt or pierce.
Most of 1h sword get +2 pierce dmg at +3, but broad short sword gets +3, that's what I wanted to point out. And I can not agree that 1 slot shields are inferior to 2 slots shields. Before the patch elite cav shield was most expensive shield.
-
Before the patch elite cav shield was most expensive shield.
Are you talking about 1 slot shields? I'm sure the most expensive shield is steel shield.
It's pretty misleading not to take loomed items into account, considering more than half of the players have mw stuff by the way. Didn't know the info of +3 mw broad short sword. That weapon looks just powerful to my eyes now.
-
Please allow me to consider them noticeable inferior to two slot shields.
Ranged don't get shields. Your ranged weapon is your shield. Learn to use it as such. Someone shooting at you? Shoot them back. Horse charging you? Shoot it down. Melee too close to shoot? Well that's your fault you didn't shoot them before they got that close, and also, learn to block :P
-
I guess 1h and 2h with 2 slot xbow is still viable just got nerfed in ability to use heavier weps.
1h will have to use 0 slot short sword and 2h can't use a longsword or greatswords, gotta use 2h mace, langes messer, fighting axe or fighting pick. Polearms gotta use a quarter staff lol.
-
you are limited to a crappy 1 slot shield, which is not really a "viable" melee build
Just wanted to point out that before the changes, you were still limited to a crappy 1h shield unless you were using one of the crappy 0slot 1h's.
-
Broad short sword at +3 has 31 pierce, 33 cut, 102 speed, 0 slot, 86 length, and is more than decent 1h sword. Crossbow or even arbalest + bolts + 1 slot shield + broad short sword = "classical crossbow-shieldman". Your argument is invalid.
I tried broad short sword now for several days as xbow cav and im forced to use a hunting crossbow because broad short sword is useless on horseback. Just too short. :?
-
Probably to force them to bring a melee weapon (Forcing your main weapon to be two slots means you now can bring a zero slot melee), which is the main motivator for archer tweaks (Force them to fight in melee).
I used Nomad Sabre pre-patch, post-patch I use a short falchion. Shit sucks man! The US Cavalry carried sabres! :(
Broad short sword at +3 has 31 pierce, 33 cut, 102 speed, 0 slot, 86 length, and is more than decent 1h sword. Crossbow or even arbalest + bolts + 1 slot shield + broad short sword = "classical crossbow-shieldman". Your argument is invalid.
I tend to think picks and hammers with them crossbowmen, and there's no 0 slots of those (don't count the pickaxe)
-
Do you think it will be 1 slot again? Otherwise i sell my mw light xbow..
-
I tried broad short sword now for several days as xbow cav and im forced to use a hunting crossbow because broad short sword is useless on horseback. Just too short. :?
I even got kills with steel pick on horse. Broad short sword is a LOT longer than steel pick. Just practice for a while.
-
I hate crossbows as weapons. I hate crossbowmen. Yet i find it silly to see "light" in a weapon name that uses 2 slots. While i dislike the class and weapon totally i must agree that light xbow (even xbow) should be 1 slot items.
-
it was a weapon used for the 7/30 troll shotgun build. why should people cry about that? it was easy enough to kill me when i had two xbows. now i have a useless lvl 30 thats not even fun anymore. should i just take hunting xbows?
I quote rogue: "hunting xbows are good for one thing: dropping it for the enemy when you run away so he picks it up an tries to kill you with it". You can shoot a naked archer with it in the head and he doesnt die. you shoot him again and the archer is still standing". why does such fun build that gave me hours of pleasure have to be nerfed? is it so bad that people want to shoot a bit with a xbow while standing on a wall? im more usefull going outside the wall than shooting from it with a 0 wpf light xbow, even if i use my fists
-
Please allow me to consider them noticeable inferior to two slot shields.
I disagree, I think the knightly heater shield is the best shield in the game (considering it's only 1 slot, 100 speed, has a very high armor rating and only requires 4 difficulty). Sure the 2 slot shields can take more axe hits, but they weigh more and are 2 slots...
Your argument here is invalid, a crossbow user should only be using a 1 slot shield anyways, even when it was only 1 slot for crossbows and below.
Now those same builds can either choose to use their 1 slot sword and a 0 slot shield (or no shield), or can take a 0 slot sword and a 1 slot shield. Seems fine to me. I can no longer use a 2 slot 2h sword on my xbow character, so I just use a mace. Seems very well balanced to me...
it was a weapon used for the 7/30 troll shotgun build. why should people cry about that? it was easy enough to kill me when i had two xbows. now i have a useless lvl 30 thats not even fun anymore. should i just take hunting xbows?
I quote rogue: "hunting xbows are good for one thing: dropping it for the enemy when you run away so he picks it up an tries to kill you with it". You can shoot a naked archer with it in the head and he doesnt die. you shoot him again and the archer is still standing". why does such fun build that gave me hours of pleasure have to be nerfed? is it so bad that people want to shoot a bit with a xbow while standing on a wall? im more usefull going outside the wall than shooting from it with a 0 wpf light xbow, even if i use my fists
So what's your build? So instead of using a 1h with 1 slot and a shield with 1 slot, you need to take a 0 slot 1h? If you're a 2h/xbow (like me) you can no longer take a sword, you need the mace or one of the "bastard" 1h/2h weapons (like fighting axe or military sickle), polearm users got fucked over decently, but the Q Staff is actually a good 1 slot weapon.
I don't see the problem, I think this is a very good balance move.