cRPG
cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lt_Anders on March 06, 2013, 04:25:37 am
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I've heard that the Spation is getting 1 slot and the Paramarion is broke. Why not increase the max cap on 1h damage by 2 or 3?(the maxiumum damage allowed by any 1h ever, which is currently 37 with the iron war axe). If you allow a 2 point change in damage, you can modifiy all 1h up or down by 1 damage allowing MORE diversity and LESS redundancy and LESS USELESS 1h!
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Go for it. The reason 1handers are less powerful than everything else is probably "realism" as they are shorter and all.. but in terms of balance... they get shitty stabs, shitty overheads, shitty damage and shitty to OK reach... they also arent really as good at spamming at 2h or polearm despite their speed. The plus side? you CAN take a shield and they are 1 slot. Maybe make some 2 slots 1handers that can compete with other weapon categories? would it buff shielders if there were 1handers that didnt suck? sure it would, but so what? You don't see many good players crying about shielders.
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Speaking in general military mechanics, a spear always beats a sword.
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Speaking in general military mechanics, a spear always beats a sword.
In other words, we already severely lack realism, so why not let 1Handers join in the fun?
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Speaking in general military mechanics, a spear always beats a sword.
Speaking in general military tactics swordsman always beat spearman.
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There's only the thrusts that sucks on 1h, as for the rest they do enough damage as it is
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Honestly I think most weapon could stand to do more damage. Face to face confrontations take far too long in battle. It would be nice to have most individual fights resolved in around 15 seconds.
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Honestly I think most weapon could stand to do more damage. Face to face confrontations take far too long in battle. It would be nice to have most individual fights resolved in around 15 seconds.
Uhmm Lorden one hit me yesterday with a body shot from a nodachi, don't think 2h needs more damage.
(I was lvl 28 5 IF Nordic conical, mail splinted greaves, and heraldic mail.)
The 1h glance rate is ridiculous and while 2h can "lol stab" all we can do is make the opponent lol when we stab.
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Even in heavy armour with 24str and 5 IF there are guys with 1h weapons that have killed me in a few hits, seems fine to me, especially considering they can facehug with the annoying quick short swings and block so easily.
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Even in heavy armour with 24str and 5 IF there are guys with 1h weapons that have killed me in a few hits, seems fine to me, especially considering they can facehug with the annoying quick short swings and block so easily.
Having tried both very extensively, I find it usually easier to block without a shield, due to it being instant. This is not true of course against groups of good players or very fast feinters, but certainly worth the huge movement speed improvement of dropping the shield. Also, anybody can facehug and pole/2h hit much faster when they do it thanks to hiltslashing.
Needing more than 6 hits to kill normal people is not tolerable if you want to do reasonably good. Most 1h now, especially in siege, give up everything to get more damage. See how very few cut weapon users have less than 33c and nearly a majority of all 1h now uses blunt or pierce ? Or, they switch to 2h or pole and enjoy +10 damage.
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Having tried both very extensively, I find it usually easier to block without a shield, due to it being instant. This is not true of course against groups of good players or very fast feinters, but certainly worth the huge movement speed improvement of dropping the shield. Also, anybody can facehug and pole/2h hit much faster when they do it thanks to hiltslashing.
Needing more than 6 hits to kill normal people is not tolerable if you want to do reasonably good. Most 1h now, especially in siege, give up everything to get more damage. See how very few cut weapon users have less than 33c and nearly a majority of all 1h now uses blunt or pierce ? Or, they switch to 2h or pole and enjoy +10 damage.
Hiltslash with polearm? maybe sometimes against light armoured opponents and with certain polearms but on many occasions my polearms glance if too close, that combined with the fact it also bounces off of team mates behind me and any kind of scenery around me when I am trying to fight, it's safe to say polearms has its clear advantages and disadvantages as 1h does.
The shield is a massive advantage of the 1h weapon, without it the user chooses to sacrifice that advantage and go for more speed, that's the users own choice and 1h weapons should NOT be doing the same damage as 2h and polearm. A shield is not just a melee tool it has a magnetic radius ( yes it still does albeit not as large as before, unless you have low shield skill of course ) that blocks all ranged attacks, right now in crpg that is a massive advantage considering the huge amount of ranged spam going on.
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Hiltslashing with pole/2h and 1h double leftswings aren't that different at all. I think 1h is in fine place balance wise, the shield is not a minor advantage. Damage output is not that bad, even though everyone is always whining about 1h cut damage, I still see swords almost exclusively on EU_1. L2pierce/blunt.
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It would be nice to have most individual fights resolved in around 15 seconds.
Think half of the mod would have to be changed for this to work
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Hiltslashing with pole/2h and 1h double leftswings aren't that different at all. I think 1h is in fine place balance wise, the shield is not a minor advantage. Damage output is not that bad, even though everyone is always whining about 1h cut damage, I still see swords almost exclusively on EU_1. L2pierce/blunt.
Try ducking bellow a 2h/pole hiltslash. Also, regarding the damage output, stop bullshitting, when you were 1h it often took you 5+ hits to kill me back when I used a noneagistackerwithnoarmor build, a 2h, and unloomed scale with mail gauntlets and a guard helmet.
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I disagree with you Matey. If i didnt know any better id say you just gave some oppinions to make your 1h chars OP. As a 1h player I can say that 1h is totally a competitive class in crpg. It is slightly tougher to learn and slightly UP. But not that much that it deserves massive bitching over.
Ive taken on some of the best 2h/polearm fighters 1vs1 and group and most of the times when I lost(which is alot btw) :D is cause of the fact im simply a crappier player, not cause of the disadvantages of 1h. Dont buff 1h any further, its currenty as good as its gonna get. Slight buff more and everybody will be 1h. Cause the ableness to use shield during fighting when you really need it is a pretty damn big advantage.
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1handed swords are great for killing archers or other light shielders. Decent PS or high WPF and you can competitively fight in main blobs with swords. High STR builds do rather well with most swords, and high AGI builds are usually more effective with warhammer/pick.
Honestly think things should be tweaked so lower end cut does slightly more damage against medium armor while blunt/pierce does slightly less, with everything doing the same damage against super light armor as it is, and cut being worse against heavy.
1hand swords need some drawbacks after all, they are long and fast and pretty deadly in that regard.
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Try ducking bellow a 2h/pole hiltslash. Also, regarding the damage output, stop bullshitting, when you were 1h it often took you 5+ hits to kill me back when I used a noneagistackerwithnoarmor build, a 2h, and unloomed scale with mail gauntlets and a guard helmet.
Nobody ducks swings, nobody. Well, I also 2 shot people in medium-heavy gear, and whenever I duelled someone who was in my ts he would whine about my damage.
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Nobody ducks swings, nobody. Well, I also 2 shot people in medium-heavy gear, and whenever I duelled someone who was in my ts he would whine about my damage.
I can do it when fighting 1h leftswing spammers, it's much harder to do with a 1h than a 2h (not sure about pole) though due to the way the animation works, so I don't do it much in c-rpg. Also, I've onehit a guy in medium armor with my espada and its stab once while jumping forward and aiming for the head, and I've oneshot plated loomed 39/3 people with a longsword and 10ps while barely moving and hitting their body.
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FYI this isn't about 1h themselves but about allowing 1h more room to change their stats internally so you can better balance 1h. Because the Paramarion is super powerful, but if 1h had a higher cap, you could make the shorter, more expensive 1h have more damage so that these weapons are BALANCED INTERNALLY.
This isn't about increasing 1h damage on all weapons, but about increasing the max allowed damage a 1h can use. The current max is 37 and the item balance team won't go over that. If they did, you could re balance all 1h weapons so that no weapons have the same stats or are redundant. My example is the spathion. It's literally a Knightly Arming, but 0 slots, and they are going to remove the 0 slot to make it 1 slot. If they do do that, then they need to make it competitive with the knightly, not a more expensive variant.
If they had a higher cap, they could make the Spation 1 damage more so that for that extra 1k you get a just slightly stronger weapon. There's other weapons you can use, but has no one realized that 1h swords max their damage at 33-35(unless loomed)? It's cause Item Balancers won't let them go higher, so you get tons of useless 1h.
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Hiltslash with polearm? maybe sometimes against light armoured opponents and with certain polearms but on many occasions my polearms glance if too close, that combined with the fact it also bounces off of team mates behind me and any kind of scenery around me when I am trying to fight, it's safe to say polearms has its clear advantages and disadvantages as 1h does.
Higher damage and length means polearms can hit without bouncing at the very start of the animation, especially when your target is closer than the tip of your weapon, making polearms used like this effectively faster than 1h. Add to that the pretty awesome stabs, that have an even shorter animation before becoming active. I admit polearms can be awkward with lots of walls and teammates, though (but you can harm enemies with backswings too). Last night I looted Bars's GLB and hit him with it without bouncing even though I started my swing with the weapon model inside his corpse. This doesn't make any sense, and he does that all the time himself.
The shield is a massive advantage of the 1h weapon, without it the user chooses to sacrifice that advantage and go for more speed, that's the users own choice and 1h weapons should NOT be doing the same damage as 2h and polearm. A shield is not just a melee tool it has a magnetic radius ( yes it still does albeit not as large as before, unless you have low shield skill of course ) that blocks all ranged attacks, right now in crpg that is a massive advantage considering the huge amount of ranged spam going on.
You get a shield in exchange for less damage, less length, less movement speed, more time before you can hit, less forgiving animations, blockstun (if your shield is light) and delayed block releases.
The shield gives you omnidirectional blocking but removes blocking physics, that is, you can't block people behind you even if their swing collides with your shield before you it also protects your front from projectiles but only when you keep it up which decreases your movement speed by 47% and also forbids you from sprinting. You shield can break (very quickly against axes) and you can also be shot through it by powerful crossbows.
Now, this was fine and all when Warband was a new game and nobody could manual block properly. Omnidirectional one-button blocking was quite an argument back then. Now most people can block just fine and those that don't stack strength and wear armor.
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This isn't about increasing 1h damage on all weapons, but about increasing the max allowed damage a 1h can use. The current max is 37 and the item balance team won't go over that.
This is just random speculation. There is no damage cap, the current values are what the balance team deems adequate.
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This is just random speculation. There is no damage cap, the current values are what the balance team deems adequate.
Notice how I said Item Balance team doesn't want to go over that?
I know that it's a value THEY deem, but why don't they want to increase that value, it would help a lot in balancing internally. Perhaps I should have worded it better, but the point is: Item Balancers should look at a slightly higher upper value and rebalance weapons like that so that you get less redundancy in 1h.
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Notice how I said Item Balance team doesn't want to go over that?
I know that it's a value THEY deem, but why don't they want to increase that value, it would help a lot in balancing internally. Perhaps I should have worded it better, but the point is: Item Balancers should look at a slightly higher upper value and rebalance weapons like that so that you get less redundancy in 1h.
making one handers do more damage doesn't balance them internally, it unbalances them against other classes.
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making one handers do more damage doesn't balance them internally, it unbalances them against other classes.
and having a Paramarion OP, a Spathion the same as a Knightly, other weapons with same stats that are useless?
If you increase/decrease these stats by like 1 damage or so, you can make things balanced internally. Look at 2h, short fast but "decent" damage versus long, slow and high damage.
Why can't they do that for 1h, the long weapons are slow but have more damage and the short weapons are fast but decent
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and having a Paramarion OP, a Spathion the same as a Knightly, other weapons with same stats that are useless?
If you increase/decrease these stats by like 1 damage or so, you can make things balanced internally. Look at 2h, short fast but "decent" damage versus long, slow and high damage.
Why can't they do that for 1h, the long weapons are slow but have more damage and the short weapons are fast but decent
Because if the one handers have less then 30 cut they are useless, and if they have too much damage they are too good?
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Higher damage and length means polearms can hit without bouncing at the very start of the animation, especially when your target is closer than the tip of your weapon, making polearms used like this effectively faster than 1h. Add to that the pretty awesome stabs, that have an even shorter animation before becoming active. I admit polearms can be awkward with lots of walls and teammates, though (but you can harm enemies with backswings too). Last night I looted Bars's GLB and hit him with it without bouncing even though I started my swing with the weapon model inside his corpse. This doesn't make any sense, and he does that all the time himself.
You get a shield in exchange for less damage, less length, less movement speed, more time before you can hit, less forgiving animations, blockstun (if your shield is light) and delayed block releases.
The shield gives you omnidirectional blocking but removes blocking physics, that is, you can't block people behind you even if their swing collides with your shield before you it also protects your front from projectiles but only when you keep it up which decreases your movement speed by 47% and also forbids you from sprinting. You shield can break (very quickly against axes) and you can also be shot through it by powerful crossbows.
Now, this was fine and all when Warband was a new game and nobody could manual block properly. Omnidirectional one-button blocking was quite an argument back then. Now most people can block just fine and those that don't stack strength and wear armor.
This is actually not true. It might take a huscarl or equivalent shield and the right angle, but it can most certainly be done.
Honetly though, with the amount of ranged and hoplites currently, you do seem to be downplaying the worth of shields and the ability to make full use of your weapon while using a shield.
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I think 1h cut damage is mostly OK on medium armor targets, but the soak/mitigation formulas are totally broken above like 60 armor. 1h swords do pitiful damage against these targets, but 2h/pole weapons weapons with high cut (45+) still penetrate armor just fine. If cut is meant to be awful on plate, make it consistently so. A str 2h with a +3 Claymore will still 3-4 shot a guy in plate, just like a bar bace user would. Meanwhile a 1h sword takes 10+ hits. The other day, Formless and I were beating on the Lorden in loomed Black armor with like 100 HP. Formless had 36 cut, I had 38 cut (both on the high end of 1h), and both 6PS. I think we had to hit him a total of over 12 times. Oh, and Lorden consistently 1-shots either of us.
I'd rather they fix the 1h animations (thrust is total crap in a million ways, and right swing glances during the first 40% of the animation) than increase the base cut damage. 1h is boring and predictable with only one reliable attack direction (overhead is probably OK on EU1, with the turn speed changes, but we don't get that on NA).
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Also, why do weapons have to have integer values for base damage? Would remove some redundancy to allow float values for damage.
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This is just random speculation. There is no damage cap, the current values are what the balance team deems adequate.
Why not just increase all melee damage by 5+ (might need different values for pierce and blunt and keeping the current damage of 2h stabs who certainly shouldn't be increased) for all weaponry? It'd allow for internally balancing 1h along with increasing general lethality which would be a great improvement to the mods current state.
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Why not just increase all melee damage by 5+ (might need different values for pierce and blunt and keeping the current damage of 2h stabs who certainly shouldn't be increased) for all weaponry? It'd allow for internally balancing 1h along with increasing general lethality which would be a great improvement to the mods current state.
5 additional damage on a 30c weapon isn't equivalent to 5 additional cut on a 45c weapon. This would be a lot of work when you could just rescale armor values to a better effect, and spend less time doing so.
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This is actually not true. It might take a huscarl or equivalent shield and the right angle, but it can most certainly be done.
Well, with round shields partially yes, but not with the others.
Honetly though, with the amount of ranged and hoplites currently, you do seem to be downplaying the worth of shields and the ability to make full use of your weapon while using a shield.
A shield is very valuable when passively defending against ranged or pushing on walls from a ladder, I am not questioning that. But honestly, I think we give them too much credit in group fights and other situations in which you need both defense and offense rather than just defense. Superior mobility, damage, range and survivability seem just as good. Some players might be more effective as a shielder or as a 2h/pole in the very same situation due to playstyle differences.
Also, why do weapons have to have integer values for base damage? Would remove some redundancy to allow float values for damage.
Because Taleworlds "float" (which are actually fixed point decimals afaik) shenanigans.
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Just leave 1h alone please. They are just fine as they are. Probably the most balanced weapon group in the whole mod.
Hands off, I say!