Would Increasing the Damage Cap on 1h help balance 1h better?

[Smoothrich]

1handed swords are great for killing archers or other light shielders.  Decent PS or high WPF and you can competitively fight in main blobs with swords.  High STR builds do rather well with most swords, and high AGI builds are usually more effective with warhammer/pick.

Honestly think things should be tweaked so lower end cut does slightly more damage against medium armor while blunt/pierce does slightly less, with everything doing the same damage against super light armor as it is, and cut being worse against heavy.

1hand swords need some drawbacks after all, they are long and fast and pretty deadly in that regard.

[Teeth]

Try ducking bellow a 2h/pole hiltslash. Also, regarding the damage output, stop bullshitting, when you were 1h it often took you 5+ hits to kill me back when I used a noneagistackerwithnoarmor build, a 2h, and unloomed scale with mail gauntlets and a guard helmet.

Nobody ducks swings, nobody. Well, I also 2 shot people in medium-heavy gear, and whenever I duelled someone who was in my ts he would whine about my damage.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

Nobody ducks swings, nobody. Well, I also 2 shot people in medium-heavy gear, and whenever I duelled someone who was in my ts he would whine about my damage.

I can do it when fighting 1h leftswing spammers, it's much harder to do with a 1h than a 2h (not sure about pole) though due to the way the animation works, so I don't do it much in c-rpg. Also, I've onehit a guy in medium armor with my espada and its stab once while jumping forward and aiming for the head, and I've oneshot plated loomed 39/3 people with a longsword and 10ps while barely moving and hitting their body.

[Lt_Anders]

FYI this isn't about 1h themselves but about allowing 1h more room to change their stats internally so you can better balance 1h. Because the Paramarion is super powerful, but if 1h had a higher cap, you could make the shorter, more expensive 1h have more damage so that these weapons are BALANCED INTERNALLY.

This isn't about increasing 1h damage on all weapons, but about increasing the max allowed damage a 1h can use. The current max is 37 and the item balance team won't go over that. If they did, you could re balance all 1h weapons so that no weapons have the same stats or are redundant. My example is the spathion. It's literally a Knightly Arming, but 0 slots, and they are going to remove the 0 slot to make it 1 slot. If they do do that, then they need to make it competitive with the knightly, not a more expensive variant.

If they had a higher cap, they could make the Spation 1 damage more so that for that extra 1k you get a just slightly stronger weapon. There's other weapons you can use, but has no one realized that 1h swords max their damage at 33-35(unless loomed)? It's cause Item Balancers won't let them go higher, so you get tons of useless 1h.

[Kafein]

Hiltslash with polearm? maybe sometimes against light armoured opponents and with certain polearms but on many occasions my polearms glance if too close, that combined with the fact it also bounces off of team mates behind me and any kind of scenery around me when I am trying to fight, it's safe to say polearms has its clear advantages and disadvantages as 1h does.

Higher damage and length means polearms can hit without bouncing at the very start of the animation, especially when your target is closer than the tip of your weapon, making polearms used like this effectively faster than 1h. Add to that the pretty awesome stabs, that have an even shorter animation before becoming active. I admit polearms can be awkward with lots of walls and teammates, though (but you can harm enemies with backswings too). Last night I looted Bars's GLB and hit him with it without bouncing even though I started my swing with the weapon model inside his corpse. This doesn't make any sense, and he does that all the time himself.

The shield is a massive advantage of the 1h weapon, without it the user chooses to sacrifice that advantage and go for more speed, that's the users own choice and 1h weapons should NOT be doing the same damage as 2h and polearm. A shield is not just a melee tool it has a magnetic radius ( yes it still does albeit not as large as before, unless you have low shield skill of course ) that blocks all ranged attacks, right now in crpg that is a massive advantage considering the huge amount of ranged spam going on.

You get a shield in exchange for less damage, less length, less movement speed, more time before you can hit, less forgiving animations, blockstun (if your shield is light) and delayed block releases.

The shield gives you omnidirectional blocking but removes blocking physics, that is, you can't block people behind you even if their swing collides with your shield before you it also protects your front from projectiles but only when you keep it up which decreases your movement speed by 47% and also forbids you from sprinting. You shield can break (very quickly against axes) and you can also be shot through it by powerful crossbows.


Now, this was fine and all when Warband was a new game and nobody could manual block properly. Omnidirectional one-button blocking was quite an argument back then. Now most people can block just fine and those that don't stack strength and wear armor.

[cmp]

This isn't about increasing 1h damage on all weapons, but about increasing the max allowed damage a 1h can use. The current max is 37 and the item balance team won't go over that.

This is just random speculation. There is no damage cap, the current values are what the balance team deems adequate.

[Lt_Anders]

This is just random speculation. There is no damage cap, the current values are what the balance team deems adequate.

Notice how I said Item Balance team doesn't want to go over that?
I know that it's a value THEY deem, but why don't they want to increase that value, it would help a lot in balancing internally. Perhaps I should have worded it better, but the point is: Item Balancers should look at a slightly higher upper value and rebalance weapons like that so that you get less redundancy in 1h.

[oprah_winfrey]

Notice how I said Item Balance team doesn't want to go over that?
I know that it's a value THEY deem, but why don't they want to increase that value, it would help a lot in balancing internally. Perhaps I should have worded it better, but the point is: Item Balancers should look at a slightly higher upper value and rebalance weapons like that so that you get less redundancy in 1h.

making one handers do more damage doesn't balance them internally, it unbalances them against other classes.

[Lt_Anders]

making one handers do more damage doesn't balance them internally, it unbalances them against other classes.

and having a Paramarion OP, a Spathion the same as a Knightly, other weapons with same stats that are useless?

If you increase/decrease these stats by like 1 damage or so, you can make things balanced internally. Look at 2h, short fast but "decent" damage versus long, slow and high damage.

Why can't they do that for 1h, the long weapons are slow but have more damage and the short weapons are fast but decent

[oprah_winfrey]

and having a Paramarion OP, a Spathion the same as a Knightly, other weapons with same stats that are useless?

If you increase/decrease these stats by like 1 damage or so, you can make things balanced internally. Look at 2h, short fast but "decent" damage versus long, slow and high damage.

Why can't they do that for 1h, the long weapons are slow but have more damage and the short weapons are fast but decent

Because if the one handers have less then 30 cut they are useless, and if they have too much damage they are too good?

[Tydeus]

Higher damage and length means polearms can hit without bouncing at the very start of the animation, especially when your target is closer than the tip of your weapon, making polearms used like this effectively faster than 1h. Add to that the pretty awesome stabs, that have an even shorter animation before becoming active. I admit polearms can be awkward with lots of walls and teammates, though (but you can harm enemies with backswings too). Last night I looted Bars's GLB and hit him with it without bouncing even though I started my swing with the weapon model inside his corpse. This doesn't make any sense, and he does that all the time himself.

You get a shield in exchange for less damage, less length, less movement speed, more time before you can hit, less forgiving animations, blockstun (if your shield is light) and delayed block releases.

The shield gives you omnidirectional blocking but removes blocking physics, that is, you can't block people behind you even if their swing collides with your shield before you it also protects your front from projectiles but only when you keep it up which decreases your movement speed by 47% and also forbids you from sprinting. You shield can break (very quickly against axes) and you can also be shot through it by powerful crossbows.


Now, this was fine and all when Warband was a new game and nobody could manual block properly. Omnidirectional one-button blocking was quite an argument back then. Now most people can block just fine and those that don't stack strength and wear armor.

This is actually not true. It might take a huscarl or equivalent shield and the right angle, but it can most certainly be done.

Honetly though, with the amount of ranged and hoplites currently, you do seem to be downplaying the worth of shields and the ability to make full use of your weapon while using a shield.

[Phew]

I think 1h cut damage is mostly OK on medium armor targets, but the soak/mitigation formulas are totally broken above like 60 armor. 1h swords do pitiful damage against these targets, but 2h/pole weapons weapons with high cut (45+) still penetrate armor just fine. If cut is meant to be awful on plate, make it consistently so. A str 2h with a +3 Claymore will still 3-4 shot a guy in plate, just like a bar bace user would. Meanwhile a 1h sword takes 10+ hits. The other day, Formless and I were beating on the Lorden in loomed Black armor with like 100 HP. Formless had 36 cut, I had 38 cut (both on the high end of 1h), and both 6PS. I think we had to hit him a total of over 12 times. Oh, and Lorden consistently 1-shots either of us.

I'd rather they fix the 1h animations (thrust is total crap in a million ways, and right swing glances during the first 40% of the animation) than increase the base cut damage. 1h is boring and predictable with only one reliable attack direction (overhead is probably OK on EU1, with the turn speed changes, but we don't get that on NA).

[Phew]

Also, why do weapons have to have integer values for base damage? Would remove some redundancy to allow float values for damage.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

This is just random speculation. There is no damage cap, the current values are what the balance team deems adequate.

Why not just increase all melee damage by 5+ (might need different values for pierce and blunt and keeping the current damage of 2h stabs who certainly shouldn't be increased) for all weaponry? It'd allow for internally balancing 1h along with increasing general lethality which would be a great improvement to the mods current state.

[Tydeus]

Why not just increase all melee damage by 5+ (might need different values for pierce and blunt and keeping the current damage of 2h stabs who certainly shouldn't be increased) for all weaponry? It'd allow for internally balancing 1h along with increasing general lethality which would be a great improvement to the mods current state.

5 additional damage on a 30c weapon isn't equivalent to 5 additional cut on a 45c weapon. This would be a lot of work when you could just rescale armor values to a better effect, and spend less time doing so.