cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Kulin_ban on February 20, 2013, 02:54:17 pm
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HACKED
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Lots of weapons are in need of balance in terms of something other than cost/upkeep. All of those seldom used/heirloomed things. In the case of the Arming Sword, why not just add some weight to it. Make it resist block stuns more readily for the loss of some length and damage. Or increase the speed a bit. For any given weapon there are really three factors we can alter to make it desirable: weight, speed, and damage (since we can't really change length).
Let's look at the Falchion. 30 cut, 96 speed, 80 length, 1 weight.
Now the Nomad Sabre. 29 cut, 102 Speed, 87 length, 1 weight.
So for about a third less upkeep and 1 more cut damage, I'm losing 8 speed and 7 length by using a Falchion over a Nomad Sabre. God, that is... just awful. Why do we even have weapons like the Falchion in the game if they're just this bad. Any item should be competitive in some way- if you don't want to mess with the speed or damage, jack up the weight. But honestly, make all of the stuff close to the top of any given Shop section more viable instead of throwaway gags. Give them the buffs they deserve.
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all weapons aren't supposed to be equal, of course there are weapons that are better than other - we just need to make sure there are many enough viable options. There's no need to have 53 1 handers that have well-balanced stats, i personally think it's important to have lower and higher tier weapons so there are cheap options, you can go 'peasant' if you want, and just for overall variety. I mean, of course you don't want the staff to be as good as a large axe, yet people still use the staffs because they like them.
Bottom line is, i don't think balance is as bad as people like to say it is.
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Remove Loompoints. Reset characters.
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Goes deeper than just weapon grades. Loompoint selling broke gold as balancing mechanism which lead to an explosion in cav players and heavy armor too. Without loompoint selling not many people would be able to walk around in gear loadouts over 45-50k value.
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Goes deeper than just weapon grades. Loompoint selling broke gold as balancing mechanism which lead to an explosion in cav players and heavy armor too. Without loompoint selling not many people would be able to walk around in gear loadouts over 45-50k value.
I do not know what has happened since i stopped playing about a year ago and whether or not upkeep has been increased - but being cav did seem more supportable before than it does now... and most of the good cav players are lvl 34-35 anyways and have stopped retiring ages ago
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Market destroyed crpg.
I liked cRPG a lot more before the market. You had to earn every gold in the game, you had to do three generations for your favorite weapon or favorite piece of equipment. It was not possible to play non-stop in the top expensive equipment (like 90% crpg players now), because upkeep will kill you .. etc.
In these days new player just need to go through 1 generation, sell loom point for 450K, and play 24/7 like this:
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As I said, I like mod much more before market.
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Meh, I play with medium armor and do cav every few gens (1 out of 3ish) and I make tons of gold.
@sagar: The gold from that loadout would get wiped out in like 2-3 gens.
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I liked cRPG a lot more before the market. You had to earn every gold in the game, you had to do three generations for your favorite weapons or favorite piece of equipment.
As someone who made a ton of gold and looms on the market, I agree completely. The mod had a lot more flavor and soul before the market came out. Those items you had to grind to buy, used all the time, and heirloomed yourself defined your character and really gave you a feeling of investment.
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@sagar: The gold from that loadout would get wiped out in like 2-3 gens.
Yea, and in the meantime, you'll have another 3 LP. For 2 LP you will buy one masterwork item, and sell 1 loom point for 450K and continue to play in top gear.
As Xolvern said - the feeling in the mode was much better before. It feels much more like RPG before marketplace. I remember that, after 3 generations I got my first masterwork sword. And then when you go to server you feel something really special. It took 15 generations to have one set of armor and one weapon. Those were the days.
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No, screw grinding.
Marketplace is one of the best things that have happened to c-rpg (even though looms and levels are bs to begin with).
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Some people don't want a longer 1h weapon. I don't like the Long Espada, not because of the upkeep, but because it's difficult to use in facehug situations.
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You can go to EU2/EU1 these days and you will notice that 80% or even more of all the melee players wear medium/medium-heavy armor. (Even worse if a lot of clans are online)
There's simply a huge lack of lightly armored melee fighters and the reason is that loomed medium armor is so much more effective. Another problem is the whole "sell a loompoint, never care about upkeep again" thing, which has already been adressed a thousand times.
All this works together and kinda destroyes the diversity of builds and equipment which cRPG stands for in my opinion.
But you can't blame people for sticking with the best weapons. I always chose style and uniqueness over efficiency, but a lot of people don't and that's totally understandable.
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The reason you see most people in mid-high tear armor is because you put yourself at a huge disadvantage to have less then 40-50 body armor.
I'm not really sure on times here, but was upkeep increased after the marketplace or prior to it?
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Maybe if people actually stopped active leechers (like the people who equip a torch for 3 weeks of daily play in the battle server) you wouldn't have so much money available for people to spend on loompoints.
The money has to come from somewhere (in game) it isn't produced by the chadz mint.
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Maybe if people actually stopped active leechers (like the people who equip a torch for 3 weeks of daily play in the battle server) you wouldn't have so much money available for people to spend on loompoints.
The money has to come from somewhere (in game) it isn't produced by the chadz mint.
A lot of it is residual gold that has just been sitting around for a while. Mostly from old players. Also most people play they make gold without even trying to.
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I like how people complain about players wearing good armor and don't think everyone should be able to wear the 'best' armor all the time, yet they want all weapons to be equally good, and they want every weapon to be as good as the best, which would also make everyone use the 'best' weapons.
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Yea, and in the meantime, you'll have another 3 LP. For 2 LP you will buy one masterwork item, and sell 1 loom point for 450K and continue to play in top gear.
This is assuming that he's comfortable playing with that much of a handicap to begin with, which is a pretty big assumption.
I like how people complain about players wearing good armor and don't think everyone should be able to wear the 'best' armor all the time, yet they want all weapons to be equally good, and they want every weapon to be as good as the best, which would also make everyone use the 'best' weapons.
It's not like I want every weapon to do the same damage, have the same speed, be the same weight and length- I'd just like for the lower tier ones to shine in SOME way other than cost, which doesn't matter. I think it would add a little spice if the "peasant" weapons were given say, extreme weight. They'd still be relatively low damage, slow, and often short weapons, but would have at least some benefit by way of not having to worry about being block stunned, and actually work towards block stunning others, supporting their team in a different way. They probably still wouldn't be used as often as weapons which are more likely to illicit 1-shots, but at least there would be a reason to use them beyond "I'm level 6 and/or poor".
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Yeah..
As a 1hander, you really only need this baby:
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88 length is perfect without getting stuck on anything.
Upkeep: 278
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the lower tier weapons usually have quite high speed which makes it easier to fight with the low wpf you have at low lvl - which is, of course, an advantage - and in the period after retiring, you can't use higher tier weapons anyways due to strength requirements.
I still think it's good to have lower tier weapons, and feel like they work quite well at the moment... it also has to make some sort of sense realistically... i mean, it doesnt really seem very obvious that a 102 speed stick should suddenly have a weight-rating of 8
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We will never get balance until we get capitalism factor into upkeep. Then perhaps upkeep will reflect the weapon power.
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fun is more important than perfection
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What Thomek said. Upkeep variance between weapons is too low. Weapon price and upkeep should depend on how many times an item is used. This would lead to more weapon diversity and a dynamic market.
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A lot of people forget the idea of how the weapon looks. Sounds cheesy but hear me out. Some hit boxes will differ due to the sword itself. An arming sword is a bit wider and shorter. Wider weapons are more likely to hit the target faster than a thinner one. (Theory)
Also, shorter weapons can be very effective for a bunch of reasons. If you are clusterd in enemies or allies, you won't team hit or bounce off a guy you were not trying to hit.
Side note, smaller weapons are harder to keep track of. No matter if the speed is the same as a larger weapon. Only a little harder, but its still something.
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Exactly Necro. Weapon power is too complex, depends on too many factors including a constantly changing metagame, to be reflected in a static price.
That's why we only see a fraction of the weapons we have available actually being used on the battlefield.
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Market destroyed crpg.
I liked cRPG a lot more before the market. You had to earn every gold in the game, you had to do three generations for your favorite weapon or favorite piece of equipment. It was not possible to play non-stop in the top expensive equipment (like 90% crpg players now), because upkeep will kill you .. etc.
In these days new player just need to go through 1 generation, sell loom point for 450K, and play 24/7 like this:
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As I said, I like mod much more before market.
inposibur to upkeep that even with 500k per 1 gen
but dosent change fact then we have way to much gold around
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Market made the (already really bad) upkeep system ultimatively useless in terms of balancing player equipment.
- No equipment limitation
Upkeep system did not prevent the use of overpowered gear, it only limited the duration of that use. Doesn't remove the frustration when fighting an enemy with way superior gear. And if more players kind of "take turns" in going full geardo, you always have people who have superior gear, making them deadly and close to unkillable. The only advantage upkeep brought compared to before was lowering the percentage of those opponents, but that's it. The market took away even that.
- Bad design
It's an ugly system as you are always afraid of losing something, and you have constant fear of becoming less effective than before by losing too much money. Which is a backstep, and you should never experience backsteps in games. All of this only without a market. With a market look above.
- Low performance based reward factor
Your equipment and thus your performance and your fun are dependant on your team. And your team consists of the members of the cRPG community. Which means your fun is (partially) dependant on the cRPG community. Good god. The multiplier system is really bad, as the player is rewarded almost (!) independantly to his performance. And together with banner balance clan players are heavily favourised by such a system. Valour on the other hand is not a good thing as well, as it is related to the next point:
- Splitting the community
The gap between good and bad players is being increased even more. If a good players actually manages to influence the outcome of most rounds he plays, he can afford better equipment, which is a self fortifying effect, also applying to clan players in general. Being a clanless average player and a top of the notch clan player means two totally different gaming experiences.
- Bad for item balance
Due to the missing limitations by upkeep in combintion with the marketplace, balancing items is made much more difficult, and the choices get reduced for the players. There is no point in using cheap or cost-effective items, only those with the best statistics, which means that the item choice is reduced to a small range of items within an item class, which have about the same effectivity. And making most items have about the same effectivity makes the game more dull and plain.
It should be replaced by something which is more consistent, predictable, motivating and... working? My only idea was having an item value budget of what you can equip, and this value raises with your level and by increasing a certain wealth-skill. My point was to keep the characters at the same might level, and the only other thing next to equipment which determines this might (before player skill kicks in) are the character stats, so you have to balance one with the other. So if you want to play a heavily armoured knight on an armoured horse you are free to do so, but you will have a few less skill points spent in fighting skills, making you slower and/or less hard hitting than a player of the same level playing light cavalry. You have (more) balance there, it's more consistent, you don't have worries about losing, and it will most likely increase build variety. Upkeep more or less removed heavy cav from the game, which says enough about it.
But I would be happy with any other solution. Just remove the goddamn upkeep and multiplier system finally.
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Sorry for everyone not replying on their comments, especially you joker. I am too lazy to read much of the stuff at the moment. Apologizes.
I will just point out a small fact that I have realized, concerning item balance.
A lot of people forget the idea of how the weapon looks. Sounds cheesy but hear me out. Some hit boxes will differ due to the sword itself. An arming sword is a bit wider and shorter. Wider weapons are more likely to hit the target faster than a thinner one. (Theory)
I believe weapon look is an important factor. But I don't think they do have different hit boxes or something like that. Their visual appearance make one thing different only, they can be easily spotted from which direction the attack comes. Which is an important factor.
To give you an example; try Sword of War first. Then try Danish Greatsword. You'll see your attacks with a Sword of War will get blocked more comparatively.
Same principle for the Steel pick + Huscarl Shield combination. The shield is big, and steel pick is very small. Therefore it is much harder to spot. Combined with the fast attacking speed of steel pick, it can be much more harder to block.
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I believe weapon look is an important factor. But I don't think they do have different hit boxes or something like that. Their visual appearance make one thing different only, they can be easily spotted from which direction the attack comes. Which is an important factor.
It was merely a theory. No one really knows for sure except the people behind it, although I am making the assumption that weapons work that way. It would make sense for weapons like axes and Bardiches. Although, as I said. It is just a assumption I made.
The ability to spot it is a factor, you are right. Although, that kinda sides with the italian sword if you think about it. It is thin and white. Cut it down to 1 length and you have my penis.
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Cut it down to 1 length and you have my penis.
Your penis is long 1cm? I feel with you, man :(