Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Panos on January 15, 2013, 02:44:03 pm
and in case someone didnt notice..3 xbows 1 arhcer..
archer vs archer
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Prpavi on January 15, 2013, 02:47:06 pm
the excitement of EU_1 never ceases to amaze me
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on January 15, 2013, 02:48:13 pm
Good, good. About time melee got shot to pieces. Very nice pictures
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Panos on January 15, 2013, 02:54:39 pm
80% of the rounds have the same ending..ranged vs ranged.
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Haboe on January 15, 2013, 02:54:42 pm
Stop whining about ranged, its natural they survive till the end... They don't get involved in melee, cause thats not their class. Then ofc they survive when they don't get picked off by cav.
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Everkistus on January 15, 2013, 02:58:47 pm
Goddamn crossbows everywhere.
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Strudog on January 15, 2013, 02:59:24 pm
Guess how much damage(percentage) is done by ranged on EU1!
How many times are people killed from the stagger alone?
Should damage alone define the strength of a class?
And you say other people are campaigning for their class. To me hardly any ranged hits are legit damage in a melee centric game, with the ranged mechanics being what they are (and it being so easy to hyrbid with xbows expecially)
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Macropus on January 15, 2013, 09:08:32 pm
Should damage alone define the strength of a class?
Yes it should. It's not exact definition, but it's quite accurate comparing with "archers shot me to death twise for last two rounds" and other self-experience-based statements. Not only arrows cause stagger, a lot of people get staggered in melee which causes their death, so it's a mutual effect.
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Grumbs on January 15, 2013, 09:13:54 pm
You can't plan for a ranged stagger, it will come from nowhere. If I get staggered in melee its because I didn't block correctly or I let someone sneak up on me
Applying damage from range is the biggest tactical advantage you can get in cRPG, and you get it without having to engage players in PVP. The damage you get should be a reflection of some input you made into the game, some mistake an opponent made or from some decent teamwork. Not that you spawned with x class and sat on y hill and left clicked. That shouldn't be rewarded with any damage
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Prpavi on January 15, 2013, 09:15:48 pm
Guess how much damage(percentage) is done by ranged on EU1!
by this scentence we can also guess who hasnt played the mod in god knows how long.
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Paul on January 15, 2013, 09:50:46 pm
Oh, I've played quite a lot recently. I even started a horse thrower now that ranged speed bonus is finally fixed. Ranged damage is about 20% btw, so TWICE as much as the average estimates in this thread. I guess it's time for another nerf then.
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on January 15, 2013, 10:12:59 pm
haha and leshma wanted to get rid of EU4 because of "assholes" and the likes! Guess they either all moved to EU1 an-..... oh wait EU1 always has been full of assholes. My bad
But seriously Panos this is very very old news, Archers swarming EU1 as well as cav very very old news. Perhaps post some screens of a time when EU1 is not overflowing with cav or ranged! I think that would shock and interest people more then this. :lol:
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Shemaforash on January 15, 2013, 10:28:30 pm
Buff archers pls
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Leshma on January 15, 2013, 10:29:25 pm
Currently there's 40 players on EU1 (it's prime time). I guess people got fed with constant changes of game mechanics or ranged. Some of those two things are definitely the reason.
Edit: It's strategus...
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Rumblood on January 15, 2013, 10:35:35 pm
18 str requirement for arbalest and free respec to errybody!
Imho great damage should be followed by great strength
(click to show/hide)
no pd to xbows
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: XyNox on January 15, 2013, 11:32:45 pm
WHAT ? ARCHERS ON EU1 SURVIVING TILL END OF ROUND ??? PREPOSTEROUS !!!
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Alexander_TheGreat_ on January 16, 2013, 05:17:36 am
how i want to feel
or wanna feel
how i feel it....
reality on eu1...
i think that all the characters and actors in the movies i've sended, they've all played cRPG before...and they all left to get a life and a job....making movies.
Cheers :D
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Gravoth_iii on January 16, 2013, 08:34:21 am
Oh, I've played quite a lot recently. I even started a horse thrower now that ranged speed bonus is finally fixed. Ranged damage is about 20% btw, so TWICE as much as the average estimates in this thread. I guess it's time for another nerf then.
Wait, so throwing speed bonus is fixed? sweet, buffs for my HT! :mrgreen:
On topic: get a shield.
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on January 16, 2013, 10:04:49 am
18 str requirement for arbalest and free respec to errybody!
Imho great damage should be followed by great strength
So you probably think that a handgun has 20 kilos?
I wouldnt mind if xbows require something additional for use. Add a wpf minimum for each xbow would probably be the easiest part and you wouldnt have to worry that xbows get a bonus from it.
If you add PD there would have to be some kind of benefit for it. 14% damage increase per point would be wonderfull, I'd run around with 2 light xbows, 2 stacks of bolts and all wpf in xbow. If you dont want that, in order to make it somehow "realistic" PD could determine how fast you can reload the xbow, but that would result in very fast arbalests. I'm not sure you would want that either. After all, you would have to post new QQ topics.
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on January 16, 2013, 11:36:31 am
bolt or arrow?
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on January 16, 2013, 11:41:38 am
Need to switch to arbalest again :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Strudog on January 16, 2013, 11:43:13 am
crossbow damage is very sporadic sometimes it will take 2/3 of your health sometimes it will take 1/100th of your health, probably a combination of factors
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Paul on January 16, 2013, 11:48:40 am
Got shot with a bolt in the arm today and lost nearly 2/3 of hp(did not even see where it came from).
I need 8 hits to die from average melee guy.
Not a rant, just reality.
Remake that test on EU3 with 100 repetitions. If the average damage is still >60% for an arm shot of a >40 armor, >50 hp guy AND if the same guy needs on average more than 8 hits from a 18 str, 6 PS guy with a 30c melee weapon, then I'll think about bringing arba damage up for discussion.
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Grumbs on January 16, 2013, 11:58:23 am
Remake that test on EU3 with 100 repetitions. If the average damage is still >60% for an arm shot of a >40 armor, >50 hp guy AND if the same guy needs on average more than 8 hits from a 18 str, 6 PS guy with a 30c melee weapon, then I'll think about bringing arba damage up for discussion.
Just wondering, but you make this sound like you're the key guy for weapon balancing in cRPG. Is that the case atm? You'll think about bringing arba up for discussion if it happens to be exactly what he said, 8 or more hits for melee and 2 for ranged? Gee thanks a lot. If he does that he will prove the balance is bad...
You could put sniper rifles in the game and balance them enough so you would think they were underpowered. Make them reload in 30 seconds and do 3 HP of damage, they would still be 3 damage too much
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Grumbs on January 16, 2013, 12:29:01 pm
Also, don't think of crossbow guys like they're only using a crossbow. These guys get 2 or 1 hit kills and have plenty of armour as well as a choice of melee weapon. You don't have to use the top 2 xbows and you can use any melee weapon you like. Use arba and they all still have a blunt knockdown weapon and full melee capability
2 hits with these point & click weapons is a joke, then you add that they are also regular infantrymen too..
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Paul on January 16, 2013, 12:32:24 pm
I'm not the key guy. I'm one guy. That's why I said I'll bring it up for discussion instead of "I'll change it".
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: BlueKnight on January 16, 2013, 12:40:38 pm
So you probably think that a handgun has 20 kilos?
I wouldnt mind if xbows require something additional for use. Add a wpf minimum for each xbow would probably be the easiest part and you wouldnt have to worry that xbows get a bonus from it.
If you add PD there would have to be some kind of benefit for it. 14% damage increase per point would be wonderfull, I'd run around with 2 light xbows, 2 stacks of bolts and all wpf in xbow. If you dont want that, in order to make it somehow "realistic" PD could determine how fast you can reload the xbow, but that would result in very fast arbalests. I'm not sure you would want that either. After all, you would have to post new QQ topics.
You have misunderstood me. It's not like it needs more strength to carry xbow but to load it. You are pulling the string without additional help of any mechanism so it should require more strength.
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on January 16, 2013, 12:51:51 pm
You have misunderstood me. It's not like it needs more strength to carry xbow but to load it. You are pulling the string without additional help of any mechanism so it should require more strength.
You have to consider that xbow guys reload their weapons while standing still, which means they are using their feet to hold the xbow on the ground and then pull up the string with both hands. Its not that you can run around reloading it.
Grumbs: Dedicated xbows are not infantry. For properly using a 2slot xbow you need at least 140wpf to have reliable accuracy. 150-160 or above is probably the number that people use for these weapons. Leaves 1 slot for either a 2h mace, langes messer or any 1h.
Another thing is that people who play xbow might be good at melee because they played infantry a lot. But that is individual skill. A veteran with 5PS could beat a tincan noob with a wooden stick.
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: SirCymro_Crusader on January 16, 2013, 01:17:02 pm
Saw the title as 'Please Help' and the author as Panos....
...Thought it was another help the poor Greek thread....
...then i saw your graphics and thought you really do need help...
...but then i saw all the ranged and part of me cried
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Panos on January 16, 2013, 01:19:11 pm
On topic: Please guys help me with cRPG on my netbook, I currently have like 1 fps on it :(
Netbook? Arent netbook these things that look like a tiny laptop... didnt know these could run games at all
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Macropus on January 16, 2013, 04:05:39 pm
It can, but as I said, impossible to actually play cRPG... :| No problem with some older games though.
PS: leeching isn't impossible though :twisted:
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Piok on January 16, 2013, 04:50:32 pm
Even hunting crossbow is very deadly weapon. Much more deadlier then low tier bows with no skill invest. Still nerf ammo count it solves lots of problems with ranged.
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Aprikose on January 16, 2013, 05:46:44 pm
First I thought we should help you because of your goddamn ugly graphics :D
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 16, 2013, 06:56:27 pm
Another archer whine thread?
There are archers and crossbows and throwers in Warband and in cRPG.
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Rumblood on January 16, 2013, 10:34:11 pm
Quote
Grumbs: Dedicated xbows are not infantry. For properly using a 2slot xbow you need at least 140wpf to have reliable accuracy. 150-160 or above is probably the number that people use for these weapons. Leaves 1 slot for either a 2h mace, langes messer or any 1h.
Ahem. When someone gets hit with a bolt, it doesn't matter whether it was difficult for the xbow player or not. It still does the same damage. They don't have to spend points on PD, they can drop them into PS or IF or WM or extra attribute points for greater PS or IF or WM. So you don't find many "dedicated" xbowers, mainly infantry with a handy range spam sidearm that hits just fine when fired into a crowd. You don't need WPF for that.
Xbow's need to be designed similiar to archery so that any tincan can't simply pick it up and do as much damage as a dedicated xbow'er.
Example, if they put the minimum into archery (1 PD), they would be laughably ineffective compared to an archer with 6PD. The best they can use is a short bow, and they would not get the bonus damage % per PD. Compare that to the Rus Bow with 6 x the bonus damage and there is no comparison. Throwing is the same situation. A tincan with 1 PT and throwing knives is not even close to being as deadly as a thrower with 6 PT and Throwing Spears (or 7 PT and Throwing Lances!)
The solution to the "ranged problem" is so disgustingly simple I don't know why it hasn't been implemented. Use the same mechanic that archery and throwing both use so that a tincan with the minimum invested into a xbow can only use the smallest crossbow with only 1 PD and so that someone who is dedicated can do more damage with the same weapon due to higher PD. If they want to run around with an Arbalest, make them get 6 or 7 PD. (Yes, I realize base damage would need to be reconfigured so that PD 7-8 or so is the about the same as current damage)
You would see ranged spam dramatically decrease as it would be more worthwhile for them to take something else, or they would need to dedicate more precious skill points and be less effective as melee.
To offset that change, make it so that players have a 5 slot inventory limit if a player does not have a xbow, a bow, or a throwing weapon equipped. So yes, ranged would get fewer options, while melee would have more melee options as they should. That would allow dedicated melee to both have a 2 slot weapon for up close fighting, and a 3 slot pike or something for dealing with cavalry, while preventing ranged from doing the same. Or they could have a 2 slot 2 hander, plus a 1 hander AND a 2 slot shield.
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on January 17, 2013, 09:03:44 am
Ahem. When someone gets hit with a bolt, it doesn't matter whether it was difficult for the xbow player or not. It still does the same damage. They don't have to spend points on PD, they can drop them into PS or IF or WM or extra attribute points for greater PS or IF or WM. So you don't find many "dedicated" xbowers, mainly infantry with a handy range spam sidearm that hits just fine when fired into a crowd. You don't need WPF for that.
Xbow's need to be designed similiar to archery so that any tincan can't simply pick it up and do as much damage as a dedicated xbow'er.
Example, if they put the minimum into archery (1 PD), they would be laughably ineffective compared to an archer with 6PD. The best they can use is a short bow, and they would not get the bonus damage % per PD. Compare that to the Rus Bow with 6 x the bonus damage and there is no comparison. Throwing is the same situation. A tincan with 1 PT and throwing knives is not even close to being as deadly as a thrower with 6 PT and Throwing Spears (or 7 PT and Throwing Lances!)
The solution to the "ranged problem" is so disgustingly simple I don't know why it hasn't been implemented. Use the same mechanic that archery and throwing both use so that a tincan with the minimum invested into a xbow can only use the smallest crossbow with only 1 PD and so that someone who is dedicated can do more damage with the same weapon due to higher PD. If they want to run around with an Arbalest, make them get 6 or 7 PD. (Yes, I realize base damage would need to be reconfigured so that PD 7-8 or so is the about the same as current damage)
You would see ranged spam dramatically decrease as it would be more worthwhile for them to take something else, or they would need to dedicate more precious skill points and be less effective as melee.
To offset that change, make it so that players have a 5 slot inventory limit if a player does not have a xbow, a bow, or a throwing weapon equipped. So yes, ranged would get fewer options, while melee would have more melee options as they should. That would allow dedicated melee to both have a 2 slot weapon for up close fighting, and a 3 slot pike or something for dealing with cavalry, while preventing ranged from doing the same. Or they could have a 2 slot 2 hander, plus a 1 hander AND a 2 slot shield.
An xbow is different to a bow, why you always wanna compare it to a bow or throwing weapon. Just nerf the accuracy to hell and back if somebody uses an xbow without wpf. There is QQing about ranged that can defend themselves against melee, then QQing that ranged runs away, then weight is increased, now we're not allowed to get wpf in 2 categories? I can use a melee weapon with sufficient strength, no wpf in it and 0PS. I will not do much damage but the hit will go exactly where I want it to. Xbow bolt will not be accurate but will do the same damage, reloading will take longer.
Just make all xbows 2 slot and nobody will use it as backup weapon because u need 3 slots for the xbow+bolts. Dedicated xbows wont complain much (at least I wouldnt) because we take the 2slot anyway but all these sidearms will disappear.
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on January 17, 2013, 11:43:31 am
Introduce Power Reload skill that would be required to reload a specific crossbow. For example:
Hunting Crossbow would require Power Reload 1 Light Crossbow would require Power Reload 2 Crossbow would require Power Reload 3 Heavy Crossbow would require Power Reload 4 Arbalest would require Power Reload 5
Values are off the top of my head because I am not a balancing expert.
Use this. Per 3 Strength - 1 Power Reload, same as for Powerstrike or Powerdraw. Just think of a benefit that it should bring, just like all the other skills. Then nerf xbow stats so they become the same as they were when you invested in Power Reload.
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: bagge on January 17, 2013, 12:13:28 pm
Never seen one of these threads before.. Funny
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: bagge on January 17, 2013, 12:14:14 pm
Stop whining about ranged, its natural they survive till the end... They don't get involved in melee, cause thats not their class. Then ofc they survive when they don't get picked off by cav.
Introduce Power Reload skill that would be required to reload a specific crossbow. For example:
Hunting Crossbow would require Power Reload 1 Light Crossbow would require Power Reload 2 Crossbow would require Power Reload 3 Heavy Crossbow would require Power Reload 4 Arbalest would require Power Reload 5
Values are off the top of my head because I am not a balancing expert.
I`d say let them use powerdraw, would give archers and xbowmen an alternative to mix up the game a bit.
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: bagge on January 17, 2013, 12:22:52 pm
Introduce Power Reload skill that would be required to reload a specific crossbow. For example:
Hunting Crossbow would require Power Reload 1 Light Crossbow would require Power Reload 2 Crossbow would require Power Reload 3 Heavy Crossbow would require Power Reload 4 Arbalest would require Power Reload 5
Values are off the top of my head because I am not a balancing expert.
5 pd arbalest very very bad !!
injustice ! ! I love Archer but
a very difficult game, archer rus bow 6pd and hit hard
ps. Make it 6.
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Molly on January 17, 2013, 12:24:42 pm
You would raise the difficulty of the arbalest from 15 to 18 Strength AND need to invest 6 additional skill points. I think thats a bit tough.
Pah well deserved I say :wink:
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: bagge on January 17, 2013, 12:43:53 pm
Honestly thou, melee's you are such whiny little cunts. As Haboe said, ranged don't engage melee, we try to keep our distance, it's only natural that we are alive at the end of the round. Try to fucking think once in awhile.
What would you have devs do anyway, how can they help? Ooo, ooo, I have an idea, say if archers and xbowmen only can shoot 1 arrow per minute. Maybe then you can stop whining, oh wait, you wont stop whining, instead you'll find another subject.. AH, PIKES, fucking pikes! Abusers, nerds, cunts.
Stop spending so much time on the fucking forums whining.
bundle of stickss
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: bagge on January 17, 2013, 12:45:25 pm
edit: oh nvm, you can't write my old friend + otts. :(
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Leshma on January 17, 2013, 12:52:06 pm
You need to learn how to say sorry, baggeh.
And don't shoot in melee.
We will carry shields, I promise.
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: highglandeur on January 17, 2013, 01:20:01 pm
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Torben on January 17, 2013, 04:04:57 pm
An xbow is different to a bow, why you always wanna compare it to a bow or throwing weapon.
Not to an infantry getting hit by some fgtranged weapon it isn't. Making it inaccurate doesn't change a thing for them when they get hit by wtfomg damage that is the same. Make them invest more of their skill points, make the hybrid with less PD do less damage. That is balance. Reality of its effect in game > physical reality of the weapon.
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on January 17, 2013, 07:02:30 pm
The answer to your archer curiosity Panos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqZ9qXm3uNQ
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Torben on January 17, 2013, 07:09:43 pm
If it doesnt apply on angled buildings ignore me. otherwise shooting from stairs, roofs etc would be disadvantageous, as well as attackers using hills.
It would make sense. Standing on flat land gives you better balance. Would this also apply for HA, btw?
dude, we talking about trained soldiers, i think they could manage... did you see the video where the horsearcher shot 3 arrows midair whilst falling of his horse with incredible accuracy?
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: Leshma on January 17, 2013, 08:12:19 pm
If it doesnt apply on angled buildings ignore me. otherwise shooting from stairs, roofs etc would be disadvantageous, as well as attackers using hills.
also, stop nerfing the mod ^^
Well, I'm all for making elevation be more important for damage. You shooting at someone atop a wall when you are at the bottom, you should do less damage. But if the higher elevation is a hill, you also lose accuracy for the extra damage. Buff walls!
Title: Re: Please help..
Post by: bagge on January 18, 2013, 12:22:20 am