cRPG
cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Baron_Settmour on April 24, 2011, 11:04:44 pm
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I really do hate to complain but I'm noticing more and more that this game is just devolving into an arrow spam fest. I was just playing on the NA Siege server where I noticed that out of the 68 players on the server, 42 of them were archers/crossbowmen. That leaves only 26 people using other weapons and I guarantee you that at least 1/3 of that number are hybrid archers/crossbowmen as well.
You all know the complaints. On defense, they never help. On offense, they team wound like mad. Therefore, I think there needs to be a limit to the amount of bows used on a server if possible. I only hope the rumors of this next patch killing hybrids is true. We will see far fewer people strumming bows knowing that they won't have a polearm/2H/sword & shield to whip out in melee.
Any other suggestions are welcome. I'm serious when I say I think this is a problem because how can we even enjoy the game when melee has become obsolete to a storm of arrows?
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Great, so when I use my archer who is near useless in melee, I can't use my weapon because some dedicated 2Her is wielding an xbow as a sidearm?
I would be for something like this only if it first made a priority of highest wpf to lowest for any range consideration (but then low levels get screwed). Even then I am not so sure I am comfortable with this idea.
As for siege, it mainly works for defenders to carry range as fortifications are more for archery then melee, though in battle I do see this range spam as a problem.
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Great, so when I sue my archer who is near useless in melee, I can't use my weapon because some dedicated 2Her is wielding an xbow as a sidearm?
I would be for something like this only if it first made a priority of highest wpf to lowest for any range consideration (but then low levels get screwed). Even then I am not so sure I am comfortable with this idea.
I don't think a 2Her should be able to use a crossbow as a sidearm either. The reason that people specialized in the middle ages was because, just like today, Rambo is something of stories and not reality. But in C-RPG, we have far too many Rambos who want to have a crossbow, 2Her, and throwing lances on one character.
Perhaps adjusting it so that you MUST have a high WPF to use a bow and crossbow effectively. Otherwise your shots will be ridiculously off 9 times out of 10. As it stands now? I use a polearm but I can pick up any crossbow on the battlefield and shoot an archer with my 0 WPF in crossbow better than he can shoot me with his 130+ wpf in archery or crossbow. How is that fair?
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I really do hate to complain but I'm noticing more and more that this game is just devolving into an arrow spam fest. I was just playing on the NA Siege server where I noticed that out of the 68 players on the server, 42 of them were archers/crossbowmen. That leaves only 26 people using other weapons and I guarantee you that at least 1/3 of that number are hybrid archers/crossbowmen as well.
Hi
How did you find out that 42 of em were archers/crossbowmen? How do you differ between hybrids and pure rangers? What is a crossbowman and what is a 2hspammer with xbow on his back?
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I was just playing on the NA Siege server where I noticed that out of the 68 players on the server, 42 of them were archers/crossbowmen
And whats the problem?The main reason people whine about ranged because most of infatry right now dont have shields.I can understand if there is 90% ranged everyday on servers like in native,but crpg is quite balanced(except few issues,but I think slot system will solve this problem),and I assure you that 5 shielders will kill 10 archers without any problem.Sometimes there is a big amount of infanty in team,sometimes ranged,sometimes cav.Every class have right to exist.The main problem is this damned camping tactic on battles.In clan wars camping always lead to losing,because enemy will take better position to reach ''master of the field'' flag.But in simple battles people want just to have fun,they dont want to wait.If ''master of the field'' will appear faster it will solve many problems,including archer camping.
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how do you know if that is a crossbow side arm? what if he has 120 wpf in it?? hey WTF THAT ARCHER HAS 1 WPF hes using a great sword thats not fair..... or a war spear and as fast as me with it... just wait for slot system, then those archers will be using 1her's and those 2her will be using normal crossbow which do shit damage, problem solved
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Wow, not only do the anti-ranged folks here already seem over harsh, but now they're even using chocolate chip cookie terminology. Calm down there einstein, the slot patch will already gimp ranged hugely. No need to limit their numbers even more.
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Wow, not only do the anti-ranged folks here already seem over harsh, but now they're even using chocolate chip cookie terminology. Calm down there einstein, the slot patch will already gimp ranged hugely. No need to limit their numbers even more.
were was this terminology? I must have missed it...
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and I assure you that 5 shielders will kill 10 archers without any problem.
FALSE
With similar skill, any number n of archers fighting at most n-1 melee will win.
The main problem is this damned camping tactic on battles.
And why do you think people camp ???
They do not want to be shot dead right after they spawned. A pure melee is completly helpless during at least the first two minutes of a round, having to find somewhere to hide, waiting for the ranged spam to calm down.
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were was this terminology? I must have missed it...
Sorry, was a bit of a joke there.. einstein's "Final Solution" for his "Jewish problem". Didn't think it was a obscure reference.
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Sorry, was a bit of a joke there.. einstein's "Final Solution" for his "Jewish problem". Didn't think it was a obscure reference.
The Risen server has found it actually...
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Sorry, was a bit of a joke there.. einstein's "Final Solution" for his "Jewish problem". Didn't think it was a obscure reference.
I um... oh, I see now. I just was thinking of other "Final Solution" references so it never crossed my mind. :oops:
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There isn't an archer issue, honestly. Well, at least to those of us who remember how they used to be. It may seem to be ridiculous when you're running around in a gambeson with no shield and no IF, but that's your mistake.
With a shield or heavy armour, it's fine. The only time it's a real issue is when archers coordinate crossfires, and hey, I don't know about you but I like seeing people coordinate.
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And why do you think people camp ???
They do not want to be shot dead right after they spawned. A pure melee is completly helpless during at least the first two minutes of a round, having to find somewhere to hide, waiting for the ranged spam to calm down.
And thats the problem.
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Can i complain about getting focus fired at?
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There isn't an archer issue, honestly. Well, at least to those of us who remember how they used to be. It may seem to be ridiculous when you're running around in a gambeson with no shield and no IF, but that's your mistake.
With a shield or heavy armour, it's fine. The only time it's a real issue is when archers coordinate crossfires, and hey, I don't know about you but I like seeing people coordinate.
You are giving archers far too much credit, especially on Siege. Of course they "coordinate" because they are just shooting down at the ramp on most servers. Really not that hard to suppress the attacking team with 30 bows all firing in one central area.
Oh, and for whoever asked, "How do you know there was that many?" Simple. Switched to Spectator and counted every individual. Took 5 minutes of my life but was worth pointing out how ridiculous archer spam is in this game. It comes down to this, if I "camp" on some servers, I am accused of leeching so I have no choice but to walk into the middle of archer rapid fire over and over. If I go out into the archer spam, even with my plate, I still die a horrible death without once even getting near a damn enemy. Where's the fun in that? There isn't any.
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Oh, and for whoever asked, "How do you know there was that many?" Simple. Switched to Spectator and counted every individual. Took 5 minutes of my life but was worth pointing out how ridiculous archer spam is in this game. It comes down to this, if I "camp" on some servers, I am accused of leeching so I have no choice but to walk into the middle of archer rapid fire over and over. If I go out into the archer spam, even with my plate, I still die a horrible death without once even getting near a damn enemy. Where's the fun in that? There isn't any.
So by 42 archers/crossbowers you mean everyone who used or had a bow or crossbow equipped, including all the hybrids?
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So by 42 archers/crossbowers you mean everyone who used or had a bow or crossbow equipped, including all the hybrids?
Those that I saw with crossbows or bows out at the moment of me spectating them. I didn't bother to interview them about their hybrid status.
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Archers are fine. You just have to get a shield. The only non-archery points I have: 5 PS, 70 wpf in 2h, and I get most of my kills in melee.
Any shielder should be able close to melee against an archer. If you're getting pegged in the back, that's just bad positioning for you.
Heck, If I can run to an enemy archer, I'll just dodge his arrows and melee him instead of doing an archery war.
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There isn't an archer issue, honestly. Well, at least to those of us who remember how they used to be. It may seem to be ridiculous when you're running around in a gambeson with no shield and no IF, but that's your mistake.
With a shield or heavy armour, it's fine. The only time it's a real issue is when archers coordinate crossfires, and hey, I don't know about you but I like seeing people coordinate.
My horse, or rather pincushion now, knows all about coordinated archery fire. Not that it's coordinated really, but whenever they see me all turn and shoot for me :(
Although after 1 minute they all are too focused on the others so I can rid into their midst and couch, lance and slice my way through half their archers before they can say "Fiddlesticks!"
Hahaha! The life of the Horseman is short and risky! But if done right, many dead will be left behind you!
Also if the archerspam (yes it IS an ridiculous archerspam now, not as bad as native but still...) gets too hard for you, then there is alwasy Risen_cRPG (*dramatic music*) the ONE and ONLY Completely MELEE SERVEEEEEEER!!!!! (Advertising our server is totally coincidential...)
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Archers are fine. You just have to get a shield. The only non-archery points I have: 5 PS, 70 wpf in 2h, and I get most of my kills in melee.
Any shielder should be able close to melee against an archer. If you're getting pegged in the back, that's just bad positioning for you.
Heck, If I can run to an enemy archer, I'll just dodge his arrows and melee him instead of doing an archery war.
So...you're solution is for EVERYONE to be a shielder? Ya...that really works. My main build is a tank polearm. He has enough weight with the armor and weaponry. A shield is not going to do my speed any good.
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I don't think a 2Her should be able to use a crossbow as a sidearm either. The reason that people specialized in the middle ages was because, just like today, Rambo is something of stories and not reality. But in C-RPG, we have far too many Rambos who want to have a crossbow, 2Her, and throwing lances on one character.
Perhaps adjusting it so that you MUST have a high WPF to use a bow and crossbow effectively. Otherwise your shots will be ridiculously off 9 times out of 10. As it stands now? I use a polearm but I can pick up any crossbow on the battlefield and shoot an archer with my 0 WPF in crossbow better than he can shoot me with his 130+ wpf in archery or crossbow. How is that fair?
Wait a second, you clearly just pointed out that the problem is with xbows. Cut the crap over archers. There is no Archer issue.
And yes, get a shield. You have extra slots.
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Wait a second, you clearly just pointed out that the problem is with xbows. Cut the crap over archers. There is no Archer issue.
And yes, get a shield. You have extra slots.
It's all arrows. That was just an example of what the previous poster was talking about where 2Hers rip out xbows like sidearms. Though I personally disagree with it, what choice do we have when everyone else has one? Arrow spam is getting retarded.
And please read the rest of the thread before commenting. I already said that adding a shield is unnecessary weight on a character I use for tanking.
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Arrows =/= Bolts.
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I read what you said, now read what I said. Get a shield. I don't care about your weight problems. I would like to wear plate armor as an archer without accuracy penalty, but that's not how it is. Deal with you class shortcomings instead of crying for a nerf of another that has been balanced over multiple nerfings.
Also, you're argument is that when people are on top of a high wall, they all seem to use RANGED weapons for some unfathomable reason. Well blow me down! Really? They can't engage in melee so they are using arrows?
Try playing on a Battle server if you can't handle the fact that RANGED will be used from castle walls in Siege :rolleyes:
And as Tears_of_Destiny pointed out, bolts and arrows are two different things, yet you ask for an archer nerf? I take it you have a xbow sidearm then?
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I read what you said, now read what I said. Get a shield. I don't care about your weight problems. I would like to wear plate armor as an archer without accuracy penalty, but that's not how it is. Deal with you class shortcomings instead of crying for a nerf of another that has been balanced over multiple nerfings.
Also, you're argument is that when people are on top of a high wall, they all seem to use RANGED weapons for some unfathomable reason. Well blow me down! Really? They can't engage in melee so they are using arrows?
Try playing on a Battle server if you can't handle the fact that RANGED will be used from castle walls in Siege :rolleyes:
And as Tears_of_Destiny pointed out, bolts and arrows are two different things, yet you ask for an archer nerf? I take it you have a xbow sidearm then?
You seriously didn't read any posts before these last few, huh?
Respond to me when you do. Until then, no, I do not carry a crossbow and any Fallen will verify that. The weight penalty for a shield isn't worth it.
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You don't have to be a 1h user to get a shield, you know. The whole game engine is balanced around troops having either a ranged weapon, either a shield. If you have neither, don't be surprised to be raped by arrows occasionally. Just get 2 shield skill, a plain board shield, and that should be enough in most cases. And the weight is not that bad.
I do admit there's an ungodly amount of missiles flying around, but from what I've read on this forum, it should be partially fixed soon.
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So...you're solution is for EVERYONE to be a shielder? Ya...that really works. My main build is a tank polearm. He has enough weight with the armor and weaponry. A shield is not going to do my speed any good.
I think the point being made was that one shouldn't expect to survive against an archer without a shield. Think about it logically. One person can hit the other guy from far away and the other guy has no defense. How is he supposed to win?
1 on 1, most archers will lose to most 2 handers because it takes several shots to take most 2 handers down (4-8 I'd estimate) and the 2 hander usually only needs to get 1 or 2 hits in. This is assuming the players have similar skill levels.
In groups, a pure archer group vs. a pure infantry group can go either way. If the infantry have only 2 handers, it's likely that the archers can overcome by simply weakening the enemy significantly before they reach combat. It's also likely possible that the 2 handers will cut right through the archers (especially the ones that try to shoot last minute). Assuming equal skill in melee, I'd say archers win that. Now, if the inf are all shielders, I'd put the win on the infantry because they won't be weakened before the fight and they have faster weapons and better armor in melee. Now if the inf is a nice mix of 2 hander and shield, I'd again put the win on infantry because the shields can cover the 2 handers from the initial volley, and even if they don't, the shielders themselves aren't weakened and they have the advantage in melee (as described I'm the last scenario).
So I don't think you can really boil this down to something as simple as "everyone should have a shield" or "everyone do X" because what needs to be done is different every time.
In my opinion, people who wish to play infantry should specialize in infantry. Not 2 hand, sword and board, or polearm. A versatile infantry player like this, with enough intelligence, could overcome a lot of situations such as "archerspam", and many other things that are complained about.
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I think the point being made was that one shouldn't expect to survive against an archer without a shield. Think about it logically. One person can hit the other guy from far away and the other guy has no defense. How is he supposed to win?
1 on 1, most archers will lose to most 2 handers because it takes several shots to take most 2 handers down (4-8 I'd estimate) and the 2 hander usually only needs to get 1 or 2 hits in. This is assuming the players have similar skill levels.
In groups, a pure archer group vs. a pure infantry group can go either way. If the infantry have only 2 handers, it's likely that the archers can overcome by simply weakening the enemy significantly before they reach combat. It's also likely possible that the 2 handers will cut right through the archers (especially the ones that try to shoot last minute). Assuming equal skill in melee, I'd say archers win that. Now, if the inf are all shielders, I'd put the win on the infantry because they won't be weakened before the fight and they have faster weapons and better armor in melee. Now if the inf is a nice mix of 2 hander and shield, I'd again put the win on infantry because the shields can cover the 2 handers from the initial volley, and even if they don't, the shielders themselves aren't weakened and they have the advantage in melee (as described I'm the last scenario).
So I don't think you can really boil this down to something as simple as "everyone should have a shield" or "everyone do X" because what needs to be done is different every time.
In my opinion, people who wish to play infantry should specialize in infantry. Not 2 hand, sword and board, or polearm. A versatile infantry player like this, with enough intelligence, could overcome a lot of situations such as "archerspam", and many other things that are complained about.
That's the thing dude, this game isn't about Rambos. It's about working as a team. Being a specialist in polearm makes me great at melee, especially against other 2H and Polearm. If I decrease those stats to get a shield, bow, crossbow, and other crap, I am not just as useless as the peasant. No thanks.
Also, I know you people constantly complain about the realism argument but think about this for a second...medieval arrows didn't pierce plate armor unless there were some horrible flaws in it. Even chainmail was proof against arrows except at point blank. As I discussed with someone on IRC tonight, I agree with his statement that if archers don't get nerfed, plate and mail armor should get buffed to make arrow hits inconsequential.
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That's the thing dude, this game isn't about Rambos. It's about working as a team. Being a specialist in polearm makes me great at melee, especially against other 2H and Polearm. If I decrease those stats to get a shield, bow, crossbow, and other crap, I am not just as useless as the peasant. No thanks.
Also, I know you people constantly complain about the realism argument but think about this for a second...medieval arrows didn't pierce plate armor unless there were some horrible flaws in it. Even chainmail was proof against arrows except at point blank. As I discussed with someone on IRC tonight, I agree with his statement that if archers don't get nerfed, plate and mail armor should get buffed to make arrow hits inconsequential.
Well, when you say rambo I immediately think of 1 guy trying to kill a bunch of other guys by himself. I don't see where I brought that up in my post, but I'll respond by saying that if the shield players and the 2hand players worked as a team against archers, I'm confident that they would win. (this was implied in my first post actually).
Secondly, I'm not talking about realism, I'm talking about common sense. Realism doesn't have a place in a game balance arguement, and I never used it. I think you're refering to the point where I said:
I think the point being made was that one shouldn't expect to survive against an archer without a shield. Think about it logically. One per hit the other guy from far away and the other guy has no defense. How is he supposed to win?
To clarify, I meant that if an infantry without a shield beat an archer, it wouldn't make sense to me. How did the infantry win when he had no defense against the archer's ranged attacks? That, to me, seems close to a "rambo" as well.
Edit: Ah, I see where you thought I was talking about rambos, it was:
In my opinion, people who wish to play infantry should specialize in infantry Not 2 hand, sword and board, or polearm. A versatile infantry player like this, with enough intelligence, could overcome a lot of situations such as "archerspam", and many other things that are complained about.
To clarify, I meant if most players who did infantry used what I suggested, they could overcome archerspam and such. Not just one person.
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Limiting the amount of bows won't work in c-rpg because players can choose their own specialty.
Archers have to give up the majority of their melee viability to be effective while crossbow sidearms likely don't. Throwers I think usually give up PS in favor of PT, but they should still be decent in melee with their high strength. I don't think looking to nerf archery AGAIN is the solution here, there are other areas that are better suited to be balanced.
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I don't really experience too many problems when facing ranged folk. There is a large number of projectiles, of course, probably because it's rather easy for hybrid builds to take either an xbow or throwing weapon in addition to their primary weapon. That number of throwers/xbows is added to the number of archers. The total equals alot of shit flying through the air.
I only bemoan the lots of projectile weapons when playing as cavalry, for my horse is big and squishy, and I have to play much more sneakily than i'd like if I desire to get kills. Generally teamwork and intelligence help counter the sharp shit flying through the air, though.
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The reason that people specialized in the middle ages was because, just like today, Rambo is something of stories and not reality.
Sorry man, but you obviously are basing your statement off of some fictional history and reality vs actual reality. The reality is: Soldiers don't "specialize". Not even remotely like you seem to think they did. Hell, most "peasants" knew how to shoot a bow, and use some kind of melee weapon with enough ability in order to prevent injuring themselves while making every attempt to injure the other person. In any hunter-gatherer society and culture, this was just common practice.
Even in modern day military training just about damn near every person is trained to:
Shoot a rifle
Use grenades
Have a passable ability in hand to hand combat.
Period. Even the desk clerks.
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My horse, or rather pincushion now, knows all about coordinated archery fire. Not that it's coordinated really, but whenever they see me all turn and shoot for me :(
[whinewhine]
You are forgetting the Archer-rule...: "Cav goes down first". If I am leading a battle (or at least I try to coordinate the people in my team) I always say "Ranged aim for Cavalry!".
Cavalry is the death for Archers... and Archers are important parts of the team, too.
But I guess you raging idiots never played an archer, huh?
Then Let me tell you: As long as you are not an archery-pro, only 1 of 5 arrows hits and rarely kills. you got around 32 arrows, when you use bodkin-arrows and want to have a Meelee-weapon. So you maybe make around 10 hits and kill with 3 of them. after that the enemy jumps in your face, killing you. And that is with level 30.
In Meelee... hmm yeah you mostly suck. I use a Longsword for it... Sometimes I make Luck-Kills with it... but I am rarely able to defend myself properly. Since I know how to block a bit I can survive around 5 Seconds, hoping for my team-mates to come and help me.
You whine cuz you get hit by arrows the whole time? well... get a shield. a wooden shield costs nothing, does not need any points in shield-skill and holds 3+ arrows before shattering. And I need 4+ arrows to get somebody in heraldic mail with NO Ironflesh down. If you don't believe that we can go to the duelserver and I will show you.
If you don't want to use a shield, then you just get someone from your clan and play TOGETHER! (thats what this game is about... playing together with your team-/clanmates to win.) and you hide behind his shield.
I play on both sides of the medal. I have an archer and I have a 2h-char... my 2h-char has 2 points in shield to wear a goodlooking heraldic shield as a defense against ranged. They are not really problem for me, unless they throw shit. I also try to cover my shieldless clanmates with it.
So please... stop whineraging about archers. You will need them in Strategus to defend your castles. And when the New Weaponslot-system comes there will be no hybrid-2h-crossbowers left.
The only Issue there is Your own psychic issue... you always think about yourself. But there are other people, too. People that can help you. People that you can help. You just have to try it. Thats what clans are there for. To complete each other. You simply have to work as one unit and it will make your "life" easier.
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Can i complain about getting focus fired at?
Change your name or stop playing on "Goretooth". Problem solved. Lol.
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I only hope the rumors of this next patch killing hybrids is true. We will see far fewer people strumming bows knowing that they won't have a polearm/2H/sword & shield to whip out in melee
Yes, 1h melee weapons are useless without a shield therefore the hybrids aswell MUST begone. :lol:
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But I guess you raging idiots never played an archer, huh?
Then Let me tell you: As long as you are not an archery-pro, only 1 of 5 arrows hits and rarely kills. you got around 32 arrows, when you use bodkin-arrows and want to have a Meelee-weapon. So you maybe make around 10 hits and kill with 3 of them. after that the enemy jumps in your face, killing you. And that is with level 30.
This, archer is for me (by far, try it!!) the hardest class to play, and having a longsword or lhsm is not much help when you ve 0-50wpf in melee because just everyone will outspam you if you try to feint.
and this
There isn't an archer issue, honestly. Well, at least to those of us who remember how they used to be. It may seem to be ridiculous when you're running around in a gambeson with no shield and no IF, but that's your mistake.
With a shield or heavy armour, it's fine. The only time it's a real issue is when archers coordinate crossfires, and hey, I don't know about you but I like seeing people coordinate.
let's hope the two slot system fix the xbow and throwing issue.
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Yes, 1h melee weapons are useless without a shield therefore the hybrids aswell MUST begone. :lol:
I and a number of other people who regularly frequent the duel server would disagree. I actually do much better with 1h without a shield, they are the fastest weapons in the game and if you are even just decent in manual blocking you can face-hug attack for full damage while the person you are fighting has no room to maneuver and often either whiff or do minor damage when you are that close to them. A lot of people regularly do just as well 1her no shield as with any other class. This hybrid nerf is long overdue and is really not a severe harm. If you can't manual block then use a khergit with 1 stack of normal arrows and a nice spammable elegant poleaxe.
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I and a number of other people who regularly frequent the duel server would disagree. I actually do much better with 1h without a shield, they are the fastest weapons in the game and if you are even just decent in manual blocking you can face-hug attack for full damage while the person you are fighting has no room to maneuver and often either whiff or do minor damage when you are that close to them. A lot of people regularly do just as well 1her no shield as with any other class. This hybrid nerf is long overdue and is really not a severe harm. If you can't manual block then use a khergit with 1 stack of normal arrows and a nice spammable elegant poleaxe.
YOU! Stop talking! Go and retire your char to be an Archer again. You were one of the (if not THE) best archers in this mod, so you have to stick to that. -.-
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Not to burst your bubble... but alot of people use 1h without shield these days. I thought my post oozed sarcasm enough, however, as a defeat I look upon this.
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Yeah, I have to admit, Sieems post was pretty obviously sarcastic. And I have no problem at all that archers/xbowers only have small sidearms, which is how it should be.
Oh, and the xbow/shielder hybrids wont be gone, they will just have to use Crossbow and not Heavy/sniper crossbow. Which I think is just fine. And hell, if they want to ever go sniper (like they defend a castle or whatever) then they can be just like a proper crossbower and play without a shield. Anyone who has seen Nemeth lately knows how awesome that can be sometimes :D