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Strategus => Strategus General Discussion => Topic started by: Meow on November 23, 2012, 09:21:41 pm

Title: Common sense
Post by: Meow on November 23, 2012, 09:21:41 pm
Although there are no set strat rules, the common sense rule obviously also goes for this.
If people use ladders and stuff to basically bug flags they can expect to be banned for a while and by a while I mean at least the time it takes to randomly respawn you on the eu side without troops.

Rule of thumb: If it is obvious exploiting as in an unfair advantage for your team and ruining the fun of everyone else - don't do it.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Latvian on November 23, 2012, 09:26:15 pm
Quote from: Meow on November 23, 2012, 09:21:41 pm
Although there are no set strat rules, the common sense rule obviously also goes for this.
If people use ladders and stuff to basically bug flags they can expect to be banned for a while and by a while I mean at least the time it takes to randomly respawn you on the eu side without troops.

Rule of thumb: If it is obvious exploiting as in an unfair advantage for your team and ruining the fun of everyone else - don't do it.
its not like it is happening all the time
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Arathian on November 24, 2012, 05:56:12 am
Quote from: Latvian_Knight on November 23, 2012, 09:26:15 pm
its not like it is happening all the time

I *could* think of a fairly recent example...
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Malaclypse on November 24, 2012, 07:09:47 am
My only hope is that at some point a legitimate way to build a garrison or fort is afforded us (think like, sallying the wagons style, small spiked barricades).
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: _RXN_ on November 25, 2012, 05:59:35 pm
Yeah, let's talk about common sense, right Soa, Fallen, Hre, Wolves? :)

Today's field battle http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesparticipated#!?page=battledetail&id=1572

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Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Lepintoi on November 25, 2012, 06:20:20 pm
I was not trying to exploit, i still had a ladder equipped with a 2h weapon, but then the 2h ran out and i spawned with a ladder, i immediately threw it in sheer panic...
My apologies if this was misconstrued as exploit or bugabuse.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: _RXN_ on November 25, 2012, 06:47:57 pm
I forgot to mention, as you can see on the screenshots, it was at the beginning of the battle, before the attackers spawned.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Lepintoi on November 25, 2012, 06:49:08 pm
we didnt place it on the flags...

Make pikewalls u can buy, against cavalry like in total war.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: _RXN_ on November 25, 2012, 06:52:46 pm
Sure "not", you placed it on the trees.  :P
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Haboe on November 27, 2012, 05:31:47 pm
Quote from: _RXN_ on November 25, 2012, 06:52:46 pm
Sure "not", you placed it on the trees.  :P

Its a pretty valid tactic to put stuff on the ground to make it harder for enemy cav to reach you... Ladders placed around flag area is not cheating at all, placing it ON the flags might be considered cheating.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: _RXN_ on November 27, 2012, 05:33:59 pm
Haboe, it was sarcasm. ;)
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Haboe on November 27, 2012, 07:17:45 pm
The post with all the pictures was sarcasm?
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Silicium on November 27, 2012, 08:37:53 pm
Quote from: _RXN_ on November 25, 2012, 05:59:35 pm
Yeah, let's talk about common sense, right Soa, Fallen, Hre, Wolves? :)

Today's field battle
(click to show/hide)
Just pictures you toke of them walking with swags.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Araxiel on November 29, 2012, 07:08:44 pm
You can use ladders to interrupt cavalry charges, right?
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on November 29, 2012, 08:56:30 pm
Is it acceptable to use ladders as makeshift fortifications in field battles? Is it acceptable to stack those ladders on top of one another?

It seems to me that if you need fortifications, buy some damn siege shields. It's cheesy as fuck to have a bunch of ladders laying on the ground to fuck up both mounted and unmounted troops' movements and to assist in arrow blocking.

If these things are not acceptable, who do you report these violations to? Is it a different person for NA players and EU players? If that person does not take action on the rule violators, what is the proper course of action?

I HAVE SO MANY QUESTIONS.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Lt_Anders on November 29, 2012, 10:34:52 pm
Ladders make the best defensive fort as Siege shields are weak as hell and don't really stop cav. Con sites work, but they are expensive.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on November 29, 2012, 11:09:42 pm
I do not debate that point, anders. My question is whether or not the wonderfully effective ladder-forts are indeed legal. It just seems to me that using ladders in such a fashion is obviously not the intent of such things. Ladders are obviously intended for assaults on castles/towns.

The OP of this thread said that there are no set-in-stone strategus rules, but common sense should be used. To me, this means that laying ladders on top of rocks, against trees, against one another, or even just sitting on the ground violates the common sense rule.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Hobb on November 30, 2012, 12:03:19 am
Ladders should be way more expensive or an actual fort building mechanism or cosntructable object needs to added, i think everyone can agree the ladder spam looks like shit and lags the servers.

Effective, but really lame .. You can throw 100 ladders for the cost of 1 large seige tower, and seige towers dont stop cav
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Lizard_man on November 30, 2012, 02:18:53 pm
Quote from: Sandersson Jankins on November 29, 2012, 08:56:30 pm
It seems to me that if you need fortifications, buy some damn siege shields.

This would be a viable tactic, and people probably wouldn't resort to using ladders instead. It's just that there's a limitation on siege shields, what is it, 6? And for the moment, there's nothing such as stakes that we can use against cavalry...
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on November 30, 2012, 02:50:31 pm
I always thought it was pretty ridiculous that you could buy 4 ladders and essentially make the enemy cavalry useless.

Would be nice if there was something like "wooden spikes" you can pound into the ground to stop cavalry, I'm assuming they wouldn't be nearly as long as a large or siege ladder...

Having 50 foot long pieces of equipment that make cavalry come to a complete stop is pretty cheesy, but it's strat so I'd expect nothing less than people doing everything they can to win.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Blackzilla on November 30, 2012, 05:10:38 pm
Our ladders on the ground do not stop cav, it just stops them from couching and slows them down.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: kinngrimm on November 30, 2012, 06:32:28 pm
Quote from: _RXN_ on November 25, 2012, 05:59:35 pm
(click to show/hide)
The last information i have on ladders is, that you are not allowed to put them directly onto the flags.
The command was given to leave enough space between flags and spawn flags, so that spawn flags can still be deactivated.
With the first ladders which where put down i explicitly pointed where to put and what into direction and therefor the flags were not scratched.

If ladders aren't allowed then also f.e. Siege Towers shouldn't. How many siegetowers really have been used in history for open field battles, as far as i know those have been constructed directly at the castle or place which had been sieged.
Siege shields have a restriction, which makes them pretty mute in terms of protection alone for securing the own spawn position.
Perhaps we need spike walls which could be built from construction materials and then siege ladders and siege towers would be deactivated in open field battles.

I would like to have a ruling on ladders in open field battles as also for Siege Towers, if at all or within which limits they may be used. As mentioned before the only thing about siege ladders i am aware of so far what admins don't want is, that these shouldn't be put directly onto the flags, so that attackers wouldn't be able to put those down.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on November 30, 2012, 06:45:00 pm
Quote from: DoD_Blackzilla on November 30, 2012, 05:10:38 pm
Our ladders on the ground do not stop cav, it just stops them from couching and slows them down.

It renders them 99% useless if you are inside a formation of ladders on the ground...that's why people do it.  A square formation of siege ladders around your infantry is better anti-cav defense than using your own cavalry, pikemen, or siege shields.  You basically come to a complete stop if you ride over a ladder.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: BaleOhay on November 30, 2012, 07:13:05 pm
I agree they  are against the spirit of their intended purpose.. Pile them up and they make great archer nests to shoot over shields and they do a great job of blocking incoming arrows. we mentioned this during a recent fight and were told to shut up and stop complaining. would be nice for an official ruling.

defense already has enough advantages. they do not need this one
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Blackzilla on November 30, 2012, 07:19:04 pm
You were told to shut up and quit complaining because there are no rules against ladders on the ground that make a defensive perimeter. For cav, get infantry to break the ladders, when they're broken cav charge in. Until they implement real barriers and protection from cav, ladder perimeters or forts should be a viable tactic. I won't complain if any of you use it against me.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: BaleOhay on November 30, 2012, 07:29:47 pm
Do not want to get off topic and into an argument over it.Looking for an official response to them .we did brake ladders which led to floating or sky ladders that continued to be used. That was our main complaint. as far as i knew the floating sky ladders were not allowed

regardless I stated my case above. Defense has plenty of advantages they do not need one that nullified cav and blocks arrows... can they even be broken by range?
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on November 30, 2012, 08:08:50 pm
Ladders being thrown on the ground as hyper-gay defensive equipment is retarded and evil. There is no way any reasonable human being could ever see this as being a valid defensive tactic. I have no idea what the original topic was about, and I don't care now that ladders have been mentioned.

Ladders shouldn't be able to work at a certain angle. They're for climbing up shit, not creating fortifications and altering what should be a fun ebb and flow to a field battle.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Hobb on November 30, 2012, 08:30:35 pm
Quote from: DoD_Blackzilla on November 30, 2012, 05:10:38 pm
Our ladders on the ground do not stop cav, it just stops them from couching and slows them down.

It slows cav down to to almost a complete stop taking away there biggest advantage. Now you need mayb 1-2 pikers to lock your entire spawn down because they get way longer to react.

Every big field battle results in the defense laddering the ground around their spawn, by their archers, and on their blindsides.. They then proceed to camp the spawn and average 1.5:1 kd or more with minimal strategy until the attacker spawn is nearly double the defense.

Not exactly my idea of a good strategy game. Shit defense tactics that results in an easy win every time for them, and it is mostly because of insta-defense from ladders. Although the attacking sidesi have been in against heavy ladder use have been very poorly managed and none of them forward spawned, however if attacker cav cant kill enemy archers or infantry because of 15 gold ladders (And in every battle all i could was cav v cav against enemies trying to couch spawn) the defense will still roll a much higher KD and just push out when their timers are 30+ and destroy the forward spawns.

Im not saying defense shouldnt be able to better their positions, but ladders are way to OP for the cost, and they make the gameplay shit.

I feel that as of right now, open field shiny v shiny is the worst situation for attackers. I would list them from easiest to hardest:

Village-town-castle-open field

Now obviously some castles are OP, but with the exception of wooden castles, every castle can be shot up and many are just terrible. Once the offense gets a breach point, the KD ratios instantly turn in favor of offense, and taking back walls that attackers have breached is a death trap. I wish there was data around to show the stats of each "even" geared castle battle. I know in the 7 or so hospi/tkov bulugha seiges last strat the results were always within 200 tickets when they could breach walls. (1500 vs castle) we would start out doing very strong, walls get breached it turns in their favor.

The open field battles since the new timer? Always huge slaughters in favor of defense. I feel cav and archers are the main factors for this, and they are ineffective for attackers. Defense cav rack up tons of spawn kills/ open field behind the back NA 1 style lancings. Destroy archers as well. Offensive cav cant touch these defensive ladder forts->archers->infantry

 Unlike every type of seige, offense cant do any flanking and defense gets to see their every move. So with infantry being equal, a clash of attacker infantry vs defender infantry results in a 1:1 KD with equal numbers. Offense never clashes with equal numbers because of ranged/cav, the result: defense gets a much betterKD then 1:1 and that coupled with the constant cav spawn rape, defense is flirting with a 2:1 which with the spawn timers is auto win for defense.

There are no cav in castles and once the walls are breached archers are way less effective for defense. Not mention you can raid a castle.

I guess what im getting at is ladders ruin open field battles because of how they destroy 1 class for 1 side, a class designed for open field. If we are going to allow this, they need to way more expensive. To me strat battles should be won with strategy, something that requires more then spawn camping with ladders until your opponent spawns twice as slow as you.


Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on November 30, 2012, 09:02:05 pm
Agreed Hobb.  Ladders as anti-cav tactics are way too cheap for how effective they are.  Not to mention how long they are on the battle field (you could easily fit 50 people inside a square of 4 siege ladders).

I doubt it's possible, but a ladder that has both points resting on the ground should disappear.  Cavalry are really only useful in open field battles, and they are effectively useless if the enemy was smart and brought some ladders along. 
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on November 30, 2012, 09:07:46 pm
Quote from: DoD_Blackzilla on November 30, 2012, 07:19:04 pm
You were told to shut up and quit complaining because there are no rules against ladders on the ground that make a defensive perimeter. For cav, get infantry to break the ladders, when they're broken cav charge in. Until they implement real barriers and protection from cav, ladder perimeters or forts should be a viable tactic. I won't complain if any of you use it against me.

I'm not in the know about this specific situation; but don't go after other people on this, man. If you have hostility you need to get out, direct it toward me. I was the one that posed the question.

I'd like you to note that I did not say "GUYS HERO PARTY IS THROWING LADDERS DOWN AND WINNING MAKE THEM STOP THEYRE TOO GOOD I WANT TO WIN TOO." I've seen multiple factions do this, and it's been pretty high on the bundle of sticksry scale each time. Of course there's no rule against ladders on the ground; the OP said there were no official rules for strat. I'd really just like an authority figure to weigh in on this. It seems that most folks agree that it's goddang silly, but nothing can be done besides waving our dicks at one another unless someone with a banstick comes in the thread and tells us what's up.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on November 30, 2012, 09:13:00 pm
As long as it's in the game, people are going to use it.   You're at a disadvantage if you don't.  It's unfortunate, but that's pretty much always been the way strategus is (both in game and the overview/website).
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: BaleOhay on November 30, 2012, 11:16:53 pm
I do not think raising the ladder price is the answer. It would not stop the problem. Even if ladders were 1000 per defense would use them because losing a fight costs more in troops and equipment.  It would just make sieges cost insane amounts of cash.

Just be easier for devs to step in and say ladders can not be used as cav defense. Only allowed to be used to scale walls and buildings (siege/fief defense and attack). The end.

As it is right now they make a difficult situation for attackers much harder. Add in the time clock and defense is handed the Easy mode button. Given similar gear and merc quality defense will generally win every time. Getting proven every day lately.

Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Blackzilla on November 30, 2012, 11:40:52 pm
Quote from: Sandersson Jankins on November 30, 2012, 09:07:46 pm
I'm not in the know about this specific situation; but don't go after other people on this, man. If you have hostility you need to get out, direct it toward me. I was the one that posed the question.

I'd like you to note that I did not say "GUYS HERO PARTY IS THROWING LADDERS DOWN AND WINNING MAKE THEM STOP THEYRE TOO GOOD I WANT TO WIN TOO." I've seen multiple factions do this, and it's been pretty high on the bundle of sticksry scale each time. Of course there's no rule against ladders on the ground; the OP said there were no official rules for strat. I'd really just like an authority figure to weigh in on this. It seems that most folks agree that it's goddang silly, but nothing can be done besides waving our dicks at one another unless someone with a banstick comes in the thread and tells us what's up.
I'm not trying to be hostile towards Bale, I like him and hopefully he knows that. I was just telling him why they told him to shut up and quit complaining. Also I never said "Hero Party" I only said " Our " because I was using my faction as an example. Since we have used the ladder perimeter to help protect us from cav. I think it should be kept legal to place ladders on the ground until the devs find a structure that can stop/help defend against cav. Also, this was being done last strat so I do not see why it was brought up now as a question Sandy. Unless this is your first time seeing/hearing about it.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: BaleOhay on November 30, 2012, 11:52:49 pm
we are good zilla. you did come off a little hostile but I understand.


I think the forts benefits have been compounded this iteration of strat due to the increasing respawn timers and and short clock times for fights. Last strat I saw it used but not to the degree that it is now that everyone knows just what an advantage it provides



It has given the defense to many tools.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on December 01, 2012, 01:08:18 am
Quote from: DoD_Blackzilla on November 30, 2012, 11:40:52 pm
I'm not trying to be hostile towards Bale, I like him and hopefully he knows that. I was just telling him why they told him to shut up and quit complaining. Also I never said "Hero Party" I only said " Our " because I was using my faction as an example. Since we have used the ladder perimeter to help protect us from cav. I think it should be kept legal to place ladders on the ground until the devs find a structure that can stop/help defend against cav. Also, this was being done last strat so I do not see why it was brought up now as a question Sandy. Unless this is your first time seeing/hearing about it.

If there is a magic cheap structure to stop all cavalry perfectly then why would anyone concerned about Strat ever spec into cavalry? Or buy horses? Cavalry is by far the most expensive type of troop to equip on Strategus, and I think it's silly to suggest that they should just be negated by cheap items like ladders. Finally, about your last two sentences; just because something hasn't been caught as being wrong in the past doesn't mean it can't be caught as being wrong in the present.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on December 01, 2012, 01:08:22 am
Quote from: DoD_Blackzilla on November 30, 2012, 11:40:52 pm
I'm not trying to be hostile towards Bale, I like him and hopefully he knows that. I was just telling him why they told him to shut up and quit complaining. Also I never said "Hero Party" I only said " Our " because I was using my faction as an example. Since we have used the ladder perimeter to help protect us from cav. I think it should be kept legal to place ladders on the ground until the devs find a structure that can stop/help defend against cav. Also, this was being done last strat so I do not see why it was brought up now as a question Sandy. Unless this is your first time seeing/hearing about it.

I wasn't active in Strat 1 or 2, I was fairly active in Strat 3, and have been heavily active in Strat 4. I've never seen it happen until the past couple weeks, where it's taken place in just about EVERY field battle I've been in. Not only is it unrealistic (unless you have a gigantic suspension of disbelief and simply imagine that the ladders are some kind of earthen defensive structures), but it seems very gimmicky and cheesy. Not to mention the fact that NA_3's server hardware seems to blow the most massive of donkey cocks, and ladders all over the damn place don't seem to help it out.

Anyway, enlighten me, who was it that told everyone to "shut up and quit complaining"? I've not seen any forum posts about it; maybe I've not looked hard enough.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Malaclypse on December 01, 2012, 01:23:05 am
Make smokebombs destroy siege equipment in one shot yo.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Blackzilla on December 01, 2012, 02:17:36 am
Quote from: Sandersson Jankins on December 01, 2012, 01:08:22 am
I wasn't active in Strat 1 or 2, I was fairly active in Strat 3, and have been heavily active in Strat 4. I've never seen it happen until the past couple weeks, where it's taken place in just about EVERY field battle I've been in. Not only is it unrealistic (unless you have a gigantic suspension of disbelief and simply imagine that the ladders are some kind of earthen defensive structures), but it seems very gimmicky and cheesy. Not to mention the fact that NA_3's server hardware seems to blow the most massive of donkey cocks, and ladders all over the damn place don't seem to help it out.

Anyway, enlighten me, who was it that told everyone to "shut up and quit complaining"? I've not seen any forum posts about it; maybe I've not looked hard enough.
The Shut up and be quiet  happened in game on our battle against FCC.
  In Strat 3 a battle for FCC, when most of its players were playing Starwars, so as a whole the FCC faction was afk. Huey led a small a small gorup of about 120 FCC troops vs 500 hospitallers. Since hosp had lots of cav we decided to throw ladders on the ground to protect us. Now, it was no where near the effectiveness of the ladders Hero party used against FCC and NH, but it was used. Another example was when Chaos was having a battle and we set up a ladder perimete to provide protection. Once again it was not as effective. I also know its cheesy, but when you're a 15-20 man faction fighting multiple wars (don't think we are at war with NH, only border violation) you need to save troops, those ladder forts save us troops.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on December 01, 2012, 02:24:25 am
Quote from: DoD_Blackzilla on December 01, 2012, 02:17:36 am
The Shut up and quiet complaining happened in game on our battle against FCC. In Strat 3 a battle for FCC, when most of its players were playing Starwars. Huey led a small battle of about 120 brave FCC men vs 500 (hospitallers? cant remember). Since hosp had lots of cav we decided to throw ladders on the ground to protect us. Now, it was no where near the effectiveness of the ladders Hero party used against FCC and NH, but it was used. Another example was when Chaos was having one of it's final battles, we set up a ladder perimeter, primary to was ladders, but also to provide protection. Once again it was not as effective. I aslo know its cheesy, but when your a 15-20 man faction fighting multiple wars (dont think we are at war with NH, only border violation) you need to save troops, those ladder forts save us troops.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Blackzilla on December 01, 2012, 02:31:47 am
Quote from: Daruvian on December 01, 2012, 02:24:25 am
(click to show/hide)
Is it really that bad! lol I'm typing with one hand! Also, holy shit I dont think I've ever messed up a post that bad before, you saved me. It's fixed now.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on December 01, 2012, 02:43:58 am
Quote from: DoD_Blackzilla on December 01, 2012, 02:17:36 am
The Shut up and be quiet  happened in game on our battle against FCC.
  In Strat 3 a battle for FCC, when most of its players were playing Starwars, so as a whole the FCC faction was afk. Huey led a small a small gorup of about 120 FCC troops vs 500 hospitallers. Since hosp had lots of cav we decided to throw ladders on the ground to protect us. Now, it was no where near the effectiveness of the ladders Hero party used against FCC and NH, but it was used. Another example was when Chaos was having a battle and we set up a ladder perimete to provide protection. Once again it was not as effective. I also know its cheesy, but when you're a 15-20 man faction fighting multiple wars (don't think we are at war with NH, only border violation) you need to save troops, those ladder forts save us troops.

Alright, thanks for clearing that up. I'm certainly not trying to insinuate that you guys are winning your battles because of ladders on the ground. All of the battles I've been in against you guys have had rather low-quality mercs on the side fighting you, while hero party has some of the best players in the mod. The tactics used by the opposition have also been rather lackluster as well. It's just a thing that makes me say to myself "What the fuck, that's gayer than I am." I don't say that much.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Jarlek on December 01, 2012, 05:57:46 am
Not gonna argue about wether or not using ladders as barriers should be allowed, but: if the main problem you have when facing a defending force is that they put ladders around their flags/main infantry group and then just waiting for you to charge, then I got a suggestion for you.

1. At the start of the battle, wait to find out where the defenders camp up.

2. Then find somewhere close to your spawn that has a good view to the enemy main formation. Bonus if it's also higher altitued. Don't mind too much about the distance, it just needs to be easily defended by you/hard to attack for the attackers.

3. Make your own ladderfort around it. Place archers and pikemen inside, covering all the essential directions. Dedicate 1 pikeman/hoplite to watch the back and one for each flank. Make sure they can speak over ts.

4. Build a weapon rack inside the fort

4.5 If your chosen location is not close to your spawn (there's a big ass mountain between the spawns or something), then build a forward base close to it.

5. Now build a catapult. Yes, a motherfucking catapult. Your problem is that the defenders get a good tight defensive position. Best way to deal with a tight defensive positon? Artillery. You now have artillery.

6. Start bombarding their defensive area. The defenders will either have to relocate (away from their spawn) or try to destroy the catapult.

7. If they charge, your guys should have the upper hand; if they relocate, their spawn is now free, making it possible to capture. Use tactics according to the terrain and enemy actions.

8. DEFEND THE CATAPULT AND DON'T MOVE IT. You made it so they can't make their little superfort at spawn. Keep it aimed there. If they move their fort to another place which you can't fire at, leave it. Go for their flags instead, that should give them something to worry about. Always leave some ranged and some pike/hoplites (with 1 or 2 maulers/shieldbreakers) to defend the catapult.

9. ???

10. Profit! Or fiery catapult death on your enemies. Same thing.

Needless to say, you get +10 to badass for killing enemies with a catapult.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Segd on December 01, 2012, 06:24:20 am
Quote from: Zapper on December 01, 2012, 05:57:46 am
As a def:
1 Evade cata's shoots
2 Wait till the time runs out
3 ...
4 Profit!   :wink:
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Blackzilla on December 01, 2012, 06:24:33 am
Quote from: Zapper on December 01, 2012, 05:57:46 am
Not gonna argue about wether or not using ladders as barriers should be allowed, but: if the main problem you have when facing a defending force is that they put ladders around their flags/main infantry group and then just waiting for you to charge, then I got a suggestion for you.

1. At the start of the battle, wait to find out where the defenders camp up.

2. Then find somewhere close to your spawn that has a good view to the enemy main formation. Bonus if it's also higher altitued. Don't mind too much about the distance, it just needs to be easily defended by you/hard to attack for the attackers.

3. Make your own ladderfort around it. Place archers and pikemen inside, covering all the essential directions. Dedicate 1 pikeman/hoplite to watch the back and one for each flank. Make sure they can speak over ts.

4. Build a weapon rack inside the fort

4.5 If your chosen location is not close to your spawn (there's a big ass mountain between the spawns or something), then build a forward base close to it.

5. Now build a catapult. Yes, a motherfucking catapult. Your problem is that the defenders get a good tight defensive position. Best way to deal with a tight defensive positon? Artillery. You now have artillery.

6. Start bombarding their defensive area. The defenders will either have to relocate (away from their spawn) or try to destroy the catapult.

7. If they charge, your guys should have the upper hand; if they relocate, their spawn is now free, making it possible to capture. Use tactics according to the terrain and enemy actions.

8. DEFEND THE CATAPULT AND DON'T MOVE IT. You made it so they can't make their little superfort at spawn. Keep it aimed there. If they move their fort to another place which you can't fire at, leave it. Go for their flags instead, that should give them something to worry about. Always leave some ranged and some pike/hoplites (with 1 or 2 maulers/shieldbreakers) to defend the catapult.

9. ???

10. Profit! Or fiery catapult death on your enemies. Same thing.

Needless to say, you get +10 to badass for killing enemies with a catapult.
NH tried to do that, they built a weapon rack and went for a forward spawn, but hero party left the comfortable ladder fort and destroyed it with minimal losses.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: kinngrimm on December 01, 2012, 06:32:24 am
Quote from: Daruvian on December 01, 2012, 01:08:18 am
If there is a magic cheap structure to stop all cavalry perfectly then why would anyone concerned about Strat ever spec into cavalry? Or buy horses? Cavalry is by far the most expensive type of troop to equip on Strategus, and I think it's silly to suggest that they should just be negated by cheap items like ladders. Finally, about your last two sentences; just because something hasn't been caught as being wrong in the past doesn't mean it can't be caught as being wrong in the present.
Agreed on cheap and easy, but as Zapper mentioned there are ways around that too. Securing your own forward spawn, having a good arcehry and perhaps even catapult position to target tight formations, by that then provoking the defender into changing positions.
I would like to see that you would be able to built spike defenses out of construction materials, like 1 c-site + 5 materials, those perhaps maximum length of a small ladder, but huge amount of hitpoints . They are fairly easy to spot and when you would build a couple of those would be able to protect an area effectivly. As they are easy to spot, catapults could then be used effectivly against them in opposite to ladders on the ground. With such spike walls but as with siege shields there should be a maximum you would be able to build.

It is not about blaming who uses laddering atm, as most of us did or still will do as long there is no ruling.
Everything what you use aslong it is not game breaking it can be done further. Now that but depends on point of view here, aslong you don't put ladders directly on the flags, they really are just a fortification and cavalary will notice where they are and if those cav players communicate they can just easily avoid those ladders till at some point one site got close enough to destroy those ladders. Till then cav cant easily spawn kill or easily lance certain positions, those positions need to be conquered or handled by ranged and infantry and there is by default nothing wrong with that.
Also who says attackers should have higher k/d anyways, they are the invaders, the aggressors, the once who are in uncertain foreign territory. The advantage of attackers will always be, they came to a time often not expected by the defenders, by that often they have better or more balanced equipment. The defender should have the terrain bonus(which often through random maps doesn't work out too).
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Hobb on December 01, 2012, 09:10:50 am
catapults would be cool if they could break more then 1 ladder at a time.... good luck with that
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on December 01, 2012, 10:36:20 am
Quote from: Hobb on December 01, 2012, 09:10:50 am
catapults would be cool if they could break more then 1 ladder at a time.... good luck with that

I think the point of the whole catapult thing is to force the defenders away from their fortifications. Maybe I'm a jackass on that topic, though.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Gingerpussy on December 01, 2012, 11:12:02 am
laying ladder to prevent beeing runed down from Cav is a legit and good tactic.

If you have a army and they are carrying ladders surely they would have tosed those on the field in some mather for protection ??

Now carrying to many ladders slow you down so much in cRPG so there is still some balance. The thing is that the second you or someone throw it over the flags then it is a exploit.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: _RXN_ on December 01, 2012, 12:49:55 pm
Quote
laying ladder to prevent beeing runed down from Cav is a legit
While it's not pointed somewhere in Rules, it's not legit, it's just your thoughts that it's legit.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Segd on December 01, 2012, 03:42:33 pm
Quote from: _RXN_ on December 01, 2012, 12:49:55 pm
While it's not pointed somewhere in Rules, it's not legit, it's just your thoughts that it's legit.
Jumping is not in the rules too. Ban jumpers!

"Everything which is not forbidden by the law is permitted" (c) some smart medieval guy
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: _RXN_ on December 01, 2012, 04:12:20 pm
Read careful the topic title, it's not about smart medieval guys, it's about common sense. I can throw 200 ladders on the ground of battlefield so noone can move at all, and by your logic it's permitted and legit, don't make me laugh man. ;)
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Butan on December 01, 2012, 06:00:12 pm
Quote from: _RXN_ on December 01, 2012, 04:12:20 pm
Read careful the topic title, it's not about smart medieval guys, it's about common sense. I can throw 200 ladders on the ground of battlefield so noone can move at all, and by your logic it's permitted and legit, don't make me laugh man. ;)

You make a point, but putting 200 ladders on the ground would require time and players, during which time the other team could rape you; to build a good ladder "fort" is like building a forward spawn or a siege tower, its less "realistic" but it doesnt give a so big advantage when you look at how much it cost per ladder and how much time/workload.

It looks stupid, but aint really forbidden.


Using it to bug flags is the only thing that looks stupid AND is stupid and is already forbidden so its cool :D
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Blackzilla on December 01, 2012, 06:59:57 pm
Quote from: _RXN_ on December 01, 2012, 04:12:20 pm
Read careful the topic title, it's not about smart medieval guys, it's about common sense. I can throw 200 ladders on the ground of battlefield so noone can move at all, and by your logic it's permitted and legit, don't make me laugh man. ;)
There is a limit to the amount of ladders you can throw.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: BaleOhay on December 01, 2012, 07:14:04 pm
defense can have a reliable ladder fort in place by the time attackers spawn and walk across the field. a Pretty solid one can be done in less than a minute with ten guys who spawn in with them.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Tydeus on December 01, 2012, 07:48:30 pm
Posting this for BADPLAYER since he is muted and overall, I agree with him on this subject.
Quote from: BADPLAYER
People are overstating the effectiveness of ladders in strategus against cavalry, i'd say the only thing they really do is stop you couching people but now couches do less damage than stabs so it's not a big deal. I really think it is more of a skill problem than a game mechanics problem since I have no problem against people defending with ladders on the ground or without, no offense Hobb but your gameplay as cavalry is backstabbing people on a courser so i'm not surprised you do bad vs people defending on hills in open plains.

Try instead of just trying to lance people randomly in Strategus, charge in when your infantry does and then the enemy is distracted and doesn't expect you, then you can bump the entire enemy lines without getting stopped pretty frequently which is a huge boost for your team, I didn't see any cavalry on enemy team doing that in our battles which is a big reason why I think your cavalry all did shit. At the times when your team isn't charging relegate yourself to spawn defense and killing enemy cavalry (which is almost entirely what I did in Strategus 2 as cavalry when the spawn points were capturable even with players near and I thought it was fine). Considering in the field battles that have been against us we have capped the enemy spawn twice and come very close to it another 2 times, if the cavalry actually played spawn defense well those wouldn't of happened.

I'm not trying to make this post "i'm better at cav than you and thats why you're doing bad when i'm not" but hey like I said I do fine against people camping on hills with ladders, and so does every other cav whom I consider good.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Jarlek on December 01, 2012, 07:49:57 pm
Quote from: DoD_Blackzilla on December 01, 2012, 06:24:33 am
NH tried to do that, they built a weapon rack and went for a forward spawn, but hero party left the comfortable ladder fort and destroyed it with minimal losses.
So Hero party left their ladder fort and then went and destroyed the forward spawn? With minimal losses? I'm sorry, but that just means Hero Party deserves to win.

Look. The main point by making the catapult/forward base was to draw the enemy out. It worked, but if you then lose the following fight and the enemy destroys your catapult/base, then it's just good tactics/playing by the defenders. Congratulate them on a well made counter-charge.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Blackzilla on December 01, 2012, 07:54:07 pm
Quote from: Tydeus on December 01, 2012, 07:48:30 pm
Posting this for BADPLAYER since he is muted and overall, I agree with him on this subject.
BADPLAYER: http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesparticipated#!?page=battleroster&id=1613 (http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesparticipated#!?page=battleroster&id=1613)
BADPLAYER: that was me against a ladder defense
BADPLAYER: 82-25 only "cav ruined"


Quote from: Zapper on December 01, 2012, 07:49:57 pm
So Hero party left their ladder fort and then went and destroyed the forward spawn? With minimal losses? I'm sorry, but that just means Hero Party deserves to win.

Look. The main point by making the catapult/forward base was to draw the enemy out. It worked, but if you then lose the following fight and the enemy destroys your catapult/base, then it's just good tactics/playing by the defenders. Congratulate them on a well made counter-charge.

Also we had a battle against them without a Ladder fort or construction sites and still dominated with that 2:1 KD. http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesparticipated#!?page=battledetail&id=1620 (http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesparticipated#!?page=battledetail&id=1620)
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Tydeus on December 01, 2012, 09:20:01 pm
Quote from: DoD_Blackzilla on December 01, 2012, 07:54:07 pm
Also we had a battle against them without a Ladder fort or construction sites and still dominated with that 2:1 KD. http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesparticipated#!?page=battledetail&id=1620 (http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesparticipated#!?page=battledetail&id=1620)
Victory because of Commander Tydeus, obviously.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on December 01, 2012, 09:26:17 pm
I can agree that Hero Party's victories have to do only very slightly with their usage of ladders. It's no secret that they have the best damn players around, and it seems their enemies aren't that concerned with hiring only skilled players. I shit my pants whenever I see Tydeus or Smoothrich in battle, and almost never emerge victorious against them.

Basically, LADDERS BE RUININ' MY IMMERSION, YO.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Hobb on December 01, 2012, 11:48:21 pm
Quote from: Tydeus on December 01, 2012, 07:48:30 pm
Posting this for BADPLAYER since he is muted and overall, I agree with him on this subject.

i have personally done fine as attackers in the few hero party battles if that is what you are referring to. I had a score similar to anyone else, I just dont get the free couch kills that defense cav get. Most kills I would get came from enemy cav, and most my points from killing horses.

I think you make the mistake of thinking these 2 or 3 battles have formed my opinion on ladders, when you guys dont throw near as many ladders as some of the other factions do. (specifally on EU) Furthermore, the battles have been really fun, the cav v cav dogfights are always the best part of strat imo. It is from a balance stand point that I feel ladders spam is OP. I have been in battles for EU where the defense have thrown 30+ ladders on the ground near there spawn, taking up a large area with just ladders. You are right about the role of cav for defense however, yet it is very hard to fight unwilling cav when you have rounceys, and even harder to bump for your team when they dont command the battles. All of the NH Fcc attacks have been very poorly executted and underequipped so the results were going to be skewed no matter what. If you dont forward spawn its gg.

And idk where your coming from with my playstlye, I would think I have a pretty agressive playstyle and im certainly not afraid to charge a pike head on.... I havent seen you in battle in months so idk where you get your accusations from.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on December 03, 2012, 05:04:41 am
Lel @ NA developer abusing ladders over flags/spawn; cRPG, you are always amusing.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on December 03, 2012, 05:08:43 am
Quote from: Daruvian on December 03, 2012, 05:04:41 am
Lel @ NA developer abusing ladders over flags/spawn; cRPG, you are always amusing.

Lel @ Hero_Party circlejerk downvoting my post because they know it's true. You guys sure are cool on the internet.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Relit on December 03, 2012, 05:09:21 am
Quote from: Daruvian on December 03, 2012, 05:04:41 am
Lel @ NA developer abusing ladders over flags/spawn; cRPG, you are always amusing.

I wasnt mercing for either side on this battle but watched from observer as HP did this. What the heck? Isnt that blatantly against the rules?
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on December 03, 2012, 05:12:06 am
Quote from: Relit on December 03, 2012, 05:09:21 am
I wasnt mercing for either side on this battle but watched from observer as HP did this. What the heck? Isnt that blatantly against the rules?

I believe you are unfortunately operating under the delusion that Hero Party has to obey rules.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: TheAppleSauceMan on December 03, 2012, 05:13:09 am
Quote from: Daruvian on December 03, 2012, 05:04:41 am
Lel @ NA developer abusing ladders over flags/spawn; cRPG, you are always amusing.

Yeah that was ridiculous. Too bad they're all downvoting you because they don't want this to see the light of day. Oh Hero Party, you exploiting little rule-breakers you.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: oprah_winfrey on December 03, 2012, 05:15:01 am
Yup, we clearly placed ladders to bug our flags, hence why we got our flags capped.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Relit on December 03, 2012, 05:16:24 am
Quote from: oprah_winfrey on December 03, 2012, 05:15:01 am
Yup, we clearly placed ladders to bug our flags, hence why we got our flags capped.

You were obviously trying to do it. Just because you failed at doing so does not make it against the rules.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: BaleOhay on December 03, 2012, 05:16:32 am
we killed all your troops... not capped all your flags.. and yes there were several ladders over your flags at the end of that fight.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Artyem on December 03, 2012, 05:27:10 am
Hello, I'm a long time player of cRPG and I've never really had an issue with any admins or developers, but as you've probably noticed there's been some issue with Shik and Hero Party's tactics.  I don't want to make any big drama thread about how he uses ladders to cover up spawn flags or how they exploit delay and reinforce about 20 hours after the battle is initiated.  However, recent events (exactly what I said in the last sentence) have proven to be rather disappointing.  Hero Party is a clan containing a shit ton of admins, yet they use ladders and siege shields to cover up their flags, which I'm pretty sure is against the rules.


I'd like to see some sort of action taken against them and their silly, silly ways.  If anyone else tried to pull that jazz they'd be banned or at least scolded horrendously for exploitation and abuse.


EDIT:

Good fight though, aside from the ladder placement bullshit you guys are great fighters and worthy opponents.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Duster on December 03, 2012, 05:29:14 am
Alright, let's see the screenshots where there are ladders or siege shields on the flags. Otherwise, blow it out your ass.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Relit on December 03, 2012, 05:32:03 am
There were plenty of admins on the server to witness it. Oh wait.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Duster on December 03, 2012, 05:35:20 am
Quote from: Relit on December 03, 2012, 05:32:03 am
There were plenty of admins on the server to witness it. Oh wait.

Shit post, someone please come up with substance or kill this slander thread
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Artyem on December 03, 2012, 05:48:47 am
Quote from: Duster on December 03, 2012, 05:35:20 am
Shit post, someone please come up with substance or kill this slander thread

It's actually the truth, the only people here objecting to it are Hero Party and their friends.  Aside from that, just about everyone is agreeing that Hero Party is, in fact, abusing ladders and siege equipment to cover up their flags.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Blackzilla on December 03, 2012, 05:50:25 am
You guys know hero party only has 3 admins right(and a dev who does some item balance and shitty bow models)? The rest of us are just clan less guys who fight together, well besides SemenStorm. Now, I wasn't there, but I am sure, and would hope that the people fighting for my faction would not intentionally place ladders on flags. Now, I will believe that they did if you can show me proof. If any ladder went over the flags it was probably while they were wasting gear which wouldn't be a bad idea since it was known we'd lose this battle.

   Also, do you all really think that we'd be allowed to cheat since these admins are in our faction? Do you think chadz would let this small faction cheat? If you're going to continue to accuse of cheating, please get some evidence.

    Darauvian, do you think that you're topshit or something? The reason you're being down-voted is because people disagree with you and you're not contributing to this thread. You're just trying to cause some sort of flame war. I've seen your behavior in-game and now on the forums and you're starting to make me like you less and less. I truly hope you're not the guy named " Adam " that I play Salem with. If so, you're a completely different person in team speak and are starting to be an annoying asshole. I'm not saying this just because of your above statements. I'm saying it because of the way you act on the forums and in-game. To me and I'm sure others, you're giving Frisa a bad name. I've played with them, I know Sandy and enjoy playing with him, you're just ruining their reputation with your top notch attitude. 

Quote from: Artyem on December 03, 2012, 05:48:47 am
It's actually the truth, the only people here objecting to it are Hero Party and their friends.  Aside from that, just about everyone is agreeing that Hero Party is, in fact, abusing ladders and siege equipment to cover up their flags.
Heh, funny you say that, everyone who is at war or has bad relations with another clan will always try to put them down or argue against them. This is typical strat talk, the enemies of Hero party are accusing them of cheating, what a surprise. Hospitaller last strat was accused of cheating for the massive amount of gear they had. Now they had help getting this gear from Duped gear at a Templar village. I guess the point I'm striving for is that, two enemies will never agree or cease to argue with each other on the strat diplomacy pages and will do whatever it takes to take a shot at each other.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on December 03, 2012, 05:54:43 am
Quote from: DoD_Blackzilla on December 03, 2012, 05:50:25 am
You guys know hero party only has 3 admins right(and a dev who does some item balance and shitty bow models)? The rest of us are just clan less guys who fight together, well besides SemenStorm. Now, I wasn't there, but I am sure, and would hope that the people fighting for my faction would not intentionally place ladders on flags. Now, I will believe that they did if you can show me proof. If any ladder went over the flags it was probably while they were wasting gear which wouldn't be a bad idea since it was known we'd lose this battle.

   Also, do you all really think that we'd be allowed to cheat since these admins are in our faction? Do you think chadz would let this small faction cheat? If you're going to continue to accuse of cheating, please get some evidence.

    Darauvian, do you think that you're topshit or something? The reason you're being down-voted is because people disagree with you and you're not contributing to this thread. You're just trying to cause some sort of flame war. I've seen your behavior in-game and now on the forums and you're starting to make me like you less and less. I truly hope you're not the guy named " Adam " that I play Salem with. If so, you're a completely different person in team speak and are starting to be an annoying asshole. I'm not saying this just because of your above statements. I'm saying it because of the way you act on the forums and in-game. To me and I'm sure others, you're giving Frisa a bad name. I've played with them, I know Sandy and enjoy playing with him, you're just ruining their reputation with your top notch attitude. 
Heh, funny you say that, everyone who is at war or has bad relations with another clan will always try to put them down or argue against them. This is typical strat talk, the enemies of Hero party are accusing them of cheating, what a surprise. Hospitaller last strat was accused of cheating for the massive amount of gear they had. Now they had help getting this gear from Duped gear at a Templar village. I guess the point I'm striving for is that, two enemies will never agree or cease to argue with each other on the strat diplomacy pages and will do whatever it takes to take a shot at each other.

Do you actually take the internet this seriously? You must be joking right? There's no way someone can take my comment that seriously. You must have a socioemotional developmental disorder or something if you're seriously this upset.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Blackzilla on December 03, 2012, 05:57:25 am
Quote from: Daruvian on December 03, 2012, 05:54:43 am
Autist.
Were you going for autistic? I just noticed you edited your post.


Quote from: Daruvian on December 03, 2012, 05:54:43 am
Do you actually take the internet this seriously? You must be joking right? There's no way someone can take my comment that seriously. You must have a socioemotional developmental disorder or something if you're seriously this upset.
I'm not upset, just annoyed at the constant accusations that lack proof of a faction on the internet is cheating. I don't take your comment seriously, I just feel it doesn't belong. Do you really think I have to be autistic because I disagree with your actions?
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on December 03, 2012, 05:57:55 am
Quote from: DoD_Blackzilla on December 03, 2012, 05:50:25 am
You guys know hero party only has 3 admins right(and a dev who does some item balance and shitty bow models)? The rest of us are just clan less guys who fight together, well besides SemenStorm. Now, I wasn't there, but I am sure, and would hope that the people fighting for my faction would not intentionally place ladders on flags. Now, I will believe that they did if you can show me proof. If any ladder went over the flags it was probably while they were wasting gear which wouldn't be a bad idea since it was known we'd lose this battle.

   Also, do you all really think that we'd be allowed to cheat since these admins are in our faction? Do you think chadz would let this small faction cheat? If you're going to continue to accuse of cheating, please get some evidence.

    Darauvian, do you think that you're topshit or something? The reason you're being down-voted is because people disagree with you and you're not contributing to this thread. You're just trying to cause some sort of flame war. I've seen your behavior in-game and now on the forums and you're starting to make me like you less and less. I truly hope you're not the guy named " Adam " that I play Salem with. If so, you're a completely different person in team speak and are starting to be an annoying asshole. I'm not saying this just because of your above statements. I'm saying it because of the way you act on the forums and in-game. To me and I'm sure others, you're giving Frisa a bad name. I've played with them, I know Sandy and enjoy playing with him, you're just ruining their reputation with your top notch attitude.

Oh, don't bring his faction into it. The only advantage that would bring you in an argument if I wanted to nerd-herd him to such a degree that I order him via the internet to cease and desist something completely disconnected from the game itself. He's giving his faction no such thing like a bad name, he's got 4 individuals that took the time and effort to back him up in this thread; the only downvoters of his posts have been Hero Party, it seems like. I care little for his reputation with you. I give not one fuck if ladder-fortifications are against the rules, it looks fucking retarded to see a bunch of ladders going through trees and all over the ground, being used as defensive structures. It's bad sportsmanship, in my opinion.


tldr; Don't bring Daruvian's faction into this, because I don't give a fuck about your opinion regarding him as a member of my faction, and neither do the rest of his faction. Call him a my old friendet spergnerd all you want.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on December 03, 2012, 06:03:13 am
Quote from: DoD_Blackzilla on December 03, 2012, 05:50:25 am
You guys know hero party only has 3 admins right(and a dev who does some item balance and shitty bow models)? The rest of us are just clan less guys who fight together, well besides SemenStorm. Now, I wasn't there, but I am sure, and would hope that the people fighting for my faction would not intentionally place ladders on flags. Now, I will believe that they did if you can show me proof. If any ladder went over the flags it was probably while they were wasting gear which wouldn't be a bad idea since it was known we'd lose this battle.

   Also, do you all really think that we'd be allowed to cheat since these admins are in our faction? Do you think chadz would let this small faction cheat? If you're going to continue to accuse of cheating, please get some evidence.

    Darauvian, do you think that you're topshit or something? The reason you're being down-voted is because people disagree with you and you're not contributing to this thread. You're just trying to cause some sort of flame war. I've seen your behavior in-game and now on the forums and you're starting to make me like you less and less. I truly hope you're not the guy named " Adam " that I play Salem with. If so, you're a completely different person in team speak and are starting to be an annoying asshole. I'm not saying this just because of your above statements. I'm saying it because of the way you act on the forums and in-game. To me and I'm sure others, you're giving Frisa a bad name. I've played with them, I know Sandy and enjoy playing with him, you're just ruining their reputation with your top notch attitude. 
Heh, funny you say that, everyone who is at war or has bad relations with another clan will always try to put them down or argue against them. This is typical strat talk, the enemies of Hero party are accusing them of cheating, what a surprise. Hospitaller last strat was accused of cheating for the massive amount of gear they had. Now they had help getting this gear from Duped gear at a Templar village. I guess the point I'm striving for is that, two enemies will never agree or cease to argue with each other on the strat diplomacy pages and will do whatever it takes to take a shot at each other.

I'm a neutral player that joined Strat THIS TIME AROUND. I have no bias towards Hero Party or it's enemies, I am friends with neither parties, and to PROVE THIS FACT:

20 minutes before the battle I am talking about, I was on Hero Party's team. The only reason I switched was because I heard Hero Party attacked one of our caravans, so I didn't want to support someone who was attacking us. I actually applied for Hero Party WITHOUT APPLYING FOR THE OTHER TEAM EARLIER THAT DAY.

How do you explain that away?
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Blackzilla on December 03, 2012, 06:03:51 am
Quote from: Sandersson Jankins on December 03, 2012, 05:57:55 am
Oh, don't bring his faction into it. The only advantage that would bring you in an argument if I wanted to nerd-herd him to such a degree that I order him via the internet to cease and desist something completely disconnected from the game itself. He's giving his faction no such thing like a bad name, he's got 4 individuals that took the time and effort to back him up in this thread; the only downvoters of his posts have been Hero Party, it seems like. I care little for his reputation with you. I give not one fuck if ladder-fortifications are against the rules, it looks fucking retarded to see a bunch of ladders going through trees and all over the ground, being used as defensive structures. It's bad sportsmanship, in my opinion.


tldr; Don't bring Daruvian's faction into this, because I don't give a fuck about your opinion regarding him as a member of my faction, and neither do the rest of his faction. Call him a my old friendet spergnerd all you want.

(click to show/hide)


I understand, but I have actually talked to be people who don't like your faction as much due to the way some of your members act, I wasn't making that part up, but this was all said in TS, so it's not like I can prove it. You also have to remember people always take sides with their faction and will defend their fellow members. Like you and I are doing.

Quote from: Daruvian on December 03, 2012, 06:03:13 am
I'm a neutral player that joined Strat THIS TIME AROUND. I have no bias towards Hero Party or it's enemies, I am friends with neither parties, and to PROVE THIS FACT:

20 minutes before the battle I am talking about, I was on Hero Party's team. The only reason I switched was because I heard Hero Party attacked one of our caravans, so I didn't want to support someone who was attacking us. I actually applied for Hero Party WITHOUT APPLYING FOR THE OTHER TEAM EARLIER THAT DAY.

How do you explain that away?
Do you think I dislike you because of who you are with strat or that you are at war with us? No, I dislike you because of the way you act. I still talk to FCC guys and hang out with BIRD clan. I like Wesley and his fellow Teutonics, hell I even liked to talk to Alpha as he was supplying  hosp last strat to wipe Chaos off the map (my old faction). So basically, I don't care who you are with or who you fight with/against on strat, I'll like you if you're not a complete asshole or extremely annoying.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Goretooth on December 03, 2012, 06:04:51 am
Gonna bet it only happened at the end of battle to waste gear. If not towards the end.....?
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on December 03, 2012, 06:07:27 am
Quote from: DoD_Blackzilla on December 03, 2012, 06:03:51 am


I understand, but I have actually talked to be people who don't like your faction as much due to the way some of your members act, I wasn't making that part up, but this was all said in TS, so it's not like I can prove it. You also have to remember people always take sides with their faction and will defend their fellow members. Like you and I are doing.

Are you kidding me bruh? I posted on the SECOND PAGE of this shit. I'm not backing anyone up, my opinion has been previously stated. I guess I have to also illustrate that I give not a single fuck if people think we're the most gigantic my old friendets inhabiting this entire planet. Me and my folks are simply having fun in the way that we do; we won't augment our behavior if people are upset by our actions. If they are upset by text on the internet, there is the ability to prevent yourself from coming into contact with the apparently volatile words: FUCKING MUTE THE PERSON GAT DANGIT.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Timmy_TheMadBadNerd on December 03, 2012, 06:08:19 am
Just thought I'd post and back up the fact that the ladders were in fact blocking the flags. I'm waiting for the screencap, but I couldn't grab one in time.

Either ladders need to be accepted as a legitimate form of blocking. Then the smaller factions are going to be hit even harder because this is will be another form of defense that they will have to spend on in order to become a decent strat threat. That's more gold for the smaller folks, which is going to hit them hard and the established clans are going to be even stronger. If that's what happens then fine, because I'm not the deciding factor on this. I will say however, that it is very very stupid and the dumbest thing I've seen in this game. 10/10 would nerdvirgin again.

If it's not accepted then the people doing said ladder blocking need to be banned for at least a few days. This is horse shit. This is intentional bug exploiting.

chadz doesn't give a shit because we're NA and we don't matter.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Blackzilla on December 03, 2012, 06:11:56 am
Quote from: Timmy_TheMadBadNerd on December 03, 2012, 06:08:19 am
Just thought I'd post and back up the fact that the ladders were in fact blocking the flags. I'm waiting for the screencap, but I couldn't grab one in time.

Either ladders need to be accepted as a legitimate form of blocking. Then the smaller factions are going to be hit even harder because this is will be another form of defense that they will have to spend on in order to become a decent strat threat. That's more gold for the smaller folks, which is going to hit them hard and the established clans are going to be even stronger. If that's what happens then fine, because I'm not the deciding factor on this. I will say however, that it is very very stupid and the dumbest thing I've seen in this game. 10/10 would nerdvirgin again.

If it's not accepted then the people doing said ladder blocking need to be banned for at least a few days. This is horse shit. This is intentional bug exploiting.

chadz doesn't give a shit because we're NA and we don't matter.
Timmy from what I'm hearing and seeing my faction being accused of, is that we may have done this ladderblocking our flags once. I'm almost sure it was just us wasting gear but whatever you wanna say, say it. They also have banned people for "cheating" in NA. So don't pull the devs dont care about this side of the map card. Now I'm biased towards those guys ban since I liked them, but they were banned for what the Devs called cheating.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Duster on December 03, 2012, 06:14:11 am
Quote from: Goretooth on December 03, 2012, 06:04:51 am
Gonna bet it only happened at the end of battle to waste gear. If not towards the end.....?

This exactly. Frisian dudes are trumping this up as if we were

1) Doing this all round
and
2) Doing this in an effort to win
and
3) Even cared about winning enough to cheat


When in reality, we got down to about 100 tickets and said "f*ck it, let's waste all the gear". No more, no less.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Timmy_TheMadBadNerd on December 03, 2012, 06:16:02 am
Quote from: DoD_Blackzilla on December 03, 2012, 06:11:56 am
Timmy from what I'm hearing and seeing my faction being accused of, is that we may have done this ladderblocking our flags once. I'm almost sure it was just us wasting gear but whatever you wanna say, say it. They also have banned people for "cheating" in NA. So don't pull the devs dont care about this side of the map card. Now I'm biased towards those guys ban since I liked them, but they were banned for what the Devs called cheating.

I really cannot understand what you are saying. If you are saying you were accused of ladderblocking, then yes you were, and yes you guys did it. It didn't matter, since it just wasted gear for both parties, but it just needs to be established whether this is OK, not OK, bannable, gay, etc. I've determined it's gay, but that's my side of the coin and I'm no admin nor an amazing player.

It's actually ruining battles just for spectacle because ladders lying everywhere looks just plain retarded, let alone for balance reasons.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Blackzilla on December 03, 2012, 06:16:49 am
Quote from: Sandersson Jankins on December 03, 2012, 06:07:27 am
Are you kidding me bruh? I posted on the SECOND PAGE of this shit. I'm not backing anyone up, my opinion has been previously stated. I guess I have to also illustrate that I give not a single fuck if people think we're the most gigantic my old friendets inhabiting this entire planet. Me and my folks are simply having fun in the way that we do; we won't augment our behavior if people are upset by our actions. If they are upset by text on the internet, there is the ability to prevent yourself from coming into contact with the apparently volatile words: FUCKING MUTE THE PERSON GAT DANGIT.
Muting him would be too easy, and wouldn't I have to do that EVERY-TIME he entered the server? I know what you mean with the " I don't give a fuck attitude" and I'll respect, I also found it humorous that Daruavin down votes your post when you defend him. Not that those silly things matter.


Quote from: Timmy_TheMadBadNerd on December 03, 2012, 06:16:02 am
I really cannot understand what you are saying. If you are saying you were accused of ladderblocking, then yes you were, and yes you guys did it. It didn't matter, since it just wasted gear for both parties, but it just needs to be established whether this is OK, not OK, bannable, gay, etc. I've determined it's gay, but that's my side of the coin and I'm no admin nor an amazing player.

It's actually ruining battles just for spectacle because ladders lying everywhere looks just plain retarded, let alone for balance reasons.

To intentional bug flags so attack/defense cannot cap your flags, is against the rules and falls under the common sense policy. Using ladders to help defend against cav has been non-officially ruled as gay not illegal!
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Tydeus on December 03, 2012, 06:17:06 am
Just when I start liking this community again, shit like this and the accusations from kesh come up. It's almost like the ban request section infected the strategus one. Let's all whine and cry about pointlessly trivial bullshit. Stop taking this game so seriously that you find yourselves whining over what couldn't be more than thirty or fourty troops. How about I give you guys 50K strat gold and you stop whining like six year olds.

Go out and buy some beer or something, you guys could clearly use the alcohol.


Also, will hero_party please stop replying to this junk?
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Timmy_TheMadBadNerd on December 03, 2012, 06:17:32 am
Quote from: Duster on December 03, 2012, 06:14:11 am
This exactly. Frisian dudes are trumping this up as if we were

1) Doing this all round
and
2) Doing this in an effort to win
and
3) Even cared about winning enough to cheat


When in reality, we got down to about 100 tickets and said "f*ck it, let's waste all the gear". No more, no less.

This happened on both sides of the NH-Hero Party battle as well, so it's not like nobody else is doing it. I'm just saying this is a particular bad incident because it blocked the spawn flags.

Blocking the spawn flags is the important part.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Blackzilla on December 03, 2012, 06:22:01 am
Quote from: Timmy_TheMadBadNerd on December 03, 2012, 06:17:32 am
This happened on both sides of the NH-Hero Party battle as well, so it's not like nobody else is doing it. I'm just saying this is a particular bad incident because it blocked the spawn flags.

Blocking the spawn flags is the important part.

Last post, in those battles spawns were NOT blocked from being spawn capped. Ladders were set up as a perimeter to help defend cav, I can come into your TS at some later point in time to explain to you the difference since my mighty master Tydeus has requested my silence. I also wish Smooth was unmuted to fight our forum wars.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Timmy_TheMadBadNerd on December 03, 2012, 06:23:40 am
Quote from: DoD_Blackzilla on December 03, 2012, 06:22:01 am

Last post, in those battles spawns were NOT blocked from being spawn capped. Ladders were set up as a perimeter to help defend cav, I can come into your TS at some later point in time to explain to you the difference since my mighty master Tydeus has requested my silence.

In this battle it was different. It blocked the spawn flags for a couple minutes. I'm just saying this needs to be decided, either as a group of admins/mods or as a community whether or not this is bannable, reportable, etc.

Quote from: DoD_Blackzilla on December 03, 2012, 06:16:49 am

To intentional bug flags so attack/defense cannot cap your flags, is against the rules and falls under the common sense policy. Using ladders to help defend against cav has been non-officially ruled as gay not illegal!

Well then ya'll broke the rules brah
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Blackzilla on December 03, 2012, 06:32:03 am
Quote from: Timmy_TheMadBadNerd on December 03, 2012, 06:23:40 am
Well then ya'll broke the rules brah
But can you prove it?
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Goretooth on December 03, 2012, 06:35:14 am
Quote from: Timmy_TheMadBadNerd on December 03, 2012, 06:23:40 am
In this battle it was different. It blocked the spawn flags for a couple minutes. I'm just saying this needs to be decided, either as a group of admins/mods or as a community whether or not this is bannable, reportable, etc.

Well then ya'll broke the rules brah
were the spawn flags all blocked by ladders?
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Kartoffel_Salat on December 03, 2012, 06:35:52 am
Quote from: Goretooth on December 03, 2012, 06:35:14 am
were the spawn flags all blocked by ladders?

From what I remember, no flag was blocked by a ladder, the ladders may have seemed it but they were all right in front of the flags.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Zater on December 03, 2012, 08:07:13 am
The whole ladder thing is quite silly, honestly if someone wants to use ladders in such a fashion who the hell am I to stop them. However I do think something that slows/stops cav that can be thrown down in the way ladders are being used currently would be a neat addition to strat,

Although if ladders are going to be used as a cav deterrent they should be placed well away from the flags to prevent this whole "hurr durr thats an exploit" argument that has sprung from it
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on December 03, 2012, 08:13:54 am
Quote from: Zater on December 03, 2012, 08:07:13 am
The whole ladder thing is quite silly, honestly if someone wants to use ladders in such a fashion who the hell am I to stop them. However I do think something that slows/stops cav that can be thrown down in the way ladders are being used currently would be a neat addition to strat,

Although if ladders are going to be used as a cav deterrent they should be placed well away from the flags to prevent this whole "hurr durr thats an exploit" argument that has sprung from it

The major problem with them being used against cavalry is that cavalry are literally the most expensive troops in the game by far, and they can be totally negated by a cheap, effortless item. It doesn't add up.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Rhalzo on December 03, 2012, 08:27:09 am
Quote from: Daruvian on December 03, 2012, 08:13:54 am
The major problem with them being used against cavalry is that cavalry are literally the most expensive troops in the game by far, and they can be totally negated by a cheap, effortless item. It doesn't add up.

Couldn't you say that a pitchfork or trident is a cheap, effortless (poke the pony in the face) item that can negate cavalry?
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: oprah_winfrey on December 03, 2012, 08:34:44 am
Quote from: Daruvian on December 03, 2012, 08:13:54 am
The major problem with them being used against cavalry is that cavalry are literally the most expensive troops in the game by far, and they can be totally negated by a cheap, effortless item. It doesn't add up.

By totally negated you mean it stops cav from spawn killing?
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on December 03, 2012, 08:35:11 am
Yes, except that a trident/pitchfork requires that you buy those weapons, dedicate them to certain players on your team, and dedicate those players to cover your archers. It takes up more resources from your team in terms of men AND weapons, rather then just being "just throw ladders there at the beginning to negate cav".
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on December 03, 2012, 08:35:56 am
Quote from: oprah_winfrey on December 03, 2012, 08:34:44 am
By totally negated you mean it stops cav from spawn killing?

No, I mean it makes it so that archers (the easiest target for cav) don't even have to be defended by players. They can just hide behind ladders.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Zater on December 03, 2012, 08:43:53 am
Quote from: Daruvian on December 03, 2012, 08:35:11 am
Yes, except that a trident/pitchfork requires that you buy those weapons, dedicate them to certain players on your team, and dedicate those players to cover your archers. It takes up more resources from your team in terms of men AND weapons, rather then just being "just throw ladders there at the beginning to negate cav".

Personally I think a team with well organized trident/pitchfork (or any polearm that can rear horses) users can beat a team that uses ladders to protect archers

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Goretooth on December 03, 2012, 09:34:24 am
Disable ladders in open field battles.  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on December 03, 2012, 09:41:25 am
Quote from: Goretooth on December 03, 2012, 09:34:24 am
Disable ladders in open field battles.  :mrgreen:

Do this. There is literally no legitimate need for them in fields.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: partyboy on December 03, 2012, 10:24:56 am
I want a field battle soon where I buy several hundred ladders and make every single merc throw one in a random location all over the map every time they spawn.

The return of ladder art.

edit:
Bring back old ladders in all game modes, tia
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNOogINr7Eg
(that garguro quote at the beginning was because of me  :oops:)
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Aderyn on December 03, 2012, 03:48:34 pm
This only stops cav from being tards with their spawnkilling. I always see cav swinging over all the flags with their couch up...

I don't have a problem at all with people somehow protecting the vicinity with ladders, allthough i'd like to see a replacement for those ladders into something that looks like a barricade against cav.

If people starts building corridors with ladders on the field and shit i think i'll take screenshots and claim it's against common sense tho... imo only 4 ladders around the flags is justified.


TL:DR: Blanket ban NA.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Rikthor on December 03, 2012, 04:05:19 pm
Ugh this thread, Blackzilla are you trying to challenge McDeath as the worst poster? Let's make things simple.

Are ladders being used in ways they were not intended? Yes

Is this against the rules? No

Has there been an official statement from a Dev regarding questionable uses of ladders? No

Does Smoothrich or Tydeus being an admin have anything to do with no dev statements? No

Does Shik have anything to do with Strat rules? No

In other words, make posts in the Strat suggestions or hit up the real devs, i.e. not Shik, and get them to make a rule post one way or the other.

Real Talk, the ladder forts are annoying but they are not the reason why people are losing. I have been on the losing side twice and while ladders are not fun, they didn't cause the loss.

The views expressed in this post are those of the author and do not necessarily represent the views of, and should not be attributed to, BIRD clan, the LLJK Faction, Hero Party, Nerds, Obama, or the USA Faction.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: BaleOhay on December 03, 2012, 04:06:12 pm
Yes it did happen at the end of the fight and very likely because they were wasting equipment, they were prob just bad placement while we were rushing. Wasting gear at the end of the fight and bad placement makes it no less against the rules unfortunately. No warnings or bans needed. I imagine everyone in all factions will be more careful just to avoid the drama generated.

I like Goretooth's idea (can not believe I just wrote that). Just disable them in open field fights.

on a wasting items note.. would it not make more sense to spawn with other items instead of a siege ladder at the end of the fight?
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Timmy_TheMadBadNerd on December 03, 2012, 04:25:10 pm
Quote from: Rikthor on December 03, 2012, 04:05:19 pm

The views expressed in this post are those of the author and do not necessarily represent the views of, and should not be attributed to, Nerds

Good, almost offended me there for a second.

Regardless, I just hate how ladders work in the current time, as it looks stupid and does a somewhat stupid thing for the cheap. I wouldnt mind if there were anti-cav measures possible for a decent price and something that didnt look so gatdang retarded.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Artyem on December 03, 2012, 07:22:01 pm
I think people are missing my point, I've seen ladders placed ON the flags countless times now.  And the only faction I've seen do it in battle is Hero Party.

Now, that doesn't mean I'm pointing fingers, but there's no real supervision on battles.  I talked to Shik, Tydeus and Smoothrich.  At first I was called a "sperg" (despite my reasonable approach) and then called a vassal of FCC, and the Northern Empire.  I didn't hold it against them, however they did eventually pull some interesting points:


[21:57] <Tydeus> so it's hero party's fault
[21:57] <Smoothrich> theres no rules against spamming ladders
[21:57] <Tydeus> not the mercs


[21:58] <@Shik> Artyem to be honest i didn't even see any blocked flags
[21:58] <@Shik> cause i was riding around far from the battle
[21:58] <@Shik> on horse
[21:59] <@Shik> and again, instead of spergin, lets think about things slowly, even if you did manage to cap the flags you'd have saved 50 tickets at most?

Shik was honest at least, and gave the solid answer that he didn't see anything because he was riding around far away from their spawn on a horse.  Tydeus confused me, as he seemed to have admitted to the flags being covered but instead brushed it off and said it isn't Hero Party's fault, it's the Mercenaries fault.  But then retracted that and said he didn't see it.

Conclusion:

I'm a bad sperg lord FCC vassal Northern Empire nerd, Kesh is bad sperg lord conspiracy theorist chocolate chip cookie internet terrorist Northern Empire geek nerd, and Shik and Tydeus are mature, kind people with no bad intention at all, and have only ever been good guys.  Or at least that's my assessment from Hero Party's view.


Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Goretooth on December 04, 2012, 01:08:34 am
Quote from: Meow on November 23, 2012, 09:21:41 pm
Although there are no set strat rules, the common sense rule obviously also goes for this.
If people use ladders and stuff to basically bug flags they can expect to be banned for a while and by a while I mean at least the time it takes to randomly respawn you on the eu side without troops.

Rule of thumb: If it is obvious exploiting as in an unfair advantage for your team and ruining the fun of everyone else - don't do it.
HP admins need to read this and adjust. Not make bad posts or insult those seeking help in irc.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Nightingale on December 04, 2012, 01:21:26 am
After reading part of this thread, I can safely assume my plan to remove common sense from this community was a huge success
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Weewum on December 04, 2012, 02:59:26 am
Quote from: Scilla on December 04, 2012, 01:21:26 am
After reading part of this thread, I can safely assume my plan to remove common sense from this community was a huge success
Can't remove what never existed.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: kinngrimm on December 04, 2012, 09:37:29 pm
Quote from: Artyem on December 03, 2012, 07:22:01 pm
I think people are missing my point, I've seen ladders placed ON the flags countless times now.  And the only faction I've seen do it in battle is Hero Party.
...
pointing fingers i think doesnt really make sense, even as you said it would have been Hero Party battles, but who can be sure it was not jsut a random merc who hasn't been on teamspeak and doing so without evil intent.

But if someone of the team becomes aware that a ladder would have been put "onto" their flags, i would say everyone should be free to destroy that to his best judgment. Ladders left, right infront or behind the spawn point or somewhere else on the battle field are traps, which can be avoided when the cav players communicate them.
Title: Re: Common sense
Post by: Artyem on December 04, 2012, 10:31:34 pm
Quote from: kinngrimm on December 04, 2012, 09:37:29 pm
pointing fingers i think doesnt really make sense, even as you said it would have been Hero Party battles, but who can be sure it was not jsut a random merc who hasn't been on teamspeak and doing so without evil intent.

But if someone of the team becomes aware that a ladder would have been put "onto" their flags, i would say everyone should be free to destroy that to his best judgment. Ladders left, right infront or behind the spawn point or somewhere else on the battle field are traps, which can be avoided when the cav players communicate them.

Even if it is a random mercenary putting the ladders on the flags, it seems to be quite intentional since it's happened on more than one occasion now.  Is it not the admins responsibility to be vigilant for these kinds of things?  I'd say it is, but consider that there are either:

A. No admins during the battle

or

B. The admins are in Hero Party

there's nothing to be done about it.  They can excuse themselves by saying they weren't in the area when it happened and didn't see it, but that really only works for Shik.  Tydeus and Smoothrich could have easily spawned and seen it, and I'm pretty sure both of them are admins.  So, here's my suggested list of improvements:

1. More admins to monitor battles.
2. Disable ladders on ground battles
3. Make any object that can be deployed break on impact with flags.

This way we can avoid drama, keep griefing out of the game and assure that there's no substitute for ladders.


EDIT:

I really dislike hypocrisy, however everyone is capable of it.  Wouldn't it make sense if admins could do their job without calling people 'spergs' 'nerds' and other names?  FCC and several others see ladders on flags during a hero party battle, they call it out, they're called conspiracists and sperglords.  Immediately after that, the admins from Hero Party draw even wilder accusations about Kesh and his allies, essentially pointing at a mirror and calling it crazy.

tl;dr drama blablabla bloobloo QQ