cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Joker86 on November 21, 2012, 01:18:33 pm

Title: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Joker86 on November 21, 2012, 01:18:33 pm
Hi there!

I would just like to sum up the changes I think cRPG needs to reach 1.0-status. I will keep it as a list, so feel free to agree or disagree on single points, and if you disagree even offer another solution:


1. Change battle mode to conquest mode.

3 carefully placed flags on a few well designed and balanced maps, 1000 ressources per team, the team with less flags losing ressources (perhaps the less players the dominating team has the faster the ressources dwindle?), if ressources or living players reach the value of 0 the team loses. Would fix ~80% of all class balance problems cRPG has.


2. Implement a commander system.

Make a commander system with commanders which don't need to be elected, and every payer having the system activated by default (= you don't need to join on purpose), perhaps even with small rewards for carrying out orders. I suggest forum vote to create a commander ranking, and commanders being in charge as soon as they join the server, always being balanced equally on the teams. If there are more than two commanders the ranking decides about who's in charge, if there are less than two commanders the system is disabled. Would again fix a few balancing problems.


3. Rewrite team balance.


The game checks the classes of the players regarding their skills and their equipment. Some information can already be prepared on the webside. It also tracks the average score/ K/D / W/L ratio/ eqipment value of players and their generation. Basing on this information balance is calculated. Class>skill>clan is the order. If there is a majority of one class in one team, and there are not enough players of the same class for the other team, the game fills it up with their counter class, which means GKs will have to fight a lot of pikemen whenever they join the server in masses like they use to do.


4. New income system.

I don't have a proper suggestion for this, as there are many possible solutions. I guess if the score calculation becomes a bit fairer you can base gold and XP income on it. I would just like to add the idea that the rewards could be modified by the class you are playing, which means you get bonus rewards if you play a rare class. Could grant a little bit more diversity on the servers. Bt one thing is for sure: that terrible modifier and its leech friendliness have to go!


5. Remove upkeep.

The system was always crappy since it got introduced. It added worries about your remaining gold, you were restricted to certain equipment, devs were forced to make some items more viable than others to support the upkeep system in its attempt to grant diversity and limit the players on mid tier equipment, and finally it didn't help the balance at all, because temporarily restricting a certain powerfull equipment build doesn't make it balanced once it is used on the server. And as we all know, the introduction of the marketplace already removed the upkeep system as item limitation system, as there were no limitations any more for people who sold loom points.

I suggest to replace it with the "wealth skill" system. A new, attribute-unrelated skill is introduced, called wealth. Every player gets a certain budget for items he can equip, which is represented by the item value. The item value is NOT the item price in the shop, it's a seperate value, similar to its slot value. The value is raised by each level and by every point of wealth skill, but even on top level you would be restricted on very basic and cheap eqipment if you have welath 0. On the other hand, if you have wealth value 10 or 15 or whatever, you can constantly equip a plated charger, full plate and a heavy lance, going Finn style. But your skills will suffer heavily, balancing it out. Equipping more than what your budget is leads to items not being equipped at all or the next cheapest item, just like in Warband MP. That way you can decide to go with good skills and poor equipment, good equipment and poor skills or mediocre skills and mediocre equipment. We will have a batter balance (good items "costing" skill, which is a limited ressource is a way better base for balancing than items costing money, which is an unlimited ressource and thus basically unbalancable), more diversity in builds and finally more fun for everyone, because you can ALWAYS run around in your favourite eqipment and be recognized by the others.

Gold income would be reduced massively, and buying a new piece of equipment could become an event again, like in old days.


6. Make the game more deadly/raise the level cap.

I guess some players won't like the suggestion above with a wealth skill, reducing the effectivity of their builds. But it's only half as bad as it seems on the first glance, because suggestion 5 goes hand in hand with raising the level cap to 36, 39 or even 42. The game is very slow at the moment, and you need a lot of hits to kill somebody. Raising the level cap would be a very easy way to solve that problem, it would stretch that motivating "character progression part" a bit, would allow more builds (especially some interesting hybrids) and would increase the level span of the "peasant" classification, which should be a good argument for most players  :wink:


7. Buff armour.

Currently there is only little use in using light armour, as the protection is close to wearing no armour. On the other hand there is little use in wearing plate armour, because heavy armour offers almost the same protection. Stretching the range of armour values and implementing a small "jump" between cloth armour and light armour could improve things a bit. That way you can actually FEEL the armour you are wearing. I am perfectly fine with increasing the weight of the heaviest armours to implement a tradeoff.


8. Buff some classes again.


All those changes could create some room for buffing some classes again. I am thinking mainly of archers and cavalry, especially heavy cavalry which is basically non existant in the game. But be carefull with buffing throwers, as they have a few very ugly mechanics which can easily lead to everybody using backup throwing weapons, leading to a lot of ranged spam and degenerating melee to short ranged combat.


9. Revert the turn speed nerf to a certain degree

Weapons should turn slower proportionally to their length and weight. Longer and heavier weapons should turn much slower than for example short 1hd weapons.


10. Implement some of the minor suggestions around here.

Things like making archers and crossbows switch ammo types, implementing "half slots", knocking cav out of the saddle, displaying the W/L ration on the webside and so on.



Dang, again it got a huge wall of text. But it's divided into points, and they are quite self explanatory, and if not there's not much to read for the particular point.
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Tzar on November 21, 2012, 01:27:47 pm
Good read but i think the current cRPG feels just fine imho  :shock:

Inf combat could use a speed up buts thats bout it.

^ note feinting is almost dead an non-existent anymore thx to the slow combat  :cry:
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Wiltzu on November 21, 2012, 02:26:01 pm
Joker, I'd like to ask you few things:

Are you NA/EU?
How much do you play on average per week? I'd like to have a screenshot from your c-rpg.net Statistics page.
How long have you been playing REGULARLY c-rpg? I really haven't seen you playing (I personally play pretty much always EU1) at least with the nick that you state to use.


You seem to be talking often about the balance. IMO c-rpg is pretty damn balanced, or how would you explain the diversity between builds in NA and EU? In NA the "normal" amount of agility is 9-15 where as in EU that is 15-21. Without a good balance this couldn't have happened. Don't start argue with the specific numbers, you get the point.
In one patch I've got to be archer, xbow+1h/2h, shielder, 2h, pole, cav and IMO they were balanced.

This is odd coming from my mouth as I'm very bad at explaining stuff, but I want to see some proof that the game is highly unbalanced, as I get that kind of picture from what I read your suggestions/posts.


IMO the thing we need the most is a new xp/gold system.
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Ego_HRE on November 21, 2012, 02:26:07 pm
There r 1-2 good points...
Think..upkeep system is good...game speed to.
A new game mode will be attractive :mrgreen:
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Thomek on November 21, 2012, 02:36:50 pm
(click to show/hide)

I think he doesn't say its so unbalanced. He just listed his ideas for making cRPG a better game.. Of course a different game, but still.

I agree a better vision for cRPG would be nice.. it just kinda grew as a process over time. I have my hopes for cRPG2 one day ;)
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Dezilagel on November 21, 2012, 02:40:41 pm
1. Change battle mode to conquest mode.

3 carefully placed flags on a few well designed and balanced maps, 1000 ressources per team, the team with less flags losing ressources (perhaps the less players the dominating team has the faster the ressources dwindle?), if ressources or living players reach the value of 0 the team loses.

That would be some rather boring gameplay. Would force people into acting a certain way (flanking/loning would be next to useless), standing boots on flag would be really boring in Warband as a non-ranged class and battles would feel even more same-ey among other issues.

Would fix ~80% of all class balance problems cRPG has.

Ass-pull of the year.

2. Implement a commander system.

Make a commander system with commanders which don't need to be elected, and every payer having the system activated by default (= you don't need to join on purpose), perhaps even with small rewards for carrying out orders. I suggest forum vote to create a commander ranking, and commanders being in charge as soon as they join the server, always being balanced equally on the teams. If there are more than two commanders the ranking decides about who's in charge, if there are less than two commanders the system is disabled.

Hey commander!

(click to show/hide)

Why should I be punished for not following the directives of some self-important douche not chosen by me?

Let the players play the game their way, pubs are pubs. They're not there for super-serious gaming imo.

2 tips: JOIN A CLAN and USE TS.

Would again fix a few balancing problems.

No wait, another challenger appears!


3. Rewrite team balance.


The game checks the classes of the players regarding their skills and their equipment. Some information can already be prepared on the webside. It also tracks the average score/ K/D / W/L ratio/ eqipment value of players and their generation. Basing on this information balance is calculated. Class>skill>clan is the order. If there is a majority of one class in one team, and there are not enough players of the same class for the other team, the game fills it up with their counter class, which means GKs will have to fight a lot of pikemen whenever they join the server in masses like they use to do.

Pikemen don't counter cav.

While it is annoying to fight stacks, this sounds like way too complicated a solution.

And how would you check if someone is a pikeman and not a short spear user? if you could, wouldn't people just switch their equipment around to get on the winning/annoying to fight team?

4. New income system.

I don't have a proper suggestion for this, as there are many possible solutions. I guess if the score calculation becomes a bit fairer you can base gold and XP income on it. I would just like to add the idea that the rewards could be modified by the class you are playing, which means you get bonus rewards if you play a rare class. Could grant a little bit more diversity on the servers. Bt one thing is for sure: that terrible modifier and its leech friendliness has to go!

I find your use of the word "proper"amusing.

I can see some pretty bad stuff happening if this is implemented. Asuming score is based on damage in some form or another, there would probably be a surge of "3 stacks of arrows HA" and stuff like that who could farm the system delaying rounds. Also, if this is implemented alongside your conquest idea (which I assume is your thought) then that would force people down an even more linear path assuming score is tied to completing objectives.

The valour system rewards those who excel, and it's good enough imho.

5. Remove upkeep.

The system was always crappy since it got introduced. It added worries about your remaining gold, you were restricted to certain equipment, devs were forced to make some items more viable than others to support the upkeep system in its attempt to grant diversity and limit the players on top tier equipment, and finally it didn't help the balance at all, because temporarily restricting a certain powerfull equipment build doesn't make it balanced once it is used on the server. And as we all know, the introduction of the marketplace already removed the upkeep system as item limitation system, as there were no limitations any more for people who sold loom points.

I suggest to replace it with the "wealth skill" system. A new, attribute-unrelated skill is introduced, called wealth. Every player gets a certain budget for items he can equip, which is represented by the item value. The item value is NOT the item price in the shop, it's a seperate value, similar to its slot value. The value is raised by each level and by every point of wealth skill, but even on top level you would be restricted on very basic and cheap eqipment if you have welath 0. On the other hand, if you have wealth value 10 or 15 or whatever, you can constantly equip a plated charger, full plate and a heavy lance, going Finn style. But your skills will suffer heavily, balancing it out. Equipping more than your budget is leads to items not being equipped at all or the next cheapest item, just like in Warband MP. That way you can decide to go with good skills and poor equipment, good equipment and poor skills or mediocre skills and mediocre equipment. We will have a batter balance (good items "costing" skill, which is a limited ressource is a way better base for balancing than items costing money, which is an unlimited ressource and thus basically unbalancable), more diversity in builds and finally more fun for everyone, because you can ALWAYS run around in your favourite eqipment and be recognized by the others.

Gold income would be reduced massively, and buying a new piece of equipment could become an event again, like in old days.

Good concept, but there are some apparent problems:

Firstly, you're not solving the problem with equipment restrictions; you're making it worse.

For the wealth skill to have any point to it you'd have to have distinct tiers of better/worse gear. And while you could wear the gear you want, if you want to wear something of a higher/lower teir, or there's an item balance path your build will suddenly be sub-optimal if not useless.

Therefore while any player can wear any gear, they will be forced to build their build (not intended) around their gear and as such cannot swittch it around.

Going with cheaper gear for a little while to gain some gold in order not to go broke from upkeep is easy, changing your entire build is super-awkward and time-consuming.

Also, some people don't like to grind (me being one of them), and amplifying that part of c-rpg is not necessarily good.

6. Make the game more deadly/raise the level cap.

I guess some players won't like the suggestion above with a wealth skill, reducing the effectivity of their builds. But it's only half as bad as it seems on the first glance, because suggestion 5 goes hand in hand with raising the level cap to 36, 39 or even 42. The game is very slow at the moment, and you need a lot of hits to kill somebody. Raising the level cap would be a very easy way to solve that problem, it would stretch that motivating "character progression part" a bit, would allow more builds (especially some interesting hybrids) and would increase the level span of the "peasant" classification, which should be a good argument for most players  :wink:

I agree with higher level cap, but only for the purpose of increasing gamespeed (which is something I'd really like to see).

More grinding == bad imho as I said earlier.

7. Buff armour.

Currently there is only little use in using light armour, as the protection is close to wearing no armour. On the other hand there is little use in wearing plate armour, because heavy armour offers almost the same protection. Stretching the range of armour values and implementing a small "jump" between cloth armour and light armour could improve things a bit. That way you can actually FEEL the armour you are wearing. I am perfectly fine with increasing the weight of the heaviest armours to implement a tradeoff.

Bullshit.

The effect of armor only increases as you get more of it. Fully-loomed plate monsters are incredibly tough to kill compared to medium-armored foes.

Also light armor isn't useless at all. I wear a 30-armor helmet and it's a huge difference compared to no helmet or Deli Cap (buff Deli Cap!)

The main reason people use medium armor is because it fall in line nicely with a manageable upkeep while offering decent protection and not making you slow as balls (boring!). Armor balance seems pretty fine to me atm. Most infantry use medium armor while a minority goes to either extreme.


8. Buff some classes again.


All those changes could create some room for buffing some classes again. I am thinking mainly of archers and cavalry, especially heavy cavalry which is basically non existant in the game. But be carefull with buffing throwers, as they have a few very ugly mechanics which can easily lead to everybody using backup throwing weapons, leading to a lot of ranged spam and degenerating melee to short ranged combat.

No. Heavy cav is rare, well because it should be rare. Sure throwers have some "ugly" mechanics but look at cav! Bumps - skill-less bullshit. Bump-slash/lance annoys people with short weapons to no end. Rape-trains: Aaaarggh! Rage!

Yes, a major change to c-rpg's core would probably require massive balance changes as well, but these specific examples aren't really telling.

Reducing the amount of arabians in favour of heavier horses is something I can agree with though, but that's just a specific balance case.

9. Implement some of the minor suggestions around here.

Things like making archers and crossbows switch ammo types, implementing "half slots", knocking cav out of the saddle, displaying the W/L ration on the webside and so on.

Is this just renown-whoring? Because it seems kind of pointless to say.

Everyone wants those suggestions they like to be implemented. Duh.

Dang, again it got a huge wall of text. But it's divided into points, and they are quite self explanatory, and if not there's not much to read for the particular point.

The points are not really self-explanatory. "Buff Armor", really?

zzz...
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Rebelyell on November 21, 2012, 03:01:13 pm
upkeep is the best thing that happened to crpg

before pach there was 2 kinds of players

1 was players that still grind for full plate and jump to that by using better and better armors
2 was full metal plate heroes

I say no to that, never ever again(BTW I was one of that siege full str morningstar my old friends)
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Bronto on November 21, 2012, 03:52:28 pm
They should never remove the upkeep system. What happens then is you have people in Full plate on Plated chargers swinging morningstars with Danish greatswords as their back up in case they get dismounted. not to mention full plate longbow archers and any other class in full plate. basically full plate everything...good game...the game is fairly balanced right now, 1h needs a slight damage buff for their swords and stuff but other than that, everything else looks/feels fine. Also, whatever was done to polearms last patch needs to be reworked, since 2h is now the far superior class with the high damage, quick speed and lolstab animation. just my opinion.
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: TurmoilTom on November 21, 2012, 03:57:47 pm
The upkeep system didn't solve anything. It didn't get rid of the possibility of playing in plate 24/7. It just made it take longer to get there (and even that is debateable considering how long it took to actually *get* plate in the old days).

Sell heirloom points and play market. Rollin' in loot in no time.
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Bronto on November 21, 2012, 04:01:54 pm
The upkeep system didn't solve anything. It didn't get rid of the possibility of playing in plate 24/7. It just made it take longer to get there (and even that is debateable considering how long it took to actually *get* plate in the old days).

Sell heirloom points and play market. Rollin' in loot in no time.


I agree with this, however like everything, it comes down to the person playing the game. if you want to be a douche in full plate 24/7 there's nothing stopping you. But upkeep is a good factor for most people because it gives you a bill for all that expense and to some people it's more important to have loomed weapons/armor that it is to have gold and do full plate all the time.
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: SirCymro_Crusader on November 21, 2012, 04:04:18 pm
.
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Pejlaen on November 21, 2012, 04:59:15 pm
What Crpg needs?

A worthy funeral.
On just a tiny bit more optimistic note though, I am really hoping that this game gets on its feet again. But I started playing Crpg again in April after a 8 months long break, and I immediately felt that this was a great game in a dying state. And I dont feel that it has changed abit these past months either, problems are hardly being adressed properly for Crpg to recover. I have tried really hard to be optimistic through everything since I started playing again, but the crpg experience now feels more like watching a train-wreck rather than a game to have fun in.
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Joker86 on November 21, 2012, 07:53:25 pm
Joker, I'd like to ask you few things:

[...]

You seem to be talking often about the balance. IMO c-rpg is pretty damn balanced, or how would you explain the diversity between builds in NA and EU?

I do often talk about balance, but this time I did not. At least not in the usual way you talk about balance ("NEEERRRRFF!").
I was not suggesting to make one thing more powerfull or to nerf the other. I am aware that the balance is pretty good, but in my eyes the overall effectivity average of classes is too low. What I am suggesting is basically taking that balance and elevating it on a higher effectivity/deadliness level. The only other statement about balancing was concerning archers and cavalry, and this was related to changes in the game mode (archers and especially cav are not really suited for taking and holding terrain).

Spoiler for Dezilagel:
(click to show/hide)



upkeep is the best thing that happened to crpg

before pach there was 2 kinds of players

1 was players that still grind for full plate and jump to that by using better and better armors
2 was full metal plate heroes

I say no to that, never ever again(BTW I was one of that siege full str morningstar my old friends)


If you actually read what was written under "remove upkeep", you wold notice that I am indeed supporting the reintroduction of full-time-tincans, but lso supporting to nerf them with lower skills. And I am also supporting making plate even heavier, slowing people down more. In combination with low skills but certain item requirements (requiring to push strength) many tincans will be horribly slow. HORRIBLY!  :P

I agree with this, however like everything, it comes down to the person playing the game. if you want to be a douche in full plate 24/7 there's nothing stopping you. But upkeep is a good factor for most people because it gives you a bill for all that expense and to some people it's more important to have loomed weapons/armor that it is to have gold and do full plate all the time.

Basically the same thing what I answered Rebelyell, plus this:

You can be in full plate 24/7, but there IS something stopping you, at least of ebing a douche: you have bad skills. You will be much slower than someone else in cheaper equipment, and thus less dangerous. Perhaps people can ignore losing money to some extend, but they definitely can't ignore hitting less hard, being much slower or much more inaccurate.
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Adamar on November 21, 2012, 07:59:09 pm

3. Rewrite team balance.


The game checks the classes of the players regarding their skills and their equipment. Some information can already be prepared on the webside. It also tracks the average score/ K/D / W/L ratio/ eqipment value of players and their generation. Basing on this information balance is calculated. Class>skill>clan is the order. If there is a majority of one class in one team, and there are not enough players of the same class for the other team, the game fills it up with their counter class, which means GKs will have to fight a lot of pikemen whenever they join the server in masses like they use to do.

Regarding this one, some of the calculation doesn't even need to be done in game. Let the website classify each character, like, this char is a class B archer, or that is a class A cav,... And then let the ballancer work with these tokens.
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Joker86 on November 21, 2012, 08:02:43 pm
Regarding this one, some of the calculation doesn't even need to be done in game. Let the website classify each character, like, this char is a class B archer, or that is a class A cav,... And then let the ballancer work with these tokens.

Right, but on ome classes this doesn't work, the best example are polearms, which can be halberdiers or pikemen or even crushthrough infantry. And all of them are fundamentally different than the others. But yes, of course, you can already make the biggest part of the calculation and the rest is done on the server. Someone with 100% WPF points in archery will most likely be n archer, no need for equipment check.
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Taser on November 21, 2012, 08:03:29 pm
In NA the "normal" amount of agility is 9-15 where as in EU that is 15-21. Without a good balance this couldn't have happened. Don't start argue with the specific numbers, you get the point.

IMO the thing we need the most is a new xp/gold system.

That's for sure. I've been called an agi whore on an alt when I had 21 agi. Made me lol.

While I agree with some of your suggestions Joker, I dislike the idea of a wealth skill or buffing the lvl cap just to compensate for adding in the wealth skill.

I'd be for iupping the lvl cap I suppose but it'd be easier just to increase the game speed rather than force people to lvl up more to compensate for a slower game.

I'm definitely for conquest mode but instead of killing battle, just get rid of siege instead.
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Joker86 on November 21, 2012, 08:06:20 pm
While I agree with some of your suggestions Joker, I dislike the idea of a wealth skill or buffing the lvl cap just to compensate for adding in the wealth skill.

To be honest, Torbens "giving cRPG that punch back" topic brought me to the idea of increasing level cap to lower the problem of slow game speed and to increase variety, and in this process I noticed that my old "wealth skill" idea could be implemented much better. It wasn't the other way round.
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Tot. on November 21, 2012, 08:08:24 pm
I agree on adding back a commander system. For me best days of cRPG were when there were commanders setting flags for the team which was linked with exp/gold gain - as in if you just run off from your team you don't get paid - it was a rather excellent idea to solve the problem of stupidity of pub players. What I mostly see these days when I lurk on EU1 is simply that pubbies still haven't realized for good that bigger zerg wins in this game, and it takes couple of rounds each map to make them realize this. Or not. Then it's 0-5 if the opposing team does use the secret tactics of assembling in one huge ball of heavy armored drones and in sequence steamrolls all these lone-wolf idiots heroes.

Though I strongly disagree on armor part. There's already too much glancing, bouncing off and only-stun hits with so many heirloomed mid-heavy armors everywhere compared to native. It brings too much randomness to fights instead of skill.
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Taser on November 21, 2012, 08:15:14 pm
To be honest, Torbens "giving cRPG that punch back" topic brought me to the idea of increasing level cap to lower the problem of slow game speed and to increase variety, and in this process I noticed that my old "wealth skill" idea could be implemented much better. It wasn't the other way round.

Fair enough but I still dislike the idea of a wealth skill although I understand where you're coming from with it. Its definitely a creative idea to try and replace upkeep. I also think it'd still be easier to just buff game speed rather than force players to lvl up more so they can get more wpf and swing faster.
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Corsair831 on November 21, 2012, 08:27:19 pm
imo crpg needs lasers, muskets & robots.

Then we could have a robot samurai dual wielding a laser cannon and a musket, whilst riding a plated charger.

Go chadz, implement pls.
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: TurmoilTom on November 21, 2012, 08:31:35 pm
imo crpg needs lasers, muskets & robots.

Then we could have a robot samurai dual wielding a laser cannon and a musket, whilst riding a plated charger.

Go chadz, implement pls.

Don't forget pink hair and cross-dressing.
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: MrShine on November 21, 2012, 08:34:15 pm
Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO)

chutzpah
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Wiltzu on November 21, 2012, 08:43:03 pm
Joker, I still didn't get what I asked for.

Are you NA/EU? If I remember correctly you're German, but still I didn't get any answer from you
How much do you play on average per week? I'd like to have a screenshot from your c-rpg.net Statistics page. I'm still waiting these
How long have you been playing REGULARLY c-rpg? I really haven't seen you playing (I personally play pretty much always EU1) at least with the nick that you state to use. You didn't answer this one either

You make extremely long texts/posts with proper English so I'd assume you'd be able to answer to my questions and yet you didn't answer to my questions when you replied to me.


IMHO you don't play enough to be the judge what should be changed (prove me wrong and provide the ss+info I asked).
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Joseph Porta on November 21, 2012, 08:44:53 pm
what is Joker's ign?  now that I think of it I would have no idea what is ign is! :lol:
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: IR_Kuoin on November 21, 2012, 08:46:55 pm
Quote
which means you get bonus rewards if you play a rare class.

So I can just make a stone thrower and level up like a chew chew train?
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: TurmoilTom on November 21, 2012, 08:48:13 pm
So I can just make a stone thrower and level up like a chew chew train?

Too common. Make a thrower/archer hybrid.
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on November 21, 2012, 08:53:20 pm
Quote
Too common. Make a thrower/archer hybrid.

I tried this once. I pretended I was a native american and threw things and shooted things. It was fucking horrible.

Also, cRPG's pretty good atm. I think the only thing that would be better would be more cooperation/teamwork in battle, which would be most easily done via an in-game VOIP thing, or at least an official TS for each server.
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Joker86 on November 21, 2012, 09:23:43 pm
So I can just make a stone thrower and level up like a chew chew train?

Yes, a chew chew train with like 5% more speed than the others. Hold your train driver cap fast or it will fly off  :P
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: peter_afca7 on November 21, 2012, 11:29:50 pm
What Crpg needs?

A worthy funeral.
On just a tiny bit more optimistic note though, I am really hoping that this game gets on its feet again. But I started playing Crpg again in April after a 8 months long break, and I immediately felt that this was a great game in a dying state. And I dont feel that it has changed abit these past months either, problems are hardly being adressed properly for Crpg to recover. I have tried really hard to be optimistic through everything since I started playing again, but the crpg experience now feels more like watching a train-wreck rather than a game to have fun in.
for me cRPG gets less fun because of people like you shooting running away turn around shoot over and over again sick of it
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Pejlaen on November 22, 2012, 12:30:14 am
for me cRPG gets less fun because of people like you shooting running away turn around shoot over and over again sick of it

I'm glad

Edit: haha, I've gone through lengths to keep my playstyle fair to other peoples as well. I never kite or used the elements in archery that some people consider "abusing", I focused on being concentrated and accurate instead. Then at somepoint I got overwhelmed by the QQ from every single direction, and I just lost interest in caring in keeping my playstyle restrained for those who cries like 3-year olds in this game. Gz QQers, it's almost as if you've added an kiting archer to this game. Success for you? : )
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Strider on November 22, 2012, 01:03:19 am
I can agree cRPG hasn't been as fun lately as it used to be. This is because of all the deadly nerfs that have been shoved on every style of gameplay. But these suggestions will not help cRPG.

The solution is simple. We need to stop nerfing(start buffing), stop listening to whine, and we need to find a way to give every player an even choice between every class. (Also buff hybrid classes)
Right now I am playing 2 handed (seems like the most powerful class at the time) and I still get really bored. I don't know why. Maybe it's because of my lack of individuality in my character. I want to find a different, fun, and effective build that I can level up and grow at a reasonable pace with. With the way cRPG is at now, I don't think I will be able to do that. All the classes look like crap to me.
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Taser on November 22, 2012, 06:01:15 am
Try torch class. Or brawler class. Or dagger class. Etc. I;m sure most of us have tried various builds but its fun enough to have random alts. I have an alt where I'm trying to be somewhat proficient in 4 weapon proficiencies. Its not too bad especially since its supposed to be a class that just finds random weapons on the battlefield to use.
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Leshma on November 22, 2012, 01:30:08 pm
cRPG needs Mount&Blade 2 with stamina, inertia, better physics simulation in general.
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Falka on November 22, 2012, 02:00:34 pm
cRPG needs Mount&Blade 2
So.... what is the release date for M&B2?

Oh! and what's the release date for Project Asinus?
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Smoothrich on November 22, 2012, 02:05:12 pm
I wrote like 10,000 words while cracked out on Adderall about all the flaws of Battle mode, how it burns out veterans and turns off new players, and how well Conquest mode would fix almost every problem with cRPG and give it a ton of new life. 

http://forum.meleegaming.com/suggestions-corner/conquest-gametype-combine-strategus-siege-and-battle-into-1-bad-assed-mode/

Read through this thread for some high quality drug-induced insights and suggestions.
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Vibe on November 22, 2012, 02:24:56 pm
What cRPG doesn't need is ranged.

We should really just remove ranged. Imagine a ranged-less cRPG.

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Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Leshma on November 22, 2012, 03:30:28 pm
I agree Vibe. First thing that pissed me off last night was Tenne's arrow from 200 meter distance and I didn't even see it coming...

Ranged in cRPG is extremely annoying, there is no other game that has rage inducing range class like cRPG.

Although there were some really cool folks playing last night on EU1, playing cRPG feels like beating a dead horse.

Also horse riding.. do you have any idea how silly that looks like after you come back from a long pause? Yes, cRPG is the only game with mounted combat but horse riding is a joke.

Mount and Blade 2 needs to improve a lot. I'll be truly disappointed if they change a thing or two and realease it as a sequel.

If you play Warband regularly, game seems perfectly normal. But if you forget about it for some time, first contact after that is horrible but it's gets better after some time because you get used to it. This is 4th time that happens to me.

Graphics are perfectly fine, a bit outdated but I don't mind it at all. But everything else is... actually only good thing is complexity of the gameplay. Animations, the overall feel of the game is card box fighting, always been it's just that you get used to it. They need to heavily improve on that.

Also night time has to go or there should be put torches on the battlefield every few meters. I've never liked Thief like aspect of M&B.
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Kenji on November 22, 2012, 03:58:17 pm
Keep lobbying for a range-less cRPG, maybe the devs will host a Christmas No-Ranged cRPG for everyone to try it out.

Then we'll see if we miss ranged or the whole gameplay actually improved without them.
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: [ptx] on November 22, 2012, 04:00:37 pm
Protip: Melee-only server. Oh, it was fun... nōt.
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: SoA_Sir_ODHarry on November 22, 2012, 04:06:44 pm
lol its just obvisously that the singel thing that can revive crpg are new Battelmodes.

Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Vkvkvk on November 22, 2012, 05:06:48 pm
Hi there!

I would just like to sum up the changes I think cRPG needs to reach 1.0-status. I will keep it as a list, so feel free to agree or disagree on single points, and if you disagree even offer another solution:


1. Change battle mode to conquest mode.

3 carefully placed flags on a few well designed and balanced maps, 1000 ressources per team, the team with less flags losing ressources (perhaps the less players the dominating team has the faster the ressources dwindle?), if ressources or living players reach the value of 0 the team loses. Would fix ~80% of all class balance problems cRPG has.


2. Implement a commander system.

Make a commander system with commanders which don't need to be elected, and every payer having the system activated by default (= you don't need to join on purpose), perhaps even with small rewards for carrying out orders. I suggest forum vote to create a commander ranking, and commanders being in charge as soon as they join the server, always being balanced equally on the teams. If there are more than two commanders the ranking decides about who's in charge, if there are less than two commanders the system is disabled. Would again fix a few balancing problems.


3. Rewrite team balance.


The game checks the classes of the players regarding their skills and their equipment. Some information can already be prepared on the webside. It also tracks the average score/ K/D / W/L ratio/ eqipment value of players and their generation. Basing on this information balance is calculated. Class>skill>clan is the order. If there is a majority of one class in one team, and there are not enough players of the same class for the other team, the game fills it up with their counter class, which means GKs will have to fight a lot of pikemen whenever they join the server in masses like they use to do.


4. New income system.

I don't have a proper suggestion for this, as there are many possible solutions. I guess if the score calculation becomes a bit fairer you can base gold and XP income on it. I would just like to add the idea that the rewards could be modified by the class you are playing, which means you get bonus rewards if you play a rare class. Could grant a little bit more diversity on the servers. Bt one thing is for sure: that terrible modifier and its leech friendliness have to go!


5. Remove upkeep.

The system was always crappy since it got introduced. It added worries about your remaining gold, you were restricted to certain equipment, devs were forced to make some items more viable than others to support the upkeep system in its attempt to grant diversity and limit the players on mid tier equipment, and finally it didn't help the balance at all, because temporarily restricting a certain powerfull equipment build doesn't make it balanced once it is used on the server. And as we all know, the introduction of the marketplace already removed the upkeep system as item limitation system, as there were no limitations any more for people who sold loom points.

I suggest to replace it with the "wealth skill" system. A new, attribute-unrelated skill is introduced, called wealth. Every player gets a certain budget for items he can equip, which is represented by the item value. The item value is NOT the item price in the shop, it's a seperate value, similar to its slot value. The value is raised by each level and by every point of wealth skill, but even on top level you would be restricted on very basic and cheap eqipment if you have welath 0. On the other hand, if you have wealth value 10 or 15 or whatever, you can constantly equip a plated charger, full plate and a heavy lance, going Finn style. But your skills will suffer heavily, balancing it out. Equipping more than what your budget is leads to items not being equipped at all or the next cheapest item, just like in Warband MP. That way you can decide to go with good skills and poor equipment, good equipment and poor skills or mediocre skills and mediocre equipment. We will have a batter balance (good items "costing" skill, which is a limited ressource is a way better base for balancing than items costing money, which is an unlimited ressource and thus basically unbalancable), more diversity in builds and finally more fun for everyone, because you can ALWAYS run around in your favourite eqipment and be recognized by the others.

Gold income would be reduced massively, and buying a new piece of equipment could become an event again, like in old days.


6. Make the game more deadly/raise the level cap.

I guess some players won't like the suggestion above with a wealth skill, reducing the effectivity of their builds. But it's only half as bad as it seems on the first glance, because suggestion 5 goes hand in hand with raising the level cap to 36, 39 or even 42. The game is very slow at the moment, and you need a lot of hits to kill somebody. Raising the level cap would be a very easy way to solve that problem, it would stretch that motivating "character progression part" a bit, would allow more builds (especially some interesting hybrids) and would increase the level span of the "peasant" classification, which should be a good argument for most players  :wink:


7. Buff armour.

Currently there is only little use in using light armour, as the protection is close to wearing no armour. On the other hand there is little use in wearing plate armour, because heavy armour offers almost the same protection. Stretching the range of armour values and implementing a small "jump" between cloth armour and light armour could improve things a bit. That way you can actually FEEL the armour you are wearing. I am perfectly fine with increasing the weight of the heaviest armours to implement a tradeoff.


8. Buff some classes again.


All those changes could create some room for buffing some classes again. I am thinking mainly of archers and cavalry, especially heavy cavalry which is basically non existant in the game. But be carefull with buffing throwers, as they have a few very ugly mechanics which can easily lead to everybody using backup throwing weapons, leading to a lot of ranged spam and degenerating melee to short ranged combat.


9. Revert the turn speed nerf to a certain degree

Weapons should turn slower proportionally to their length and weight. Longer and heavier weapons should turn much slower than for example short 1hd weapons.


10. Implement some of the minor suggestions around here.

Things like making archers and crossbows switch ammo types, implementing "half slots", knocking cav out of the saddle, displaying the W/L ration on the webside and so on.



Dang, again it got a huge wall of text. But it's divided into points, and they are quite self explanatory, and if not there's not much to read for the particular point.

You trust the dev team enough to competently code any of that shit? Lel.
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Grumbs on November 22, 2012, 05:38:28 pm
I agree Vibe. First thing that pissed me off last night was Tenne's arrow from 200 meter distance and I didn't even see it coming...

Ranged in cRPG is extremely annoying, there is no other game that has rage inducing range class like cRPG.

Although there were some really cool folks playing last night on EU1, playing cRPG feels like beating a dead horse.

Also horse riding.. do you have any idea how silly that looks like after you come back from a long pause? Yes, cRPG is the only game with mounted combat but horse riding is a joke.

Mount and Blade 2 needs to improve a lot. I'll be truly disappointed if they change a thing or two and realease it as a sequel.

If you play Warband regularly, game seems perfectly normal. But if you forget about it for some time, first contact after that is horrible but it's gets better after some time because you get used to it. This is 4th time that happens to me.

Graphics are perfectly fine, a bit outdated but I don't mind it at all. But everything else is... actually only good thing is complexity of the gameplay. Animations, the overall feel of the game is card box fighting, always been it's just that you get used to it. They need to heavily improve on that.

Also night time has to go or there should be put torches on the battlefield every few meters. I've never liked Thief like aspect of M&B.

The silliness of horse riding is a good point. They're more like vehicles from a BF game skinned to look like horses than actual animals ridden around. Turning on a dime, hit a tree and they just stop, rider face plants and just gets up (while horse models blocks hits), magic shields that protect miles away from where they're held. Bumping that doesn't harm the animal at all or make it stumble and bumps slashes that hit the player far away from where they are. I wouldn't mind if it was for balance, but its clearly not.
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Kafein on November 22, 2012, 06:12:46 pm
The silliness of horse riding is a good point. They're more like vehicles from a BF game skinned to look like horses than actual animals ridden around. Turning on a dime, hit a tree and they just stop, rider face plants and just gets up (while horse models blocks hits), magic shields that protect miles away from where they're held. Bumping that doesn't harm the animal at all or make it stumble and bumps slashes that hit the player far away from where they are. I wouldn't mind if it was for balance, but its clearly not.

You forgot horses that are blocked when humans stand in front of them. And horses so delicate they don't do harm when they trample people. Also, horses that can be reared from behind with a pointy stick. Horses in cRPG are far from turning on a dime, or at least not when going faster than people, which kinda balances out how the rider can have total and exact control of his horse.

Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Gravoth_iii on November 22, 2012, 06:33:24 pm
Ohai!
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Kafein on November 22, 2012, 06:51:37 pm
Ohai!
(click to show/hide)

I honestly don't think heavy armor is really better than medium, or at least not on average. In some situations heavy armor is nice (when having crippling agility is ok) but most often it does more to kill you than to save you. I don't think medium armor is much better either but IMO the upkeep differences have become unjustified from a balance point of view.
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Nordwolf on November 22, 2012, 07:13:53 pm
The reason cRPG became so much more boring is because building your character became something like:
"Choose the best build out there that I don't really enjoy more than some otheres, but those are too nerfed and this one is not. This build is better because it has got less disadvantages."

And there are one or two builds like these for given class. Or not at all for some classes.

First major move to this state - was lvl cap, yes, it was needed, and really gameplay was still more fun after that than now.
Next - a lot of nerf without much buff.
After that and during all the time - improving internet technology, so that more people have got less ping and need faster combat.
And more and more and more decreasing of gameplay abilities.

Why I think there was nerfing but not buffing? Because nerfing one class instead of finetuning a lot of other classes and playstyles is easier.
But why not to buff partially? Like you do it with nerfs. Archers op and annoying? Buff ppl run speed and cavalry. Cavalry too much backstabbing and bumping? Buff infantry and so on.


My solution? Ok it's not purely mine, a lot of people suggested it:

RAISE lvl cap. ~38lvl=33 or so probably

Change xp&gold system
http://forum.meleegaming.com/suggestions-corner/xpgold-gain-system/msg640872/#msg640872
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Gravoth_iii on November 22, 2012, 07:36:32 pm
I honestly don't think heavy armor is really better than medium, or at least not on average. In some situations heavy armor is nice (when having crippling agility is ok) but most often it does more to kill you than to save you. I don't think medium armor is much better either but IMO the upkeep differences have become unjustified from a balance point of view.

Well when i tried a heavy armour, went from 10 weight to 20, but also got a massive body armour boost, i felt so goddamn tanky. I felt very little movement speed loss, even though i gained 10 weight i could still run fast and do fancy meneuvers (might be because of 9 athl though ololo) but there was definitely a massive difference in bulkyness. And even with that heavy armour i didnt lose much cash.. It was a 17k armour.
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Andy on November 22, 2012, 07:48:54 pm
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Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Leshma on November 22, 2012, 08:00:35 pm
Actually, after "coming back" I have two options in mind. One is playing for a bit til I reach enough XP to retire (and beat Chagan). Second option is to buy training grounds and make that 42/3 char I was thinking about. Before that I was thinking about hybrids but at the moment nothing besides str build is appealing to me. Riding is boring, ranged is boring. Only full tincan could keep me interested at this point (heaviest possible armor and something really nasty like that Persian Battle Axe).

Wpf change could ruin my idea but frankly speaking I don't see such huge change coming in next few months, if ever. I doubt chadz will improve cRPG in next year, if it survives that much.
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Rage_Guy on November 22, 2012, 09:00:06 pm
Dezilagel just wanted to say:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: owens on November 23, 2012, 05:50:06 am
This mod really needs more provocative female outfits.

Sex sells.


Also nerf PK
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Kafein on November 24, 2012, 02:46:50 pm
Actually, after "coming back" I have two options in mind. One is playing for a bit til I reach enough XP to retire (and beat Chagan). Second option is to buy training grounds and make that 42/3 char I was thinking about. Before that I was thinking about hybrids but at the moment nothing besides str build is appealing to me. Riding is boring, ranged is boring. Only full tincan could keep me interested at this point (heaviest possible armor and something really nasty like that Persian Battle Axe).

Wpf change could ruin my idea but frankly speaking I don't see such huge change coming in next few months, if ever. I doubt chadz will improve cRPG in next year, if it survives that much.

If you go 42/3, you obviously won't need something as damaging as a persian battle axe. I would advise going polearm for maximum douchebagness. Glaive, pike, long maul... that kind of things.
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Overdriven on November 24, 2012, 03:30:59 pm
Protip: Melee-only server. Oh, it was fun... nōt.

Yeah people forget that when it's melee only they actually have to fight others. No free kills on poor defenceless ranged. Where's the fun in that!
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Bonze on November 24, 2012, 04:11:06 pm
actually Crpg need more people ..servers are empty .. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: BlackMilk on November 24, 2012, 04:17:33 pm
actually Crpg need more people ..servers are empty .. :rolleyes:
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Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: darmaster on November 24, 2012, 07:29:35 pm
1. i just love battle mode: you die, you're dead. that's why i prefer it to siege and strategus.
5. NEIN NEIN 9 9 NO FUCK NO
4. agree.
7. agree.
8. i think the balance is quite good at the moment, especially for archery.
11. am i the only one who thinks actually agi builds deal too much damage? maybe this is linked with point 7

the rest is fine for me
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Arjay on November 25, 2012, 04:14:25 am
Don't forget pink hair and cross-dressing.

I agree pink hair and crossdressing would change the dynamics of every strategy known to man.
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Havoco on November 25, 2012, 04:35:40 am
Downvoted OP because it violated jokers 100 word limit.





And also because there's no einstein video.
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Kajia on November 25, 2012, 07:27:02 pm
what I liked about the OP:
pretty much all you said.

except:
The game is very slow at the moment, and you need a lot of hits to kill somebody.
I ... am not sure if serious, but I disagree. I think the games speed didn't really get slower, big weapons still behave like chopsticks, some others are too fast to even notice (katana/wakizashi, but maybe that's just me), spamming remains a viable tactic after all, and feinting is the new spamming, especially with Greatswords. but certainly, people are more skilled on average. maybe that's why it seems to be slower: some players get more considerate, because the other guy might be a skilled blocker. I might add a question: do we want faster gameplay, or do we want more exciting fights? fast and exciting are not the same thing.
raising the level cap is an option, but only if the game mechanics get improved to a point where speed and strength are not the only parameters for winning.
also, "a lot of hits to kill somebody" is exaggerating. I roll with 7IF and 49 armor, and I still die from 4 hits sometimes, which isn't that many. but here, what you said about armor is exactly what I think too.

hehe! I like how your texts get shorter and shorter every time  :lol:  I really feel the same pressure for my essays too. it's this voice in my head: "no-one will ever read this!"
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Dezilagel on November 25, 2012, 07:51:10 pm
Protip: Melee-only server. Oh, it was fun... nōt.

I liked it  :oops:
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Radament on November 26, 2012, 04:06:52 am
full loot & permadeath
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: What cRPG needs (IMHO) - yet another emotional principle discussion
Post by: Joker86 on November 26, 2012, 01:09:26 pm
also, "a lot of hits to kill somebody" is exaggerating. I roll with 7IF and 49 armor, and I still die from 4 hits sometimes, which isn't that many.

This was directed mainly to archers and cavalry, which used to be a LOT deadlier in older times.