cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Rumblood on November 20, 2012, 06:26:44 am

Title: String your bow
Post by: Rumblood on November 20, 2012, 06:26:44 am
Here's the proposal to replace the arrow weight. The goal is to address the kiting archer without penalizing the other valid playstyles.

An archer must have a strung bow in order to use it. Back in ye olden days, you didn't run around with your bow strung up all the time. So here's the proposal:

While using a strung bow, archers receive a 50%athletics penalty. Press whatever key to unstring it and run around with 100% athletics.

While unstrung, you can't use your bow. Press left click and it should go through a timer the same as reloading an arbalest. Once it is restrung, you may use it again, but are back to 50% athletics.

So an archer trying to kite will be easily caught, or to get speed, must suffer the same penalty as a xbow and find a place to hide to restring their bow after running away.

Archers who have the balls to break out their melee weapon don't suffer from slow footwork.
Archers who use light bows but don't kite won't suffer their arrows flying only 50 feet due to the reduced arc because of the extra weight of the arrows.

What do you think?

Title: Re: String your bow
Post by: Rumblood on November 20, 2012, 07:01:18 am
I posted this one separate for its own + and -.

You could also allow the unstrung bow to function as a quarterstaff. I would only allow 2 slot bows to function this way. That would give you two types of archers.
Big hitters who can turn their bow into a melee weapon that can easily be damage balanced by the dev's to decide just how good this type would be in melee.
Fast low damage builds with a 1 handed weapon.
Title: Re: String your bow
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on November 20, 2012, 07:07:53 am
Now here's something new. Not bad but I guess only very few archers will like it and its probably a lot to code.

+1 anyway for the thinking
Title: Re: String your bow
Post by: Warcat on November 20, 2012, 07:19:52 am
I posted this one separate for its own + and -.

You could also allow the unstrung bow to function as a quarterstaff. I would only allow 2 slot bows to function this way. That would give you two types of archers.
Big hitters who can turn their bow into a melee weapon that can easily be damage balanced by the dev's to decide just how good this type would be in melee.
Fast low damage builds with a 1 handed weapon.

Neither of those really fit the type of archers I want. Which is light damage archer with lots of arrows and enough speed to avoid melee guys and have very few if any deaths. But I only really care about archery in strat anyway. Either way, melee weapons are a waste of space archers should be using for more arrows.
Title: Re: String your bow
Post by: Pejlaen on November 20, 2012, 10:03:03 am
Something like this would be great, I would reeally prefer this as a solution though if it was possible to code/mod;
http://forum.meleegaming.com/suggestions-corner/reduced-movement-speed-for-2-3-seconds-after-stringing-your-bow/
Title: Re: String your bow
Post by: Kafein on November 20, 2012, 10:49:34 am
Nice idea, not sure if possible with the current resources of the mod.
Title: Re: String your bow
Post by: Piok on November 20, 2012, 11:57:38 am
Slightly increase number of blots/arrows in quiver and allow use only one quiver.
Nice easy and will solve lot of problems including constant whining for 0.5, 0.25, 1.5 slot items and will make HA,HX fun for everyone.
Title: Re: String your bow
Post by: Rumblood on November 20, 2012, 12:16:58 pm
Nice idea, not sure if possible with the current resources of the mod.

I considered that. I think it might be simulated in this manner.

While bow is in hand, archers suffer the 50% penalty. They can switch to a melee weapon for 100% athletics. Now here is the sketchy part. When the archer switches back to the bow, drag out the animation for 3-5 seconds or make it cycle through a take it out, put it away, take it out, put it away, take it out cycle automatically. Just somehow make it take longer to switch back to the bow.
Title: Re: String your bow
Post by: Moncho on November 20, 2012, 12:24:54 pm
hmmm what about hybrid archers? Noone ever thinks about them :(
I quite like the suggestion, if a way is found to make hybrid archers who constantly switch between melee and ranged weapons do not get hit too much
Title: Re: String your bow
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on November 20, 2012, 04:22:29 pm
Unstringing your bow should also have a timer though, else kiting would still be too functional.
Title: Re: String your bow
Post by: Jarlek on November 20, 2012, 04:43:56 pm
Unstringing your bow should also have a timer though, else kiting would still be too functional.
What about sheathing your bow automatically unstrings it?

OR

Stringed bows are unsheathable and dropped when switching unless you unstring them?
Title: Re: String your bow
Post by: Strider on November 20, 2012, 05:03:00 pm
This is a great idea. It's a whole different perception of archery, but at least it'll work better than archery right now. Balancing not obliterating.  8-)
Title: Re: String your bow
Post by: BlueKnight on November 20, 2012, 06:21:11 pm
You could also allow the unstrung bow to function as a quarterstaff. I would only allow 2 slot bows to function this way. That would give you two types of archers.
Big hitters who can turn their bow into a melee weapon that can easily be damage balanced by the dev's to decide just how good this type would be in melee.
Hitting enemies in melee with a bow? Don't know if you know but Bows are kinda sensitive and hitting enemies with your bow not only won't damage your enemies but also will destroy your bow.

I would suggest just a well thought balance of the slot system, maybe it would force to increase amount of arrows in 1 bag or something but slot rebalance seems best way to make archers try to defend themselves.

What is more, it seems shitty that you hold your bow in 1 hand and arrow in other hand but with a smaller bow you can take melee weapon and with bigger bow you can't (you can but it's 0 slot-shiet anyway). Maybe increasing amount of arrows in 1 bag would kinda excuse the weight of a bag and would make archers have a slot for some 1-slot, self-defence, chance-giving weapon.
Title: Re: String your bow
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on November 21, 2012, 11:46:57 am
Maybe increasing amount of arrows in 1 bag would kinda excuse the weight of a bag and would make archers have a slot for some 1-slot, self-defence, chance-giving weapon.

Get a wooden stick. 0 slot, blunt damage no requirement, knockdown, 99 speed, can be used to block, 0 upkeep. It has only advantages.
Title: Re: String your bow
Post by: Kafein on November 21, 2012, 05:03:14 pm
Get a wooden stick. 0 slot, blunt damage no requirement, knockdown, 99 speed, can be used to block, 0 upkeep. It has only advantages.

The tiny hammer some archers have is not that hard to use when you have an advantage of 3 or more ATH points on top of super light armor. A single error and you are dead, but if you block carefully you won't have any problem hitting.
Title: Re: String your bow
Post by: Adamar on November 21, 2012, 05:25:19 pm
I dont think so. This would keep me locked as a meleer if the enemy gang got too close, for the rest of the round. Turning their backs on an archer would no longer have a consequence.
Title: Re: String your bow
Post by: Rumblood on November 21, 2012, 10:17:10 pm
I dont think so. This would keep me locked as a meleer if the enemy gang got too close, for the rest of the round. Turning their backs on an archer would no longer have a consequence.

If they turn their backs, restring your bow  :?
Title: Re: String your bow
Post by: Loki on November 21, 2012, 10:44:24 pm
Instead of more nerfs to archery how about increasing the accuracy so archers can afford to put wpf into a melee weapon. Kiting. Isn't even a problem as far as I'm concerned.
Title: Re: String your bow
Post by: Adamar on November 21, 2012, 10:49:54 pm
If they turn their backs, restring your bow  :?

Then they'll just come back and keep me bowstrated.
Title: Re: String your bow
Post by: zagibu on November 22, 2012, 12:07:23 am
Maybe arrows should just start 2m away from the bow, so that it would always miss a close target.
Title: Re: String your bow
Post by: Belatu on November 25, 2012, 03:16:50 pm
I see good ideas in the op. Original and seems even like fun at least to try,

BUT

I think the problem could be seen in different way

for me the question is not how to dont let an archer to run away, but WHY an archer run?

(click to show/hide)

because they suck so much and their archer build is not allowed to be hybrid

The xbow users run from melee? no. Well, a litle bit but not so much in my opinion

(click to show/hide)

because the have some chances to survive since their hybrid builds let them to fight more or less



So in my opinion, It could be nice to think in how can you allow to let archers to defend themselves in melee without breaking the game balance.

some ideas:

- special weapons for archers where archering wpf also affect to that kind of item
- let the PD affect to (some) melee weapons
- make a big cap for archery so people who get high levels have to spend their points in other things rather than archery

I am sure my bad english can lead to bad understanding, but I think good people will get what I say



Title: Re: String your bow
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on November 25, 2012, 04:54:55 pm
Maybe arrows should just start 2m away from the bow, so that it would always miss a close target.
This is a fantastic idea, facehug shooting just 'cause you can't aim is lame, should also apply to xbows and maybe throwing as well though.
Title: Re: String your bow
Post by: Malaclypse on November 25, 2012, 05:53:58 pm
words

Archers suck in melee because they choose not to make a hybrid build, which is easily do-able at level 30, and even more easily done at higher levels. At level 30 you can still go 18/18, putting 150 in archery, 50 in one-hand or two-hand (you honestly don't even need proficiency for either of those- the 6 PS afforded by a hybrid build is more than enough to work with, in my experience) and have a build that's decent at both ranged and close combat. Instead of going for that, though, the trend has been more agi, more athletics, even more proficiency in archery, for whatever reason. Probably the reason is that most archers just plain don't ever want to have to fight in melee, sadly.
Title: Re: String your bow
Post by: Moncho on November 25, 2012, 06:26:08 pm
Having extensive experience as a hybrid archer, I can tell you that is not the case.
Ok, you will be mediocre in two things, but if you compare that to a 18/24 archer or a 18/21 melee, both attainable at lvl 30, you are in quite a disadvantage.
The wpf in archery truly matters, unlike with crossbows, where you can do well with even 0 wpf... And as a hybrid, you will have problems when going for headshots, and it is better to just aim for the body Also, you need to spend 6 skill points vs 0, which is another problem.
Also, instead of 18/18, I prefer the 15/21 archer hybrid, decent accuracy and melee, at the cost of being a little mosquito when your arrows hit. And with 6 PS not so much, but with only 5, you need around 100ish wpf in order not to glance everywhere (or use blunt/pierce).
Also, low wpf means more repairs, and with the low PD you are better using bodkins, so it is a very expensive build even with medium armor.
Another reason is that even if you hit with most your arrows and then do well in melee, you might get extensive damage to the enemy team, but you hardly ever kill anyone. I still remember getting almost 200 points with 0 kills in siege a couple of times...
Title: Re: String your bow
Post by: Belatu on November 25, 2012, 06:34:58 pm
Archers suck in melee because they choose not to make a hybrid build, which is easily do-able at level 30, and even more easily done at higher levels. At level 30 you can still go 18/18, putting 150 in archery, 50 in one-hand or two-hand (you honestly don't even need proficiency for either of those- the 6 PS afforded by a hybrid build is more than enough to work with, in my experience) and have a build that's decent at both ranged and close combat. Instead of going for that, though, the trend has been more agi, more athletics, even more proficiency in archery, for whatever reason. Probably the reason is that most archers just plain don't ever want to have to fight in melee, sadly.

And if you say it is as good as you say. Why people doesnt choose that way? those last points matters a lot

as Moncho said in the last message, very well said, it is what happens in fact. Because the fact is different than theory.

So i think it could be very wise to ask ourselves again what can devs implement ingame so archers doesnt have to flee all the time

thanks
Title: Re: String your bow
Post by: Rumblood on November 25, 2012, 08:57:50 pm
Maybe arrows should just start 2m away from the bow, so that it would always miss a close target.

This is a fantastic idea, facehug shooting just 'cause you can't aim is lame, should also apply to xbows and maybe throwing as well though.

You two don't belong in this thread because you obviously don't play the game. You CANNOT face hug shoot, period. There is an auto-stun that happens and disrupts the ranged player as if they got kicked anytime another player gets within 2m of the ranged player. FFS, if you are going to make comments, at least know how the game works  :idea:
Title: Re: String your bow
Post by: Rumblood on November 25, 2012, 09:03:53 pm
Archers suck in melee because they choose not to make a hybrid build, which is easily do-able at level 30, and even more easily done at higher levels. At level 30 you can still go 18/18, putting 150 in archery, 50 in one-hand or two-hand (you honestly don't even need proficiency for either of those- the 6 PS afforded by a hybrid build is more than enough to work with, in my experience) and have a build that's decent at both ranged and close combat. Instead of going for that, though, the trend has been more agi, more athletics, even more proficiency in archery, for whatever reason. Probably the reason is that most archers just plain don't ever want to have to fight in melee, sadly.

Let me explain it to you in melee terms. Lets pretend that with less than 50 wpf, when you swing your weapon it doesn't matter which way you twitch your mouse. It will randomly go in one of the 4 directions. With 100 WPF, you can overhead no problem, but gesture one of the other 3 directions and you get a random direction. At 135 WPF you can overhead or thrust as you want, but side swings will still be random. Finally, at 150 WPF it does what you want 90% of the time, but still with a 10% random factor. At around 170 WPF, finally your weapon will swing the direction you are telling it to swing.

Now, would you stop before 170 WPF? Neither does an archer who prefers that an arrow miss because he sucks, not because of a random dice roll to determine direction of flight.
Title: Re: String your bow
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on November 25, 2012, 09:05:23 pm
You two don't belong in this thread because you obviously don't play the game. You CANNOT face hug shoot, period. There is an auto-stun that happens and disrupts the ranged player as if they got kicked anytime another player gets within 2m of the ranged player. FFS, if you are going to make comments, at least know how the game works  :idea:
I've sorta been playing ranged for over half a year, while I'm currently banned so if they have recently made the bump distance about 10 times larger than it was before as you're claiming then I greatly apologize for my mistake... ...but if not, then the stun thing is so horribly small that archers and xbows can get so up in your face that they can shot through your freaking shield, shooting at such distances where you really can't possibly miss unless you're using a throwing weapon and got really low wpf is extremely lame.
Title: Re: String your bow
Post by: Rumblood on November 25, 2012, 09:29:34 pm
It is large enough that I get interrupted at the same distance that I used to have time to switch to a melee weapon and put up the appropriate block. Now I have to take my weapon out at least 2 seconds sooner to avoid the auto-stun and auto-kill. That large enough for you?
Title: Re: String your bow
Post by: Robert on November 25, 2012, 09:54:31 pm
Nice OP

ARCHERY
You spend lvls 1-25 thinking is this bow doing any dmg at all?
You then spend half your time trying catch up with your team because you run like a slug.
You make no coin as eveything you need to use cost loads to repair.
You spend all your time shooting Horses only to then get called a my old friendrcher.
You have to stand still, switch to first person, then zoomed just to try and get a hit from med to long distance.
You twich as your very vunerable to all other ranged CAV and to sneaky fast melee in shooting stance.
You put up with twerps in your team who think its a good time to run in front of you just b4 you shoot - POW TK HS VOTE BAN :rolleyes:.
You then get on forums to see everyone wants them nerfed more rather that take points from there PS for ATH :lol:

I find -
1/ low lvl bows are crap without VERY high PD and wp, leaves no spare points for PS IF etc = runaway.
2/ It cost to much to go viable hybred like Xbow and if you use best bows n arrows you can only afford cloth and 0 slot weapon = runaway.
3/ It's pointless for ranged spec to fight melee spec = runaway.
4/ If you increase accuracy so archers can put points in PS/IF you will then get OverPowerd posts.

There have been meny good ideas - keep them coming.
Title: Re: String your bow
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on November 25, 2012, 10:11:16 pm
It is large enough that I get interrupted at the same distance that I used to have time to switch to a melee weapon and put up the appropriate block. Now I have to take my weapon out at least 2 seconds sooner to avoid the auto-stun and auto-kill. That large enough for you?
Nope.
Title: Re: String your bow
Post by: Jarlek on November 25, 2012, 11:35:01 pm
You two don't belong in this thread because you obviously don't play the game. You CANNOT face hug shoot, period. There is an auto-stun that happens and disrupts the ranged player as if they got kicked anytime another player gets within 2m of the ranged player. FFS, if you are going to make comments, at least know how the game works  :idea:
And that stun only comes if the enemy is doing an attack of their own, with a small delay. Unless you didn't notice?

This means if you hold a shot while a shielder closes in, you can just wait until he drops the block to try a swing and then quickly shoot him. Alternatively: if the shielder keeps holding the block to get really,REALLY close (or anticipating the "shoot when I drop my shield to try and attack), then just run around, do a jump, whatever, and shoot around the shield.

Granted, not that possible now, but used to be a major issue. Why? Because it gave archers a way to deal with shielders? No, because it made having a shield a worse idea when you charge an archer. That's always been one of my biggest issues. Not having a shield makes it easier to kill archers.
Title: Re: String your bow
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on November 26, 2012, 06:46:55 pm
What if a bow was just a piece of wood....and it required a string (new item). The string would be 0slot, but could improve the effects of the bow. Increase the number of arrows per quiver.

It would generate more variety in archers and also require a stringing to fire. (Simple weapon switch strings)

Weapon switches resets athletesics boost. So, when strung it slows you down and Unstrung you speed up.

I do think blocking with a bow should be allowed when its Unstrung, just no attack.