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cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Rumblood on November 13, 2012, 06:55:48 pm

Title: Last 10 rounds of Battle
Post by: Rumblood on November 13, 2012, 06:55:48 pm
How did it end?

1: Xbow hiding in hay - No archers left alive
2: Thrower running around on outskirts of map - No archers left alive
3: Lancer last alive - No archers left alive
4: Thrower last - No archers left alive
5: 1H/shield - No archers left alive
6: Thrower last - No archers left alive
7: Last 8 players all melee w/ xbow
8: 1h shielder last - 1 archer left alive on winning team
9: Thrower last - no archers left alive
10: 1h/shielder/xbow last - 1 archer left on winning team


Notice a trend? All that kiting? Where is it?
Title: Re: Last 10 rounds of Battle
Post by: oprah_winfrey on November 13, 2012, 07:01:13 pm
Quote from: Rumblood on November 13, 2012, 06:55:48 pm
How did it end?

1: Xbow hiding in hay - No archers left alive
2: Thrower running around on outskirts of map - No archers left alive
4: Thrower last - No archers left alive
6: Thrower last - No archers left alive
9: Thrower last - no archers left alive


Notice a trend? All that kiting? Where is it?

Sounds like kiting to me...but I am sure you are talking about archers kiting, in which case they kite quite often.
Title: Re: Last 10 rounds of Battle
Post by: Joker86 on November 13, 2012, 07:21:36 pm
Quote from: Rumblood on November 13, 2012, 06:55:48 pm
Notice a trend? All that kiting? Where is it?

It was removed in the last patch.
Title: Re: Last 10 rounds of Battle
Post by: Gurnisson on November 13, 2012, 07:38:32 pm
Quote from: Joker86 on November 13, 2012, 07:21:36 pm
It was removed in the last patch.
Title: Re: Last 10 rounds of Battle
Post by: oprah_winfrey on November 13, 2012, 07:39:44 pm
Btw grann pappy, iirc your archer only had 3 athletics, so you werent a kiting archer anyway. As such, shouldnt you be happy about the patch since you get more wpf now (buffed)
Title: Re: Last 10 rounds of Battle
Post by: Rumblood on November 13, 2012, 08:04:49 pm
Quote from: oprah_winfrey on November 13, 2012, 07:39:44 pm
Btw grann pappy, iirc your archer only had 3 athletics, so you werent a kiting archer anyway. As such, shouldnt you be happy about the patch since you get more wpf now (buffed)

Actually, I had 9 athletics last build and generally like to have at least 7, but you are right, I wasn't kiting anyhow. I used those athletics to run out into the middle of an open field to dance with the ponies. It was fair. I could dodge well enough to avoid 95% of horse bumps and lances. When it came to melee, I had enough footwork to get those unexpected dash in and mace to the face options for the occasional melee kill. It also let me easily maneuver around my teammates who don't care where the archer is drawing his bow at.
All of those things are 100% legitimate for the build, so yes, I get really annoyed that I lost my playstyle because of way too much complaining about something that was a very very very minor issue to a very very small segment of the population.  :mad:

Until it gets reverted, I'm going to do the occasional HA generation, always riding out of range, never even coming close to engaging with melee. I think to be spiteful, I'll also alter the order of my hit list from HX/HA, Xbow, Archer, thrower, melee. To melee, melee, xbow, melee, HX, melee, thrower, archer. If they nerf the HA, I'll switch to a HX generation and do the same thing.

Don't worry, I can adapt. I look forward to swimming in the newest river of tears.

Quote from: Joker86 on November 13, 2012, 07:21:36 pm
It was removed in the last patch.

What I didn't mention Joker, is that the reason no archers were left alive, is because there were ZERO archers on the server the first 5 or 6 rounds. So yeah, I guess they were removed last patch  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Last 10 rounds of Battle
Post by: Joker86 on November 13, 2012, 08:12:14 pm
Btw, just for your information, I do consider kiting during the round as kiting as well, not only at the end. And archer is a dangerous enemy, and I don't see why I should attack him at the end and go for other enemies, while he can constantly attack me as long as he can see me. That's close to the roofcamping problem.

Other classes have hard counters, while archers could literally attack anybody and had no particular counter at all. Complaining infantry was served off with the good advice to adapt and get a shield (= changing the class) or to not go for archers (= being dumb/suicidal). How about archers having to adapt now and bring a melee weapon? Live with your hard counter (shielders), as we have to live with ours. You can always start creating a "default habit" on the servers to make some kind of "archer nests", which can protect each other by concentrated fire on enemy targets, making it unneccesary to run away or fight in melee. Infantry makes clusters, archer should make nests. Adapt. (See how equipment change suggestions suck?)

I just want to add that I am in no way a fan of the latest changes to archery, but it's more the "how" which annoys me, not the "what", because if the devs still stick to battle mode in its current form there needs to be done something about kiting. (Btw. just inbe4 the suggestion comes up: no, increasing archer melee skills will neither help motivating most archers to fight in melee nor will it contribute to the overall class balance, just make archers stronger than they deserve balance-wise when they are finally forced to go melee).

If it would be me I would change the game mode to conquest, change the upkeep system to an equipment restriction system which actually works and buff archers and cavalry again. Just to let you know.

Btw. why does Gravoth_iii minus my post but when Gurnisson quotes me he gives a +?  :?  :lol:

Quote from: Rumblood on November 13, 2012, 08:04:49 pm
What I didn't mention Joker, is that the reason no archers were left alive, is because there were ZERO archers on the server the first 5 or 6 rounds. So yeah, I guess they were removed last patch  :rolleyes:

Remember the headshot-patch, where body damage got lowered and headshot damage increased? For some time we almost had no archers left... for some time...
Title: Re: Last 10 rounds of Battle
Post by: Rumblood on November 13, 2012, 08:24:42 pm
Quote from: Joker86 on November 13, 2012, 08:12:14 pm
Remember the headshot-patch, where body damage got lowered and headshot damage increased? For some time we almost had no archers left... for some time...

Hey I stayed! But then again, I had a MW Tatar bow and 175 wpf  :wink:
Title: Re: Last 10 rounds of Battle
Post by: Kafein on November 13, 2012, 08:25:18 pm
Quote from: Rumblood on November 13, 2012, 06:55:48 pm
How did it end?

1: Xbow hiding in hay - No archers left alive
2: Thrower running around on outskirts of map - No archers left alive
3: Lancer last alive - No archers left alive
4: Thrower last - No archers left alive
5: 1H/shield - No archers left alive
6: Thrower last - No archers left alive
7: Last 8 players all melee w/ xbow
8: 1h shielder last - 1 archer left alive on winning team
9: Thrower last - no archers left alive
10: 1h/shielder/xbow last - 1 archer left on winning team


Notice a trend? All that kiting? Where is it?

Looks like the patch did its job to me.

This is what happened in the 10 last Battle rounds before the patch :

1: 4 shielders dead - 3 archers alive
2: 1 melee cav dead - 1 archer alive
3: 2 pole and 3 2h dead - 1 archer alive
4: 1 shielder dead - 2 archers alive
5: 3 melee cav dead - 1 HA alive
6: 1 2h and one shielder dead - 2 archers alive
7: 2 pole dead - one xbowman alive
8: 1 archer dead - 2 shielders alive (although there was also 14 2h and pole guys before engaging the archer)
9: Shielder dead - 1 pole alive
10: One thrower dead - 1 shielder alive
Title: Re: Last 10 rounds of Battle
Post by: Rumblood on November 13, 2012, 08:37:38 pm
You missed the part where I said there were zero archers to be around to be alive  :idea:

What is obvious too is that this patch made the actual problem worse. What happened to those archers? Did they take up the path of the pure melee? Of course not, why should they?

The problem with ranged never was archers, kiting or non. It was the easy pocket ranged xbow that allows you to have all of your awesome melee skills and weapons and ARMOR and be able to kill at ranged with almost no downside. Melee doesn't even need the WPF from WM, but if they got some just toss it into the xbow for a bit more accuracy (not that you need it). They also fixed throwers (hurray!), but now those fully armored and skilled melee characters simply have another choice. With 5 WM you can have 100 wpf in throwing and 120 wpf in your melee weapon, more than adequate for BOTH.

That is what fills the server now.

So they took out the Archer hybrid, and simply replaced it with two other options.

THIS IS THE REAL FIX:

Make WPF matter for melee. Don't leave them with 100 WPF left over to toss into a ranged weapon. Make WPF matter for xbows. Don't let people be proficient in melee AND ranged.

In short, REMOVE HYBRIDS.

What you will then be left with is wimpy archers at range, the rare dedicated xbower, a couple throwers, and the rest infantry and cavalry. Ranged spam will be reduced by 75%, I guarantee it.

Then maybe you guys can get over your hard on for killing the archer class.  :P
Title: Re: Last 10 rounds of Battle
Post by: oprah_winfrey on November 13, 2012, 09:07:14 pm
Oddly enough, I retired into archery two days ago.
Title: Re: Last 10 rounds of Battle
Post by: Mr_Oujamaflip on November 13, 2012, 10:14:34 pm
Quote from: Rumblood on November 13, 2012, 08:37:38 pm
The problem with ranged never was archers, kiting or non. It was the easy pocket ranged xbow that allows you to have all of your awesome melee skills and weapons and ARMOR and be able to kill at ranged with almost no downside. Melee doesn't even need the WPF from WM, but if they got some just toss it into the xbow for a bit more accuracy (not that you need it). They also fixed throwers (hurray!), but now those fully armored and skilled melee characters simply have another choice. With 5 WM you can have 100 wpf in throwing and 120 wpf in your melee weapon, more than adequate for BOTH.

That is what fills the server now.

So they took out the Archer hybrid, and simply replaced it with two other options.

THIS IS THE REAL FIX:

Make WPF matter for melee. Don't leave them with 100 WPF left over to toss into a ranged weapon. Make WPF matter for xbows. Don't let people be proficient in melee AND ranged.

Add in a "your proficiency is too low" for melee weapons.
Title: Re: Last 10 rounds of Battle
Post by: Kafein on November 13, 2012, 10:24:12 pm
Quote from: Rumblood on November 13, 2012, 08:37:38 pm
You missed the part where I said there were zero archers to be around to be alive  :idea:

What is obvious too is that this patch made the actual problem worse. What happened to those archers? Did they take up the path of the pure melee? Of course not, why should they?

The problem with ranged never was archers, kiting or non. It was the easy pocket ranged xbow that allows you to have all of your awesome melee skills and weapons and ARMOR and be able to kill at ranged with almost no downside. Melee doesn't even need the WPF from WM, but if they got some just toss it into the xbow for a bit more accuracy (not that you need it). They also fixed throwers (hurray!), but now those fully armored and skilled melee characters simply have another choice. With 5 WM you can have 100 wpf in throwing and 120 wpf in your melee weapon, more than adequate for BOTH.

That is what fills the server now.

So they took out the Archer hybrid, and simply replaced it with two other options.

THIS IS THE REAL FIX:

Make WPF matter for melee. Don't leave them with 100 WPF left over to toss into a ranged weapon. Make WPF matter for xbows. Don't let people be proficient in melee AND ranged.

In short, REMOVE HYBRIDS.

What you will then be left with is wimpy archers at range, the rare dedicated xbower, a couple throwers, and the rest infantry and cavalry. Ranged spam will be reduced by 75%, I guarantee it.

Then maybe you guys can get over your hard on for killing the archer class.  :P

This posts highlights how you have no understanding of the problem.


Very few melee players complain about xbows because they don't kite. How OP they are or how OP archers are has no relevance to how important it is to fix kiting. At all. When kiting is gone for good or becomes a negligible issue (see HA/HC), then we can start talking about balance.
Title: Re: Last 10 rounds of Battle
Post by: Tears of Destiny on November 13, 2012, 10:28:14 pm
Quote from: Kafein on November 13, 2012, 10:24:12 pm
Very few melee players complain about xbows because they don't kite
The fuck they don't, visit NA where the majority of the dedicated crossbowmen have 7 or 9 athletics and kite the ever-living daylights out of every idiot stupid enough to chase them.
Title: Re: Last 10 rounds of Battle
Post by: Tzar on November 13, 2012, 10:42:09 pm
Quote from: Rumblood on November 13, 2012, 06:55:48 pm
How did it end?

1: Xbow hiding in hay - No archers left alive
2: Thrower running around on outskirts of map - No archers left alive
3: Lancer last alive - No archers left alive
4: Thrower last - No archers left alive
5: 1H/shield - No archers left alive
6: Thrower last - No archers left alive
7: Last 8 players all melee w/ xbow
8: 1h shielder last - 1 archer left alive on winning team
9: Thrower last - no archers left alive
10: 1h/shielder/xbow last - 1 archer left on winning team


Notice a trend? All that kiting? Where is it?

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Last 10 rounds of Battle
Post by: Digglez on November 13, 2012, 10:43:11 pm
there is a noticeable difference in 115-120 1h WPF & 148 if you go pure melee. 

The same isnt as true with speedy 2h like the bastard swords or katana which didnt need any sort of buff. 

Instead of going after hybrids you should get a better build or be asking to nerf 2h'ers with xbows.  Throwers arent your problem.
Title: Re: Last 10 rounds of Battle
Post by: IG_Saint on November 13, 2012, 11:46:39 pm
Gotta love NA guys arguing with EU people over an NA problem (crossbow sidearms)...

Also gotta love EU people arguing with NA guys over an EU problem (kiting archers)...
Title: Re: Last 10 rounds of Battle
Post by: Tydeus on November 14, 2012, 02:16:20 am
Seems to me that the crossbow needs a nerf and the Arbalest/Heavy Crossbow need a buff. Second, archers need a reason to not get athletics, one more PD or WM for 7 athletics is a shitty trade off, this needs to not be the case. WPF curve has to be changed so that it yields linear returns at the very least. Throwing currently suffers from the same thing archery suffered from in the last patch, 18/21~ is a jack-of-all trades build that can do everything extremely well and hardly loses out on any damage that someone with higher PT would have. The only saving grace is that throwers are often standing closer to their targets, so I would assume, like with archery, the additional PT will at least count for something.
Title: Re: Last 10 rounds of Battle
Post by: Rumblood on November 14, 2012, 04:06:11 am
Quote from: Kafein on November 13, 2012, 10:24:12 pm
This posts highlights how you have no understanding of the problem.

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Title: Re: Last 10 rounds of Battle
Post by: Smoothrich on November 14, 2012, 04:25:51 am
more ranged than ever before on na_1, throwers and xbows have gone up, archers have stayed the same.  nerf all throwing  and light/regular xbows, continue putting archers first on the chopping block when they get too popular again because its by far the most OP class in cRPG and kills the mod's popularity the most.

but right now xbows and throwing needs to be nerfed, badly.  archery doesn't need to be buffed, they still 2-3 shot heavy infantry builds like a joke from any range with perfect accuracy and can still kite when needed.
Title: Re: Last 10 rounds of Battle
Post by: Nightingale on November 14, 2012, 04:51:08 am
Quote from: Tears of Destiny on November 13, 2012, 10:28:14 pm
The fuck they don't, visit NA where the majority of the dedicated crossbowmen have 7 or 9 athletics and kite the ever-living daylights out of every idiot stupid enough to chase them.


I have no idea what you are talking about.  :wink:

Majority of Dedicated Crossbowmen is what? 6? Edit: NA!!!!

I have 8 athletics your argument is invalid.
Title: Re: Last 10 rounds of Battle
Post by: [ptx] on November 14, 2012, 10:11:14 am
Quote from: Gurnisson on November 13, 2012, 07:38:32 pm
Quote from: Joker86 on November 13, 2012, 07:21:36 pm
It was removed in the last patch.
Title: Re: Last 10 rounds of Battle
Post by: [ptx] on November 14, 2012, 10:15:17 am
Quote from: Tears of Destiny on November 13, 2012, 10:28:14 pm
The fuck they don't, visit NA where the majority of the dedicated crossbowmen have 7 or 9 athletics and kite the ever-living daylights out of every idiot stupid enough to chase them.
Happens on EU as well, as long as you are not too sight-impaired (bias?) to see them. I personally hate them more than any kiting archers.
Title: Re: Last 10 rounds of Battle
Post by: Gnjus on November 14, 2012, 11:01:56 am
Quote from: Rumblood on November 13, 2012, 06:55:48 pm
How did it end?

1: Xbow hiding in hay - No archers left alive
2: Thrower running around on outskirts of map - No archers left alive
3: Lancer last alive - No archers left alive
4: Thrower last - No archers left alive
5: 1H/shield - No archers left alive
6: Thrower last - No archers left alive
7: Last 8 players all melee w/ xbow
8: 1h shielder last - 1 archer left alive on winning team
9: Thrower last - no archers left alive
10: 1h/shielder/xbow last - 1 archer left on winning team


Notice a trend? All that kiting? Where is it?


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Come to EU1 bro. Still mostly rangers surviving rounds while melee die "heroic" death.
Title: Re: Last 10 rounds of Battle
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on November 14, 2012, 02:20:22 pm
Quote from: Tydeus on November 14, 2012, 02:16:20 am
Seems to me that the crossbow needs a nerf and the Arbalest/Heavy Crossbow need a buff.

Oh I would love to see that. And I wouldnt care if there is a minimum wpf required for xbows to handle them properly.
Title: Re: Last 10 rounds of Battle
Post by: Gurnisson on November 14, 2012, 03:12:02 pm
Nerf xbow damage across the board but make wpf increase damage? Nerf sidearm guys who don't invest wpf, small buff to the ones getting >150.
Title: Re: Last 10 rounds of Battle
Post by: Kafein on November 14, 2012, 07:21:46 pm
Quote from: Rumblood on November 14, 2012, 04:06:11 am
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I'm sorry, even though I can't know about how life is on NA, the mod is still mostly balanced around the EU metagame.


Besides, what I said still holds true. Even an unbalanced game is better than one with massive kiting.
Title: Re: Last 10 rounds of Battle
Post by: Smoothrich on November 14, 2012, 07:23:33 pm
if your post is about to defend kiting in any way, just don't post it.  no devs, balancers, or non-kiting archers are going to agree with you, so just don't post anymore

if it is a suggestion for making archers better in melee, sure.  but that has to come with a massive nerf to their ranged viability as well, because there's no point to buff archers
Title: Re: Last 10 rounds of Battle
Post by: Boss_Awesome on November 16, 2012, 12:26:56 am
I wish they would just stop fucking with archery.  Archers aren't getting valor, and cav and melee are the ones topping the score board.  What is the big deal if an archery wants to run a little bit>?  It's not like they are invincible.  They can be killed by range, run down by cav, run down by agi infantry, or suprised by slow ass str infantry.  Agi infantry and cav are much faster than most archers.  Dedicated crossbowmen are definitely much faster than archers.  The last patch added heavy arrows which reduced the ability of the archer to kite.  They can still kite a bit, but not as much. Kiting to a degree is necessary for the pure archer. 
Title: Re: Last 10 rounds of Battle
Post by: oprah_winfrey on November 16, 2012, 12:43:55 am
Quote from: Boss_Awesome on November 16, 2012, 12:26:56 am
I wish they would just stop fucking with archery.  Archers aren't getting valor, and cav and melee are the ones topping the score board.  What is the big deal if an archery wants to run a little bit>?  It's not like they are invincible.  They can be killed by range, run down by cav, run down by agi infantry, or suprised by slow ass str infantry.  Agi infantry and cav are much faster than most archers.  Dedicated crossbowmen are definitely much faster than archers.  The last patch added heavy arrows which reduced the ability of the archer to kite.  They can still kite a bit, but not as much. Kiting to a degree is necessary for the pure archer.

Agility melee has absolutely 0 chance of catching the average archer.
Title: Re: Last 10 rounds of Battle
Post by: Tears of Destiny on November 16, 2012, 12:56:29 am
Quote from: oprah_winfrey on November 16, 2012, 12:43:55 am
Agility melee has absolutely 0 chance of catching the average archer.


When wearing light armor, I can catch Dildos with my shielder, or for that matter anyone really  8-)
I'm assuming that Agility Melee is 24 AGI and up ofc, so I really question that statement of 'zero chance.'

EDIT: Then again, I have blown hundreds of millions of total experience playing all manner of range, so I know what I'm doing when it comes to hunting archers whether in a direct or indirect fashion. Fallen Collective Meta-Gaming for the win  8-)
Title: Re: Last 10 rounds of Battle
Post by: Malaclypse on November 16, 2012, 01:16:49 am
Quote from: oprah_winfrey on November 16, 2012, 12:43:55 am
Agility melee has absolutely 0 chance of catching the average archer.

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