cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Realism Discussion => Topic started by: Akynos on November 13, 2012, 11:36:10 am

Title: HBS vs Katana
Post by: Akynos on November 13, 2012, 11:36:10 am
Right,so all 2h enjoyed the buff, blablabla, let's consider the heavy bastard sword with the katana now:
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I guess you guys are smart enough to see what has to be done.
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: Joseph Porta on November 13, 2012, 11:38:43 am
i see now that they have to be removed entirely
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: _GTX_ on November 13, 2012, 11:39:27 am
Sup with ur crusade against 2h atm? :P

Anyway, u are correct. The HBS needs a little nerf, and the katana needs a little buff. That should do the trick, since it might be a little op right now.
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: Joseph Porta on November 13, 2012, 11:40:22 am
Quote from: _GTX_ on November 13, 2012, 11:39:27 am
Sup with ur crusade against 2h atm? :P

Anyway, u are correct. The HBS needs a little nerf, and the katana needs a little buff. That should do the trick, since it might be a little op right now.
only I do the fucking trick !@#)!@
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: Akynos on November 13, 2012, 11:46:05 am
Quote from: _GTX_ on November 13, 2012, 11:39:27 am
Sup with ur crusade against 2h atm? :P

Anyway, u are correct. The HBS needs a little nerf, and the katana needs a little buff. That should do the trick, since it might be a little op right now.

Hehe, I'm about to retire to go back to polearm, taking all the advantages I can ! :p
Nah, I like the katana and I don't want it to become a useless weapon. Realistically speaking, a katana has more piercing penetration than a longsword, yet in this game it doesn't. Its sole advantage was the decent damage for a great speed rating. Now the hbs has those advantages AND the thrust.And it costs twice less.
Buffing the katana would be fair.
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: Joseph Porta on November 13, 2012, 11:48:17 am
all you want is your bundle of sticks ninja weapon to be top notch killing machine with no way to counter it.

Katana's already wreck shit up when played by a decent player, at times I almost lose 80% hp with 51 body armor in a single hit.
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: Leesin on November 13, 2012, 11:49:21 am
Quote from: Akynos on November 13, 2012, 11:46:05 am
Hehe, I'm about to retire to go back to polearm, taking all the advantages I can ! :p
Nah, I like the katana and I don't want it to become a useless weapon. Realistically speaking, a katana has more piercing penetration than a longsword, yet in this game it doesn't. Its sole advantage was the decent damage for a great speed rating. Now the hbs has those advantages AND the thrust.And it costs twice less.
Buffing the katana would be fair.

Can you explain to me how you know this is a fact? plus looks balanced to me as it's less weight and more damage, the price from my memory is that high simply because it's a weeaboo tool.
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on November 13, 2012, 11:50:03 am
Quote from: Akynos on November 13, 2012, 11:46:05 am
Hehe, I'm about to retire to go back to polearm, taking all the advantages I can ! :p
Nah, I like the katana and I don't want it to become a useless weapon. Realistically speaking, a katana has more piercing penetration than a longsword, yet in this game it doesn't. Its sole advantage was the decent damage for a great speed rating. Now the hbs has those advantages AND the thrust.And it costs twice less.
Buffing the katana would be fair.


Arent there like 100 threads like this in the realism discussion...
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: Falka on November 13, 2012, 11:50:34 am
nvm  :lol: just increase price of the HBS, it should cost at least 10k if not more. Also, why everyone think HBS is such badass weapon, longsword is clearly better.

Quote from: Akynos on November 13, 2012, 11:46:05 am
Realistically speaking, a katana has more piercing penetration than a longsword
Wut?  :shock:
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: Akynos on November 13, 2012, 11:57:49 am
My source is not exactly the most reliable...an american youtube video comparing katana and longsword...you know what? scratch that 'realism' thing.

Thing is, it is still too expensive for what it is. Actually, HBS is now worth more than the top tier greatswords, seing how many people want to trade it .

I'll be looking at facts. Fact is, katana is not balanced compared to HBS. If you do not agree, then you can't judge properly.

Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: Lange on November 13, 2012, 11:58:48 am
Nobody knows why they buffed HBS.
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: Akynos on November 13, 2012, 12:03:49 pm
Quote from: Lange on November 13, 2012, 11:58:48 am
Nobody knows why they buffed HBS.

I keep getting the feeling that devs buff and nerf to the extremes.After that, it's a shitload of work for the community to give the feedback and balance their patches.
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: polkafranzi on November 13, 2012, 12:15:15 pm
You have to think that when discussing the price of the Katana, one has to take into consideration how much time is needed for the folding process, which weaboos are very proud to talk about (forgetting the crap quality of the metals mind you).  So the swordsmith slaving over each Katana needs to earn a decent buck or it's not worth his time.
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: Akynos on November 13, 2012, 12:16:51 pm
Quote from: polkafranzi on November 13, 2012, 12:15:15 pm
You have to think that when discussing the price of the Katana, one has to take into consideration how much time is needed for the folding process, which weaboos are very proud to talk about (forgetting the crap quality of the metals mind you).  So the swordsmith slaving over each Katana needs to earn a decent buck or it's not worth his time.

So you are saying that asian products are reputated to be overpriced whereas european wares are cheap?
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on November 13, 2012, 12:18:20 pm
Quote from: Akynos on November 13, 2012, 11:57:49 am
If you do not agree, then you can't judge properly.

lol... you'd love to be dictator wouldnt you  :D
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: Akynos on November 13, 2012, 12:21:29 pm
Quote from: Grumpy_Nic on November 13, 2012, 12:18:20 pm
lol... you'd love to be dictator wouldnt you  :D

I wouldn't mind :D although I am talking here of common sense, something that is not given to dictators
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: Tore on November 13, 2012, 12:23:56 pm
HBS is op compared to the Longsword too. Longsword should get 1+ speed 1+ trusth and and HBS should get 1+ swing or something like that imo.
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: Falka on November 13, 2012, 12:30:44 pm
Quote from: Tore on November 13, 2012, 12:23:56 pm
HBS is op compared to the Longsword too. Longsword should get 1+ speed 1+ trusth and and HBS should get 1+ swing or something like that imo.
Ye, sure, just give HBS and Longsword +9000 to each stat  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: Akynos on November 13, 2012, 12:33:30 pm
I think the buff itself was a mistake, but I thought that if I suggested a nerf everybody would lynch me :D
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: Thomek on November 13, 2012, 12:55:49 pm
The faster HBS is now better.. Wasn't that what you all wanted?

I don't quite understand the reasoning for the katana trading speed for damage.. Although the pierce buff was fair enough. In any case its better now than it was, if not as spammy.

I think the shift into making shorter weapons more viable is a good change, at least from the wep-range biased EU perspective. Combat can now be faster.. :)
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: Mlekce on November 13, 2012, 12:58:21 pm
katana is already unblockable so why not buff it more?   :rolleyes:
Also on mw 41 cut is so shit. right? it need at least 51 cut,crushtrough and bonus agains shields.
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: Thomek on November 13, 2012, 01:05:54 pm
It's not unblockable, and if it was, not any less unblockable than the much longer HBS..

Anyway.. I'm out of here.
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: IR_Kuoin on November 13, 2012, 01:09:09 pm
MW katana in with 9/30 will beat MW heavy bastards 12/27 build :P
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: SirCymro_Crusader on November 13, 2012, 01:13:26 pm
.
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: IR_Kuoin on November 13, 2012, 01:14:50 pm
Quote from: SirCymro_Crusader on November 13, 2012, 01:13:26 pm
Yes it will.....

Fucking Khorin at night, with ninja armour and katana beat my lovely bastard (sword)....plus i couldn't see the damn blade...if that gets buffed...i may cry

Can't see the blade? Lol SirBadsight? :lol:   

The Katana got a semi buff / nerf, more damage but less speed :cry:
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: Leshma on November 13, 2012, 01:18:32 pm
meh
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: BlindGuy on November 13, 2012, 01:18:58 pm
Quote from: Akynos on November 13, 2012, 11:46:05 am
Realistically speaking, a katana has more piercing penetration than a longsword....

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA THATS FUNNY!
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: Rebelyell on November 13, 2012, 01:28:30 pm
Quote from: BlindGuy on November 13, 2012, 01:18:58 pm
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA THATS FUNNY!
there was soo many threads about katana, there is soo much information in internet, there is human brain....
and wqe have that thread up every 2 weeks
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: BlindGuy on November 13, 2012, 01:56:57 pm
Quote from: Rebelyell on November 13, 2012, 01:28:30 pm
(click to show/hide)

What Bob wrote was:

Despite all the information available in this day and age about the relative hardness and brittleness of european and japanese steel, the different fighting styles and the different design aims of the japanese katana vs the european longsword, people quite capable of using their brain choose not to, and put forward this warped hollywood view of the katana.

The european longsword (and therefor the bastard sword, a very similar sword in all but name) was designed for a fighting style that involved stabbing and piercing armour, and almost bludgeoning with the blade, since a fairly unsharpened blade can still easily cut flesh but is less likely to warp and break when colliding with metal armour. Their PRIMARY focus when designing the longsword was the stab, since it is very fast, hard to parry, and is very effective against armour. The european steel used in both the armour and weapons WAS superior to Japanese steel of the time: this is not some ethnocentric remark, and does not reflect badly on the Japanese, it is simply they had poorer natural materials at hand.

The katana was, unlike the longsword (or bastard), was sharpened as much as possible, because the aim of the katana is the drawing slice: if you are swinging a longsword, it is best to swing it in an arc, but the katana you pull towards you as you swing, so it does not just cut, it slices. They honed the point of their katana because it can be useful to be able to stab an opponent, but the shape of the blade, the folding and forge welding of steel they used and their fighting style were ALL unsuitable for stabbing to be a primary concern.

It is worth bearing in mind that many men at arms and knights of europe would view a well made longsword as their primary weapon, with a dagger as a sidearm, and a buckler for catching speartips prior to rushing down the shaft and killing the spearman.

Not so with the japanese: the katana and tanto were both sidearms, and while of course many amazingly skilled swordsmen excisted and practised their art, once on a battlefield the vast majority would rely on: horse archery, the Nodachi (horse sword) and Naginata (a glaive or hafted blade), and the spear: Sure on horseback both european and japanese nobles would rely on a polearm, but samurai were horse archers very often, since horse archery IRL is very OP and they didnt gain their priviledged position in society by ASKING for it.


So: Longsword, great weapon
Katana: a badge of rank worn by nobles, but in combat a last ditch weapon.


Can we now please stop romatisizing that katana is so great. Its just a pretty average sabre, admitedly cosmetically apealling.
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: cmp on November 13, 2012, 02:04:51 pm
Aaand moved again.
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: BlindGuy on November 13, 2012, 02:06:16 pm
Quote from: cmpxchg8b on November 13, 2012, 02:04:51 pm
Aaand moved again.

Cheers CMP, the OP started the realism argument, couldn't let it stand :D
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: Falka on November 13, 2012, 02:56:28 pm
Quote from: cmpxchg8b on November 13, 2012, 02:04:51 pm
Aaand moved again.
Next time topic will be moved to spam  :wink:
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: Casimir on November 13, 2012, 04:41:03 pm
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Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: Akynos on November 13, 2012, 06:01:37 pm
(click to show/hide)

You obviously know more about these weapons than I do. I accept your argument. I was wrong.

It does not however change the fact that game-wise, thes two weapons are unbalanced.

And I would like to point out that my original post was NOT about realism. It merely was a side note from an unreliable source. Please, do not label this topic as a realism discussion about katana. It is about balancing these weapons so that they are fair stat-wise.

Cmp, please move this topic to the game balance section, if you are to move it at all.
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: Quentry on November 13, 2012, 07:45:21 pm
buff, buff, buff catana to  25 pierce!!!
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: MayPeX on November 14, 2012, 09:57:48 am
Quote from: Akynos on November 13, 2012, 11:57:49 am
My source is not exactly the most reliable...an american youtube video comparing katana and longsword...you know what? scratch that 'realism' thing.

Thing is, it is still too expensive for what it is. Actually, HBS is now worth more than the top tier greatswords, seing how many people want to trade it .

I'll be looking at facts. Fact is, katana is not balanced compared to HBS. If you do not agree, then you can't judge properly.

You should have stopped after you mentioned the source of your information, we all know what video you're talking about. The joke old, can you cut it out?
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: Akynos on November 14, 2012, 12:20:04 pm
Right, now that everyone had their say on the realist side of the comparaison, can we stick back to the topic?
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: Tibe on November 14, 2012, 01:16:19 pm
All I see from the comparison is that the costs are a little bit off. Should give the bastard equal cost of the katana imo, but thats really nothing to bitch about as the loommarket has made everbody rich anyway.  :rolleyes:

As for the stats.....seems perfectly fine and equally balanced to me. This is not threadworthy.
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: Akynos on November 14, 2012, 04:21:08 pm
Quote from: TiberiusX on November 14, 2012, 01:16:19 pm
All I see from the comparison is that the costs are a little bit off. Should give the bastard equal cost of the katana imo, but thats really nothing to bitch about as the loommarket has made everbody rich anyway.  :rolleyes:

As for the stats.....seems perfectly fine and equally balanced to me. This is not threadworthy.
I agree about the price being a small factor.
HBS has 10 more reach and 5 more thrusting damage. Thrust is the attack with the longest reach, therefore it is very important to the stats of a weapon.
If it is balanced, why does every 2h beg for a MW longsword (which is just the stronger version of the HBS) yet only RPing ninjas crave for katana?
I can accept the fact that the katana does not have the best looks, but even so, HBS being considered the best 2h weapon now, you'd at least expect the katana to be demanded if it was as good, wouldn't you?
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: Tibe on November 14, 2012, 04:59:34 pm
Comparing to the Katana, HBS is balanced. Its mainly about looks but also the lenght. HBS is considered to be the sexiest looking weapon in the game. And the fact that Danish and other such weapons  were nerfed into more of a supportweapon according to some players, the demand for bastardswords increased dramatically.

Katana is a weaboo weapon, which means in order to look even remotely awesome, you need weaboo armor, which really isnt as varied as euro/turk stuff. Also, due to its range, you cant take cav down as well as a jumphit with a HBS can. So the HBS is also slightly more versatile than a katana. But the katana compensates it with having 2 points more damage than HBS. It might not seem much but  2 points acctually count alot. Exdanisheroes who speak of "speednerf" can approve this. :lol: So its mainly about the lenght and looks really.
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: Rebelyell on November 14, 2012, 09:33:26 pm
+2 to dmg is massive buf

look at miadao now uber OP shit
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: Osiris on November 14, 2012, 09:55:27 pm
you pay extra for the privilege of being a weeaboo and tolerated :D 
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: Tibe on November 14, 2012, 10:09:56 pm
Quote from: Rebelyell on November 14, 2012, 09:33:26 pm
+2 to dmg is massive buf

look at miadao now uber OP shit

I couldnt really say, havent died to a single Miadaouser after the patch. I just lolstab them to death with my Gsword like a douche that I am.  8-)
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: Akynos on November 15, 2012, 12:18:16 pm
Quote from: Rebelyell on November 14, 2012, 09:33:26 pm
+2 to dmg is massive buf

look at miadao now uber OP shit

Miaodao is OP indeed. Shame it looks like shit.
Quote from: Osiris on November 14, 2012, 09:55:27 pm
you pay extra for the privilege of being a weeaboo and tolerated :D 
Hahaha fair enough, fair enough :D
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: Shaksie on November 15, 2012, 12:36:18 pm
I can say that having used both weapons quite a large amount; HBS is definitely better than Katana. I felt this way even before the Katana's "nerf" (I believe it was a nerf, the main factor that made Katana a good weapon was the speed). Now that HBS is faster, longer, has a better stab and is significantly cheaper while having a slightly weaker swing, I argue that it is quite a lot better than the Katana. They are both good weapons but comparatively the Katana could use some form of buff.
That being said, Katana was primarily used by Weaboos and roleplayers beforehand and it will always be this way; people crave aesthetics.

On a side note, I don't find the HBS model in any way attractive. I have a masterwork and I use Finalboss' heirloom pack but I find the Longsword much more attractive than the HBS, that being said the HBS is better for my build. :)
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: bilwit on November 20, 2012, 11:35:09 am
Quote from: Tore on November 13, 2012, 12:23:56 pm
HBS is op compared to the Longsword too. Longsword should get 1+ speed 1+ trusth and and HBS should get 1+ swing or something like that imo.

As if -1 length and -1 damage with +1 speed clearly makes it OP and superior.
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: Jarlek on November 20, 2012, 04:40:03 pm
Quote from: bilwit on November 20, 2012, 11:35:09 am
As if -1 length and -1 damage with +1 speed clearly makes it OP and superior.
If a weapon is not used by themselves and have 1 stat better than your own weapon, it's OP. The thinking of 90% of the playerbase.
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: Mr_Oujamaflip on December 05, 2012, 11:44:13 am
Well if you're comparing the two and want to make them balanced then just make the Katana cost in line with the bastard swords and then we're done. Also in regards to the nodachi being a more used primary weapon than the katana make it a bit more useful. Its simply not as good as the katana.
Title: Re: HBS vs Katana
Post by: Haboe on December 08, 2012, 01:03:04 am
Didnt bother reading the whole thing, but the extra damage and curved blade is what makes katana potentially better then HBS if it fits your style or fighting.