cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Formless on November 12, 2012, 05:44:06 pm

Title: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Formless on November 12, 2012, 05:44:06 pm
And now you know why 1handers are the boss: with a 2h bastard sword I walk left and forward, spamming right, and win. With a poleaxe I do a sideswing followed by an instastab and win. With a 1hander I must follow u as you fucking cowardly hold S key, I hit you over and over with something ugly and blunt then pull my shortsword and slit your throat. 1handers are the most stylish and coolest way to play. Its like using Scout or pumpgun is CS: its shit but puts nubs in their place once they realise they got owned with a gimped weapon.

BlindGuy said it best.  I laughed so hard when I read this.  Its so TRUE.  Big props to BlingGuy for verbalizing this so well. 

I use 1 hand no shield almost exclusively.  As much as I like 1 hand for its stylish and cool looks , sometimes using 1 hand makes me cry.  For the following reasons:

CON LIST

1.)  Short range of the weapon
Which leads to: 
a.) Always must keep range in the back of your mind       
b.)  Loss of initiative. Almost always start the fight with a block first and except that you will not be setting the pace for the fight.
c.) Forced to give chase and play in an aggressive head on style.  Can't play range games like a 2 hander or pole can.   

2.)  Low damage output, it takes much longer to kill a guy with a 1 handed weapon then it does with a 2 handed weapon or a Pole.  Killing with a 1 hander is taking more and more time as the average level of armour is going up in Crpg.  This leads to lower K/D scores, gives enemy team members more time to pitch in and help to kill you, allows your opponent more mistakes. 
3.)  Stupid amount of bounces even wit 7 ps -- I even bounced off a naked guy once with 7ps and a Tempered Elite Scimitar. I alt-x out of the game then and had a quiet lie down.  Allows your opponent more mistakes.
4.)  Right to left swing is dead slow.  (Have to be really careful using right to left swing against 2 handers as they can get an extra hit in breaking the ATTACK-BLOCK-ATTACK-BLOCK turn mechanic).
5.)  Stab does not work close up to the opponent.  It bounces close up.  Only useful at long ranges, but then you are outranged by the 2 hand stab so there is really not that much use for it.
6.)  Overhead misses allot. You can't turn with the opponent so tagging someone with Overhead is a 50/50 sort of thing.


PROS
1.) Stylish and elegant look of play makes me think of the old Hollywood movie dueling sequences.
2.) Left to right swing is fast
3.)  Good feint mechanics.

Summary:

1 hand no shield only has 1 completely effective swing, left to right.  Right to left is slow so you have to be careful using it.  Stab and overhead are not fully reliable.  Overall,  Don't bother using 1 hand no shield unless you really like the animation and are willing to take on all the Cons or unless you are bored and need a challenge when playing Crpg.

P.S 

Since I did not touch on board and shield my take on is that the attack animation for board and shield are too obvious given how good the player base has become.  I noticed that I do  much better without the shield then I do with it.

 



Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Casimir on November 12, 2012, 05:48:29 pm
I don't see the point of this thread? What discussion is there to be had?

Im fairly sure everyone agrees playing 1h no shield is self nerfing and is a weak play style used mostly for the expression of skill or indivuality.

Maybe if you were to have put this in the beginners section or formed it as a guide i would understand but you've really just asserted a basic understanding of game mechanics and balance, and presented it for discussion.
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: San on November 12, 2012, 05:54:50 pm
Another pro is that a chamber with a left swing or overhead (of a stab) is nigh unblockable without very good athletics/movement. I also think overhead is better than what you give it credit for. It's pretty reliable if you can follow the enemy. Shield gives players tincan movement. Going from 14 (overall light armor) to 20-22 total weight is huge.

I think right swing just needs to be sped up very slight amounts. I shouldn't be able to guarantee spam a 1h no matter his swing speed/positioning if I see the beginning of the right swing animation coming out.
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Kafein on November 12, 2012, 06:01:58 pm
I shouldn't be able to guarantee spam a 1h no matter his swing speed/positioning if I see the beginning of the right swing animation coming out.


This. Most good players nowadays start to swing after being blocked once (yes, don't fear the word, it's spam) and block only if actually needed. If you add to that how easy it is to move forward and sideways to glitch into the other player's model to make following you very hard, that adds up to spamming right swings with a 2h/pole while circling a shielder to the left = almost autowin.
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Rebelyell on November 12, 2012, 06:11:24 pm
4.)  Right to left swing is dead slow.  (Have to be really careful using right to left swing against 2 handers as they can get an extra hit in breaking the ATTACK-BLOCK-ATTACK-BLOCK turn mechanic).

just stop, it is better for you
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Tibe on November 12, 2012, 06:13:52 pm

....... glitch into the other player's model to make following you very hard, that adds up to spamming right swings with a 2h/pole while circling a shielder to the left = almost autowin.
'

Im inside you, ihihihihi.
This is the main reason this gameengine is.....not so good.
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: rustyspoon on November 12, 2012, 06:39:06 pm
Right-to-left swing is fine. As long as you're out of hiltslash range, you won't be outswung.
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Miwiw on November 12, 2012, 07:03:05 pm
Playing 1h without shield is as clever as playing a pure 2h/pole without either shield or throwing skill. There are so many builds that can be improved by going hybrid but people are ignorant and prefer to complain instead. : ))
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Kafein on November 12, 2012, 07:03:46 pm
Right-to-left swing is fine. As long as you're out of hiltslash range, you won't be outswung.

With the wonderful footwork abilities a shield allows you to have, this is not that easy to acheive. Also, having by far the shortest reach of the fight means you constantly have to be on the offense and using your w key a lot, making a backward move slower to start.
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Dezilagel on November 12, 2012, 07:07:13 pm
When I use my 1h the only thing that gets me spammed are my own stupid mistakes (unless it's randomspamming, but random is random).

Yeah, with a shorter wep you often have to block more against longer wep opponents if they have any skill with footwork, but it's still predictable and if you can see it coming you can often surprise them.


This. Most good players nowadays start to swing after being blocked once (yes, don't fear the word, it's spam) and block only if actually needed. If you add to that how easy it is to move forward and sideways to glitch into the other player's model to make following you very hard, that adds up to spamming right swings with a 2h/pole while circling a shielder to the left = almost autowin.

Only really bad shielders die to this. I'm not a very good shielder (getting used to the playstyle) and I've never been in a situation where I've felt that my opponent "autowon". Many people seem to enjoy trying it though, and I really enjoy leftswinging their faces of. C'mon, it's not hard.

And why would you block when it's not needed?  :?
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: BlindGuy on November 12, 2012, 07:09:14 pm
But a nice rightswing with a long 1hander can properly surprise ppl who think they arent in range :D

I believe Red and Teeth (dont know if they are still 1handers) abused that right swing bigtime, love it!
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Kafein on November 12, 2012, 07:33:45 pm
Only really bad shielders die to this. I'm not a very good shielder (getting used to the playstyle) and I've never been in a situation where I've felt that my opponent "autowon". Many people seem to enjoy trying it though, and I really enjoy leftswinging their faces of. C'mon, it's not hard.

I know that and I usually see it coming. Personally I die to this way too frequently because as I consider it super lame, I don't want to play with it, and end up not reacting as I should. Psychologic barriers :rolleyes:. I also don't like moving my camera as fast as some people force me to do this way, headaches -_- . I don't like that this forces me into a super dull direct attack cycle, at least for one round. If I feint or hold or do basically anything but attacking as fast as possible while turning my camera like a madman, I die. I'd like some choice on the matter. Finally, sometimes those people completely dissapear and pop in my back and that's just retarded. When people like Vibe or Cyber kill me, it's because they bait me into making an attack without actually having the time to complete it before they hit me, and that's the way I kill people too, although with less success.

From an objective point of view now, way too many players only rely on that cheap move to get kills. I will not throw names but really if you watch people playing it's evident they can hardly do anything else. Learn to block, get a long and damaging weapon and voila. Especially considering that player collisions should not be that glitchy in the first place, it's way too easy to pull off.
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Artyem on November 12, 2012, 07:37:58 pm
Oddly enough,  this thread makes me want to re-roll as a one hander, but that would require leaving behind my precious flamberge again (I can never trade it away, it's too glorious).  Only downside is that I have DSL and I live on a tiny peninsula that sticks straight out into the Pacific Ocean where we tend to get lots of storms (sup 500 + ping).
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: rustyspoon on November 12, 2012, 07:58:23 pm
Oddly enough,  this thread makes me want to re-roll as a one hander, but that would require leaving behind my precious flamberge again (I can never trade it away, it's too glorious).  Only downside is that I have DSL and I live on a tiny peninsula that sticks straight out into the Pacific Ocean where we tend to get lots of storms (sup 500 + ping).

That's the glory of STF. I'm constantly switching between a long maul build and a 1h no shield build. Good fun.
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: San on November 12, 2012, 08:06:57 pm
Right-to-left swing is fine. As long as you're out of hiltslash range, you won't be outswung.

If the enemy constantly strafes mostly to your right, it can be difficult unless you have a sizable movement speed advantage. In those situations, I mostly overhead.

Backing away and starting a right swing, then properly moving in is pretty great, though (esp without shield). Right swing also has some weird broken sweetspots early sweetspots for the blunt/pierce weapons or a held attack if you're strafing properly, way to your right side. Right swing has some neat tricks, but that's pretty much it.

I think the range on 1hs are fine. I actually prefer the 88-90 length ones the most, since I don't feel unwieldy in group fights. You just can't play distance, and instead get close and move away from their swings.
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Leshma on November 12, 2012, 08:17:34 pm
Pure 1h is about fun.
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Pentecost on November 12, 2012, 08:20:08 pm
I'm not sure whether it's just that I got better or the hitbox rework made it glance less than it did before, but the right swing, for me, is actually more dependable than the left swing now, simply because it has better range and you can turn into it more easily. Overhead and stab are kind of risky/situational after the turn speed change, but that's a different matter.

Formless: I was under the impression that 1h is balanced around the assumption that you will either be carrying a shield with it or that it is merely a sidearm to another (usually ranged) weapon. This is also why it has comparatively low cost and upkeep--it's probably not being used alone. Therefore, you probably should not be excluding the shield from the equation when you're comparing it to other melee weapon classes, as the majority of dedicated 1h users out there are shielders and not swashbucklers.

I mean, don't get me wrong; I would love it if the developers were to offer some kind of incentive to use 1h no shield and make it a more competitive playstyle than it is currently, but I suspect the chances of that happening are very low.
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Leshma on November 12, 2012, 08:21:37 pm
I mean, don't get me wrong; I would love it if the developers were to offer some kind of incentive to use 1h no shield and make it a more competitive playstyle than it is currently, but I suspect the chances of that happening are very low.

Paul has an excellent idea and knows how to implement it. Unfortunately for us, he has no time to finish it or he simply doesn't care anymore.
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: ednos on November 12, 2012, 08:27:43 pm
breaking the ATTACK-BLOCK-ATTACK-BLOCK turn mechanic

I'm new to the game, so forgive me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that breaking that static exchange is the beginning of the fight between any two melee players without shields, not just those with one-handed weapons. Successfully interrupting the rhythm gives you control over the next few moments until your opponent recovers and either reestablishes that rhythm or finds an opportunity to assert his own. This is, of course, based on my limited experience on the duel server, where I'm basically resigned to waiting for the better players to make mistakes (usually getting too cocky) before I can land a hit.
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Mlekce on November 12, 2012, 08:45:53 pm
I bought a 2h sword 2 days ago and after few gens playing as shielder i tried 2h.
Well 2h weapon are great for duel or 1 vs 1 fights,but when i entered siedge and eu1 it was pretty lame. When i had shield i was able to fight vs few ppl and have cover from ranged,as a 2h you only rely on your block. How can you block few ppl at once?
Usually i kill someone and then others gank me. Yes 2h have more reach and speed and dmg but they totally deserved it.
Not i single time i had chance to fight 1 vs 1,every time it was 1 vs 3 in best case.
On 1handers only stab need a fix,rest of the stuff is pretty ok.
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Dezilagel on November 12, 2012, 09:01:50 pm
I know that and I usually see it coming. Personally I die to this way too frequently because as I consider it super lame, I don't want to play with it, and end up not reacting as I should. Psychologic barriers :rolleyes:. I also don't like moving my camera as fast as some people force me to do this way, headaches -_- . I don't like that this forces me into a super dull direct attack cycle, at least for one round. If I feint or hold or do basically anything but attacking as fast as possible while turning my camera like a madman, I die. I'd like some choice on the matter. Finally, sometimes those people completely dissapear and pop in my back and that's just retarded. When people like Vibe or Cyber kill me, it's because they bait me into making an attack without actually having the time to complete it before they hit me, and that's the way I kill people too, although with less success.

From an objective point of view now, way too many players only rely on that cheap move to get kills. I will not throw names but really if you watch people playing it's evident they can hardly do anything else. Learn to block, get a long and damaging weapon and voila. Especially considering that player collisions should not be that glitchy in the first place, it's way too easy to pull off.

Well then. If the 'objective' (why do people throw that word around like it's candy?) point of view is that a ton of players use that 'cheap' (again, highly subjective) way to kill people, then learning to punish that trick seems to be the solution no?

Just because you're held back by your own psyche doesn't mean that everyone else is. And having a choice in the matter...? That's just ridiculous. And besides you do have a choice in this particular scenario:

1. Leftswing for a free hit (10 points!). A free hit on the guy, very good considering how adept people are at blocking nowadays (now that's what I would maybe call an 'objective' observation)

2. Block. No harm done to either side.

3.  Fuck up and get hit. What it says on the tin.

One thing that does change my outlook on this scenario from "completely normal" to "lame as shit" though is if the guy's randoming. But judging from your previous posts I assume he's not.

Don't get me wrong. I get killed in stupid ways a ton to. But it's pretty easy to see when it's bullshit and when it's not. If the guy's outmaneuvering you and tricking you into attacking when you shouldn't then it's not bullshit imo, no matter how hard a time you have countering it.
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Turkhammer on November 12, 2012, 09:06:10 pm

. Yes 2h have more reach and speed and dmg but they totally deserved it.


Why do they deserve it?  I think they (and Mauls) should be further nerfed to account for fatigue and the weight of their weapons.
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Osiris on November 12, 2012, 09:09:19 pm
because the people who like to play more historically accurate chars are outnumberd by the legions of 2h star wars fans :D
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Mlekce on November 12, 2012, 09:14:37 pm
Why do they deserve it?  I think they (and Mauls) should be further nerfed to account for fatigue and the weight of their weapons.
It is much harder to play as melee blocker then with shield.
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Leshma on November 12, 2012, 09:18:40 pm
We're obviously discussing 1h no shield...

No more nerfs please, buff one handed swords if needed but no more nerfs.

I think that sligtly different stats for one handed weapons with/without shield could make things right.
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: ednos on November 12, 2012, 09:24:24 pm
How can you block few ppl at once?

It's hard at first, but you'll get the hang of it. Players rarely, if ever, coordinate their strikes, and for some reason they often end up 2*pi/n out of phase--maybe they love rhythm--and with not much room for more than three players (n=3), there's plenty of time--especially when you consider that the guy in the middle can only stab or swing overhead, and occasionally the same is true for the edge players. (This is one reason I prefer to fight alongside a wall or fence if I'm caught defending against more than one person.) If you're lucky and they hit each other--you can usually see this coming before the hit actually lands--your gamble for smacking one of them is actually pretty safe. This is, to me, the primary advantage of the speed of the two-handed stab when you're in group fights.

The major exception to the phase delay is a large group of enemies chasing you because you are separated from your group. (Perhaps they have already gone to hell, and you are the last one standing.) Then the enemies tend to swing wildly and without regard for teammates' well-being.
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Gurnisson on November 12, 2012, 09:27:02 pm
One-handers that can't be used with a shield that are slightly better stat-wise? More reason for players with side-arms to fight, more of a reason to go 1h without shield. Or maybe not, maybe not the best idea for balance. :P
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Lannistark on November 12, 2012, 09:27:47 pm
Was 1h no shield for just one gen. My conclusions drawn upon this time are: you are always at a disadvantage, you need to be concentrated to beat your opponent, he can allow himself mistakes whereas you cannot, most enjoyable time I've had playing this mod.
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Osiris on November 12, 2012, 09:28:11 pm
1h should imo have a far more realistic stab :D the retarded stab animation now looks stupid ^^. Give us a sexy underarm stab :D makes it harder to see and looks better with da shield
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Teeth on November 12, 2012, 09:42:35 pm
If you think the right swing is a con of the class you should play it some more. Right swing = best swing.

1h without a shield is in a fine place balance wise, don't make it a class for the masses.
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: BlindGuy on November 12, 2012, 09:53:19 pm
Im with teeth: 1hander is fine class. I am currently playing 1hander with 6 shield skill, and I bring a light crappy shield: once into a fight I chuck the shield onto my back to fight 1Handed. I realise this nerfs me alot, BUT I can use the shield to chase those pesky ranged AND chamber couch lances. Also, 1handed blunt weapon knockdown is THE most satisfying combo: Knock em down, quick overhead followed by kick and another overhead: if they survive THAT then damn they stacked a lot of IF :D

You just gotta bring a little 1handed sword sometimes if you got too many enemy ninjas: when they try for katana spam and you spam them instead, nice leftswing into their black hood, that feels good.

Being 1hander also leaves you plenty of slots open if you need to bring a situational weapon, like a longspear or a crossbow.
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Dexxtaa on November 12, 2012, 09:57:54 pm
1.) Stylish and elegant look of play makes me think of the old Hollywood movie dueling sequences.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Oh sorry. This is Hong Kong.
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Osiris on November 12, 2012, 10:15:22 pm
teeth is right :D most of my attacks are overhead or right swings
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: [Ant] on November 12, 2012, 10:16:30 pm
I hate to say but the advantages of 1H no shield are substantial. I am a dedicated 1H shield using piss weak shields so I use 1H no shield a fair bit. :)


----Feints are harder to follow left to right attack and overhead look similar.

----Most air reach in the game by far

----High damage Eureken consistantly 2 hit my brother Owens using an elite scim. He wears 42 head armour and 41 body has 24 str and 5 IF.

----you wont hit your allies

----you can rotate your body more quickly than any other players

----you can double hit polearm users easily

----light weight and low str requirement you can be the fastest warrior on the field and still use a 35 cut weapon!

----you dont need to dedicate 1H is effective from about 100wpf so with a few points in WM a crossbow is easy to pull off.

----1 slot weapons (see above)

----wide range of balanced weapons

----easy chambers

----The option of a shield is always there
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: TurmoilTom on November 12, 2012, 10:28:47 pm
I hate to say but the advantages of 1H no shield are substantial. I am a dedicated 1H shield using piss weak shields so I use 1H no shield a fair bit. :)

----you wont hit your opponents

 :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Kafein on November 12, 2012, 10:39:47 pm
----you wont hit your opponents

Thumbs up for truth !
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Kafein on November 12, 2012, 10:46:48 pm
If you think the right swing is a con of the class you should play it some more. Right swing = best swing.

I like the right swing because it has a good reach bonus a wide active angle, but it's still slow and very weak to early animation glances. As shielders have the worst footwork of all classes, countering someone facehug circling you to the right can be a pain, because basically in that situation the right swing is useless.

So yeah, as a 1h you can sometimes find yourself in a situation where the right swing is nice, but in the general case, it's more of a con because other people trying to kill you can use this weakness on purpose whenever they want.


edit : damned doublepost
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: San on November 12, 2012, 10:47:27 pm
----Most air reach in the game by far


Will I be able to slam dunk my opponent?
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: [Ant] on November 12, 2012, 11:04:40 pm
I dont even.


hahahahahahhahahahghahahahahah its early here in Australia ok.


sometimes (often) an opponent will think he has evaded an attack he hasn't and gets chopped. website k/d of 1.2 at start of level 27
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Bjord on November 12, 2012, 11:07:54 pm
I was the best swashbuckler, now I am the best Longsworder.

Come at me, bros. 8-)
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Kafein on November 12, 2012, 11:12:01 pm
I dont even.


hahahahahahhahahahghahahahahah its early here in Australia ok.


sometimes (often) an opponent will think he has evaded an attack he hasn't and gets chopped. website k/d of 1.2 at start of level 27

I got 1:1.3 bro. Admittedly I only played battle when I started this gen and a round or two from time to time.
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: camperus on November 13, 2012, 12:06:23 am
1h no shield gives u valor magnet on siegue  :lol:
Seriously im getting rich with my alt at eu2  8-)
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Taser on November 13, 2012, 12:36:16 am
1h no shield is the most fun I've had on this mod. I also have fun with shield as well but only when I'm fighting a group solo. 1h no shield is always fun (except when you're targeted by range, that sucks), especially when you take a terrible weapon like a wooden stick and beat a plate user with it. Its hilarious.
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Vodner on November 13, 2012, 12:42:05 am
Playing the occasional bout of 1h with no shield (especially in cloth armor) is probably the best way to keep yourself from getting lazy at the game.
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Formless on November 13, 2012, 01:51:10 am
If you think the right swing is a con of the class you should play it some more. Right swing = best swing.

1h without a shield is in a fine place balance wise, don't make it a class for the masses.

I love how you guys took 2 things from that WHOLE post and keep bashing me with them.  To respond.

I disagree, my experience with 1hand no shield is extensive you would be hard pressed to find many players with more time on that build then me.  Try it a bit more against good agi 2 hand users and you will notice how overhead and right hand swing leave you open to counter attacks. 

RIGHT HAND SWING.

The  2 hand reach, speed and animation married to a guy who knows how to move his char will leave you open to be hit when you throw the right hand swing.  You have to be careful when you throw the right hand swing, you simply cannot just throw it and not worry about your opponents relative position like a 2 hander can.  You have to keep your position and your opponents relative position in mind when you use the right hand swing.  Its another thing you have to keep in mind that a 2 hander simply does not have to worry about, that is why the right hand swing is a con.  Sure it does give you extended reach, which is nice but that reach is no where near a 2 hander so really no big deal there.  The slight delay however is a killer it leaves you vulnerable against a good 2hander.

OVERHEAD.

Almost same deal as the right hand swing.  You have to be careful when you throw it.  Against a guy who uses good lateral movement you chances of landing it are 50/50.  When you throw it you leave yourself open.  Against an "S" key hero it will work, but fight someone who is good at moving side to side and they can take advantage of it.  That is why I don't throw overhead often.


P.S

I would actually love to see a bonus given for 1 hand no shield, that was a great idea.
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Teeth on November 13, 2012, 02:08:27 am
The  2 hand reach, speed and animation married to a guy who knows how to move his char will leave you open to be hit when you throw the right hand swing.  You have to be careful when you throw the right hand swing, you simply cannot just throw it and not worry about your opponents relative position like a 2 hander can.  You have to keep your position and your opponents relative position in mind when you use the right hand swing.  Its another thing you have to keep in mind that a 2 hander simply does not have to worry about, that is why the right hand swing is a con.  Sure it does give you extended reach, which is nice but that reach is no where near a 2 hander so really no big deal there.  The slight delay however is a killer it leaves you vulnerable against a good 2hander.
I am not sure what 1h you use, but with the 100+ 1h, which seem an obvious choice for 1h no shield, your right swing has to ability to play the range game against twohanders. Exactly because of this slight delay, you can use your movement to get amazing reach with the rightswing. It has about 120 comparative 2h reach, but it greatly depends on your movement. Also, it is not at all that slow. You can actually hit it decently early in the animation, nothing like a leftswing, but pretty fast. You just need to use your movement and turning to swing right.

When talking battle, reach is of the utmost importance. Maybe you're NA where lone wolves seem more common, but in EU there is barely any 1 vs 1 fights in battle, it is always groups vs groups. Which is where the rightswing is easily the best swing, because it gives you a change to deal damage without hugging your opponent. Ofcourse in a duel the leftswing, overhead and stab all come in handy, but you use that rightswing the most.

That said, on battle 1h without shield is not the best but viable to say the least. I was able to maintain a k/d only 0.4 away from my longspear build now, arguably one of the strongest battle weapons. In siege and duel though, 1h without shield measures up to any other class and any buff would make it too strong.

I did one full 1h without shield gen and leveled one from 1 to almost 33 later on. I have duelled tons of 2h and never was afraid to rightswing in those duels.
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on November 13, 2012, 12:25:13 pm
isnt 1h supposed to be with shield. if you use only one half of the granted weaponry thats your problem
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: BlindGuy on November 13, 2012, 01:06:10 pm
Warspear is only good with shield too huh?


No, 1hander is a good class, but shielder is a different class. Shielder is a master of making enemy numbers work against them, forming a decent fighting line on a obstacle such as a narrow bridge, facehugging longrange weapons so they cannot make the most of their gear.

1hander no shield is a different class, an assasin, fast to punish enemy mistakes, good at capitalising on a succesful attack and with enough damage to speed to take down most others: sometimes too early in your build you can be easily bullied by armour crutchers, but in that case just grab a blunt: left seldom bounces off, and if the enemy falls you can get 2 hits in no problem, and easiest to get a free kick on the guy since you are already close to him, and we all know: kick a guy and you get another free hit, if its another knockdown your laughing all the way to a multi :D
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on November 13, 2012, 01:44:15 pm
1hander no shield is a different class, an assasin, fast to punish enemy mistakes, good at capitalising on a succesful attack and with enough damage to speed to take down most others: sometimes too early in your build you can be easily bullied by armour crutchers, but in that case just grab a blunt: left seldom bounces off, and if the enemy falls you can get 2 hits in no problem, and easiest to get a free kick on the guy since you are already close to him, and we all know: kick a guy and you get another free hit, if its another knockdown your laughing all the way to a multi :D

well that sounds great actually, no need to improve anything for 1h no shield
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: BlindGuy on November 13, 2012, 02:00:18 pm
If they did it would it make it OP and it would only be temporary untill its gets nerfed hard.
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Kafein on November 13, 2012, 05:06:08 pm
If they did it would it make it OP and it would only be temporary untill its gets nerfed hard.

This. 1h no shield needs to be realm of the l33t. There's a demand for a melee "class" designed to show others how pro you are. This demand is clearly not as big as that for showing how many kills you can get with a EZ mode setup, but it exists.
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: rustyspoon on November 13, 2012, 11:01:02 pm
I decided to hijack this thread and turn it into a love letter for 1-handers.

You can tell that when the original developers worked on this game, they put the most thought into the 1-handed playstyle.

1-handed animations are drastically different than both poles and 2h. 2h has good animations that go at a relatively constant speed. Poles have a fast, short thrust and a fast right swing, but everything else is kinda "meh".

1-hand animations have a slow chamber, but a lightning-fast swing. They have a short, fast left swing that often hits the head, and a long right swing that is good at taking people by surprise. Both the overhead and the stab originate from the right side of the player model. Because of that, each 1-handed attack has a better side to be attacking from. It's not some bullshit, cookie-cutter animations. You need to know where the enemy is in relation to you, which way they are moving and which way you should move in order to select the best attack for each situation. There are pros and cons for each attack depending on a million different factors. When you really get into 1-handers, you realise that there is much more depth than with 2-handers & poles.

Shields add another layer. For some situations they are great, for some they are terrible. When dueling, you're better off without a shield as shields telegraph your attacks. When fighting a shield breaker it's also good to put it away since the stun from getting your shield broken sucks. Not to mention the fact that they slow you down a hell of a lot. Also, depending on what shield you have and the strength/weapon of your opponent, you can even get shield stunned. However, shields are great utility items. They're great for blocking hits for teammates, for pushing through held points on siege, blocking ranged, blocking multiple people at once, etc. Shields themselves could use a bit of diversity, but I doubt that will ever happen.

Now if you look at 1-h weapons, they are the most balanced set of weapons in the entire game. Once you get past the peasant weapons, you can make a valid argument for pretty much any weapon in the set. Each one has its pros and cons.

If you're fighting with or without a shield, there's just so much more that goes into it than with any other weapon type. That's probably why I've stuck with it for so long. I could go 2h & crossbow and min/max my character to hell, or I could play a fun, interesting class with almost limitless depth.

Yeah, 1h is the best.
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Lannistark on November 14, 2012, 06:50:40 pm
Just don't make it for the masses. It would lose all it's fun  :wink:
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Osiris on November 14, 2012, 08:35:37 pm
it can be pretty fun to wear very little armour and just run around with a 1h weapon :D
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Byrdi on November 15, 2012, 10:28:37 am
I was the best swashbuckler, now I am the best Longsworder.

Come at me, bros. 8-)

Good for you that I called my self a 1h no shield and not swashbuckler. And that I am using a Heavy Bastard Sword :D

Also, there is no need to buff (or nerf) 1h. It is very effective and you can easily go lightweight gear 1h hybrid or dedicated no shielder and perform as well as other classes.

And 1h no shield is great for duels. Dont know whoever said otherwise, but he is rather ignorant.
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Kajia on November 15, 2012, 03:18:06 pm
I mostly agree with the OP.

Right to left is slow so you have to be careful using it.
I found that many don't expect its relatively long reach though. 2h- and polearm-users always seem kinda surprised when I hit them with the tip of my sword in the face.

I also wanted to point out that 1handers without shield rely HEAVILY on good footwork. you can't just spam somebody with a longer reach than you have.
I personally am not the best blocker too, or at least I am a bit too slow to keep up with all the feints or faster weapons (miadao, katana), so I always try to stay away and use my own feinting, a good save distance and a general calm attitude to lure them into believing I'm helpless. then I hit with 7ps and hold left-swing attacks, or a fast right-swing, while turning into the swing = they often don't know what hit them. speed is not all that matters, timing is, I guess.

my 2 cents.
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: ThePoopy on November 15, 2012, 03:39:45 pm
most underrated class
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Casimir on November 15, 2012, 04:59:21 pm
2h cav is far more underrated.
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Lannistark on November 15, 2012, 05:23:27 pm
2h cav feels like an old bear-drunk bard singing: slow and heavy
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: dreadnok on November 15, 2012, 05:42:11 pm
Right hand swing outreaches its swing on any weapon. Your just not expecting it from a 1h. Also overheads with 2 are atrociously out of range. The great maul overhead reaches so far its disturbing.
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: TheAppleSauceMan on November 15, 2012, 05:42:53 pm
I decided to hijack this thread and turn it into a love letter for 1-handers.

You can tell that when the original developers worked on this game, they put the most thought into the 1-handed playstyle.

1-handed animations are drastically different than both poles and 2h. 2h has good animations that go at a relatively constant speed. Poles have a fast, short thrust and a fast right swing, but everything else is kinda "meh".

1-hand animations have a slow chamber, but a lightning-fast swing. They have a short, fast left swing that often hits the head, and a long right swing that is good at taking people by surprise. Both the overhead and the stab originate from the right side of the player model. Because of that, each 1-handed attack has a better side to be attacking from. It's not some bullshit, cookie-cutter animations. You need to know where the enemy is in relation to you, which way they are moving and which way you should move in order to select the best attack for each situation. There are pros and cons for each attack depending on a million different factors. When you really get into 1-handers, you realise that there is much more depth than with 2-handers & poles.

Shields add another layer. For some situations they are great, for some they are terrible. When dueling, you're better off without a shield as shields telegraph your attacks. When fighting a shield breaker it's also good to put it away since the stun from getting your shield broken sucks. Not to mention the fact that they slow you down a hell of a lot. Also, depending on what shield you have and the strength/weapon of your opponent, you can even get shield stunned. However, shields are great utility items. They're great for blocking hits for teammates, for pushing through held points on siege, blocking ranged, blocking multiple people at once, etc. Shields themselves could use a bit of diversity, but I doubt that will ever happen.

Now if you look at 1-h weapons, they are the most balanced set of weapons in the entire game. Once you get past the peasant weapons, you can make a valid argument for pretty much any weapon in the set. Each one has its pros and cons.

If you're fighting with or without a shield, there's just so much more that goes into it than with any other weapon type. That's probably why I've stuck with it for so long. I could go 2h & crossbow and min/max my character to hell, or I could play a fun, interesting class with almost limitless depth.

Yeah, 1h is the best.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Taser on November 15, 2012, 11:37:33 pm
(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: TheAppleSauceMan on November 16, 2012, 05:21:14 am
(click to show/hide)

Proud of you for getting the reference.  8-)
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: Rage_Guy on November 16, 2012, 08:32:07 pm

----you wont hit your allies

Be careful when stabbing, if you have a mate really close at your right, you can accidently hit him.
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: duurrr on November 16, 2012, 11:38:16 pm
first of all, bouncing with a 1h is a player skill issue unless very low PS

second of all, 1h no shield is damn fun but it makes me tilt to get "2 hit" when i need 5hits on anyone but archer, i also run from tincan, because its just not worth it... miss 1 overhead out of the 10 i need to hit and then proceed to get 1 shot.

avoid situation that could be frustrating and it gets a lot better, i respecced to 2h recently but its just not that fun anymore :(
Title: Re: 1 hand no shield. Mostly Cons and some Pros.
Post by: owens on November 17, 2012, 01:21:51 pm
Polearm feels goofy and 2H is boring,

1H is the most fun but also the riskiest.

I love using the shortest, sharpest weapons possible the shorter and meaner a 1H the better.