cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Vodner on October 29, 2012, 07:04:05 pm

Title: War Spear / Red Tassel Spear Adjustment
Post by: Vodner on October 29, 2012, 07:04:05 pm
Prior to the removal of polestun, the war spear and red tassel spear were both competent weapons for 1v1 combat, as well as being decent for teamplay in battle. They were decent 1v1 because the low damage sideswings allowed for a followup stab on stun, and they were decent in battle because polearm stabs are a relatively safe attack to use near teammates.

Polestun was a terrible mechanic and I'm happy it's gone. That being said, without stun these spears are pretty much useless, except as hoplite weapons. I really think they could use an increase in sideswing damage to compensate for that loss of stun.
Title: Re: War Spear / Red Tassel Spear Adjustment
Post by: Jarlek on October 29, 2012, 07:29:07 pm
Personally I would prefer them to just become cheaper.

Kinda like the 2h axes. Not the best weapons, but very good for their price.

Right now the war spear costs a bit more than the longsword. That's just ridiculous.

Longsword:
(click to show/hide)

War spear:
(click to show/hide)

Also,
Morningstar:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: War Spear / Red Tassel Spear Adjustment
Post by: Kafein on October 29, 2012, 07:30:07 pm
The problem is not the weakness of the spears, but the OPness of the high tier polearms.
Title: Re: War Spear / Red Tassel Spear Adjustment
Post by: Tydeus on October 29, 2012, 07:30:56 pm
Personally I would prefer them to just become cheaper.

Also,
Morningstar:
(click to show/hide)
yeah, price is nothing but a joke in crpg, sadly.
Title: Re: War Spear / Red Tassel Spear Adjustment
Post by: Tydeus on October 29, 2012, 07:32:25 pm
The problem is not the weakness of the spears, but the OPness of the high tier polearms.
That would imply that the weaker spears are in a good spot, which I don't really think anyone would agree with. Use a war spear against a guy in plate armor, regardless of his weapon, you're at a significant disadvantage.
Title: Re: War Spear / Red Tassel Spear Adjustment
Post by: Gravoth_iii on October 29, 2012, 07:44:18 pm
A tad bit higher dmg on the thrust maybe, and a bit better side swings.. Nothing will make up for the lack of polestun though, was pretty important for spears in 1v1.

Also remove thrusts hitting earlier in animation, cant interrupt thrusts anymore when getting hugged. :/
Title: Re: War Spear / Red Tassel Spear Adjustment
Post by: bredeus on October 29, 2012, 08:00:54 pm
Since I remeber war spear got one speed nerf and one damage nerf in the past. Nowadays my mw warspear is as good as normal 2 years ago. With additional turn nerf isn't that easy to play anymore. I can only agree that this nerf was to make long polearms less deadly but they are still insta hitting opponents.
Title: Re: War Spear / Red Tassel Spear Adjustment
Post by: Vodner on October 29, 2012, 08:35:23 pm
The problem is not the weakness of the spears, but the OPness of the high tier polearms.
The absolute last thing I think when I take a longsword/SoW against a warspear user (of the very few who stubbornly keep using them) is 'this is a balanced fight'. What I actually think is 'I'm going to castor/chamber/range game every single time I see a sideswing, because I lose almost no health if I mess up or he holds'.
Title: Re: War Spear / Red Tassel Spear Adjustment
Post by: Pentecost on October 29, 2012, 10:41:42 pm
Saul: Is it only that they're weak for 1v1 now or that they're weak in general? I own a War Spear myself, and while, as you said, I find myself at a disadvantage whenever I try fighting someone that has a greatsword with it, I figured that was more due to the fact that I am still not very good with it at the moment. On the other hand, I've seen Malaclypse absolutely manhandle people with a ragged outfit and Red Tassel Spear before.  I'm sure you've seen it too. Does he count as one of the diehard fans you were talking about?
Title: Re: War Spear / Red Tassel Spear Adjustment
Post by: Jarlek on October 30, 2012, 12:48:00 am
Saul: Is it only that they're weak for 1v1 now or that they're weak in general? I own a War Spear myself, and while, as you said, I find myself at a disadvantage whenever I try fighting someone that has a greatsword with it, I figured that was more due to the fact that I am still not very good with it at the moment. On the other hand, I've seen Malaclypse absolutely manhandle people with a ragged outfit and Red Tassel Spear before.  I'm sure you've seen it too. Does he count as one of the diehard fans you were talking about?
A good player will beat a worse player even if he has a worse weapon.
Title: Re: War Spear / Red Tassel Spear Adjustment
Post by: Vodner on October 30, 2012, 02:55:39 am
Saul: Is it only that they're weak for 1v1 now or that they're weak in general? I own a War Spear myself, and while, as you said, I find myself at a disadvantage whenever I try fighting someone that has a greatsword with it, I figured that was more due to the fact that I am still not very good with it at the moment. On the other hand, I've seen Malaclypse absolutely manhandle people with a ragged outfit and Red Tassel Spear before.  I'm sure you've seen it too. Does he count as one of the diehard fans you were talking about?
That's less a matter of the red tassel being good, and more just a matter of Mala being good. He presumably uses it because he plays hoplite most of the time; if not for that, he would be far better served by a poleaxe, glaive, GLA, or bec. Even an iron staff would likely be a better choice.
Title: Re: War Spear / Red Tassel Spear Adjustment
Post by: spiritus on September 19, 2013, 01:09:39 pm
That would imply that the weaker spears are in a good spot, which I don't really think anyone would agree with. Use a war spear against a guy in plate armor, regardless of his weapon, you're at a significant disadvantage.
i used a warspear in the chaos battle against the plated people and got a 2kd!!!!!! just buff my babys peirce so i can 2 hit even higher armoured people :twisted:
Title: Re: War Spear / Red Tassel Spear Adjustment
Post by: spiritus on September 19, 2013, 01:11:05 pm
That's less a matter of the red tassel being good, and more just a matter of Mala being good. He presumably uses it because he plays hoplite most of the time; if not for that, he would be far better served by a poleaxe, glaive, GLA, or bec. Even an iron staff would likely be a better choice.
the warspear is a great weapon with an agi build you can spam and do tons of damage with the stabs with speed bonuses and kite people and skey etc people complain about me alot and its not becuase im an amazing player its becuase how good an agi warspear build is
Title: Re: War Spear / Red Tassel Spear Adjustment
Post by: Dezilagel on September 19, 2013, 01:27:55 pm
Title: Re: War Spear / Red Tassel Spear Adjustment
Post by: MURDERTRON on September 19, 2013, 06:00:11 pm
We'll the 2h stab animation is incredibly good (aka op). The pole stab animation is bad.  So if the spears forte is stabbing, but they have a bad animation, then you're better off with something that hits much easier but does less damage on stabs.  That said, nearly every 2h does more damage on swings too.  In fact, other than BigSandwich, you don't see many using the WarSpear.  And Mala is the only red tassel user.  Most pole arm users would rather use a 2d pole arm for a quicker stab, even if it's more expensive like the Ashwood.  However, I find the arguments in this thread a little weird.  I don't think top tier(cost) pole arms to be that great.  A pole axe only has 42cut or 29blunt on swings which is not impressive at all at +3.  Sure, the stab is good, but you're still dealing with a bad animation that isn't fast.  The other two pole axes suffer similar problems with different trade offs.  If anything, I find the Long Bardiche and the Long Hafted Spiked Mace to be much better despite their weak stabs.
Title: Re: War Spear / Red Tassel Spear Adjustment
Post by: Dezilagel on September 19, 2013, 07:02:18 pm
War Spear is an excellent weapon.

And how are the 2d poles any faster on their stabs?
Title: Re: War Spear / Red Tassel Spear Adjustment
Post by: Jarlek on September 19, 2013, 07:05:32 pm
Why are people suddenly necroing a year old thread?
Title: Re: War Spear / Red Tassel Spear Adjustment
Post by: Teeth on September 19, 2013, 09:52:41 pm
The absolute last thing I think when I take a longsword/SoW against a warspear user (of the very few who stubbornly keep using them) is 'this is a balanced fight'. What I actually think is 'I'm going to castor/chamber/range game every single time I see a sideswing, because I lose almost no health if I mess up or he holds'.
Dunno if you have noticed, but the spears have 150 reach. The speed/length combo of these weapons still makes them extremely potent weapons. War spear is an amazing polearm to duel with, play that range game, unless you chamber the stab all the time I'll be able to swing at you.

That said, in duel they are awesome, in battle the low damage really grinds your gears. Buff both of their swings with like 3 blunt to make up for lost polestun. Even a quarterstaff has 21.

Why are people suddenly necroing a year old thread?
Lol didnt see.
Title: Re: War Spear / Red Tassel Spear Adjustment
Post by: San on September 19, 2013, 10:13:45 pm
Why are people suddenly necroing a year old thread?

He is spiritus. It's his job to bring life to dead threads.
Title: Re: War Spear / Red Tassel Spear Adjustment
Post by: Phew on September 23, 2013, 08:25:36 pm
Those war spear sideswings used by an agility player render 1, maybe 2 frames before they connect. It won't hurt much, but it usually won't glance.

Useable with shield+useable on horseback+rears horses+good stab damage+fast sideswings that don't glance=versatile weapon that's good in most situations.

Sure, dueling against a Longsword user you'll be at a disadvantage, but everyone is at a disadvantage dueling a Longsword user, so join the party. Of course the devs saw this and decided the solution was to buff the Longsword, so good luck getting them to improve spears or anything else.
Title: Re: War Spear / Red Tassel Spear Adjustment
Post by: Jona on September 24, 2013, 02:31:49 pm
Those war spear sideswings used by an agility player render 1, maybe 2 frames before they connect. It won't hurt much, but it usually won't glance.

Useable with shield+useable on horseback+rears horses+good stab damage+fast sideswings that don't glance=versatile weapon that's good in most situations.

Sure, dueling against a Longsword user you'll be at a disadvantage, but everyone is at a disadvantage dueling a Longsword user, so join the party. Of course the devs saw this and decided the solution was to buff the Longsword, so good luck getting them to improve spears or anything else.

I was actually quite surprised when waiting for a strat battle I was able to absolutely own a well known longsword disciple by picking up a MW warspear... first time using one, and I was on my not-duel-friendly hoplite character as well. I instantly noticed that I could hit him 3 times in a row without him even getting a chance to block just from good footwork and the fact that it hits a couple frames early (even with my slow 21-15 build). Not to mention that the sideswings, while being 'weak' are super fast considering their reach is 150. I say the 2 spears are quite good weapons, and speaking from experience, their sideswings can deal a heck of a lot of damage when hitting an agi build, armor or not (since they deal blunt).

Using a war spear feels like using a buffed staff... its just longer and has a far better stab. It doesn't even feel slower since the length accommodates.
Title: Re: War Spear / Red Tassel Spear Adjustment
Post by: Lord_Bernie_of_Voodoo on September 24, 2013, 04:55:52 pm
The Warspear statistics are very deceptive. I've been able to fight off groups of 3 or more while my shield is sheathed (not groups of peasants.) It's 95 speed statistic still surprises me. It's one of the "snappiest" weapons in the game - capable of keeping up with twohand spammers.

It's swing damage is pretty weak. My +3 WarSpear only does 22 blunt, but it can do the job. I liked Jarlek's suggestion on making it cheaper - but, it's swing could use a buff. Maybe, 1-3 more damage points.
Title: Re: War Spear / Red Tassel Spear Adjustment
Post by: Phew on September 24, 2013, 05:25:44 pm
It's swing damage is pretty weak. My +3 WarSpear only does 22 blunt, but it can do the job. I liked Jarlek's suggestion on making it cheaper - but, it's swing could use a buff. Maybe, 1-3 more damage points.

22blunt is better than it sounds; 22 blunt does about the same damage to 60 armor as 32 cut. People that complain about the Side Sword and other stabby 1h swords need to remember that their sideswings are on par with a war spear, and the stab has a shorter range (compared to hoplite mode war spear) and doesn't rear horses.
Title: Re: War Spear / Red Tassel Spear Adjustment
Post by: Vodner on September 24, 2013, 07:08:46 pm
I believe the warspear already received a slight sideswing damage boost some time between me posting this thread and now. Unfortunately, the sideswing damage is low enough that there is a world of difference between a +3 warspear, and an unloomed one.